Us and our delicate RB's

[c_hawkbob]

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
Seahawks’ HC Pete Carroll told reporters that rookie RB Zach Charbonnet has a shoulder injury and is out indefinitely.
5:54 PM · Jul 30, 2023

Yeesh!

[Stream Hawk]

JFC. I wonder what indefinitely means?! I was starting to warm up on Charbonnet. Apparently he’s a stud in the screen game. I’m OK if he misses some of the preseason; hopefully that’s all.

[curmudgeon]

and Walker has a groin issue……

[govandals]

Don't know if Alex Collins is on a roster, but hopefully PCJS has him on speed dial once again. lol

[RiverDog]

Sheez, is there something in the water over there in Renton or what? I know what it is! We didn't spend a high enough draft pick on a running back. Next year, we need to spend our first rounder on one. The odds should be in our favor that he'll stay healthy.

Either that, or how about we contact the Eagles and see if they wouldn't be interested in trading Penny for our 2024 first rounder.

[NorthHawk]

From what I've heard and read, they are being overly cautious with Walker but not sure how Charbonnet hurt his shoulder.
With Walker he's fine, but they don't want to aggravate it and want to give it time to fully heal. With Charboonnet it was something that started without contact and then began to get worse. It makes me wonder if it didn't happen in the weight room.

Edit:
And the Falcons just signed Godwin Igwebuike who played for us last year mostly as a kick returner. I thought he was pretty good at that and would have liked to keep him.
With the injuries to the top 2 RBs, it's an opportunity for McIntosh to show what he has.

[RiverDog]

From what I've heard and read, they are being overly cautious with Walker but not sure how Charbonnet hurt his shoulder.
With Walker he's fine, but they don't want to aggravate it and want to give it time to fully heal. With Charboonnet it was something that started without contact and then began to get worse. It makes me wonder if it didn't happen in the weight room.

Edit:
And the Falcons just signed Godwin Igwebuike who played for us last year mostly as a kick returner. I thought he was pretty good at that and would have liked to keep him.
With the injuries to the top 2 RBs, it's an opportunity for McIntosh to show what he has.

Hopefully this groin injury Walker has isn't a symptom of his being out of shape.

Did you guys read Penny's comments about the medical staff on the Eagles? He went out of his way not to be critical of the Hawks, but as many kisses he blew the Eagles' staff it has to be considered an indictment of our staff.

“Well, first and foremost I think Seattle did an amazing job with me it was just unfortunate [it didn’t work out],” Penny said, refusing to blame Seattle’s staff. “But here they just really care about players’ health, and I think I could play 20 more years here, just because of how good they take care of you.

“And just what they do on the off-days and how they structure their days just to get ready to prepare for the next day. I think every day since camp started, I’ve been fresh every day. I really give credit to these guys. They’re really an A+ organization in the way they take care of their guys.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ex ... r-AA1ezd7Q

[NorthHawk]

Also add these comments:

The “it” has been Penny’s commitment to conditioning, spurred on by the Eagles’ strength and conditioning staff. The 5-foot-11 running back showed up to camp weighing 230 pounds, with plans to get even lighter. Penny, who weighed 237 pounds last year in Seattle, is attempting to drop down to his college playing weight of 225 before Week 1 – and the trainers in Philly have mapped out a plan.

It makes me wonder if the strength and conditioning coaches shouldn't get together and compare ideas and techniques. It might help the game in the long run if it keeps some of the starters on the field longer.
The DE's get together to help each other with the pass rush and the TEs get together to help get the most out of their chances, so why not some of the strength and conditioning coaches?

[RiverDog]

Also add these comments:

The “it” has been Penny’s commitment to conditioning, spurred on by the Eagles’ strength and conditioning staff. The 5-foot-11 running back showed up to camp weighing 230 pounds, with plans to get even lighter. Penny, who weighed 237 pounds last year in Seattle, is attempting to drop down to his college playing weight of 225 before Week 1 – and the trainers in Philly have mapped out a plan.

