Defense since 2017

[RiverDog]

I did some research to support a discussion in another forum about our defense and how it's changed from the glory days of the Legion of Boom.

In 2010, Pete's first year when he completely turned over the roster in a massive rebuild, our defense as measured by total yards was ranked 27th. Starting in 2011 and through the 2016 regular season, our defense was ranked 9th, 4th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 5th. This coincides with the best period of Seahawk football our franchise has ever seen.

2017 marked a turning point. It was the first time since Pete's inaugural season that our defense slid out of the top 10, finishing the season ranked 11th. Since then and starting in 2018, our defense has been ranked 16th, 26th, 22nd, 28th, and last season was ranked 26th. That's not a rousing endorsement for a coach who is supposed to be the best defensive mind in his era.

Stats don't win football games, but they do tell a story, and the story these numbers tell us is that a very good defense is critical to the success of our team. Pete Ball requires it to win championships. If a 9-8, one and done in the playoffs effort is all it takes to float your boat, then a 26th ranked defense will suffice.

It also represents my personal frustration, why my patience has worn thin, why I am no longer on the Pete Carroll bandwagon, and why I have in the past lobbied for his removal as HC. How much longer must I hold my peace? How long does Pete get a pass from the rest of you?

[tarlhawk]

My honest reply is as a fan Pete will always get a "pass" from me. I appreciate becoming a Seahawk fan and even though I lived in the NW for awhile it wasn't until Pete and John Schneider arrived in 2010 did I actually come onboard. There are many aspects (many are complicated ...less so simple as total yards allowed) that would take "going in the weeds" to fairly assess why success at the highest levels in the NFL is hard to sustain.

My own appreciation stems from the satisfaction of enjoying each game feeling the game's outcome is never a foregone conclusion and the way Pete motivates his players to play at a high level consistently. I always feel with Pete at the helm our team is always in the game...with many close games going either way but mostly in our favor. I think he surrounds our team with support from a sustained culture of competition and grit/character. Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

I did some research to support a discussion in another forum about our defense and how it's changed from the glory days of the Legion of Boom.

In 2010, Pete's first year when he completely turned over the roster in a massive rebuild, our defense as measured by total yards was ranked 27th. Starting in 2011 and through the 2016 regular season, our defense was ranked 9th, 4th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 5th. This coincides with the best period of Seahawk football our franchise has ever seen.

2017 marked a turning point. It was the first time since Pete's inaugural season that our defense slid out of the top 10, finishing the season ranked 11th. Since then and starting in 2018, our defense has been ranked 16th, 26th, 22nd, 28th, and last season was ranked 26th. That's not a rousing endorsement for a coach who is supposed to be the best defensive mind in his era.

Stats don't win football games, but they do tell a story, and the story these numbers tell us is that a very good defense is critical to the success of our team. Pete Ball requires it to win championships. If a 9-8, one and done in the playoffs effort is all it takes to float your boat, then a 26th ranked defense will suffice.

It also represents my personal frustration, why my patience has worn thin, why I am no longer on the Pete Carroll bandwagon, and why I have in the past lobbied for his removal as HC. How much longer must I hold my peace? How long does Pete get a pass from the rest of you?

We're not playing Peteball Offense any more. Unless he reins it in this year, but last year showed us how much it has changed the last 2 years and given us a glimpse of what it can be long term.
It's been an amazing transition for a HC who had built a system based on his beliefs to radically change it to the point it's almost the opposite of how we won the SB and got back there the 2nd time.
When Pete got here he was asked what he thought the Offense would look like and he said something along the lines of we are going to pound the rock and throw for chunk yardage. That's Peteball and unfortunately there was no creativity in how the runs were designed or how varied the pass routes were. It was to the point that there were comments from our players that as soon as they lined up the opposing Defense would be shouting out what play was coming. Now we have the opportunity to run anywhere from 6 to 9 plays off of the same formation. It's the total opposite of Peteball.

[RiverDog]

My honest reply is as a fan Pete will always get a "pass" from me. I appreciate becoming a Seahawk fan and even though I lived in the NW for awhile it wasn't until Pete and John Schneider arrived in 2010 did I actually come onboard. There are many aspects (many are complicated ...less so simple as total yards allowed) that would take "going in the weeds" to fairly assess why success at the highest levels in the NFL is hard to sustain.

My own appreciation stems from the satisfaction of enjoying each game feeling the game's outcome is never a foregone conclusion and the way Pete motivates his players to play at a high level consistently. I always feel with Pete at the helm our team is always in the game...with many close games going either way but mostly in our favor. I think he surrounds our team with support from a sustained culture of competition and grit/character. Go Hawks

I appreciate your honesty. Most people that perpetually excuse average or below average performance will make up some sort of justification for their acceptance.

