Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

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Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby yoder » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:55 pm

"The to-date cost of the glitchy Obamacare website has topped $1 billion, easily surpassing the $394 million originally estimated by the Government Accountability Office, according to a Bloomberg Government analysis." - The Blaze

Give me a billion and I'd build a bad arse website. It would work too. I'd hire a team of 100 Quality Assurance testers, give them $100,000 each to pound the thing for 6 months (night and day) and try to break the site. There's 1% of my budget.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Eaglehawk » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Failure. Unless I was part of that Canadian company that got the money to develop the website in which case I would say they were "glitches".
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:29 am

yoder wrote:"The to-date cost of the glitchy Obamacare website has topped $1 billion, easily surpassing the $394 million originally estimated by the Government Accountability Office, according to a Bloomberg Government analysis." - The Blaze

Give me a billion and I'd build a bad arse website. It would work too. I'd hire a team of 100 Quality Assurance testers, give them $100,000 each to pound the thing for 6 months (night and day) and try to break the site. There's 1% of my budget.


I'd say no. It's neither yet, but the early returns ain't good. I'll wait to see how it goes when the kinks are worked out (if it ever gets to that point) before giving it a thumbs up or a thumbs down..
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:50 am

It's undoubtedly WAAAAY too expensive and the project has been managed *completely* incompetently, but "failure" is a strong word indicating finality and I think it will eventually work just fine.

The law itself is another matter entirely, regardless of your politics.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby FolkCrusader » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:25 pm

I have no list of deliverables, no requirements, no systems list. No way one could say it is a good deal or a bad deal. What we do know was that it was pretty much non-functional at launch and in two months has signed up about one million people.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:24 pm

No way one could say it is a good deal or a bad deal.


Sure you can.

I've been a developer for ~15 years. I've worked on projects currently in use worldwide. While healthcare.gov is more complex than some partisan hacks want to admit (they have to pull from a number of disparate systems, and that ain't beanbag), there's nothing magical about what they needed to do.

If I assumed worst-case-scenarios for both complexity and traffic and estimated anything approaching a *tenth* of what they originally said this fiasco cost (~$400M?), I'd have been laughed out of the room and fired.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby FolkCrusader » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:59 pm

I've been in the business far longer than you Burrton. Your response makes it obvious you have never been involved in development of a large scale government system. As an example, $400 million bought a new medical system for a regional medical carrier recently and was considered an excellent deal. It wasn't even interstate.

I'm sure you are good at what you do, but this gave me a good laugh.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:42 am

Folk, I don't know what's involved in your "new medical system", but if you have a hospital system that was willing to spend half a billion on it and is still in business for doing so, it's *FAR* more complex than an enterprise-level e-commerce website*, which is not rocket science.

A good laugh indeed.

Your response makes it obvious you have never been involved in development of a large scale government system.


My employer will be distressed to hear. I've was one of two devs to put together a national database system currently used by places like Los Alamos and that had to be presented to and signed off on by the DNFSB.

The stuff it tracks makes $400M look like a down payment, but the system didn't cost anything approaching that, and that's kinda my point.

*And to be clear, even calling it that is being kind- it's more of a web portal.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:04 pm

It depends on whether or not you believe the botched implementation was intentional or not.

Clearly it was a horrible, epic failure, and will continue to be as the math just flat out doesn't work.
BUT it was intended to fail, so that people would cry out for the government to "fix it", and then the government could offer as a solution, single payer, or socialized health care, which is what the Democrat party has been wanting all along.

So it seems like a failure because it doesn't work, but they KNEW it wouldn't, partly because it COULDN'T, it's not possible to make it work mathematically, but mostly because they never intended for it to work in the first place. This was the plan all along...give people something they were told was "free" (no such thing sheeple!!!) then when those people complain because it doesn't work, tell them they will fix it with something even "more free"....all it will cost is more of your freedom.

We haven't even seen how epic the failure will be yet, as the real costs haven't kicked in yet.
You what the only thing wrong with socialism is?
Eventually you run out of other people's money!
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:11 pm

FolkCrusader wrote: What we do know was that it was pretty much non-functional at launch and in two months has signed up about one million people.


