Pundits calling us out

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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Anthony » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:09 am

RiverDog wrote:uhh the first thing she said was

"{Tim Hass says our receivers are mediocre & RW has been keeping it together and hiding the glaring weakness @ wideout."

That's a negative about our WRs and yet you focused on Rw.

Now that said What discussion would you like to have about our WR not being very good the last few games, or the horrible play calling or the porous o-line and mediocre run game. You see that is my problem with your outburst, yes Rw played bad, but 1 bad game in a season were he carried us, hid our weaknesses like when the o-lien was in shambles, and you want to lay in on as thick as you did. its pretty pathetic, heck Jacknuts in the other forum is being better about it then you and you know how anti Rw he is, but even he is like, okay he had a bad game, was bound to happen given how much we were asking of him and he believes he will bounce back, but you your off the hill on it.

Uhh, that wasn't the first thing she said. Go back and re-read the IP and you will see that it says as follows:

As predicted, the 12-3 Hawks are getting hammered in the media and as predicted, criticism of RW was waaay bigger than this game.

I've about had it with discussing this topic with you. Despite my pleas for you to stop, you continue to attack me, saying I'm "pretty pathetic", comparing me to another poster, etc. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, then fine, I'm game. But let's not go down the path of attacking each other personally.


Dude I never attacked you at all, I never called you names or anything, all I said was your going over the top with you rant about Rw. But hey whatever.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Anthony » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:14 am

RiverDog wrote:RW has been so overwhelmingly clutch that, while plays like this one are frustrating, they certainly don't take away from who he truly is as a QB. He's gonna make the right decision much more often than not. People can ague or debate a point any way they want to. What's interesting is the focus and the importance placed on the situation. It cuts both ways, and the bottom line is Wilson is gonna win tons more games than he's gonna lose for us, including a SB(s), IMO.
EDIT: This by no means is a personal attack on you, RD. Looks like you and Anthony have had an intense debate going on, though admittingly I haven't read through the whole thing.


My comments about RW have been limited pretty much to this last game. I agree that he's going to make the right decision more times than he's going to make the wrong decision.

Anthony thinks I'm picking on Russell, and to some degree, he's right. Russell can play better than he did last Sunday, and he has to play better if we are going anywhere. I'm fully confident that he will. The debate that we're having is that he insists that I include other members of our team in my critical remarks. So long as my remarks conform to the general forum rules, no one's going to tell me what I should or should not be discussing.


Actually you missed my point entirely, it was not so much that you include others, but that if you are going to take such a hard line over the top stance that you might want to consider the other people involved, like the o-line, wr, run game, OC etc. MY main point all along has been you are going way over the top, as has been told to you by several others.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:25 am

Wilson's performances since being drafted have been on an uphill curve until the 49ers game. It seems to have leveled off since then. What surprises me is it didn't happen earlier - like early last year. Every QB goes through a rough patch and maybe this is one for him.
My observation is it seems in the last few games, he has made a few more uncharacteristically low percentage decisions of which the throw to Baldwin is one. This isn't uncorrectable in that it's a small change to his decision matrix, namely make the sure play, not the big play. I fully expect him to go back to what has been successful because of how hard he is when critiquing his own play.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Eaglehawk » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:36 am

NorthHawk wrote:Wilson's performances since being drafted have been on an uphill curve until the 49ers game. It seems to have leveled off since then. What surprises me is it didn't happen earlier - like early last year. Every QB goes through a rough patch and maybe this is one for him.
My observation is it seems in the last few games, he has made a few more uncharacteristically low percentage decisions of which the throw to Baldwin is one. This isn't uncorrectable in that it's a small change to his decision matrix, namely make the sure play, not the big play. I fully expect him to go back to what has been successful because of how hard he is when critiquing his own play.


PC calls RW the "Fixer" which means he is really adept at fixing things with his play. Let's see how he does this Sunday. He has run out of time.