It makes me wonder if the strength and conditioning coaches shouldn't get together and compare ideas and techniques. It might help the game in the long run if it keeps some of the starters on the field longer.
The DE's get together to help each other with the pass rush and the TEs get together to help get the most out of their chances, so why not some of the strength and conditioning coaches?

Yeah, I read that in there, too. I remember Penny reporting to camp overweight then straining a hamstring in OTA's. Obviously, conditioning was a factor in his inability to stay on the field, and I'm hoping that we're not seeing the same thing from Walker.

[NorthHawk]

Groins and other pulls are strange things in that they can happen at any time regardless of conditioning.
Just a small misstep or slip and the groin can be affected. They're being super cautious (at least that's Pete's take and we've heard that before with serious injuries) so maybe it's just a precaution.

[Vegaseahawk]

how about we contact the Eagles and see if they wouldn't be interested in trading Penny for our 2024 first rounder.

Johnathan Taylor wants out of Indy, just sayin'

[RiverDog]

how about we contact the Eagles and see if they wouldn't be interested in trading Penny for our 2024 first rounder.

Johnathan Taylor wants out of Indy, just sayin'

Even if we wanted to, we wouldn't have enough cap space to sign him.

[c_hawkbob]

We want him bad enough cap space can be made.

[TriCitySam]

Considering the issues we've had with RB's, basically lost them all one year, it makes a case for NOT giving them bigger contract....I know the short career is why they want more $, but I mean Penny was only able to play in 50% of the games. So the cost to the team was 2X is contract based on availability.

[RiverDog]

Considering the issues we've had with RB's, basically lost them all one year, it makes a case for NOT giving them bigger contract....I know the short career is why they want more $, but I mean Penny was only able to play in 50% of the games. So the cost to the team was 2X is contract based on availability.

And by the same token, it doesn't make sense to spend 1st and 2nd round draft picks on them when (A) they have a much higher chance of injury than other positions, especially when you figure the odds of injury per play, (B) they aren't generally 3-down players, and (C) the running back isn't nearly as impactful as they were in years past. It's a quarterback's league.

[NorthHawk]

It's a bit weird (in a coincidental way) that we can't keep RBs healthy and the 49ers can't keep QBs healthy.

Edit:
Maybe the 9ers shouldn't draft a QB early, either.

[trents]

It's a bit weird (in a coincidental way) that we can't keep RBs healthy and the 49ers can't keep QBs healthy.

Edit:
Maybe the 9ers shouldn't draft a QB early, either.

And they haven't. Brock Purdy was the last player chosen in the draft two drafts ago, wasn't he?

[Aseahawkfan]

And they haven't. Brock Purdy was the last player chosen in the draft two drafts ago, wasn't he?

Are you really bringing up Brock Purdy while forgetting all they spent to move up to get Trey Lance? C'mon man, they went all in on Trey Lance far worse than we ever had at RB and that dude is looking like a giant bust.

[RiverDog]

It's a bit weird (in a coincidental way) that we can't keep RBs healthy and the 49ers can't keep QBs healthy.

Edit:
Maybe the 9ers shouldn't draft a QB early, either.

And they haven't. Brock Purdy was the last player chosen in the draft two drafts ago, wasn't he?

Yeah. that's why Purdy has the tag "Mr. Irrelevant."

Have you forgotten about Trey Lance? Not only was he drafted in the first round, the Niners sold the farm to trade up to get him.

[c_hawkbob]

I thought selling the farm for Lance only to have Mr irrelevant take up the starters reins was why North brought he Niners an QB's into the conversation.

[RiverDog]

I thought selling the farm for Lance only to have Mr irrelevant take up the starters reins was why North brought he Niners an QB's into the conversation.

Yeah, that would make more sense if it wasn't for the fact that unlike running backs, quarterbacks aren't injured nearly as often, they play every down, and the game revolves around them.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, that would make more sense if it wasn't for the fact that unlike running backs, quarterbacks aren't injured nearly as often, they play every down, and the game revolves around them.

QBs bust all the time setting teams back for having spent such high picks on them because so many teams sell the farm to take a QB while not having much of a team around them.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, that would make more sense if it wasn't for the fact that unlike running backs, quarterbacks aren't injured nearly as often, they play every down, and the game revolves around them.