So by your own admission, it went past cost estimates, didn't work, and has signed up nowhere NEAR the amount of people we were told it would, (if indeed those numbers can even be trusted.)
I'd call that an epic failure by pretty much any standard wouldn't you??

A program that didn't work as intended, hasn't made NEARLY the impact it was supposed to and cost FAR, FAR, FAR more than it was supposed to, (which should shock no one as the current administration has flat out wasted more money, more or OUR tax dollars, than all previous administrations put together).

Oh yeah, and in the meantime, what is our national debt now? 17 trillion and rising quickly? Wow...pathetic!

This thing is nothing short of fiasco, failure to a degree previously unheard of in ANY administration ever.
Last edited by monkey on Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:27 pm

For the record, I'm not convinced about the "intentional" part, no matter how obvious and inevitable the failure appears, simply because I've never seen a politician try to intentionally look incompetent.

I'll leave that to others to debate, though.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:01 pm

burrrton wrote:For the record, I'm not convinced about the "intentional" part, no matter how obvious and inevitable the failure appears, simply because I've never seen a politician try to intentionally look incompetent.

I'll leave that to others to debate, though.


So then you think it's just colossal incompetence...either way it's not good. Either we have complete incompetents running the country or enemies with an agenda.
I just have a hard time believing that Obama is just a moron. He's not stupid, as anyone who knows him will tell you, he IS a left wing zealot though, raised mostly by communist grandparents (according to his autobiography!) in foreign nations that consider themselves ENEMIES of this nation.
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes, but when you eliminate what cannot be (he's certainly not incompetent or stupid), what's left is what it is.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:52 pm

So then you think it's just colossal incompetence...either way it's not good.


Yes, and agreed. Remember the old rule of thumb (paraphrased, probably): never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by incompetence.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:26 pm

burrrton wrote:
So then you think it's just colossal incompetence...either way it's not good.


Yes, and agreed. Remember the old rule of thumb (paraphrased, probably): never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by incompetence.


I understand where you are coming from, but I have to ask.
Do the people running the country, (who get advice from some of the smartest people in the country) REALLY strike you as incompetent?
Does Obama seem stupid or incompetent to you?

He doesn't seem that way at all to me, he seems driven by an agenda, he seems like someone acting out a plan.

If I could sufficiently explain what is going on, by calling it incompetence I gladly would, but that doesn't explain it sufficiently at all.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Eaglehawk » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:58 pm

monkey wrote:
burrrton wrote:
So then you think it's just colossal incompetence...either way it's not good.


Yes, and agreed. Remember the old rule of thumb (paraphrased, probably): never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by incompetence.


I understand where you are coming from, but I have to ask.
Do the people running the country, (who get advice from some of the smartest people in the country) REALLY strike you as incompetent?
Does Obama seem stupid or incompetent to you?

He doesn't seem that way at all to me, he seems driven by an agenda, he seems like someone acting out a plan.

If I could sufficiently explain what is going on, by calling it incompetence I gladly would, but that doesn't explain it sufficiently at all.


Whose plan?
Take either the red pill or the blue pill for the answer.
One pill will help you see how deep the rabbit hole goes. The other keeps you believing what you believe.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:27 am

Whose plan?
Those on the far left who donate big money to see their agenda's enacted. This isn't conspiracy stuff, or even far fetched at all... it just is what it is.
The far left wants to see this country socialized, and has been working for many years to make it happen. That's just common knowledge..

You ever read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinski?
That's pretty much the playbook they've been working off for years now.

Of course, there is a much deeper answer than that, but I don't feel this is the place for that kind of pulling-back-the-veil discussion.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Eaglehawk » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:04 am

monkey wrote:Whose plan?
Those on the far left who donate big money to see their agenda's enacted. This isn't conspiracy stuff, or even far fetched at all... it just is what it is.
The far left wants to see this country socialized, and has been working for many years to make it happen. That's just common knowledge..

You ever read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinski?
That's pretty much the playbook they've been working off for years now.

Of course, there is a much deeper answer than that, but I don't feel this is the place for that kind of pulling-back-the-veil discussion.