Northhawk, one thing you said made shivers run down my spine, I bolded it. Suppose the "rough patch" as you called it lasts longer than these games? Most rough patches are not just a game or two, that I have observed anyway. Remember when Peyton had his bad stretch? Wasn't just two games as I remember. Anyway, let's see what happens here. Hope I didn't just jinx the guy.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:02 am

RW had a rough patch early in the season where he got picked a couple of times throwing late over the middle. I dont recall the games exactly, Carolina was one of them, but he corrected it. The Rams game on the road was rough in terms of moving the ball. But he was plaing better and better until the 9ers game. Hes been so lights out clutch its easy to forget hes just a young kid.

As for the play that has drawn RD's ire(Throw on 3rd and short) RW and PC are absolutely correct, as I was there and it happened right in front of me. The ball was spotted and the ref who spotted it indicated 1st down. Then it was moved backwards a half yard and re spotted. Its the same F up that occured in the Giants/Skins game earlier this season. Other than that particular play its really hard to see what is actually happening without hi def and replay. My brother watching at home told me the Hawks were getting screwed on spots all day and the Cards were getting very generous spots.

My bottom line is I have nothing but respect for these Hawks. This is one of the great Hawks teams of all time.They have fought their tails off to have the best record in the NFL, in spite of biased officiating, multiple injuries, suspensions,etc etc. They have put themselves where any team would want to be in week 17. At home with destiny firmly in their grasp. The worst thing that can happen is they get extra games, granted on the road where they went 6-2.

Now the officials? Ive always been wary of them. I completely lost any respect for tham after XL, and they have done nothing to redeem themselves in the 8 years since. Im convinced they are minions, league hacks who get wood from playing God.

Moving forward in this critical stretch of football I will deliver the same warning I did in early Feb 2006 in the run up to XL rooting for the least penalized team in the NFL. Watch the refs..............
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:08 am

Refereeing is bad for all teams. It's so bad even Steeler fans think they are getting jobbed.
The point is well taken, though. They have to leave no doubt so the bad calls have no impact on the final outcome.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby RiverDog » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:35 am

Anthony wrote:
RiverDog wrote:uhh the first thing she said was

"{Tim Hass says our receivers are mediocre & RW has been keeping it together and hiding the glaring weakness @ wideout."

That's a negative about our WRs and yet you focused on Rw.

Now that said What discussion would you like to have about our WR not being very good the last few games, or the horrible play calling or the porous o-line and mediocre run game. You see that is my problem with your outburst, yes Rw played bad, but 1 bad game in a season were he carried us, hid our weaknesses like when the o-lien was in shambles, and you want to lay in on as thick as you did. its pretty pathetic, heck Jacknuts in the other forum is being better about it then you and you know how anti Rw he is, but even he is like, okay he had a bad game, was bound to happen given how much we were asking of him and he believes he will bounce back, but you your off the hill on it.

Uhh, that wasn't the first thing she said. Go back and re-read the IP and you will see that it says as follows:

As predicted, the 12-3 Hawks are getting hammered in the media and as predicted, criticism of RW was waaay bigger than this game.

I've about had it with discussing this topic with you. Despite my pleas for you to stop, you continue to attack me, saying I'm "pretty pathetic", comparing me to another poster, etc. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, then fine, I'm game. But let's not go down the path of attacking each other personally.


Dude I never attacked you at all, I never called you names or anything, all I said was your going over the top with you rant about Rw. But hey whatever.


You compared me to Jacknut, an unpopular poster from the PI. You characterized my remarks as "pretty pathetic.". I'm asking you to discontinue with that type of tactic. It's not that I'm so over sensitive to those types of characterizations as much as I'd like to see this new forum encourage all points of view. You're trying to regulate the content of my remarks by insisting that I include in my criticism of RW criticism of other players.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Anthony » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:38 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Anthony wrote:
RiverDog wrote:uhh the first thing she said was

"{Tim Hass says our receivers are mediocre & RW has been keeping it together and hiding the glaring weakness @ wideout."

That's a negative about our WRs and yet you focused on Rw.

