A Peaceful Transition

[I-5]

I guess we can be assured, the emergency meeting between the Michigan GOP leaders in Washington DC at Trump's request is about Covid-19, not the election, according to the White House. Anyone interested in buying a bridge from me?

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/20/trump-meeting-gop-leaders-covid-19-election-results/6357607002/

[Aseahawkfan]

I disagree completely. Even if you take a vaccine with a 95% efficacy as has been reported does not prevent you from acquiring the virus. There is still a 5% chance that you will get sick from it and become a spreader. The more people that get vaccinated, the less probability for that 1 out of 20 individual will pass it to someone else. The virus cannot find a host and dies on the vine. That's how we eradicated polio, through a very aggressive vaccination program.

Please point to me in the Constitution where it is that you have a right to refuse taking a vaccine? How is the government able to dodge those rights for those serving in the military? Did they sign them away during their enlistment? If you are convicted of a crime, do you lose your right to refuse a vaccine?

If you have ever drank water out of a tap or a drinking fountain, then someone has put chlorine and perhaps fluoride into your body without your knowing or approving of it. I see no difference between that and making a vaccine mandatory.

I wouldn't propose to make taking the vaccine mandatory forever, perhaps sunset it after 2 years. Once the crisis has past, when hospitals get back to normal, when we've developed more effective measures to treat those infected with it, then I would be OK doing away with the mandatory part. Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures.

Stop using ridiculous logic. If it is only 95% effective, then 18 million people will still get it and spread it. Then what? You go by 95% again? This is a vaccine produced in under a year for a normally 10 to 20 year drug development cycle that people are already going to afraid to take to start with. If you mandate it, you will ramp that fear to 150 and tear the nation apart. It would be a complete idiot move to mandate the vaccine and only a total moron would even attempt it.

Sometimes your inability to admit when you are wrong and reverse course is taken to a ridiculous level. You are flat out wrong on this and I'm glad I haven't heard Biden or any major politician pushing this ridiculous idea.

I won't take the vaccine if it is made mandatory. Our Constitution supports individual liberty. That includes a right not to inject something into my body. You try to force this on people at your own risk. If you understood the Constitution then it should be quite clear that the Bill of Rights was not put in place to cover all aspects of liberty and injecting something in your body created by a corporation certainly falls under freedom if something like abortion or slavery are against the Constitution.

None of the examples you use preclude me from choosing to drink water from another source. The government cannot force you to eat, drink, or anything you don't want to do that isn't harming others. It is all voluntary with penalties if you choose not to. You try to enforce vaccination, give it a shot using the police and military. I truly want to see you do it. I really, really, really want to see you do it.

Your arguments are extremely weak. You will be wrong in this regard legally and ethically. I will make that bet easily right now that there will be no mandate.

I am surprised you feel that you are ethically allowed to push this stance while claiming you have rights at all. If you feel you can push on a population a vaccine produced in 9 months that has never been done in history on a population by force, you have lost your mind more than I could have imagined, Riverdog. This is a vaccine created in 9 months with emergency use authorization that you would have the government enforce on people at gun point or risk firing them from their jobs. It is unbelievable the tyranny you think is ok to inflict on already frightened Americans.

[Aseahawkfan]

Oh, come off it! There's not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

December 14th we will know for sure. My friends are praying.

[RiverDog]

Our Constitution supports individual liberty. That includes a right not to inject something into my body.

So how is it that the government can treat our drinking water with chlorine and fluoride? What's the difference between ingesting something through your mouth that the government has put in your drinking water and poking you with a needle? How is it that Cbob can be given vaccinations he did not consent to simply because he volunteered to serve his country? How can our public schools require that any student in attendance has to have been vaccinated against polio and small pox as I was?

[RiverDog]

I guess we can be assured, the emergency meeting between the Michigan GOP leaders in Washington DC at Trump's request is about Covid-19, not the election, according to the White House. Anyone interested in buying a bridge from me?

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politi ... 357607002/

Which bridge? Name your price.

Here's the latest on the meeting between Trump and Michigan Republicans:

“We will follow the law and follow the normal process regarding Michigan’s electors, just as we have said throughout this election,” Michigan Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey (R) and Speaker of the House Lee Chatfield (R) said in a joint statement issued late Friday.