And what is the plan of the far right? Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing with you at all at this point based on what I have seen. I'm starting a thread on this so as to not confuse the issue.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:18 am

Eaglehawk wrote:
monkey wrote:Whose plan?
Those on the far left who donate big money to see their agenda's enacted. This isn't conspiracy stuff, or even far fetched at all... it just is what it is.
The far left wants to see this country socialized, and has been working for many years to make it happen. That's just common knowledge..

You ever read "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinski?
That's pretty much the playbook they've been working off for years now.

Of course, there is a much deeper answer than that, but I don't feel this is the place for that kind of pulling-back-the-veil discussion.


And what is the plan of the far right? Keep in mind, I am not disagreeing with you at all at this point based on what I have seen. I'm starting a thread on this so as to not confuse the issue.


The far right typically wants to hold on to the status quo (whether that's good or bad). The far right, is often afraid of change, any change, is usually completely pro-government (well as long as they are in power of course) they typically want a return to Bible based values.
Those are some general ideas, not true in all cases of course.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby savvyman » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:04 pm

The Politicians on both sides are ugly - esepecially the republicans who are twice as ugly.

Basically - the only thing that both republicans and democrats care about is getting re-elected.

Both parties are at constant war over the pie - also known as the GDP.

Today's version of the Republicans are only interested in representing the interests of the military-industrial complex, the large corporations and financial industries, and the Ultra-wealthy.

Today's version of the Democarats are only interested in representing the interests of the military-industrial complex, the large corporations and financial industries, and the Ultra-wealthy and a subsidy barely above the poverty line for everyone else


The result of this is both political parties have been "Kicking the can down the road" for a couple decades now. The results is a debt (that does not include unfunded social security and medicare) that has risen to crises levels of our GDP.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/#

Also The result of the USA financial crises has been the "need" to print massive amount of money and hand it all over to the "Financial Industrial Complex" so that they can replenish their balance sheets, refinance their debt and pump up asset prices like stocks. Take a look at just how much money has been "printed" since 2008.

( this is accomplished through the federal reserve printing money and handing it over to the banks at 1/4 % who in turn buy US Treasuries earnings between 2.0% - 3.5% - the banks pocket the spread and this is how they got free money in the billions of dollars - except it is not free because you and I the taxpayers will pay that 2.0% - 3.5% interest on the US debt for the next 10 years )

Just look how much money has been printed in order to bail out the rich in this country - but as always the masses will be the ones "paying the bill" over the next 20 years through higher inflation, less purchasing power and just a crappier economy and standard of living.

Image


At least the democrats are trying to see that some crumbs make it to the masses - republicans could give a Sh@t.

The primary socialism that has existed in the USA for the past 30 years has been 'Socialism for the Rich". This is where the ruling class has received 100% of all the profits and gains during this time - but when the debt and leverage bubble exploded i 2007 - 2008 , the ruling class successfully transferred all the losses to the government - i.e. the people you and me.

This is what is meant by Socialism for the ultra-rich - i.e. also known as the Ruling Class - - they keep 100% of the gains and successfully transfer all of the losses to the government. And believe this, they control both the democrats and republicans.

In the end both parties and the system are completely corrupt - money is what drives all decisions by our government leaders.

However, it is the citizens of the USA who are at fault for the current state of affairs and not the ruling class and their puppets known as the elected officials.- we have the vote to change whatever we decide to change or fix - we can elect our politicians with the mandate to make decisions and construct a economic system that is geared for creating middle class jobs, increasing more wealth generation and well being for the larger masses of the USA population - this was the type of government that existed in the USA from 1900 until it ended sometime around 1980. During this time for the most part our government worked very well for the majority of the citizens in the USA.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:00 am

At least the democrats are trying to see that some crumbs make it to the masses - republicans could give a Sh@t.


C'mon, savvy- those "crumbs" come at HUGE expense and don't do the recipients any good long term. If you really want to help "the masses", you need a strong economy, and you can't achieve that agitating for ever more money to be pulled out of other people's pockets.

I have no great love for either party, but lately I see a lot of people who want to be really, really generous as long as it's with someone else's money. To me, that isn't "giving a sh@t".

