HawkShack.com

Seattle traded for Pro Bowl DE Leonard Williams but not for his salary:

Albert Breer
@AlbertBreer
New Seahawks DL Leonard Williams has $10 million due for the rest of 2023. Seattle will only be responsible for the prorated veteran minimum, with the Giants converting the rest to a signing bonus and picking that up pre-trade, sources say.

So again, Giants pay to up the picks.

sounds good to me from what I have read about him and his abilities so far. We just got better.

Hope he helps for this year, but Cap space next year is real tight.
He may end up like the Richardson and Clowney trades where we didn’t re-sign them.
Looks like Pete is thinking short term again.

Next years FAs:

Wagner
Haynes
Lock
Bush
Brooks
Brown
Taylor
Edwards
Lewis
Parkinson
Dallas
Jackson
Myles Adams
Curhan
Williams
Fant

and a couple of others. They also have to decide about whether to pay Geno $31M next year.

I like it. Low cap cost this year, and our 2nd round pick would be fairly low....but we have Denver's 3rd...which should be fairly high. As we've learned, you can maneuver and create the cap space. In this regard, I trust JS. We haven't had a fire sale like some teams in his 13 years here.

According to Over the Cap.com, he's not even part of the "top 51" salaries, so essentially, he's free of cap to us. Short term rental for 2 draft picks.
Time will tell, but it's the 49ers / Rams and others have used trading draft picks to lower their future cap hits the same way.

The question: Were the second and fifth round draft picks worth a 10 week rental? When most trades seem to be 4-7th round picks and exchanges, this seemed excessive.

Looks like a solid pick up.

NorthHawk wrote:Hope he helps for this year, but Cap space next year is real tight.
He may end up like the Richardson and Clowney trades where we didn’t re-sign them.
Looks like Pete is thinking short term again.

As soon as the trade was announced, I thought of Clowney. But at least it isn't another Jamal Adams trade. It's been a long time since we've had one of these types of trades work out.

Pete obviously thinks he's close to fielding a championship quality team and looking at what's going on in our division with the Niners on a 3-game losing streak, it's hard to blame him. But I wish that the deadline was a week later. Next week will go a long way in finding out if we're contenders or pretenders.

Giving away a 2nd and a 5th for 10 games has eerily similar vibes to the Adams trade. They again, don't have an extension framework while giving up a 2nd and 5th for a player not in the other teams future.
Combined with the Cap space hit in the next few years should they re-sign him, he could impact which current players we are able to keep.

Like the trade but sure seems like Giants and Jets are Hawks farm teams now

Uppercut wrote:Like the trade but sure seems like Giants and Jets are Hawks farm teams now

The Jets fleeced us and it may be that the Giants did as well. We seem to be the patsy at the poker game since the Richardson trade.
The Giants sent a 3rd round pick to the Jets to get Williams and now as he's approaching 30 and in a year or two will be on the downside of his career, we've given up a 2nd and 5th. If he was 25, it would be more palatable as he has a longer future.
I'm not sure mortgaging the future for the present is a wise strategy considering where this team is in it's development.

NorthHawk wrote:Giving away a 2nd and a 5th for 10 games has eerily similar vibes to the Adams trade. They again, don't have an extension framework while giving up a 2nd and 5th for a player not in the other teams future.
Combined with the Cap space hit in the next few years should they re-sign him, he could impact which current players we are able to keep.

It's a weak comparison for me; I think the Adams deal soured us all, so any deal gets framed with that as the backdrop. He'd have been a lot cheaper as far as draft capital if the Seahawks had the cap space to get him. I'll bet Williams is only here for the remainder of the season regardless of outcome. I don't see them forking over a big contract to a 30 year old DT. Reed got 2 years at $12.8 and he's 30.

They are 5-2, leading the division and about to hit the hardest part of the schedule with a lack of depth on the DL. If there was another move out there to help shore the DL up for the back half of the season, I'm all ears. This and hopefully Cam Young coming along will put less pressure on Reed to do it all.

NorthHawk wrote:The Jets fleeced us and it may be that the Giants did as well. We seem to be the patsy at the poker game since the Richardson trade.
The Giants sent a 3rd round pick to the Jets to get Williams and now as he's approaching 30 and in a year or two will be on the downside of his career, we've given up a 2nd and 5th. If he was 25, it would be more palatable as he has a longer future.
I'm not sure mortgaging the future for the present is a wise strategy considering where this team is in it's development.