But even after a personal invitation to the White House by the president, the state’s top two GOP lawmakers notably did not endorse his (Trump's) baseless claims of widespread fraud in the state and instead said they used the meeting to press Trump for more coronavirus relief funds.

“We have not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election in Michigan,” Shirkey and Chatfield said in their joint statement.

“Michigan’s certification process should be a deliberate process free from threats and intimidation,” they added. “Allegations of fraudulent behavior should be taken seriously, thoroughly investigated, and if proven, prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And the candidates who win the most votes win elections and Michigan’s electoral votes. These are simple truths that should provide confidence in our elections.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

[Aseahawkfan]

So how is it that the government can treat our drinking water with chlorine and fluoride? What's the difference between ingesting something through your mouth that the government has put in your drinking water and poking you with a needle? How is it that Cbob can be given vaccinations he did not consent to simply because he volunteered to serve his country? How can our public schools require that any student in attendance has to have been vaccinated against polio and small pox as I was?

Because joining the military is voluntary. You can choose not to join the military and sign away your Constitutional rights. Just like you sign away your ability to support a particular candidate publically and do a lot of things when you join the military. Because drinking tap water is voluntary. You can buy bottled water. You can build a well. You can pay for an alternate water system. A lot of people avoid tap water and buy water specifically without chlorine or fluoride.

Look, before we go off on any more tangents, I want you to know I am not anti-vaccine. I want this vaccine to work. I want people to adopt it and use it. I will even use it myself once it is clear we have enough for everyone if the cases aren't dropping and we're out of the woods. I read up on how to manage my immune system and have had this COVID19 managing my way through it. I know my immune system can handle it if I do what I know to do to recover from sickness and I won't take vaccine from people who are higher risk.

That being said a government mandate would slow adoption of the vaccine, not improve it. It would immediately start a legal and political war in the nation that would cause a huge release of information by lawyers fighting against the vaccine mandate that would undermine it. It might slow adoption by months or years if mandated. That would suck.

I know we're all tired of this COVID19 environment, lockdowns, and the fear. But we don't need to drop the ball or make things worse at the end of all this with a vaccine mandate, the politicization of a vaccine mandate, and the ensuing legal and political battles. I assure you if this vaccine is successful it will sell itself and people will take it as fast as it is produced. People are tired of these lockdowns, no jobs, and all the crap associated with the lockdowns. If this is effective, people will rush to it like starving people to a meal.

I don't mean to get a little pissy with you, but I'm working a lot of lately and been on edge from this environment. I know you don't support government tyranny and you just hate and fear this whole situation with a daughter in healthcare and a wife with underlying issues. Don't worry, it's going to be adopted without a mandate as fast as they can produce it. They'll surely be some grousing from the usual suspects, but even they will eventually take it if the data continues to be good and things re-open. People want life to return to normal and if this vaccine offers that, they'll be waiting in lines to get the vaccine.

[c_hawkbob]

But even after a personal invitation to the White House by the president, the state’s top two GOP lawmakers notably did not endorse his (Trump's) baseless claims of widespread fraud in the state and instead said they used the meeting to press Trump for more coronavirus relief funds.

“We have not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election in Michigan,” Shirkey and Chatfield said in their joint statement.

As expected. Which is exactly why no one was saying he'd be successful. Having failed does not not mean the idea wasn't pitched to them.

I found it funny as hell that at the last moment he tried to claim that he summoned them to the Whitehouse to discuss Covid 19.

[RiverDog]

Because joining the military is voluntary. You can choose not to join the military and sign away your Constitutional rights. Just like you sign away your ability to support a particular candidate publically and do a lot of things when you join the military. Because drinking tap water is voluntary. You can buy bottled water. You can build a well. You can pay for an alternate water system. A lot of people avoid tap water and buy water specifically without chlorine or fluoride.