I gave Pete a pass last season due mostly to his trading of Russell Wilson, of which I supported, and that I felt that he adapted a new philosophy in his draft that was a departure from past drafts. He seemed to prioritize the offensive line, of which I had been calling on us to do for several years, by using a top 10 selection and a 3rd round pick on two offensive tackles, neither one of which could be considered a 'reach' pick, and while I wasn't pleased with taking a running back as high as he did, it was a good value pick as Walker had fallen somewhat. The Woolen selection turned out to be the work of a genius. The draft class was the best that we have had in 10 years. I regarded last season as a rebuild, but we won more games than most people expected.

We'll see how I feel about this season as it progresses. I've pledged to keep an open mind, but I want to see some improvement on defense. For a borderline HOF coach with defense as his long suit to be putting out squads that are ranked in the bottom 1/3-1/4 of the league for 4 straight seasons and no top 10 defenses for 7 straight seasons is simply unacceptable. If he doesn't get this defense turned around soon, the only possible conclusion is that Pete has lost his way and must be thrown out with yesterday's newspaper.

[RiverDog]

We're not playing Peteball Offense any more. Unless he reins it in this year, but last year showed us how much it has changed the last 2 years and given us a glimpse of what it can be long term.
It's been an amazing transition for a HC who had built a system based on his beliefs to radically change it to the point it's almost the opposite of how we won the SB and got back there the 2nd time.
When Pete got here he was asked what he thought the Offense would look like and he said something along the lines of we are going to pound the rock and throw for chunk yardage. That's Peteball and unfortunately there was no creativity in how the runs were designed or how varied the pass routes were. It was to the point that there were comments from our players that as soon as they lined up the opposing Defense would be shouting out what play was coming. Now we have the opportunity to run anywhere from 6 to 9 plays off of the same formation. It's the total opposite of Peteball.

Call the offense what you want, but the numbers I posted are a very strong indication that in order for Pete Carroll-coached teams to succeed, he has to have a top 10 defense.

Even if it isn't Pete Carroll, a top 10 defense greatly increases a team's chance of competing for a championship. Take a look at last year's defensive rankings: The top ranked 49'ers and the 2nd ranked Eagles faced off in the NFCCG. The 6th ranked Bills were 13-3. Even the world champion Chiefs, with the top rated offense, were supported by the 11th ranked defense. Only the Bengals were successful with a middle of the road defense. No team made it out of the divisional round of the playoffs with a defense ranked in the bottom 50% of the league.

Top off his dismal record over the past 4 straight seasons with things like his trade for Adams, his reaching in the draft for players like LJ Collier, and what seems to me to be an act of desperation by throwing away his defensive book and going to a 3-4 can lead me to one conclusion: Pete's lost it.

I want to see results. This season.

[obiken]

Our defense was warmed over garbage against the run last year.

[Aseahawkfan]

Pete will always be my favorite Seahawks coach.

Even Pete teaches the "Always compete" mantra. He needs to take that to heart with the defense. He's not competitive because this defense is bad against the run. He seems to grasp that at this point and with Russ gone, he's no longer thinking they're one player away. Russ leaving seems to have cut the cord between Pete and the championship days. I think that has been good for Pete. So I'll give him and John time to do the rebuild. A few more years at least as long as I see things going in the right direction.

We're in year two of the rebuild from Russ leaving. So far things are looking up for talent. Now we'll see if they can make progress on the record.

[Old but Slow]

Part of the problem with the defense has been the difficulty finding the right defensive coordinator. I am sure that Hurtt is a great guy and a good defensive line coach, but he is one of Pete's guys, and as such is influenced by Pete's approach. Something is not working.

The additions to the D in this off season have been very good, with help at all levels of the defense, but whether they can use those players well is a question.

Pete was seen as a defensive guru a decade ago, but really, in my opinion, he just happen to use the right kind of D for the time, and he fell into a platoon of great players that carried the day. With time he was unable to adjust to the changes in the game as the offenses began to catch up to what the defenses were doing. Instead of innovating, the team has been groping. The approach of "lets try this" and then "lets try this other" is not productive.

Pete must be appreciated as a player's coach, with a positive attitude, and the ability of producing a great atmosphere. His coaching of defensive backs is legit, and he has put together some good offenses, and is a leader. But, is that enough?

For me? Time for Pete to retire to drive his wife crazy, and leave it to John to find a new head, and continue to build.

[RiverDog]

We're in year two of the rebuild from Russ leaving. So far things are looking up for talent. Now we'll see if they can make progress on the record.

Agreed about the offense, but we've been rebuilding the defense for the past 6 seasons. Pete's on his 3rd defensive coordinator since then.

[RiverDog]

For me? Time for Pete to retire to drive his wife crazy, and leave it to John to find a new head, and continue to build.

That would be my preferred option, perhaps the only one as I'm not sure that Jody has the stomach for firing a legendary head coach.

[Aseahawkfan]

Agreed about the offense, but we've been rebuilding the defense for the past 6 seasons. Pete's on his 3rd defensive coordinator since then.

Not how I see it. We've been trying to ride Russell to another championship with a bunch of band aids on defense trying to rely on Russ and a couple of amazing receivers to get it done. I haven't seen Pete really try to rebuild this team until Russ was gone.