This is a bit much; no "may" or "seem", it's nowhere close to a fleecing or being played as patsy. The Adams trade was 2 1sts and a 3rd and McDougal for a 4th. Then a huge contract for a guy that hasn't stayed healthy. These are worlds apart considering the Adams draft capital was given up when a reload was way past due. They are in a much better position and gave up a lot less with a lot less financial liability for immediate and much needed help on DL this season.

Always a lot of "the cup is half empty" guys here. Giants basically paid us $10 million - this is a $647K cap hit. And to worry about him being a FA, JS is smarter than you and me, so quite sure he's figure out what the overall value is in this deal and does it make sense 5 months from now. And while the Adams deal hasn't work out, it wasn't because Adams isn't a real talent. So no fleecing there by the Jets...they had no clue JA was going to get injured.

So what about next year?
How are we going to pay all of our FA's or others to fill those positions and give Williams a new contract?
We are going to have to let go of some good players to stay under the Cap as it stands today.

BTW, the Bears just got Montez Sweat for a single 2nd rounder. Sure, it's a higher pick, but Sweat is younger and a much better player than Williams.

NorthHawk wrote:So what about next year?
How are we going to pay all of our FA's or others to fill those positions and give Williams a new contract?
We are going to have to let go of some good players to stay under the Cap as it stands today.

BTW, the Bears just got Montez Sweat for a single 2nd rounder. Sure, it's a higher pick, but Sweat is younger and a much better player than Williams.

As mentioned earlier, as we have witnessed in the past, what the cap is TODAY, doesn't mean a lot. As we know there are many ways for the teams to maneuver and create cap space by restructuring contracts, pro-rating signing bonuses, and yes evening moving on from some less valued players.

I see The Athletic graded this an even trade, but ultimately how they perform in the future dictates the value.

We've ALL recognized the need for a really big body in the middle, and imagined what it could mean with the other (considerable) talent around it.....if they see a real chance to push for a spot in big dance, who here would feel that was a risk not worth taking?

NorthHawk wrote:So what about next year?
How are we going to pay all of our FA's or others to fill those positions and give Williams a new contract?
We are going to have to let go of some good players to stay under the Cap as it stands today.

BTW, the Bears just got Montez Sweat for a single 2nd rounder. Sure, it's a higher pick, but Sweat is younger and a much better player than Williams.

Next year is next year. You've already seen them figure out cap stuff from year to year. Doesn't seem to impact much.

If Leonard is good, maybe we sign him over keeping someone else.

I don't like losing the 2nd round pick though. Good pick to get quality LBs. We need quality LBs.

If we do nothing in the playoffs or don't even make them, this pick will look worse. If we can make a deeper playoff run, then it will payoff. Just more Pete and John gambling near the end of their time here.

As to the cost of this deal, we had basically an extra pick (3rd from Denver) for the 2024 draft. ADDITIONALLY, if they fail to resign Williams they will be in line for a 3rd round compensatory pick in the '24 draft....so this basically cost not much more than the 5th rounder.

NorthHawk wrote:So what about next year?
How are we going to pay all of our FA's or others to fill those positions and give Williams a new contract?
We are going to have to let go of some good players to stay under the Cap as it stands today.

BTW, the Bears just got Montez Sweat for a single 2nd rounder. Sure, it's a higher pick, but Sweat is younger and a much better player than Williams.

You're right about the cost, I think it's too much too, for a 10 game rental, but in a fairness comparison, Sweat is a 100% outside rushing DE/LB that we seem to have covered with our own young'ens like Mafe. Williams is far more a run stopping interior lineman that we really do need. Jarran is undersized for a 3-4 Nose and may not last the year without help.

NorthHawk wrote:So what about next year?
How are we going to pay all of our FA's or others to fill those positions and give Williams a new contract?
We are going to have to let go of some good players to stay under the Cap as it stands today.

BTW, the Bears just got Montez Sweat for a single 2nd rounder. Sure, it's a higher pick, but Sweat is younger and a much better player than Williams.

What about next year? He doesn't have to be signed after this year and there's no dead money from what I understand.

Sweat is better and younger than Williams, but the Bears have the cap space to sign him; no way Seattle was going to get a player like that given their cap space. The only reason a 2nd was used to get Williams was to get the Giants to carry his $10 million dollar cap hit. You can't look at this move strictly from the player aspect.

jshawaii22 wrote:You're right about the cost, I think it's too much too, for a 10 game rental, but in a fairness comparison, Sweat is a 100% outside rushing DE/LB that we seem to have covered with our own young'ens like Mafe. Williams is far more a run stopping interior lineman that we really do need. Jarran is undersized for a 3-4 Nose and may not last the year without help.