You do not sign away your Constitutional rights by joining the military:

In light of the Supreme Court's ruling in Wilson v. GirardJ1 which upheld a waiver by military authorities of jurisdiction to try a serviceman for a homicide committed in Japan, the subcommittee investigated the extent to which the rights of servicemen are abridged when they are stationed abroad and so become subject, in some degree, to the jurisdiction of foreign governments. Also, the subcommittee has studied the implications of constitutional limitations enunciated in cases, such as Reid v. CovertJ2 Kinsella v. Singlet~n,~and iMcElroy v. G~agliardo.~These cases invalidated the provisions of article 2 of the Uniform Code of IVIilitary J~stice,~ which purport to authorize trial by court-martial of military dependents and employees accompanying the Armed Forces overseas in time of peace;

Look, before we go off on any more tangents, I want you to know I am not anti-vaccine. I want this vaccine to work. I want people to adopt it and use it. I will even use it myself once it is clear we have enough for everyone if the cases aren't dropping and we're out of the woods. I read up on how to manage my immune system and have had this COVID19 managing my way through it. I know my immune system can handle it if I do what I know to do to recover from sickness and I won't take vaccine from people who are higher risk.

That being said a government mandate would slow adoption of the vaccine, not improve it. It would immediately start a legal and political war in the nation that would cause a huge release of information by lawyers fighting against the vaccine mandate that would undermine it. It might slow adoption by months or years if mandated. That would suck.

I agree, and I am not encouraging the government to adapt a mandatory vaccination program given the current conditions our country is currently afflicted with. It would be a PR disaster, and could do more harm than good. My point is that you are assuming rights that you do not have. Our government is well within their authority, as they are when they issue a compulsory draft, to compel their citizens to act in a certain manner.

I don't mean to get a little pissy with you, but I'm working a lot of lately and been on edge from this environment. I know you don't support government tyranny and you just hate and fear this whole situation with a daughter in healthcare and a wife with underlying issues. Don't worry, it's going to be adopted without a mandate as fast as they can produce it. They'll surely be some grousing from the usual suspects, but even they will eventually take it if the data continues to be good and things re-open. People want life to return to normal and if this vaccine offers that, they'll be waiting in lines to get the vaccine.

No sweat about your getting pissy. I regard these discussions as an intellectual exercise. Despite our differences, I still regard you as one of my better online friends, as I do others that post here regularly. It's all good.

[RiverDog]

Having failed does not not mean the idea wasn't pitched to them.

Oh, I have no doubt that the subject was brought up in one form or another. But it's not a crime to simply broach the subject. If Trump were to offer some sort of bribe, attempt to coerce them to do something illegal, than that would be a crime.

I found it funny as hell that at the last moment he tried to claim that he summoned them to the Whitehouse to discuss Covid 19.

Yeah, me, too. I wonder if Trump offered them a swig of Clorox.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.thehour.com/news/article/Th ... 744686.php

hindsight is 2020

[I-5]

I found it funny as hell that at the last moment he tried to claim that he summoned them to the Whitehouse to discuss Covid 19.

Good thing he waited until the pandemic was out of control to invite them to talk about Covid-19. Next up, Pennsylvannia GOP leaders!

https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/pennsylvania/pa-gop-lawmakers-expected-to-meet-with-trump/article_546bdce8-2ba3-11eb-af1a-dbea9cceec8b.html

[Hawktawk]

I'm just afraid when he's exhausted it all the bombs will start flying and who is gonna stop him. The man is desperate and crazy.

[RiverDog]

I'm just afraid when he's exhausted it all the bombs will start flying and who is gonna stop him. The man is desperate and crazy.

You thought that the bombs were going to start flying a long time ago, and they didn't.

There are a number of safeguards to prevent what you're talking about from happening. It's not as if Trump has his finger directly on the button. A certain set of conditions have to be in place in order to launch an attack, and our military leaders have already said that they will not obey an illegal order.

Chill out, bro! We're less than two months from ridding ourselves of that POS.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-pushes-legislatures-overturn-election-085053399.html

Trump is ridiculous. Because of this narcissistic idiot I have to watch this election play out until January. Hopefully once December 14th goes and they haven't seeded the electoral college with faithless electors, he will finally accept he has lost. But who knows with this total selfish, ridiculous, narcissistic idiot.

I am starting to reach much higher levels of hate for Trump than I have had previously. He is really starting to piss me off. Am I really going to have purchase a weapon and prepare for a fight because this idiot can't accept he lost an election? For real? This narcissistic scumbag is so unable to accept losing he is trying to pull every scumbag, dictator like option to retake the election and expecting everyone to go along with it?