What I saw before Russ was gone was a bunch of bad trades and drafting that found some good WRs, but wasn't particularly focused on defense. Just kept trying to get a running back and finding a piece here or there would be enough to let Russ do his magic.

That's gone now. He really is focused on a full rebuild, practically from the ground up.

[RiverDog]

Agreed about the offense, but we've been rebuilding the defense for the past 6 seasons. Pete's on his 3rd defensive coordinator since then.

Not how I see it. We've been trying to ride Russell to another championship with a bunch of band aids on defense trying to rely on Russ and a couple of amazing receivers to get it done. I haven't seen Pete really try to rebuild this team until Russ was gone.

What I saw before Russ was gone was a bunch of bad trades and drafting that found some good WRs, but wasn't particularly focused on defense. Just kept trying to get a running back and finding a piece here or there would be enough to let Russ do his magic.

That's gone now. He really is focused on a full rebuild, practically from the ground up.

It's pure speculation as to whether or not Pete considers us to be in a rebuild mode. He still talks like we're contenders.

[Aseahawkfan]

That would be my preferred option, perhaps the only one as I'm not sure that Jody has the stomach for firing a legendary head coach.

If you're not sure you can find better, why do it? Paul's gone. Paul you knew would find a great coach. Jody we're not sure could lure another amazing coach here.

[RiverDog]

That would be my preferred option, perhaps the only one as I'm not sure that Jody has the stomach for firing a legendary head coach.

If you're not sure you can find better, why do it? Paul's gone. Paul you knew would find a great coach. Jody we're not sure could lure another amazing coach here.

How many teams that changed coaches were "sure" that they could find one better? Like so many other things in life, it's a risk, and IMO a risk worth taking.

Subtract the years from 2011-16 out of Pete's record and tell me what you've got. Was 2017-22 an aberration that we can blame on an egotistical quarterback or was it the teams from 2011-16 that's the anomaly? Is it possible that Pete stumbled onto a unique combination of players, scheme, and competition that created his relatively short-lived success, and now that things have changed and those players are gone, it's left him without a fig leaf?

I'm not advocating a theory. I'm simply putting it out there as food for thought.

[jshawaii22]

Add multiple years of very poor drafting and trades that killed us to the 'coaches fault' list. This years crop of draft picks should determine if JS goes with Pete or not.
I agree with the issue with the DC. The most recent change to the 3-4 or other alternate defense has done for the defense what Tom Cable did for the offensive line.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's pure speculation as to whether or not Pete considers us to be in a rebuild mode. He still talks like we're contenders.

Doesn't matter what Pete says, it matters what Pete does. You can see from what Pete and John are doing we're in full rebuild mode starting from the ground up with another bridge QB.

I'm down for this rebuild so far. I like what I'm seeing. I'm hoping next year another stroke of magic drops and we find the next franchise QB while our defense is coming back togetehr.

[RiverDog]

It's pure speculation as to whether or not Pete considers us to be in a rebuild mode. He still talks like we're contenders.

Doesn't matter what Pete says, it matters what Pete does. You can see from what Pete and John are doing we're in full rebuild mode starting from the ground up with another bridge QB.

I'm down for this rebuild so far. I like what I'm seeing. I'm hoping next year another stroke of magic drops and we find the next franchise QB while our defense is coming back togetehr.

I agree, it matters what Pete does, and didn't do. Even though he had an opportunity, he didn't draft a QBOTF, a critical piece for a rebuild. Maybe he didn't like any of the ones available or thought that the cost to move up and get one was too steep, and he didn't trade down and put a draft pick in his pocket for his rebuild....or maybe he thinks he can win a SB with Geno. He's also prioritized WR's and RB's, positions we already had starting positions filled, rather than rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines.

So you can read his actions in several different ways depending on your point of view. You're reading his actions in a way that fits your perception. I'm not so sure.

[RiverDog]

Add multiple years of very poor drafting and trades that killed us to the 'coaches fault' list. This years crop of draft picks should determine if JS goes with Pete or not.

I agree with the issue with the DC. The most recent change to the 3-4 or other alternate defense has done for the defense what Tom Cable did for the offensive line.

The defense is the most concerning thing about Pete, which is why I started the thread. He trades the farm for a player then doesn't have a plan on how to use him. He's on his 3rd DC in the past 8 years. He's essentially admitted that his system no longer works when he throws away the 4-3 scheme. He hasn't fielded a top 10 defense for 7 years and has 4 straight years of defenses ranked in the bottom 1/3-1/4 of the league. You can't blame that on Russell Wilson.

And now, I'm told that I need to be patient because we're in a rebuild.

[NorthHawk]

I think that when you change systems there's going to be a rebuild aspect to that as you change out scheme fits. It seems that a number of teams are trying to go to the Vic Fangio style of 3-4 Defense but in many cases when some type of scheme becomes popular it isn't successfully duplicated by followers. We saw teams trying to duplicate the LoB after our success with varying degrees as an example.
With the Fangio defenses, he's been successful almost everywhere he's gone but other teams don't seem to have had the same success. To me it suggests that it's the DC that's the key with Fangio making tweaks and subtle changes as the games and season wears on. Some coaches are successful not because of the scheme they run, but who they are and how they see player fits and the opposing offenses. That part can't be duplicated, so it may be a 50/50 chance that we will be one of those teams that benefit from the change.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Two big things stick out to me on the defensive regression:

1. Run stopping.
2. Adjusting coverage assignments.

Run stopping is pretty obvious. Haven't had the line and linebacker talent to get this right again. Potentially better this year, but I'd call it middling at best.