Maybe that's just me, though.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:36 pm

No Burrrton, it's definitely not just you, I'm right there with you on that.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby obiken » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:19 pm

Its easy to be a critic when you are talking trying to enroll everyone in the US ALL at once. IT is a mess but its getting better.

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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby savvyman » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:41 pm

burrrton wrote:
At least the democrats are trying to see that some crumbs make it to the masses - republicans could give a Sh@t.


C'mon, savvy- those "crumbs" come at HUGE expense and don't do the recipients any good long term. If you really want to help "the masses", you need a strong economy, and you can't achieve that agitating for ever more money to be pulled out of other people's pockets.

I have no great love for either party, but lately I see a lot of people who want to be really, really generous as long as it's with someone else's money. To me, that isn't "giving a sh@t".

Maybe that's just me, though.



First I would like to state that this post is about economics and not politics though many times there will be an overlap of these topics.

To Talk about these issues we have to first frame whether we are talking about the "Macro" (The World/economic conditions that people are living and operating in) or the ""Micro" - The choices that individuals make when operating in the Macro.

FYI - when talking about Micro behavior I believe that everyone needs to be accountable and that everyone is responsible to live with the results of the choices they make. Free handouts provides a disincentive for individuals to make responsible choices - any payment from a government agency should ideally be temporary and earned (with exception for those people elderly, too young or disabled who cannot take care of themselves without some type of assistance).

Now - On to the Macro - I was prepared to make a very long post with lots of graphs - fortunately I recalled an excellent piece of work by Henry Blodgett which visually shows what exactly has been going on in the USA economy over the past 80 years - and how the "ruling class" has successfully hijacked nearly the entire increase in wealth over the past 30 years.

Every American adult should read what I am about to link here - primarily because of what we are dealing here are "Facts" and not a bunch of uninformed opinions which is what you find expressed throughout the media - which is most people primary manner of trying to gather the information to get an understanding of the true economic condition of the USA and how we arrived at this point.

Thanks Henry - you saved me a lot of work here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-america-you-should-be-mad-as-hell-about-this-charts-2012-6?op=1


Here is one example to wet your appetite - but read the link above to get a real factual understanding of conditions today and how we got here.

Image
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:10 pm

*sigh*

Savvy, what do you propose we do about successful people being successful?
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby monkey » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:36 pm

Savvy, do you think that people there are rich people who are intentionally stopping you from earning as much money as you would like?
Me either.
I ask because, the economy is NOT a zero sum game. You can create for yourself as much wealth as you are able to create. In this country, if you have something that other people are willing to give you money for, then you can make all the money you want to make. You too can get as rich as those people you seem so angry about. No one is stopping you but you.

The point I am making is, instead of being jealous of what the ultra rich have, (which you must be, or else you wouldn't be showing us graphs that show us how much they have!) why not go get ultra rich yourself? No one is stopping you!
The ultra rich are NOT holding back money from you, or in any way holding you back from becoming as rich as you want to be. They did not get super rich at the expense of you or anyone else getting super rich either!
There is NOT a set amount of money available in this country, (just ask the federal reserve that inconceivably seems to actually think that printing bad money after bad in what they call quantitative easing won't come back to bite them), if you want more money, work harder or work smarter and you can have more.
There is not a limited supply of wealth available which the super rich are monopolizing, as you seem to believe.

The stuff you linked may be factually correct, but it is ultimately pointless, because it seems to be implying something that just isn't true at all. It seems to be trying to make the case that it's somehow unfair that some people have more than you which is just pure garbage.
Firstly, WHO SAID LIFE WAS FAIR?!? And a better question, who determines what fair is?
If someone is out there working harder than you are, putting in more hours, and coming up with better ideas, or products or whatever it is that he sells the single MOST unfair thing I can think of, would be take what he's making and give it to people who haven't put in the work and didn't come up with the ideas.
What makes you think a bunch of lazy dopes who contribute less, deserve what someone else is earning?