I had better see the GOP start stepping up after December 14th to send the message to Trump that the Republican Party isn't planning to support this scumbag and tear apart the nation during a global pandemic because this dumb mfer's ego can't take an election loss.

Normally I wouldn't post the Huff Post, but this is them reposting Trump's idiot tweets. I am really starting to hate Trump.

[RiverDog]

Trump is ridiculous. Because of this narcissistic idiot I have to watch this election play out until January. Hopefully once December 14th goes and they haven't seeded the electoral college with faithless electors, he will finally accept he has lost. But who knows with this total selfish, ridiculous, narcissistic idiot.

There's less of a chance of Trump flipping 36 electors than there is that Hawktalk's bombs will start flying.

Tomorrow is a big day. Both Pennsylvania and Michigan are expected to certify their results. Nevada certifies theirs on Tuesday.

I am starting to reach much higher levels of hate for Trump than I have had previously. He is really starting to piss me off. Am I really going to have purchase a weapon and prepare for a fight because this idiot can't accept he lost an election? For real? This narcissistic scumbag is so unable to accept losing he is trying to pull every scumbag, dictator like option to retake the election and expecting everyone to go along with it?

All he's doing is cementing his place in American history as the absolute worst POTUS.

I had better see the GOP start stepping up after December 14th to send the message to Trump that the Republican Party isn't planning to support this scumbag and tear apart the nation during a global pandemic because this dumb mfer's ego can't take an election loss.

Normally I wouldn't post the Huff Post, but this is them reposting Trump's idiot tweets. I am really starting to hate Trump.

Day by day, as Trump's legal challenges are exhausted, more and more Republicans are jumping ship. The Michigan contingent he invited to the White House is a good example. One of his staunch supporters in Gov. Brian Kemp just certified Georgia's election. The end of the road is near.

[Aseahawkfan]

Day by day, as Trump's legal challenges are exhausted, more and more Republicans are jumping ship. The Michigan contingent he invited to the White House is a good example. One of his staunch supporters in Gov. Brian Kemp just certified Georgia's election. The end of the road is near.

Any GOP that don't fully turn against Trump once the December 14th vote occurs, they are just treasonous scum at that point.

[RiverDog]

Any GOP that don't fully turn against Trump once the December 14th vote occurs, they are just treasonous scum at that point.

We need to quit throwing around the word "treason". Call it unAmerican or undemocratic but it's not treason unless we are at war.

But I do agree that the longer the R's hold out and don't acknowledge Joe Biden as the duly elected POTUS, the worse they look.

[c_hawkbob]

Any GOP that don't fully turn against Trump once the December 14th vote occurs, they are just treasonous scum at that point.

We need to quit throwing around the word "treason". Call it unAmerican or undemocratic but it's not treason unless we are at war.

But I do agree that the longer the R's hold out and don't acknowledge Joe Biden as the duly elected POTUS, the worse they look.

Maybe you just need to let go of your rigidly narrow definition of the word.

[Aseahawkfan]

We need to quit throwing around the word "treason". Call it unAmerican or undemocratic but it's not treason unless we are at war.

But I do agree that the longer the R's hold out and don't acknowledge Joe Biden as the duly elected POTUS, the worse they look.

If undermining legal elections is not treasonous and threatening to rouse your followers into some kind of Civil War is not treasonous, then what do you call it? Explain to me a president who is not accepting the results of election, is pushing to undermine confidence in American elections, and is looking for ways to overturn a legal election up to and including seeding the electoral college with faithless electors? What do you call that then? He's just a sore loser?

If he is able to somehow a able to subvert this election by seeding the electoral college with faithless electors, what is he at that point?

I get what you're saying as far as the Constitution limits treason charges to a few specific events, but I would happily add subverting legal elections to the treason clause to take care of Trump or anyone would attempt this in the future be they Democrat or Republican. Any attempt to subvert legal elections in America to maintain power should be an extremely serious crime.

[RiverDog]

We need to quit throwing around the word "treason". Call it unAmerican or undemocratic but it's not treason unless we are at war.

But I do agree that the longer the R's hold out and don't acknowledge Joe Biden as the duly elected POTUS, the worse they look.