By coverage assignments, I mean the communication and recognition amongst the defense. Asea commented on this in another thread months ago, but I never fully appreciate the amount of non-verbal adjustments the LOB made during plays. The crossing routes that murdered the defense these last couple of years were a rarity against Sherman, Kam, Thomas, Wagner, and KJ. They just knew what they had to do to cover that stuff by recognition alone. The guys now seem to adhere strictly to the pre-snap assignment. Pete's got to bring the level of awareness back to the good ole days.

[NorthHawk]

That wealth of talent allowed them to use somewhat simpler defenses and the results were that less communication was required and much success was achieved. That doesn’t mean they didn’t need to communicate but that there were fewer adjustments required because for the most part the defensive players were better than their opponents or at least played together better.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I'm talking about non-verbal adjustments made after the snap as the play develops. The mishaps of last season where man coverage followed their assignments to a T instead of switching or zone coverage allowed themselves to drift to far witha receiver is what led to getting abused by crossing routes. I'm sure they try to talk and signal to each other as much as they can out there, but I imagine things move so quickly that unless they recognize what's happening and act immediately, then they'll get burned. For sure, the LOB was incredibly talented, so they made this look easy or it came easy to them. Pete has to get these guys into that same ballpark.

[Aseahawkfan]

As far as I could tell, that defense worked as well as it did because everyone was good at their assignments.

Sherman could handle his side of the field alone.
Earl came over the top to help the opposite corner to Sherm as well as the deep middle.
Kam, KJ, Bobby, and the SLB could handle the middle and sides against the run, screens, and TEs.
Mebane held against the run.
Bennett and Avril could play run or pass.
Other fat guy had to do a very simple hold of his lane.

That defense had fewer weak players to attack.

The NFL is a talent on talent league. If you have weak talent at even a few positions, you're going to have problems. Scheme is secondary to talent. Pete hasn't had the talent he had during the LoB days. Pete and John really let the D-line fall off a cliff and that is a huge mistake in the current NFL. A great secondary helps, but if you want to be a great defense you need a great D-line to get to the QB and stop the run. If your D-line can't do those two things, you won't be good.

As good as Geno has been, he's not a big time Mahomes level talent to make our skill positions sing.

I'm optimistic as it seems we're getting back to a much higher level of talent. We need a handful of pieces that are far easier to find with later round picks like LBs and some middle line fat boys.

About all we need right now to be right back in it is is a few good LBs, a few good fat boys like a Mebane, and a top QB.

[RiverDog]

About all we need right now to be right back in it is is a few good LBs, a few good fat boys like a Mebane, and a top QB.

Unless you're convinced that Olu or Evan Brown are our long-term solutions, we also need some offensive linemen.

[NorthHawk]

We always need OL. It's what our FO has always missed on.

[RiverDog]

We always need OL. It's what our FO has always missed on.

True. When it comes to the offensive line, they are Rodney Dangerfield in Pete's world. They don't get any respect.

[Aseahawkfan]

Unless you're convinced that Olu or Evan Brown are our long-term solutions, we also need some offensive linemen.

Our offense did fine without good interior lineman. They are nice to have, but serviceable guys will get it done with the talent we have at the skill positions.

We went 9 and 8 with a garbage defense. Defense is even middle of the pack, we win 11. If the defense gets shored up even more, we move into the 12 plus range likely all things being equal.

[RiverDog]

Unless you're convinced that Olu or Evan Brown are our long-term solutions, we also need some offensive linemen.

Our offense did fine without good interior lineman. They are nice to have, but serviceable guys will get it done with the talent we have at the skill positions.

We went 9 and 8 with a garbage defense. Defense is even middle of the pack, we win 11. If the defense gets shored up even more, we move into the 12 plus range likely all things being equal.

Winning 11 games isn't the goal. We won 12 games on a 16 game schedule in 2020 and were one and done in the playoffs, suffering one of the worst playoff defeats in franchise history. The 12 wins turned out to be fool's gold. The goal is being SB competitive again.

Unless we see a LOB-like improvement in our defense, our offense is going to have to be more consistent, particularly in the running game, if we intend to be SB contenders. Last season, we had 9 games where our top RB gained less than 70 yards, 4 of which they gained less than 30. Walker gained 17 yards on 10 carries vs. the Bucs, one of the worst rushing performances in franchise history, then followed that up with 26 yards on 14 carries in the following game vs. the Raiders.

Geno is going to have to have at least a decent running game in order to succeed, and that means an improvement in our offensive line. Last season, Blythe graded out as one of the worst centers in the league, Jackson one of the worst guards. Those two spots are weak links.