A second is too much if Seattle had had the cap space. Draft compensation would have been lower otherwise.

I otherwise agree with the post; DL needs to some help to spread the snap counts around. The seasons is going to be rough from here on out.

The Athletic may have had this an even trade but most I've seen, most notably Scott Pioli, while liking he trade for both sides like it better for us. Saying he fits our scheme to a tee. I love the deal myself. We had excess draft capitol and a need on the D-line, it was a no lose proposition for us.

If we do a deep playoff run, pick will be late 2nd round. If we collapse, then high 2nd round pick. That sets the value in my opinion.

Aseahawkfan wrote:If we do a deep playoff run, pick will be late 2nd round. If we collapse, then high 2nd round pick. That sets the value in my opinion.

So are you suggesting that the difference between a mid-round 2nd and a low round 3rd is too much for Williams? From a talent perspective, the draft grades between a #48prospect and #64 prospect is not much.

I still don't get those saying a #2 is too much. If he plays well and we re-sign him it is not. If we can't or don't want to resign, we get a #3 compensatory pick. So with that and $647K salary - this is a low cost deal.

TriCitySam wrote:So are you suggesting that the difference between a mid-round 2nd and a low round 3rd is too much for Williams? From a talent perspective, the draft grades between a #48prospect and #64 prospect is not much.

I still don't get those saying a #2 is too much. If he plays well and we re-sign him it is not. If we can't or don't want to resign, we get a #3 compensatory pick. So with that and $647K salary - this is a low cost deal.

Yes. Renting a guy for 10 games by trading a high 2nd round pick sucks. It means you assessed your chance of competing wrongly.

Whereas renting a guy for 10 games for a deep playoff run means your GM assessed your chances correctly and made a trade to strengthen a deep playoff contender.

So where we end up with the final record determines whether this is a good trade because your GM's ability to accurately value trades based on how competitive your team is is essential to good team management.

Yes. Renting a guy for 10 games by trading a high 2nd round pick sucks

Your assumption being he's only a rental and we don't sign him long term, in which case we get a 3rd round compensatory pick back. It seems you've neglected to factor that into the cost of the rental.

If the scheme fit is so good that he returns to 2010 form, then it's not an overpay. If I could have faith that the Hawks would get a comp pick if Williams walks, then I'd be okay with the deal. But we've all seen PC/JS piss away comp picks by signing journeymen in FA so I can't have faith that they'll get that comp pick.

On it's own, I like the player and fit, and in a vacuum maybe the 2nd is fine. But seeing Young go for a 3rd and Sweat for a 2nd (albeit a very high 2nd) I think that the Hawks overpaid the market price. That's even considering that NY is paying his salary. He's here now, though, and I think that he makes the DL much better. So welcome, Leonard Williams! Let's win some stuff.

In 2010 dude was in high school ... not the form we want him to return to.

Oly wrote:If the scheme fit is so good that he returns to 2010 form, then it's not an overpay. If I could have faith that the Hawks would get a comp pick if Williams walks, then I'd be okay with the deal. But we've all seen PC/JS piss away comp picks by signing journeymen in FA so I can't have faith that they'll get that comp pick.

On it's own, I like the player and fit, and in a vacuum maybe the 2nd is fine. But seeing Young go for a 3rd and Sweat for a 2nd (albeit a very high 2nd) I think that the Hawks overpaid the market price. That's even considering that NY is paying his salary. He's here now, though, and I think that he makes the DL much better. So welcome, Leonard Williams! Let's win some stuff.

You're grossly underselling what it takes to get a team to carry a $10 million cap hit for a player to play on another team. You get it good, quick, or cheap, and you can only have two of those.

MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:You're grossly underselling what it takes to get a team to carry a $10 million cap hit for a player to play on another team. You get it good, quick, or cheap, and you can only have two of those.

Oh, I know that's what it took to get the deal through. That was a big deal and was necessary to move the deal over the line. But in terms of long-term value, I don't think this trade scores highly.

c_hawkbob wrote:Your assumption being he's only a rental and we don't sign him long term, in which case we get a 3rd round compensatory pick back. It seems you've neglected to factor that into the cost of the rental.

That would make it better. Depends on what we lose to do so. We'll see if this was good in time like all these moves.

c_hawkbob wrote:The Athletic may have had this an even trade but most I've seen, most notably Scott Pioli, while liking he trade for both sides like it better for us. Saying he fits our scheme to a tee. I love the deal myself. We had excess draft capitol and a need on the D-line, it was a no lose proposition for us.