QBs bust all the time setting teams back for having spent such high picks on them because so many teams sell the farm to take a QB while not having much of a team around them.

I never said they didn't. My point is that all things being created equal, a running back is a poor use of a high draft pick, injury prone being one of several reasons.

[Aseahawkfan]

I never said they didn't. My point is that all things being created equal, a running back is a poor use of a high draft pick, injury prone being one of several reasons.

I don't know that I agree. Top 10 pick? Sure. Maybe even top 15.

But a 16 to 30 pick I'm ok with a good RB. If you do get a hard runner who can stay healthy, you can really help your team.

Big thing with RBs like with QBs, a higher pick has a higher chance of being a stud, but you just never know where you're going to find that top RB as they can show up in any round with more frequency than QBs. But first round picks definitely have higher ceilings than lower round backs. Hard to find a Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson in later rounds. Even Lynch was a number 12 overall pick.

[RiverDog]

I might have posted this before, but it seems appropriate to bring it up again:

Position Games Injuries/Game Snap % Avg Inj Length (G) Games Available of 16
All 21493 4.1% 49% 3.1 14.2
CB 2219 4.4% 54% 2.9 14.2
DE 2117 3.9% 46% 3.0 14.3
DT 1271 4.3% 43% 2.9 14.2
FB 394 1.5% 21% 1.8 15.6
LB 3331 4.3% 44% 3.0 14.2
OL 3851 3.4% 62% 3.3 14.4
QB 1137 2.5% 42% 3.1 14.9
RB 1487 5.2% 31% 3.9 13.3
S 1954 4.7% 53% 3.0 14.0
TE 1351 4.9% 45% 2.6 14.2
WR 2381 4.5% 50% 3.2 14.0

As expected, running backs are at the highest risk of injury, and their injuries average significantly longer in length than any other position.

https://www.profootballlogic.com/articl ... -analysis/

The table didn't copy very well, but the bottom line is that at 5.2%, a running back has over twice the chance if injury than a quarterback at 2.5%, their average injury length is the longest at 3.9 games (3.1 games for a QB), and the number of games they are available, 13.3 in a 16 game season, is the lowest of any position. The risk is heightened even further when you take into consideration that the percentage of snaps a running back gets are much lower than that of a quarterback or offensive lineman.

[RiverDog]

I never said they didn't. My point is that all things being created equal, a running back is a poor use of a high draft pick, injury prone being one of several reasons.

I don't know that I agree. Top 10 pick? Sure. Maybe even top 15.

But a 16 to 30 pick I'm ok with a good RB. If you do get a hard runner who can stay healthy, you can really help your team.

Big thing with RBs like with QBs, a higher pick has a higher chance of being a stud, but you just never know where you're going to find that top RB as they can show up in any round with more frequency than QBs. But first round picks definitely have higher ceilings than lower round backs. Hard to find a Barry Sanders or Adrian Peterson in later rounds. Even Lynch was a number 12 overall pick.

Of course, with QB's and RB's, the higher the pick, the better chance of being a stud. That's true with any position.

I have three primary reasons why I don't like burning high draft picks on running backs: (1) They are more prone to injury and when they are injured miss more games than any other position (see above). (2) They typically are not 3 down players. Most, like Penny and Walker, are poor blockers. Very few are effective in multiple roles. (3) The game has changed. Running backs are no longer the featured position like they used to be.

To highlight my last point, I found this article from Sept. 2022 to be interesting:

Can you tell me, without looking, which currently employed NFL running back ranks highest on the all-time rushing leaders list? You are not allowed to answer Adrian Peterson, because Adrian Peterson is still out looking for a job and can’t find one because he is old and insane. Maybe he’ll run for Senate in Georgia one day. So who else might it be? Could it be current NFL rushing leader Nick Chubb? What about my hometown back Dalvin Cook? OOH! OOH! It has to consensus best running back in the universe Derrick Henry, right? Those other two guys are still fairly young, but Henry’s been around long enough to be high up on the list, no?