Now that said What discussion would you like to have about our WR not being very good the last few games, or the horrible play calling or the porous o-line and mediocre run game. You see that is my problem with your outburst, yes Rw played bad, but 1 bad game in a season were he carried us, hid our weaknesses like when the o-lien was in shambles, and you want to lay in on as thick as you did. its pretty pathetic, heck Jacknuts in the other forum is being better about it then you and you know how anti Rw he is, but even he is like, okay he had a bad game, was bound to happen given how much we were asking of him and he believes he will bounce back, but you your off the hill on it.

Uhh, that wasn't the first thing she said. Go back and re-read the IP and you will see that it says as follows:

As predicted, the 12-3 Hawks are getting hammered in the media and as predicted, criticism of RW was waaay bigger than this game.

I've about had it with discussing this topic with you. Despite my pleas for you to stop, you continue to attack me, saying I'm "pretty pathetic", comparing me to another poster, etc. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, then fine, I'm game. But let's not go down the path of attacking each other personally.


Dude I never attacked you at all, I never called you names or anything, all I said was your going over the top with you rant about Rw. But hey whatever.


You compared me to Jacknut, an unpopular poster from the PI. You characterized my remarks as "pretty pathetic.". I'm asking you to discontinue with that type of tactic. It's not that I'm so over sensitive to those types of characterizations as much as I'd like to see this new forum encourage all points of view. You're trying to regulate the content of my remarks by insisting that I include in my criticism of RW criticism of other players.



No I did not compare you to Jack nut I said "but what you are doing is boarding on Jacknut stuff." I did not call you Jacknut I said what you are doing is boarding on jacknut stuff, not you are jacknut, as to saying your remarks are pathetic huh so, that is still not a personal attack, did I call you names? NO, Did I say you were worthless? NO, all I said was you remarks were pathetic and lets look at the remarks, 1 of them was how you lost all respect for Rw, really tell me how that is not pathetic you lost respect for a guy because he made a mistake based on being given incorrect information, that is pathetic, and I would say it about myself if I did it too. But again I never called you a name, I never said we should ignore you, I have continued this conversation, so once again I think you are being over the top. I mean truth be told you have been very belligerent in this thread through out, however because it is you and I respect you I chose to ignore it. I mean another poster called you laughable that you lost all respect for Rw because of 1 play, hmm not complaining about them are you? So again I never attacked you, called you names, I disagreed with extreme stance on things, I never called you Jacknut I only said is boarding on something jacknut would do, I was hoping you would see just how over the top you were getting, but obviously that failed. All I will say I am sorry you took what I said wrong, but you are still way over the top.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Hawk Sista » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:46 pm

I see where you are coming from, RD. Just styles clashing but I think we feel about the same way. I certainly appreciate your perspective & don't mean to nag you. I sure hope the boys have an answer for the decreasing efficiency #s. This is an important week for them/us.

I was thinking more globally than RW in the original post, but realize there is an ebb/flow and the posts lead where they lead.

Anthony- I feel you too. There's no need to panic yet though... I really think we get er done this week. God, I hope!
Go hawks!
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:54 pm

I don't disagree with RD in this discussion.
I wouldn't have used the same words, but i think some of the 'mystique' or perhaps faith in RW not making bad decisions has been lost to a degree. He's young and only human after all.
That doesn't mean I don't believe he can lead the team to a championship but that he has to limit some of the questionable decisions like those of the last few weeks.

Regarding the Baldwin play that was the focus of a large part of this thread:
There was an old coach who admittedly hated the passing game who said when you throw the ball 3 things can happen - and 2 of them are bad.
Today's game is much different with a larger quotient of passing, but the coaches comment contains a nugget of truth in that a pass is riskier than a run.

Consider
For Seattle to complete that pass a number of things had to work perfectly.
1st the throw had to be accurate - it was
2nd Baldwin had to get both feet in bounds - he did
3rd the Referee had to confirm Baldwin had both feet in - with the calls we have seen this year we don't know.
4th the Defender didn't make a great play on the ball - he didn't
5th Baldwin had to keep control of the ball throughout the completion of the catch - he didn't.