A no-lose proposition for us? I'm not sure what defines excess draft capital (we currently have 1 extra pick for a total of 8 in 2024 vs. 10 picks in 2023), but the fact that we may have slightly more than the average number of picks doesn't mean that it can't be utilized in some other manner besides on the trade for Williams. it's still going to be a lost resource if he doesn't produce.

Speaking of trades, the 49ers just got injury prone Chase Young. This is interesting as Young has the potential to be a top tier edge rusher, but he has yet to to stay healthy year after year. He is still quite young, but I think this is the 49ers desperately trying to elevate their defense even more to stay in the race with the Eagles and Cowboys. 49ers are looking more and more vulnerable week after week. Desperation move? or not?

4XPIPS wrote:Speaking of trades, the 49ers just got injury prone Chase Young. This is interesting as Young has the potential to be a top tier edge rusher, but he has yet to to stay healthy year after year. He is still quite young, but I think this is the 49ers desperately trying to elevate their defense even more to stay in the race with the Eagles and Cowboys. 49ers are looking more and more vulnerable week after week. Desperation move? or not?

Stay in the race between the Eagles and Cowboys? If that's what they're thinking, they'd better wake up and smell the roses. They're behind us in the race for the division title.

And as far as desperation goes, they're still a very legitimate contender with a 5-3 record. They would be completely unjustified to be taking unnecessary risks to right their ship.

Aseahawkfan wrote:That would make it better. Depends on what we lose to do so. We'll see if this was good in time like all these moves.

That would be the deal if we don't resign him. There is no cost for getting the 3rd round compensatory pick....actually the "cost" assigned for a compensatory pick is the inability to resign him and another team gets him. So it is not a lost resource, simply devalued from a 2nd to a 3rd.

Aseahawkfan wrote:That would make it better. Depends on what we lose to do so. We'll see if this was good in time like all these moves.

TriCitySam wrote:That would be the deal if we don't resign him. There is no cost for getting the 3rd round compensatory pick....actually the "cost" assigned for a compensatory pick is the inability to resign him and another team gets him. So it is not a lost resource, simply devalued from a 2nd to a 3rd.

It's a little lower than a 3rd. Compensatory picks are awarded after all of the other 3rd round picks, so it's essentially a 4th round pick.

RiverDog wrote:Stay in the race between the Eagles and Cowboys? If that's what they're thinking, they'd better wake up and smell the roses. They're behind us in the race for the division title.

And as far as desperation goes, they're still a very legitimate contender with a 5-3 record. They would be completely unjustified to be taking unnecessary risks to right their ship.

Regardless of the current records and where we sit, I still feel the 49ers are a better team than us until proven otherwise. As you have mentioned many times previously are schedule is about to get real tough and we still have two games against 49ers. I would be shocked if we can maintain this position in the conference standings after we play them twice in a short period. It seems like Purdy and Geno are going down the same path, but the 49ers just have way more talent on both sides of the ball and they are getting Deebo back soon.

RiverDog wrote:It's a little lower than a 3rd. Compensatory picks are awarded after all of the other 3rd round picks, so it's essentially a 4th round pick.

Well, still technically the bottom of the 3rd. And the point was the cost is not losing a "high 2nd"....we could lose 10 straight and may not get in the top 10. The cost is $647K plus moving down 32-42 spots or so, and that seems like a fairly good deal. Having a big body in the middle could have a real impact.

If Williams doesn’t re-sign here we aren’t getting any type of comp pick for losing him.
Why? Because we have too many FAs ourselves and will surely sign someone else after some of ours leave for other teams.

RiverDog wrote:It's a little lower than a 3rd. Compensatory picks are awarded after all of the other 3rd round picks, so it's essentially a 4th round pick.

TriCitySam wrote:Well, still technically the bottom of the 3rd. And the point was the cost is not losing a "high 2nd"....we could lose 10 straight and may not get in the top 10. The cost is $647K plus moving down 32-42 spots or so, and that seems like a fairly good deal. Having a big body in the middle could have a real impact.

If you want to get technical and break it out by brackets, with 1-32 overall being first round, 33-64 overall being second round, and 65-96 overall being third round, it's a 4th round pick.

But I don't want to get ticky tacky. My point is that it's a little misleading to call it a straight 3rd round pick.

The comp pick isn’t a given. This trade was a win now move that required the 2nd rounder to get him in under the cap. If he happens to sign an extension or nets a comp pick next offseason, that’s lagniappe for me.