No. The answer is Mark Ingram, who currently ranks 52nd all-time in rushing yardage, behind the likes of Stephen Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Terry Allen, and Matt Forte.

https://defector.com/have-we-seen-the-l ... nning-back

So much for the chances of drafting a stud running back. They no longer exist.

[NorthHawk]

Fear of positional injury is no reason to not draft that position early.
If you look at your stats, there is only 1 game/16 or less missed more by RBs than WRs, TEs, S, LBs, and DT's per year or about 6.25% or less.
That's no enough to justify not drafting a position early if your team needs a good RB and it's a big part of your offensive philosophy.
If you are an Air Raid type of offense, then you can get away with it, but that type of offense is rarely used in the NFL and it's why Robinson and Gibbs went early in this years draft.
As well, the RB position is evolving with the players becoming more than just a ball carrier. Teams are moving towards the all purpose RB who can also gash a defense up the middle upon occasion.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Of course, with QB's and RB's, the higher the pick, the better chance of being a stud. That's true with any position.

I have three primary reasons why I don't like burning high draft picks on running backs: (1) They are more prone to injury and when they are injured miss more games than any other position (see above). (2) They typically are not 3 down players. Most, like Penny and Walker, are poor blockers. Very few are effective in multiple roles. (3) The game has changed. Running backs are no longer the featured position like they used to be.

To highlight my last point, I found this article from Sept. 2022 to be interesting:

Can you tell me, without looking, which currently employed NFL running back ranks highest on the all-time rushing leaders list? You are not allowed to answer Adrian Peterson, because Adrian Peterson is still out looking for a job and can’t find one because he is old and insane. Maybe he’ll run for Senate in Georgia one day. So who else might it be? Could it be current NFL rushing leader Nick Chubb? What about my hometown back Dalvin Cook? OOH! OOH! It has to consensus best running back in the universe Derrick Henry, right? Those other two guys are still fairly young, but Henry’s been around long enough to be high up on the list, no?

No. The answer is Mark Ingram, who currently ranks 52nd all-time in rushing yardage, behind the likes of Stephen Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Terry Allen, and Matt Forte.

https://defector.com/have-we-seen-the-l ... nning-back

So much for the chances of drafting a stud running back. They no longer exist.

That article is not without it's drawbacks. Mark Ingram has 12 years under his belt and he's actually 50. Henry and Elliot are ahead of him in yards rushing and have 7 seasons in. Cook has 6 and Chubb has 8; maybe they pass Ingram, maybe they don't. Josh Jacobs only has 4 seasons in. Barkely has 5 and Taylor has 3. These guys can likely pass him up as well, and they are essentially feature backs in their offenses and are pretty studly in their own right.

So, agreed there's not that many, but they do still exist, and it's hampered by the fact that not a lot offenses focus on the running game like they used to. 8 out of the top 10 rushers from last year were drafted in the second round or higher. I think if a team is going to commit to the run game on offense, then it makes a lot of sense to draft a guy in the 1st or 2nd round. If your offense leans into the passing game and/or has a mobile quarterback, then RBs can just be serviceable and by committee.

Can't deny shelf life, though. That would have to factor into draft capital expenditure. If a team doesn't have the pieces to get the most out of high round RB, then that's probably better spend on getting the OL or QB spot right.

[RiverDog]

Fear of positional injury is no reason to not draft that position early.
If you look at your stats, there is only 1 game/16 or less missed more by RBs than WRs, TEs, S, LBs, and DT's per year or about 6.25% or less.
That's no enough to justify not drafting a position early if your team needs a good RB and it's a big part of your offensive philosophy.
If you are an Air Raid type of offense, then you can get away with it, but that type of offense is rarely used in the NFL and it's why Robinson and Gibbs went early in this years draft.
As well, the RB position is evolving with the players becoming more than just a ball carrier. Teams are moving towards the all purpose RB who can also gash a defense up the middle upon occasion.

That's just one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is at a 5.2% chance of injury, a running back has a 24% higher chance of sustaining an injury that causes them to miss at least one game than the average player (4.2%). That's a substantially greater risk.