If undermining legal elections is not treasonous and threatening to rouse your followers into some kind of Civil War is not treasonous, then what do you call it? Explain to me a president who is not accepting the results of election, is pushing to undermine confidence in American elections, and is looking for ways to overturn a legal election up to and including seeding the electoral college with faithless electors? What do you call that then? He's just a sore loser?

It's unethical, un-American, and undemocratic. His behavior is outrageous. He's been walking a very fine edge in what he's apparently been contemplating. It's extremely serious and I'm not trying to downplay it. My argument is mostly about semantics. I am not defending him or his actions.

[RiverDog]

Despite Trump's efforts, Michigan certified their election results this afternoon, affirming Joe Biden as the winner of the state's 16 electoral votes:

Mchigan’s board of canvassers certified the state’s election results on Monday, throwing another roadblock in President Donald Trump’s ongoing effort to challenge the results of the 2020 election.

Republican member Norman D. Shinkle abstained in the board’s vote to certify the results. But his fellow Republican member Aaron Van Langevelde voted for certification, as did Democrats Jeannette Bradshaw and Julie Matuzak. With the 3-0 vote, the board certified the official results for President-elect Joe Biden on Monday afternoon, delivering him the state’s 16 electoral votes.

“As John Adams once said, ‘We are a government of laws, not men,’” said Van Langevelde before he cast his vote certifying the results. “This board needs to adhere to that principle here today and comply with our legal duty to certify this election.”

https://time.com/5915060/michigan-penns ... ump-biden/

[RiverDog]

And now, the GSA has just said that Biden's transition team can start working with the current administration on a range of issues:

A key Trump administration appointee said Monday she would allow President-elect Joe Biden to begin his official transition – paving the way for his team to get access to briefings, office space, secure computers and other government services needed for the transfer of power.

It marked a formal recognition by the Trump administration that Biden won the Nov. 3 election, even though the president has refused to concede and continues to make baseless allegations of voter fraud.

Perhaps more importantly, Biden's team will now automatically have access to briefings from key federal agencies, including information on the COVID response and the plans for a vaccine rollout.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 226527002/

One by one, the pins are beginning to fall.

[Aseahawkfan]

It is done. Trump has finally come to his senses. The transition has been authorized. It is over. Good. Someone with some power forced this move or Trump realized what he was doing was causing his own base to turn on him. Either way it is done.

[RiverDog]

It is done. Trump has finally come to his senses. The transition has been authorized. It is over. Good. Someone with some power forced this move or Trump realized what he was doing was causing his own base to turn on him. Either way it is done.

Trump's refusal to cooperate with the transition efforts would have cost lives as it would have slowed the coronavirus response at a critical time as we will soon start distributing millions of doses of 3 or 4 different vaccines with different shipping and storage requirements.

[c_hawkbob]

Would have? It DID! It just would have continued to.

[RiverDog]

Would have? It DID! It just would have continued to.

I'm not sure how much of an effect Trump's refusal had. Biden himself seemed to downplay it, at least initially. We're still over 8 weeks away from the actual transfer of power. How much advance time do they need?

[RiverDog]

I read an opinion piece out of the NYT which explains why I wasn't nearly as concerned that we would have anything less than a 'peaceful transition' than some of my friends were:

At times, a president can seem all-powerful, and Trump’s presidency had an especially consuming quality to it, for both his supporters and detractors. Even members of Congress, especially Republicans, liked to claim during the past four years that they were powerless to change Trump’s behavior.

But that’s not how the U.S. government really works. As Matt Glassman, a Georgetown University political scientist, has told me: “Presidents compete with numerous actors — Congress, the courts, interest groups, political appointees in the departments and agencies, and career civil servants — for influence over public policy. The president must rely on his informal ability to convince other political actors it is in their interest to go along with him, or at least not stand in his way.”

When a president fails to do so, he often ends up being powerless to act. And that’s what happened to Trump. Hundreds of local election officials refused to bend to him. Over the past few days, several congressional Republicans publicly told him that he needed to acknowledge reality. (Many other congressional Republicans were only mildly supportive of him, giving credence to his lies but doing nothing concrete to support his efforts to change the result.) Business groups — traditional Republican allies — also told him to begin the transition.

In the end, Trump did as they told him to do.