I'm so stinking tired of class warfare, it's nothing more than poorly disguised communism.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby savvyman » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:03 am

monkey wrote:Savvy, do you think that people there are rich people who are intentionally stopping you from earning as much money as you would like?
Me either.
I ask because, the economy is NOT a zero sum game. You can create for yourself as much wealth as you are able to create. In this country, if you have something that other people are willing to give you money for, then you can make all the money you want to make. You too can get as rich as those people you seem so angry about. No one is stopping you but you.

The point I am making is, instead of being jealous of what the ultra rich have, (which you must be, or else you wouldn't be showing us graphs that show us how much they have!) why not go get ultra rich yourself? No one is stopping you!
The ultra rich are NOT holding back money from you, or in any way holding you back from becoming as rich as you want to be. They did not get super rich at the expense of you or anyone else getting super rich either!
There is NOT a set amount of money available in this country, (just ask the federal reserve that inconceivably seems to actually think that printing bad money after bad in what they call quantitative easing won't come back to bite them), if you want more money, work harder or work smarter and you can have more.
There is not a limited supply of wealth available which the super rich are monopolizing, as you seem to believe.

The stuff you linked may be factually correct, but it is ultimately pointless, because it seems to be implying something that just isn't true at all. It seems to be trying to make the case that it's somehow unfair that some people have more than you which is just pure garbage.
Firstly, WHO SAID LIFE WAS FAIR?!? And a better question, who determines what fair is?
If someone is out there working harder than you are, putting in more hours, and coming up with better ideas, or products or whatever it is that he sells the single MOST unfair thing I can think of, would be take what he's making and give it to people who haven't put in the work and didn't come up with the ideas.
What makes you think a bunch of lazy dopes who contribute less, deserve what someone else is earning?

I'm so stinking tired of class warfare, it's nothing more than poorly disguised communism.



LOL - Ok Monkey.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Hawktown » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:50 am

monkey wrote:Savvy, do you think that people there are rich people who are intentionally stopping you from earning as much money as you would like?
Me either.
I ask because, the economy is NOT a zero sum game. You can create for yourself as much wealth as you are able to create. In this country, if you have something that other people are willing to give you money for, then you can make all the money you want to make. You too can get as rich as those people you seem so angry about. No one is stopping you but you.

The point I am making is, instead of being jealous of what the ultra rich have, (which you must be, or else you wouldn't be showing us graphs that show us how much they have!) why not go get ultra rich yourself? No one is stopping you!
The ultra rich are NOT holding back money from you, or in any way holding you back from becoming as rich as you want to be. They did not get super rich at the expense of you or anyone else getting super rich either!
There is NOT a set amount of money available in this country, (just ask the federal reserve that inconceivably seems to actually think that printing bad money after bad in what they call quantitative easing won't come back to bite them), if you want more money, work harder or work smarter and you can have more.
There is not a limited supply of wealth available which the super rich are monopolizing, as you seem to believe.

The stuff you linked may be factually correct, but it is ultimately pointless, because it seems to be implying something that just isn't true at all. It seems to be trying to make the case that it's somehow unfair that some people have more than you which is just pure garbage.
Firstly, WHO SAID LIFE WAS FAIR?!? And a better question, who determines what fair is?
If someone is out there working harder than you are, putting in more hours, and coming up with better ideas, or products or whatever it is that he sells the single MOST unfair thing I can think of, would be take what he's making and give it to people who haven't put in the work and didn't come up with the ideas.
What makes you think a bunch of lazy dopes who contribute less, deserve what someone else is earning?

I'm so stinking tired of class warfare, it's nothing more than poorly disguised communism.



Actually, if the rich, like gates and Allen so to say, did not charge so much to begin with, the rest of the people would have more money to go around because the cost of everything would be less. if the cost was less than they would sell more. in the end they would still get rich and the people could have better access to more purchasing power. Do you see the spiraling affect here. greed at the top keeps the bottom down. There is not jobs in this world for MOST EVERYONE that can make them rich, no matter how hard they work. Hell, i work SO MUCH harder than most "rich" people i have ever met but the industry i am in would never allow to become rich and i am fine with that, i don't need to be rich. i just need to take care of my family. The Rich are just money hoarder's IMO keeping the money away from the less fortunate. At the same time the rich usually don't spend their money where it would help out the less fortunate. The rich do in fact have a huge affect on the overall economy. Just so you know, i do believe some people deserve more than others and i completely disagree with giving people who could get a job as a greeter at walmart, or something of the like ,FREE MONEY in early SSI or welfare. too many people think they are entitled and don't have to work, this is CRAP!!! LOL.