For RW to run the following had to work perfectly.
1st He had to not trip over the hash marks
2nd He had to not lose control of the ball without contact.

If you believe there was a lot of room to run as I do, it's clear that the better decision was to pull it down and run. It also puts that aspect of RWs game into the heads of the Defense - and thus more pressure.

Pressure on the Defense seems to be RWs game and when he throttles that back it restricts his effectiveness. Making the safe play is also a big element of his success, in other words taking what the Defense is giving him. In this one play, it seems to me he forced it with bad results.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:09 am

NorthHawk wrote:I don't disagree with RD in this discussion.
I wouldn't have used the same words, but i think some of the 'mystique' or perhaps faith in RW not making bad decisions has been lost to a degree. He's young and only human after all.
That doesn't mean I don't believe he can lead the team to a championship but that he has to limit some of the questionable decisions like those of the last few weeks.

Regarding the Baldwin play that was the focus of a large part of this thread:
There was an old coach who admittedly hated the passing game who said when you throw the ball 3 things can happen - and 2 of them are bad.
Today's game is much different with a larger quotient of passing, but the coaches comment contains a nugget of truth in that a pass is riskier than a run.

Consider
For Seattle to complete that pass a number of things had to work perfectly.
1st the throw had to be accurate - it was
2nd Baldwin had to get both feet in bounds - he did
3rd the Referee had to confirm Baldwin had both feet in - with the calls we have seen this year we don't know.
4th the Defender didn't make a great play on the ball - he didn't
5th Baldwin had to keep control of the ball throughout the completion of the catch - he didn't.

For RW to run the following had to work perfectly.
1st He had to not trip over the hash marks
2nd He had to not lose control of the ball without contact.

If you believe there was a lot of room to run as I do, it's clear that the better decision was to pull it down and run. It also puts that aspect of RWs game into the heads of the Defense - and thus more pressure.

Pressure on the Defense seems to be RWs game and when he throttles that back it restricts his effectiveness. Making the safe play is also a big element of his success, in other words taking what the Defense is giving him. In this one play, it seems to me he forced it with bad results.


The old coach you referred to that hated the passing game was Woody Hayes. His motto was more like three yards and a cloud of dust.

Good breakdown on RW's decision on that one play. Hopefully he's analyzed it like you have. The only thing I'd disagree with is his pass. IMO he didn't have to throw it so far out of bounds. The defender was a couple steps behind Baldwin. He could have thrown it a little bit towards the playing field side so that Baldwin didn't have to lay out for it. But it was still a catchable pass.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Hawk Sista » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:51 am

I feel like I need to make a clarifying point. This thread was started as a reaction to the overreaction from the media, some fans in here, and the Niner nation after a the loss and declining efficiency. While I get there are some warts, we are in the toughest division in football & have one of the best records in franchise history. Trust me, I was not completely satisfied w/ the Giant game because we left a lot out there. W/ increased efficiency on 3rd & in the Red Zone and a few better decisions, that game is easily 40-zip. The Niner loss was tough to take too, but the Cardinal debacle was just that. I knew as I watched it unfold that we would see 1/3 of the believers jump ship.

That happened on Monday am when pundits claimed RW had been off for 5 games. FIVE!!! WTH? Two of those 5 games were amongst his finest as a pro, one was an above average performance in a close road loss against a bitter rival w/ a great D, one was a game that was decided by our D in the 1st quarter (where RW didn't even finish the game we were so far ahead) and the final of the 5 games was the crappiest game in RWs short career. My frustration is that popularity of polarization to make things more interesting. It's all or nothing... We are the best or we suck. This polarizing commentary is lazy, IMHO. Instead of a heady discussion about what is happening, the all too predictable overreaction has become the norm.

I don't disagree that there is a story in the decreased efficiency, RWs shocking play, Haushka's misqueues. Etc. I just hate the "that's it, the Hawks are overrated" headlines. My reaction to RD was more of continued frustration at the polarizing stance he took about losing respect for RW (since edited down to disappointment) on the 3rd & 1. It's a fast paced game, and one official signaled 1st down.