[Aseahawkfan]

I read an opinion piece out of the NYT which explains why I wasn't nearly as concerned that we would have anything less than a 'peaceful transition' than some of my friends were:

At times, a president can seem all-powerful, and Trump’s presidency had an especially consuming quality to it, for both his supporters and detractors. Even members of Congress, especially Republicans, liked to claim during the past four years that they were powerless to change Trump’s behavior.

But that’s not how the U.S. government really works. As Matt Glassman, a Georgetown University political scientist, has told me: “Presidents compete with numerous actors — Congress, the courts, interest groups, political appointees in the departments and agencies, and career civil servants — for influence over public policy. The president must rely on his informal ability to convince other political actors it is in their interest to go along with him, or at least not stand in his way.”

When a president fails to do so, he often ends up being powerless to act. And that’s what happened to Trump. Hundreds of local election officials refused to bend to him. Over the past few days, several congressional Republicans publicly told him that he needed to acknowledge reality. (Many other congressional Republicans were only mildly supportive of him, giving credence to his lies but doing nothing concrete to support his efforts to change the result.) Business groups — traditional Republican allies — also told him to begin the transition.

In the end, Trump did as they told him to do.

Finally he did.

[RiverDog]

I don't know if you can believe anything that Donald Trump says, but yesterday he committed to leaving office if the Electoral College votes him out:

President Donald Trump acknowledged for the first time Thursday that he would leave the White House if the Electoral College votes – as it will – to make Democrat Joe Biden the next president, but said it would be “very hard” to concede the contest.

“Certainly I will, and you know that,” Trump told reporters at the White House on Thursday when asked if he would leave the presidency once Biden is formally chosen by the electors. Taking questions from reporters for the first time since he lost the Nov. 3 election to Biden, Trump used the Thanksgiving appearance to level a new round of baseless claims about voting fraud, arguing without evidence that Republicans were “robbed.”

Though he indicated he would continue to fight the outcome in states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan, Trump's remarks were the first time he recognized the need for a peaceful handover of power. States must certify their votes before the Electoral College meets on Dec. 14 -- many already have -- and resolve all challenges to the outcome by Dec. 8.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 430438002/

The next red letter date is Dec. 8th, a week from next Tuesday, the "safe harbor" deadline after which all state certified election results are protected from legal challenge, followed by the actual Electoral Vote the following Monday, Dec. 14th.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't know if you can believe anything that Donald Trump says, but yesterday he committed to leaving office if the Electoral College votes him out:

President Donald Trump acknowledged for the first time Thursday that he would leave the White House if the Electoral College votes – as it will – to make Democrat Joe Biden the next president, but said it would be “very hard” to concede the contest.

“Certainly I will, and you know that,” Trump told reporters at the White House on Thursday when asked if he would leave the presidency once Biden is formally chosen by the electors. Taking questions from reporters for the first time since he lost the Nov. 3 election to Biden, Trump used the Thanksgiving appearance to level a new round of baseless claims about voting fraud, arguing without evidence that Republicans were “robbed.”

Though he indicated he would continue to fight the outcome in states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan, Trump's remarks were the first time he recognized the need for a peaceful handover of power. States must certify their votes before the Electoral College meets on Dec. 14 -- many already have -- and resolve all challenges to the outcome by Dec. 8.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 430438002/

The next red letter date is Dec. 8th, a week from next Tuesday, the "safe harbor" deadline after which all state certified election results are protected from legal challenge, followed by the actual Electoral Vote the following Monday, Dec. 14th.

Oh gee. How magnanimous of him to agree to leave once he is confirmed to have lost by the electoral college. Sarcasm as deep as The Grand Canyon should be noted.

He's waiting like myself and many Americans to see if Faithless Electors engage in some shenanigans that he can build on. Something I don't think any president previously has tried, but I haven't fully investigated. December 14th. About 2 and a half weeks.

[Hawktawk]

Oh gee. How magnanimous of him to agree to leave once he is confirmed to have lost by the electoral college. Sarcasm as deep as The Grand Canyon should be noted.

He's waiting like myself and many Americans to see if Faithless Electors engage in some shenanigans that he can build on. Something I don't think any president previously has tried, but I haven't fully investigated. December 14th. About 2 and a half weeks.