[Aseahawkfan]

Winning 11 games isn't the goal. We won 12 games on a 16 game schedule in 2020 and were one and done in the playoffs, suffering one of the worst playoff defeats in franchise history. The 12 wins turned out to be fool's gold. The goal is being SB competitive again.

Unless we see a LOB-like improvement in our defense, our offense is going to have to be more consistent, particularly in the running game, if we intend to be SB contenders. Last season, we had 9 games where our top RB gained less than 70 yards, 4 of which they gained less than 30. Walker gained 17 yards on 10 carries vs. the Bucs, one of the worst rushing performances in franchise history, then followed that up with 26 yards on 14 carries in the following game vs. the Raiders.

Geno is going to have to have at least a decent running game in order to succeed, and that means an improvement in our offensive line. Last season, Blythe graded out as one of the worst centers in the league, Jackson one of the worst guards. Those two spots are weak links.

You been watching this team since they were created. No coach and GM combination has ever created a team more Super Bowl competitive than we have been under Pete and John even when losing in the playoffs.

That's why when you ask me if I want to go with a new coach and I'm not particularly excited to do so it's because no other coach has been as successful as Pete at making us competitive. Getting to the playoffs is the first step in being Super Bowl competitive and Pete's gotten us to the playoffs 10 of 13 years he's been head coaching including two trips to the big game and one win.

Holmgren got us to the playoffs 6 of 10 years with one visit to the Big Dance and a loss.

Knox got us there 4 or 9 years and no visit to the Big Dance.

Other than that, pretty dismal Seahawks showing. And you don't want a proven guy like Jim Harbaugh (seems most of Seattle doesn't). If we replaced Carroll with Harbaugh, then I'd be up for it because I think Crazy Jim if given time will get the SB win.

Other than Harbaugh, I don't see many coaches I want. I don't know that I trust Jody and the brain trust to replace Carroll with anyone worth hiring. Maybe they're out there or maybe we hire a guy who gets us nowhere and go through coaches for the next ten plus years doing nothing.

You say that's a risk you're willing to take. I wonder if 10 plus years of failing later you'd still be saying that.

Paul Allen always brought in proven winners. That proved to be a successful formula. Unless we're bringing in Jim Harbaugh who has taken a team to the Super Bowl with a fairly crap QB and almost won, then I'm not keen on hiring a new guy. I want a proven performer who is still hungry as well to get it done. I don't care if he's some crazy guy like Jim Harbaugh as long as he eats, sleeps, and dreams of winning the SB.

Though Carroll may be looking rusty, I still feel that the second Super Bowl loss eats at him like acid. He wants another ring. So I'm good to stay with him because at the very least I know he will take us to the playoffs more often than not. He needs a few more pieces to get back to the big game. This is a weak league right now, open for a team like Seattle to make a big push if they can just get a few more pieces I think they can get next year.

[RiverDog]

You been watching this team since they were created. No coach and GM combination has ever created a team more Super Bowl competitive than we have been under Pete and John even when losing in the playoffs.

That's why when you ask me if I want to go with a new coach and I'm not particularly excited to do so it's because no other coach has been as successful as Pete at making us competitive. Getting to the playoffs is the first step in being Super Bowl competitive and Pete's gotten us to the playoffs 10 of 13 years he's been head coaching including two trips to the big game and one win.

Holmgren got us to the playoffs 6 of 10 years with one visit to the Big Dance and a loss.

Knox got us there 4 or 9 years and no visit to the Big Dance.

Other than that, pretty dismal Seahawks showing. And you don't want a proven guy like Jim Harbaugh (seems most of Seattle doesn't). If we replaced Carroll with Harbaugh, then I'd be up for it because I think Crazy Jim if given time will get the SB win.

Other than Harbaugh, I don't see many coaches I want. I don't know that I trust Jody and the brain trust to replace Carroll with anyone worth hiring. Maybe they're out there or maybe we hire a guy who gets us nowhere and go through coaches for the next ten plus years doing nothing.

You say that's a risk you're willing to take. I wonder if 10 plus years of failing later you'd still be saying that.

Paul Allen always brought in proven winners. That proved to be a successful formula. Unless we're bringing in Jim Harbaugh who has taken a team to the Super Bowl with a fairly crap QB and almost won, then I'm not keen on hiring a new guy. I want a proven performer who is still hungry as well to get it done. I don't care if he's some crazy guy like Jim Harbaugh as long as he eats, sleeps, and dreams of winning the SB.

Though Carroll may be looking rusty, I still feel that the second Super Bowl loss eats at him like acid. He wants another ring. So I'm good to stay with him because at the very least I know he will take us to the playoffs more often than not. He needs a few more pieces to get back to the big game. This is a weak league right now, open for a team like Seattle to make a big push if they can just get a few more pieces I think they can get next year.

Everyone has their standards. If all it takes to float your boat is a .500ish record and one and done in the playoffs, then by all means, let's keep the current regime intact. But simply producing mediocre team after mediocre team isn't acceptable in my book. We've had just one playoff win in the last 8 years. That doesn't work for me. And you can't blame it all on Russell.