I am not making excuses for RW, Beast, or hell... Even the D on that last drive. I did not blame the refs, though it was tough not to. It was simply a shabby performance. RWs passes were off. . The almost TD that ended in nothing was unusually off target. The Rams are a tough matchup for us. It'll be tough to right the ship with Long & Quinn in his face all day. The last thing we need is another 7 sack 7 1st down performance. I'm hoping and praying that they all learned from that. Jeff Fisher is a hell of a coach though.

I HATE losing in a casual poker game with friends. I can't imagine how Russ felt after performing like he did and being a key factor in the first loss at the Clink since 2011. Pete, RW, Earl & co. will be fueled by it. Let's see how smart they are.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:04 am

Hawk Sista wrote:I feel like I need to make a clarifying point. This thread was started as a reaction to the overreaction from the media, some fans in here, and the Niner nation after a the loss and declining efficiency. While I get there are some warts, we are in the toughest division in football & have one of the best records in franchise history. Trust me, I was not completely satisfied w/ the Giant game because we left a lot out there. W/ increased efficiency on 3rd & in the Red Zone and a few better decisions, that game is easily 40-zip. The Niner loss was tough to take too, but the Cardinal debacle was just that. I knew as I watched it unfold that we would see 1/3 of the believers jump ship.

That happened on Monday am when pundits claimed RW had been off for 5 games. FIVE!!! WTH? Two of those 5 games were amongst his finest as a pro, one was an above average performance in a close road loss against a bitter rival w/ a great D, one was a game that was decided by our D in the 1st quarter (where RW didn't even finish the game we were so far ahead) and the final of the 5 games was the crappiest game in RWs short career. My frustration is that popularity of polarization to make things more interesting. It's all or nothing... We are the best or we suck. This polarizing commentary is lazy, IMHO. Instead of a heady discussion about what is happening, the all too predictable overreaction has become the norm.

I don't disagree that there is a story in the decreased efficiency, RWs shocking play, Haushka's misqueues. Etc. I just hate the "that's it, the Hawks are overrated" headlines. My reaction to RD was more of continued frustration at the polarizing stance he took about losing respect for RW (since edited down to disappointment) on the 3rd & 1. It's a fast paced game, and one official signaled 1st down.

I am not making excuses for RW, Beast, or hell... Even the D on that last drive. I did not blame the refs, though it was tough not to. It was simply a shabby performance. RWs passes were off. . The almost TD that ended in nothing was unusually off target. The Rams are a tough matchup for us. It'll be tough to right the ship with Long & Quinn in his face all day. The last thing we need is another 7 sack 7 1st down performance. I'm hoping and praying that they all learned from that. Jeff Fisher is a hell of a coach though.

I HATE losing in a casual poker game with friends. I can't imagine how Russ felt after performing like he did and being a key factor in the first loss at the Clink since 2011. Pete, RW, Earl & co. will be fueled by it. Let's see how smart they are.


Anyone that claims RW had a poor outing vs. the Saints ought to be committed to an insane asylum. Without reviewing the stats, I think he had something like 300 yards passing in the first half alone, finished with a 130 or so passer rating, plus the most important stat of them all... we won, and won big. I'd give him an A+.

I had some issues with his performance in the Niners game. We debated one at quite great length, his decision to take a timeout in the 2nd half on 2nd and 25. But considering it was a road game and the strength of the Niners defense, he played well enough for us to win. C+, maybe.

The defense played so well in the Giants game that Russell didn't have to play well, just be a good game manager and don't do anything that would put the defense in a bad position. I'd give him a B.

The Cards game was a horrible performance by RW, both in terms of his decision making and his throwing accuracy. It was perhaps his worst game as a pro. The only saving grace was that he only turned the ball over once. I'd give him a D.