I also do not believe in obama care or the medical system as a whole and will not be buying into their insurance or taking their pills. I will also happily go to jail for tax fraud when i refuse to pay the fine for not signing up for obama care. If they can catch me???
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:02 pm

The Rich are just money hoarder's IMO keeping the money away from the less fortunate.


*sigh* No. Just no. To use a tired analogy, wealth is not a finite pie, where when someone else gets a bigger piece, someone else's must necessarily be smaller.

It's nonsense.

I know a number of people who have made a *lot* of money since they and I were living off baked potatoes and ramen in college. What makes you think either your or I are poorer for them having become so successful?

That line of thinking will only hurt you, my friend.

I will also happily go to jail for tax fraud when i refuse to pay the fine for not signing up for obama care.


Bad idea. Again, it will only hurt you.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Hawktown » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:45 pm

burrrton wrote:
The Rich are just money hoarder's IMO keeping the money away from the less fortunate.


*sigh* No. Just no. To use a tired analogy, wealth is not a finite pie, where when someone else gets a bigger piece, someone else's must necessarily be smaller.

It's nonsense.


I would have to disagree there. like i said before, IMO, if everything did not cost so much then people would be able to afford more. At the same time, this would create more work for people because they would be producing more and in the end the owner would still get rich while spreading the wealth around more and giving people more work. sounds like a win, win to me but greed holds that back some good bit. again, just my opinion and i don't fault yours.

I know a number of people who have made a *lot* of money since they and I were living off baked potatoes and ramen in college. What makes you think either your or I are poorer for them having become so successful?

That line of thinking will only hurt you, my friend.


SEE ABOVE

I will also happily go to jail for tax fraud when i refuse to pay the fine for not signing up for obama care.


Bad idea. Again, it will only hurt you.


Well, i guess i would rather fight back then allow them to shove something i DO NOT believe in down my throat in way of a tax or forced DEATHcare (more like keep you sick so they can keep profiting off you). Something i think that people in this country have been dumbed down to NOT do, fight back. Just wait until the US tries to ban herbal remedies like the Europe has. http://www.naturalnews.com/032389_herba ... rope.html# All they would like to do is own you and the people are letting them!!!

It really does not hurt.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:38 am

again, just my opinion and i don't fault yours.


So tell me- do you dread your neighbor getting a big promotion at work, or his small business becoming successful?

Opinion or not, wealth is not a set sum that has to be divvied up.

It really does not hurt.


You and I have different feelings about jail time, I guess.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Hawktown » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:19 pm

burrrton wrote:
again, just my opinion and i don't fault yours.


So tell me- do you dread your neighbor getting a big promotion at work, or his small business becoming successful?

Opinion or not, wealth is not a set sum that has to be divvied up.

It really does not hurt.


You and I have different feelings about jail time, I guess.



Naw man, i don't have a problem with people making money or more than others and i think i stated that in my original post. I just think that some of the big corps., not necessarily the small business people as i am a small business owner BTW, could use to lower their pricing quite a bit and they could still get rich while supplying people with more work and still making a ton of money at the same time. in turn, the rest of the people would be able to afford more with what they have. WIN, WIN. This is of coarse something i believe should be sorted out by the greater good rather than forced on by the government. good luck with that though. In my business, i can easily price myself out of work or i can go a little lower in price and pick up a ton more work. meaning i need help, thus improving the economy as i can. in the end, i make more money. Again WIN, WIN. not tryin to argue or nothin, this is all just my 2 cents.

If more people would stand up against the man then more would be accomplished in the name of the people.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:52 pm

I just think that some of the big corps., not necessarily the small business people as i am a small business owner BTW, could use to lower their pricing quite a bit and they could still get rich while supplying people with more work and still making a ton of money at the same time.