I fully understand the risks associated with a regime change, and I'm willing to take that risk. At this point, I'm not calling for a coaching change as I want to see how this season plays out. But I've lost my patience with Pete. Simply reciting his decade old achievements isn't a good enough argument for retaining him.

[NorthHawk]

Pete won us a SB and we can never take that away from him and I will always respect him for that, but he's also presided over a huge loss of talent since 2017 and that can't be ignored, either.
In the championship years, the Offense went through Marshawn Lynch and when he left the OL was exposed for being at best average and probably much less so. We ended up with winning seasons because of Russell Wilson being in his prime and winning games because of him. But they neglected the OL - or rather never figured out how to build one and along with bypassing super talented RBs in the draft, the emphasis was put on Wilson's shoulders to win the games. He did quite well considering he didn't have a consistent run game to support him.
On the other side of the ball, the Defense was allowed to slowly deteriorate into a shell of what it once was. Gone was the super talent accumulated in the mid to late rounds and never replaced, but the FO tried to plug holes by giving away draft picks for players that ended up spending 1 season here in an attempt to find the one missing piece. Unfortunately, there was a lot more than a single piece needed to complete the puzzle, and it took him a number of years to finally figure out that strategy wasn't working.
The last 2 drafts have given us some hope as some real good players have been added, but it remains to be seen if the scheme changes on Defense are going to work. We are going to find out if Pete really is all in with the 3-4 scheme or if he will make the change back to what he really knows and understands.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Agree with North. The Russel Wilson trade and the subsequent excellent drafts of last year and this year gave Pete and John a reprieve. They were successful because they built a team through the draft; they lost their way trying to patch up the team year after year with high profile FAs that cost too much draft capital. They hung on to this strategy for way too long.

As far as expectations, having been to the show three times and won one, I want more, of course. It's also very hard to get to the top at any level in any sport, so I want my team to be in it (i.e. make it to the post season) and then fight tooth and nail to make for as long as they can. If they get knocked out playing great football, then so be it. That's still a successful season in my book. What I don't like is seeing a woefully unprepared 12-4 team lose at home in the WC round. Just like I enjoyed that division round exit to the Falcons per Superbowl win, I enjoyed last season's loss to the 49ers in the WC, at least to the extent possible one can enjoy a loss. They were up by 2 at halftime against one of the best teams in the league; they just couldn't go the distance. They didn't quit which bodes well for this season. That's how you build a contender.

[RiverDog]

Agree with North. The Russel Wilson trade and the subsequent excellent drafts of last year and this year gave Pete and John a reprieve. They were successful because they built a team through the draft; they lost their way trying to patch up the team year after year with high profile FAs that cost too much draft capital. They hung on to this strategy for way too long.

Which is why I got off the fire Pete rant, or at least muted it somewhat. And I was very pleased with the results of the 2022 draft, that they finally seem to recognize the need on the offensive line, didn't reach for designer picks that no one else had on their boards, didn't make any player-for-draft pick trades or trade down past good talent as they have in the past. I'm less impressed with the 2023 draft, but I'll hold my peace until I see the on-field results.

I'm not advocating that we get rid of Pete now, nor am I issuing an ultimatum for specific results this season. I'm only saying that my patience has its limits, and that we can't continue on our current 7-8 year trend of mediocre teams indefinitely. Simply noting his accomplishments from what is becoming the distant past isn't a good enough justification for maintaining the status quo.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I'm not advocating that we get rid of Pete now, nor am I issuing an ultimatum for specific results this season. I'm only saying that my patience has its limits, and that we can't continue on our current 7-8 year trend of mediocre teams indefinitely. Simply noting his accomplishments from what is becoming the distant past isn't a good enough justification for maintaining the status quo.

Mos def. I couldn't agree more that resting on his laurels is not good enough.

[Aseahawkfan]

Everyone has their standards. If all it takes to float your boat is a .500ish record and one and done in the playoffs, then by all means, let's keep the current regime intact. But simply producing mediocre team after mediocre team isn't acceptable in my book. We've had just one playoff win in the last 8 years. That doesn't work for me. And you can't blame it all on Russell.

I fully understand the risks associated with a regime change, and I'm willing to take that risk. At this point, I'm not calling for a coaching change as I want to see how this season plays out. But I've lost my patience with Pete. Simply reciting his decade old achievements isn't a good enough argument for retaining him.

Don't pretend you have high standards. You tolerated Holmgren and Knox for years and both were far worse than Pete. You talk like your standards would even produce a better team which they don't. The only way to get it done is find a proven performer and give them time. You can try some new coach like McVay, but has he been better than Pete? He's got one ring too and a bunch of playoff appearances and done. Who else besides Belichick is better than Pete? Who? Name them?

What will you say if we change and we get 10 years of no playoffs or worse than what you're getting now? You going to be calling for coach's heads every year?