If it were only susceptibility to injury, then it wouldn't be as big of a problem. But when you combine it with the fact that most are not 3 down players AND the decreased importance of the running back, it adds up to what in my opinion is a bad use of draft capital.

[EmeraldBullet]

Idk, sure its a QB league....but, having an elite RB makes the QB so much more effective. Theres a big difference in playaction depending on who the RB is

[RiverDog]

Idk, sure its a QB league....but, having an elite RB makes the QB so much more effective. Theres a big difference in playaction depending on who the RB is

So who is Patrick Mahomes 'elite' running back? Joe Burrow's? Justin Hebert's? Or Josh Allen's'? None of those quarterbacks had a running back ranked in the top 10. IMO most 'elite' running backs (Derrick Henry of Tennessee, Nick Chubb of Cleveland, and Josh Jacobs of the Raiders) excel due at least in part to a void created by the lack of an elite quarterback. And it's important to note that none of those top 3 'elite' running backs played for a .500+ team.

I'm not saying that having a great running back isn't an important asset. Certainly, McCaffery helped take a lot of pressure off of Mr. Irrelevant. My argument is one of value, most bang for the buck.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

And if every team had a Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Herbert, there wouldn’t be a market at all for top running backs. You know how it is; 32 starting spots for QB and maybe 5-6 at in any given year are the kinds QBs that carry the offense through the air. Teams have to make up for lesser QB play somehow.

[RiverDog]

And if every team had a Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, or Herbert, there wouldn’t be a market at all for top running backs. You know how it is; 32 starting spots for QB and maybe 5-6 at in any given year are the kinds QBs that carry the offense through the air. Teams have to make up for lesser QB play somehow.

But those RB's are carrying mostly unsuccessful teams. The last time that the league rushing champ went to the Super Bowl was Shaun Alexander in XL in the 2005 season. Saquan Barkley and Derrick Henry are arguably the best two running backs over the course of the past 5 years, but how have their teams faired? Between the two of them, they've won a grand total of one playoff game in 5 years. And how has Nick Chubb's Browns performed since he arrived on the scene?

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I’m saying when you don’t have the QB play, you have to do something to give yourself a shot to win games. There’s also the fan base to consider. Give them something to hang on to.

I’m not saying top RBs are the optimal way to win in the NFL. Just having one isn’t enough and you definitely get more mileage out of top flight QB play. Just saying there’s not enough go around so you have get what you can get, and I’m attributing that as to why some running backs will still be drafted high.

[NorthHawk]

For us, it's important.
We just have to look at how our Offense performed when the starting RB went down.

[RiverDog]

For us, it's important.
We just have to look at how our Offense performed when the starting RB went down.

Our entire team hasn't performed well over the past 7 years, healthy running backs or not.

[NorthHawk]

The Offense was steady and balanced when Marshawn was here, but it took a step back when he left (from a balanced Offense pov) and put more of the responsibility on Wilson. He could handle a lot of it, but having a top RB for the opposing Defense to respect could have made a big difference.

[RiverDog]

The Offense was steady and balanced when Marshawn was here, but it took a step back when he left (from a balanced Offense pov) and put more of the responsibility on Wilson. He could handle a lot of it, but having a top RB for the opposing Defense to respect could have made a big difference.

You also have to consider the regression that occurred with our defense during that period of time.

[NorthHawk]

Charbonnet back at practice today.

The Offense had to track toward a throwing scheme instead of a run first after Lynch left. The balance at times was really out of sync and it followed with all RBs. Maybe now that they should have a few good RBs it won’t affect the game planning.

[RiverDog]

Charbonnet back at practice today.

The Offense had to track toward a throwing scheme instead of a run first after Lynch left. The balance at times was really out of sync and it followed with all RBs. Maybe now that they should have a few good RBs it won’t affect the game planning.

They're going to have to improve the offensive line if we want to get back to a run first offense. We had the 27th ranked OL last season. We might be getting the wagon in front of the horse by focusing so much attention on running backs.

That's one of the things I'll be watching during preseason, how our new blood, particularly at center, performs.