Do you think you know more about any given biz's market than they do? If any given (competent) company could just lower their prices while clearing more profit, why do you think they wouldn't do so?

in turn, the rest of the people would be able to afford more with what they have. WIN, WIN.


It's not that simple. Freshman macro would teach you this.

This is of coarse something i believe should be sorted out by the greater good rather than forced on by the government.


Ok- we're probably closer in opinion than I thought.

If you want to make whatever request floats your boat of some given business, you're free to do so, and if you can affect them to respond, more power to you (and I may be fighting right next to you in many instances).

In my business, i can easily price myself out of work or i can go a little lower in price and pick up a ton more work.


That's the same evaluation every business does, bro. That's how the market sets prices. It's a beautiful thing.
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby Hawktown » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:37 pm

burrrton wrote:
I just think that some of the big corps., not necessarily the small business people as i am a small business owner BTW, could use to lower their pricing quite a bit and they could still get rich while supplying people with more work and still making a ton of money at the same time.


Do you think you know more about any given biz's market than they do? If any given (competent) company could just lower their prices while clearing more profit, why do you think they wouldn't do so?

in turn, the rest of the people would be able to afford more with what they have. WIN, WIN.


It's not that simple. Freshman macro would teach you this.

This is of coarse something i believe should be sorted out by the greater good rather than forced on by the government.


Ok- we're probably closer in opinion than I thought.

If you want to make whatever request floats your boat of some given business, you're free to do so, and if you can affect them to respond, more power to you (and I may be fighting right next to you in many instances).

In my business, i can easily price myself out of work or i can go a little lower in price and pick up a ton more work.


That's the same evaluation every business does, bro. That's how the market sets prices. It's a beautiful thing.



i understand your point about market sets price though i am referring to BIG business in general. if it cost less to buy a computer, car, cell phone, food, medicine, housing, power water, insurance ect. again people would have more to spend on other things and i do realize it is not exactly just that simple. I also believe that with the HUGELY OBVIOUS amount of money these top dogs in those BIG businesses could use to cut back on their own income and allow the economy to turn a little bit more. If they can pull in so much each year, then they could use to lower their price and i think that the monopoly on most of the BIG businesses, including the NFL, do not have to answer to the market and set their own pricing at will because they realize their product is essential to either human entertainment or to running a business (like a computer). It to me is really the monopoly companies that hurt most of it all. and then there is the government who couldn't run my small business let alone a country. In reality the people need to quit using these products and then the BIG business will respond but until people as a whole stand up, it won't happen. I do believe that BIG business and the government are in it to keep us all down.

Great chat burrrton!
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Re: Is the ObamaCare website a success or failure?

Postby burrrton » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:48 am

i do realize it is not exactly just that simple.


This is quite an understatement, ht.

If they just lower the price on that computer/car/cellphone, they're not maximizing their profit. You know what happens then? Again, it's not a nice, neat, straight line, but people get laid off and/or stockholders get p*ssed and/or executives get fired.

Same thing with just arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. You can't just jack a company's labor costs 20% and expect nothing to happen but the owner just accepting less profit.

I also believe that with the HUGELY OBVIOUS amount of money these top dogs in those BIG businesses could use to cut back on their own income and allow the economy to turn a little bit more.


Well, any 'cut back' in that outrageous salary of a CEO will have *no* discernible impact on the economy in general, but will make it more likely that a good CEO will be hired away by another company willing to pay more. That's now a free(ish) market works.

And if you think good management is nothing but glad-handing and tee times, you're mistaken. They have very hard jobs (not hard in the sense of back-breaking, but hard in the sense of complex, difficult, and unable to be done effectively by just any Joe Blow off the street) and the effects of poor management can be devastating.

I do believe that BIG business and the government are in it to keep us all down.


Debatable, but at least acknowledge the difference:

BIG business has to respond to market pressures (unless they're in bed with BIG government, which would be an argument against BIG government, not against BIG business).

Government doesn't give two sh*ts what you think (generally speaking). The saying "You can't fight City Hall" is as accurate today as it has ever been.
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