I really want to know if you call for the change and we suck for the next ten plus years, Jodi sells the team because she's not really interested in managing it as Pete was the only person making her interested, and the new ownership is some Clay whatever his name is like for the Sonics? I wonder what you'll say then.

You keep talking about "standards, standards, standards" but if the team is worse? Where you will be then? Calling for a new coach every year and becoming Cleveland or Houston? What are you standards? How do you manage a football team?

I know from a management perspective, unless you have something better lined up you don't make the change. I doubt you can ensure the next coach is better than Pete.

The only coach I would take right now I know of is Jim Harbaugh. I can't think of another college or pro coach I'd take over Carroll at this moment. Who do you even have in mind if you want to replace Carroll?

[RiverDog]

Everyone has their standards. If all it takes to float your boat is a .500ish record and one and done in the playoffs, then by all means, let's keep the current regime intact. But simply producing mediocre team after mediocre team isn't acceptable in my book. We've had just one playoff win in the last 8 years. That doesn't work for me. And you can't blame it all on Russell.

I fully understand the risks associated with a regime change, and I'm willing to take that risk. At this point, I'm not calling for a coaching change as I want to see how this season plays out. But I've lost my patience with Pete. Simply reciting his decade old achievements isn't a good enough argument for retaining him.

Don't pretend you have high standards. You tolerated Holmgren and Knox for years and both were far worse than Pete. You talk like your standards would even produce a better team which they don't. The only way to get it done is find a proven performer and give them time. You can try some new coach like McVay, but has he been better than Pete? He's got one ring too and a bunch of playoff appearances and done. Who else besides Belichick is better than Pete? Who? Name them?

Andy Reid for starters. He has more rings and SB appearances than Pete does, has a way better winning percentage both in the regular season as well as the playoffs, and has done something that even Belichick hasn't, taken two different teams to SB's. Plus, he's done it recently, having won the past 7 AFC West titles, gone to 3 of the past 4 Super Bowls while winning two of them. Pete can't hold Reid's jockstrap.

How do you know who I tolerated and who I didn't? I didn't even start posting on the old PI forum until mid-season 2005. Besides, even if I did support Holmgren at the end of his tenure, it would have been for far less time after his SB appearance than Pete's.

And for the umpteenth time, the issue isn't what Pete has done 8 or 9 years ago, it's what have you done for me lately, and based on that, what can I expect that you can do for me tomorrow?

What will you say if we change and we get 10 years of no playoffs or worse than what you're getting now? You going to be calling for coach's heads every year?

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. All I'm saying is that I'm sick and tired of this perpetual mediocrity that we've been mirrored in over these past 7-8 years. If this were a burger stand, I'd be looking for a new cook.

I really want to know if you call for the change and we suck for the next ten plus years, Jodi sells the team because she's not really interested in managing it as Pete was the only person making her interested, and the new ownership is some Clay whatever his name is like for the Sonics? I wonder what you'll say then.

I'm not going to get into hypotheticals with you over some nightmare scenario of yours. Hell, I might not even be alive 10 years from now.

You keep talking about "standards, standards, standards" but if the team is worse? Where you will be then? Calling for a new coach every year and becoming Cleveland or Houston? What are you standards? How do you manage a football team?

I know from a management perspective, unless you have something better lined up you don't make the change. I doubt you can ensure the next coach is better than Pete.

I keep talking about standards? I mentioned the term once. I'm not sure why you're throwing it around like you are. And FYI, I know from personal experience that managers of companies don't always have an heir apparent lined up before they fire someone. On many, if not most occasions, they pull the trigger then go on a talent search, often times hiring a firm to procure candidates for them. I've seen my former employer wait for a month before hiring a replacement for an upper management position equivalent to a HC for an NFL team.

The only coach I would take right now I know of is Jim Harbaugh. I can't think of another college or pro coach I'd take over Carroll at this moment. Who do you even have in mind if you want to replace Carroll?

I wouldn't necessarily take Hairball. IMO he's overrated, inherited a full cupboard with the Niners then presided over their decline into obscurity. He left the Niners in an absolute shambles, The Niners were 8-8 in his last season then went 5-11, 2-14, 6-10, and 4-12 in the four years following his departure. Good coaches don't leave their teams in that kind of shape. Besides, Hairball has a corrosive personality. It's not a given that he'd be able to work with a GM like Pete does with John. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't hire him, only that it's not a given that he'd be the right man.

[trents]

We're overlooking the obvious. Those successful Legion of Boom years had more to do with the cast than it did the director. But Pete's relaxed, fun in he sun southern California coaching style sewed the seeds of discontent even while it was succeeding - that and the special treatment that RW got. It all began to fall apart when people like Michael Bennet, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas rebelled and got out of control. And Cam Chancelor's career ending neck injury didn't help either. We have not had a defensive cast like that one since.

[RiverDog]

We're overlooking the obvious. Those successful Legion of Boom years had more to do with the cast than it did the director. But Pete's relaxed, fun in he sun southern California coaching style sewed the seeds of discontent even while it was succeeding - that and the special treatment that RW got. It all began to fall apart when people like Michael Bennet, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas rebelled and got out of control. And Cam Chancelor's career ending neck injury didn't help either. We have not had a defensive cast like that one since.