Right? He said we were gonna see his taxes too, 5 years ago. Now his new line is "Biden has to prove he won those ridiculous 80 million votes to become president". I rule nothing out. Incredibly I hear the Senate majority leader say yesterday "there will be a peaceful transition of power from this administration to the next and WHAT WE SAY ABOUT IT MAKES VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE".
No it makes a HUGE difference alright you miserable scumbag swamp creature. You could start by acknowledging your supposed friend Joe Biden has won, refer to him as president elect instead of refusing to even grant him the courtesy. You could counsel people like "little Marco" he really is, trump had that right, trashing Bidens cabinet picks before his majority leader has even conceded you foul stink bloated turkey jowl. Repulsive. Its no wonder kentucky is one of the poorest states in the country with this power mad jackass in power.

A peaceful transition has already not happened.Its too late. It is not a normal peaceful transition by any stretch of the imagination when Trump is sending dog whistles to electors to subvert democracy and calling Georgia's republican Sec of state "the enemy of the people".

It's been far and away the most abnormal transition ever in modern history other than 2000 .And there is no end in sight. And there was good excuse for that not to mention basic civility throughout the process and a clear concession when the SCOTUS ruled.
Hopefully on Jan 20 there will be a peaceful transfer of POWER but the peaceful transition thing is long since out the window.

[c_hawkbob]

Now the Repubs are saying there IS NO "Safe Harbor" and are refusing to certify the election results ... still think it's nothing Riv? I mean, this was supposed to be the day wasn't it? All supposed to be over today?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/as-biden-pas ... 57668.html

[Aseahawkfan]

Now the Repubs are saying there IS NO "Safe Harbor" and are refusing to certify the election results ... still think it's nothing Riv? I mean, this was supposed to be the day wasn't it? All supposed to be over today?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/as-biden-pas ... 57668.html

I didn't say that. I believe it is on December 14th. We'll see if Trump and his cronies can manipulate the electoral college. I doubt they can, but who knows in these looney times.

[RiverDog]

still think it's nothing Riv?

Yup.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yup.

Hypothetically, what would you do if enough electors refused to vote or voted for Trump to prevent Biden from gaining enough electoral votes to win? Do you take up arms against the Trumpbots or do you let Trump steal the election?

[RiverDog]

Hypothetically, what would you do if enough electors refused to vote or voted for Trump to prevent Biden from gaining enough electoral votes to win? Do you take up arms against the Trumpbots or do you let Trump steal the election?

It's silly to speculate on something like that, and I'm not going there with you. It's like asking me what I would do if a dinosaur killing meteor were about to strike the Earth, and it has about the same probability of happening.

[c_hawkbob]

Hypothetically, what would you do if enough electors refused to vote or voted for Trump to prevent Biden from gaining enough electoral votes to win? Do you take up arms against the Trumpbots or do you let Trump steal the election?

It's silly to speculate on something like that, and I'm not going there with you. It's like asking me what I would do if a dinosaur killing meteor were about to strike the Earth, and it has about the same probability of happening.

I sure hope you're right, but with each passing milestone he brushes off it's looking more and more like all these "you wait till inauguration day, it'll be Trump getting inaugurated" idiots I have to contend with at work and at the gym (yes, they're still open here) just might get their way.

Like I said, it's just a whole different atmosphere down here. Your POV would be laughed at here.

[RiverDog]

Like I said, it's just a whole different atmosphere down here. Your POV would be laughed at here.

Youi might be right about the atmosphere, and I am certainly in no position to argue with you. But there's a huge difference between talk and action.

[Aseahawkfan]

I sure hope you're right, but with each passing milestone he brushes off it's looking more and more like all these "you wait till inauguration day, it'll be Trump getting inaugurated" idiots I have to contend with at work and at the gym (yes, they're still open here) just might get their way.

Like I said, it's just a whole different atmosphere down here. Your POV would be laughed at here.

Your gyms are still open. You lucky bastard.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's silly to speculate on something like that, and I'm not going there with you. It's like asking me what I would do if a dinosaur killing meteor were about to strike the Earth, and it has about the same probability of happening.

We will see December 14th how deep the Trump crazy is. I for one am not looking forward to having to take up arms to deal with this, but I guess I'll have to if these Trumpbots subvert the electoral college and we have to settle this election stealing the hard way.