Throw out the Cards game and he hasn't played all that badly, better than most quarterbacks IMO.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Eaglehawk » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:10 am

Just curious RD, under what circumstances would RW get an A from you.
Or maybe an A-.

;)
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:13 am

Eaglehawk wrote:Just curious RD, under what circumstances would RW get an A from you.
Or maybe an A-.

;)


See my comment above about the New Orleans game. I gave him an A+.
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Re: Pundits calling us out

Postby Anthony » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:25 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Hawk Sista wrote:I feel like I need to make a clarifying point. This thread was started as a reaction to the overreaction from the media, some fans in here, and the Niner nation after a the loss and declining efficiency. While I get there are some warts, we are in the toughest division in football & have one of the best records in franchise history. Trust me, I was not completely satisfied w/ the Giant game because we left a lot out there. W/ increased efficiency on 3rd & in the Red Zone and a few better decisions, that game is easily 40-zip. The Niner loss was tough to take too, but the Cardinal debacle was just that. I knew as I watched it unfold that we would see 1/3 of the believers jump ship.

That happened on Monday am when pundits claimed RW had been off for 5 games. FIVE!!! WTH? Two of those 5 games were amongst his finest as a pro, one was an above average performance in a close road loss against a bitter rival w/ a great D, one was a game that was decided by our D in the 1st quarter (where RW didn't even finish the game we were so far ahead) and the final of the 5 games was the crappiest game in RWs short career. My frustration is that popularity of polarization to make things more interesting. It's all or nothing... We are the best or we suck. This polarizing commentary is lazy, IMHO. Instead of a heady discussion about what is happening, the all too predictable overreaction has become the norm.

I don't disagree that there is a story in the decreased efficiency, RWs shocking play, Haushka's misqueues. Etc. I just hate the "that's it, the Hawks are overrated" headlines. My reaction to RD was more of continued frustration at the polarizing stance he took about losing respect for RW (since edited down to disappointment) on the 3rd & 1. It's a fast paced game, and one official signaled 1st down.

I am not making excuses for RW, Beast, or hell... Even the D on that last drive. I did not blame the refs, though it was tough not to. It was simply a shabby performance. RWs passes were off. . The almost TD that ended in nothing was unusually off target. The Rams are a tough matchup for us. It'll be tough to right the ship with Long & Quinn in his face all day. The last thing we need is another 7 sack 7 1st down performance. I'm hoping and praying that they all learned from that. Jeff Fisher is a hell of a coach though.

I HATE losing in a casual poker game with friends. I can't imagine how Russ felt after performing like he did and being a key factor in the first loss at the Clink since 2011. Pete, RW, Earl & co. will be fueled by it. Let's see how smart they are.


Anyone that claims RW had a poor outing vs. the Saints ought to be committed to an insane asylum. Without reviewing the stats, I think he had something like 300 yards passing in the first half alone, finished with a 130 or so passer rating, plus the most important stat of them all... we won, and won big. I'd give him an A+.

I had some issues with his performance in the Niners game. We debated one at quite great length, his decision to take a timeout in the 2nd half on 2nd and 25. But considering it was a road game and the strength of the Niners defense, he played well enough for us to win. C+, maybe.

The defense played so well in the Giants game that Russell didn't have to play well, just be a good game manager and don't do anything that would put the defense in a bad position. I'd give him a B.

The Cards game was a horrible performance by RW, both in terms of his decision making and his throwing accuracy. It was perhaps his worst game as a pro. The only saving grace was that he only turned the ball over once. I'd give him a D.

Throw out the Cards game and he hasn't played all that badly, better than most quarterbacks IMO.


Agreed about the NO game RW stats were

310 yards, 10.3 avg, 73% comp rate, 3 tds, 94.7 QBR, 139.6 Rating, and he was the leading rusher with 47 yards and 5.9 avg. Not sure he could have played any better, and most importantly the last time we used the whole play book and the play calling was wide open.

I can even pretty much agree with your assessments on most of the other games, and not debating his worse game was against AZ but I still think between play calling, WR not getting any separation, drops, and no run game it was to be expected.
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