Kam's holdout, Harvin's disobedience and subsequent trade, the rumors of Tate sleeping with RW's wife...lots of things, big and small, contributed to the break-up of the LOB. But the biggest reason was that loss in SB 49. As soon as the game was over, I said that it would be a bigger challenge for Pete to hold things together than it was building the championship team in the first place. You could tell by the way our defense started fighting the Pats at the end of the game that the atmosphere had changed.

But those LOB days are long gone, and the further they fade into our rear-view mirror, the less relevant they are to what lies ahead.

[Stream Hawk]

Don't pretend you have high standards. You tolerated Holmgren and Knox for years and both were far worse than Pete. You talk like your standards would even produce a better team which they don't. The only way to get it done is find a proven performer and give them time. You can try some new coach like McVay, but has he been better than Pete? He's got one ring too and a bunch of playoff appearances and done. Who else besides Belichick is better than Pete? Who? Name them?

What will you say if we change and we get 10 years of no playoffs or worse than what you're getting now? You going to be calling for coach's heads every year?

I really want to know if you call for the change and we suck for the next ten plus years, Jodi sells the team because she's not really interested in managing it as Pete was the only person making her interested, and the new ownership is some Clay whatever his name is like for the Sonics? I wonder what you'll say then.

You keep talking about "standards, standards, standards" but if the team is worse? Where you will be then? Calling for a new coach every year and becoming Cleveland or Houston? What are you standards? How do you manage a football team?

I know from a management perspective, unless you have something better lined up you don't make the change. I doubt you can ensure the next coach is better than Pete.

The only coach I would take right now I know of is Jim Harbaugh. I can't think of another college or pro coach I'd take over Carroll at this moment. Who do you even have in mind if you want to replace Carroll?

Edit. I will respond for River Dog when Asea asked for better coach examples than Pete. I was listening to the Mina Kimes podcast yesterday ranking top 10 coaches. Love her, btw. I think she had Pete at # 10. Her 1 was Reid of course. The guest host also agreed with her there. Her 2nd was Shanahan. I actually do think he has proven to be better than Pete. Then there were several other coaches like John Harbaugh, Tomlin, McVeigh, the new Let’s Ride boss, McDermont, Belichick - all well before Pete. Kimes is a huge homer, but she couldn’t place Pete above any of those coaches. I personally love what Pete gave our city from 11-14’, a little less after the bad call/throw, & the recent drafts are keeping hope. However his mastery of coaching is wearing thin.

[Aseahawkfan]

Andy Reid for starters. He has more rings and SB appearances than Pete does, has a way better winning percentage both in the regular season as well as the playoffs, and has done something that even Belichick hasn't, taken two different teams to SB's. Plus, he's done it recently, having won the past 7 AFC West titles, gone to 3 of the past 4 Super Bowls while winning two of them. Pete can't hold Reid's jockstrap.

How do you know who I tolerated and who I didn't? I didn't even start posting on the old PI forum until mid-season 2005. Besides, even if I did support Holmgren at the end of his tenure, it would have been for far less time after his SB appearance than Pete's.

And for the umpteenth time, the issue isn't what Pete has done 8 or 9 years ago, it's what have you done for me lately, and based on that, what can I expect that you can do for me tomorrow?

Mr. Flavor of the Month Riverdog bringing up Andy Reid. Reid didn't have a Super Bowl ring before he went to KC and won with Patrick Mahomes. Before that Reid was a bridesmaid, never a bride. Pete certainly could hold Andy Reid's jock. Reid's got two wins and Pete one.

I knew you were Mr. Riding the Bandwagon with the coaches.

Andy Reid with the Eagles was 9 of 14 years with the Eagles with one Super Bowl appearance. How was that? Would you have been satisfied with that?

So Reid goes to KC and he goes to the playoffs 9 of 10 years with 2 Super Bowls after he gets Patrick Mahomes.

So after 24 years Reid has been to the playoffs 18 of 24 years or 75% with 3 Super Bowl appearances and two wins after he found the stud QB.

Pete's been a head coach for 17 years. He's been to the playoffs 12 of 17 years with 2 Super Bowl appearances and 1 win after he found his QB. That is 71 percent.

So Reid's second run as head coach has been far, far better than his run in Philly. So has Carroll's second run.

So if Pete gets another 7 or so years like Reid, we'll see where they end up.


So Pete can definitely hold Reid's jockstrap. Pete's been a far better coach than you give him credit for. It's not surprising to see a fan base that has experienced the most success they've had in their history to suddenly start thinking the grass is greener when it may not be greener.

Reid was re-energized in KC and finally had a stud QB which was always the biggest component he was missing.

It seems to be me Pete's been re-energized with Russ gone. I hope he can ride that to some wins.

I don't see a Reid around. Or a Pete. Or a Holmgren to replace Pete with. I don't see any great coaches I can see taking over for Pete except Jim Harbaugh. If I don't see better, than I'd rather ride the old horse as far as we can take it.