The RIP thread

[RiverDog]

Bob Kuechenberg, vital cog in the best O-Line in NFL history has died at 71 years old.

RIP Kooch.

Well, there's a group of individuals from the Redskins that might argue against that opinion, but Kuechenberg and the Dolphins definetly deserve to be mentioned in any discussion involving best ever NFL O-lines.

The Dolphins of Kuchenberg's era were my favorite pre-1976 team, and along with guys like Larry Little and Norm Evans, blocked for the NFL's first and only rushing tandems to both break 1K rushing yards in a season.

RIP.

[politicalfootball]

Yeah dolphins football I remember Dan Marino of the maimi dolphins. Seems like his name was all you heard watching a dolphins game but they sure were good back then.

Anyway. Hats off to Kooch

RIP.

[RiverDog]

Yeah dolphins football I remember Dan Marino of the maimi dolphins. Seems like his name was all you heard watching a dolphins game but they sure were good back then.

Anyway. Hats off to Kooch

RIP.

PF the Dolphins that Cbob and I were discussing are the early 70's No Name Defense bunch, including the only team to go through the entire season undefeated. Bob Griese was the quarterback, and it was a good 10 years before Marino started playing for them. I'm not sure when Kuchenberg retired, but I don't think he played with Marino, or if he did, it was just for a year or two.

I could probably name at least half of the starters on offense and defense from those teams. Just shows you how old WE are, Cbob.

[c_hawkbob]

Wow, this one hurts. Love you're work man, RIP Neil Peart.

[Aseahawkfan]

RIP Kobe Bryant and his daughter Gianna. Way too young to die.

[RiverDog]

RIP Kobe Bryant and his daughter Gianna. Way too young to die.

Let's not forget that there were 7 others that died in that crash. I often times wonder how it might feel to lose someone in an accident like that and in addition to grieving for my loved one, have to witness the entire world making a fuss over the big name that lost their life in the same accident as if they were the only one that died.

Tragic loss that reminds me of the passing of Roberto Clemente. Lots of similarities.

[c_hawkbob]

I don't think we necessarily need to "remember" everyone that ever dies, or even than dies at the same time as someone for whom we had some affection or awareness of when we pay our respects to those that do.

That said, sympathies for the families of all involved.

[Hawktawk]

Wow that is just wrong Love your life, your family and friends. You never know. The irony is staggering. He lived a full life in 41 years but his kid didn't get to. If he was Joe blow the Hvac repair guy he'd have been stuck in traffic in his minivan. If his fellow passengers hadn't brushed shoulders with celebrity royalty they wouldnt be dead either.Neither would Stevie ray Vaughan or Troy Gentry among others I Fing hate flying, safest way to travel but most deadly way to crash. Never been in a helicopter, refused to get in one in the middle of a heart attack but they seem far more dangerous than a fixed wing aircraft where at least you can glide for awhile if your engine quits.I dont want to think about the final seconds of those beautiful people's lives, parents and kids, pillars of the community. Its senseless

[RiverDog]

Wow that is just wrong Love your life, your family and friends. You never know. The irony is staggering. He lived a full life in 41 years but his kid didn't get to. If he was Joe blow the Hvac repair guy he'd have been stuck in traffic in his minivan. If his fellow passengers hadn't brushed shoulders with celebrity royalty they wouldnt be dead either.Neither would Stevie ray Vaughan or Troy Gentry among others I Fing hate flying, safest way to travel but most deadly way to crash. Never been in a helicopter, refused to get in one in the middle of a heart attack but they seem far more dangerous than a fixed wing aircraft where at least you can glide for awhile if your engine quits.I dont want to think about the final seconds of those beautiful people's lives, parents and kids, pillars of the community. Its senseless

I've been in a helicopter just once: On a one hour tour around the island of Kauai. I don't know exactly what their safety record is vs. fixed wing aircraft, but common sense would seem to indicate that you're right. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be afraid to ride in another one.

There's a few being asked regarding this accident: Why was it flying when other helicopters, like the LAPD's choppers, were grounded because of dense fog? There's normally a pilot and co pilot on board, but this bird had just a pilot. This particular helicopter has a very good safety record and is equipped with GPS navigation that would allow it to fly in near zero visibility but it's not clear if it was engaged. One of the theories is that the low visibility caused the pilot to get disorientated. It has a voice recorder and may have a "black box" that would aid in the investigation.

[Hawktawk]

They just lost another tour guide helicopter in Hawaii last week or so. No thanks!!

I've heard he was flying VFR meaning he had to stay very close to the ground in very foggy conditions to see. He could have requested instruments but might have had to spend an hour or more in line before entering the airspace near his landing zone if he did so as it changes the rules of flight patterns etc. He apparently had circled for 15 minutes before trying to climb over the hills. A minute before the crash he climbed sharply and made a tight U turn at 2400' , investigators suspect he was trying to gain some altitude above the terrain. A minute later he crashed at 1400 ' doing 187 mph and descending at 4000 feet per minute, basically flying in a dive mode. Looking at the site there appears to be a ridge the copter clipped, probably just doing VFR and at 187 mph going straight downhill it snuck up on him. The State Patrol wasn't letting their birds fly, several planes at nearby airports had done go arounds due to poor visibility. They should never have been in the air.

RIP Kobe and all the other victims.

I loved that guys work, thought he was becoming a great man but sadly he is dead because of who he was and because he had a pilot who was concerned about keeping his best client happy.

There's old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots I've studied air disasters intently and it's the most common theme , controlled flight into terrain. Pilot error. We will see but its my guess. It's no less tragic regardless

[RiverDog]

They just lost another tour guide helicopter in Hawaii last week or so. No thanks!!

I've heard he was flying VFR meaning he had to stay very close to the ground in very foggy conditions to see. He could have requested instruments but might have had to spend an hour or more in line before entering the airspace near his landing zone if he did so as it changes the rules of flight patterns etc. He apparently had circled for 15 minutes before trying to climb over the hills. A minute before the crash he climbed sharply and made a tight U turn at 2400' , investigators suspect he was trying to gain some altitude above the terrain. A minute later he crashed at 1400 ' doing 187 mph and descending at 4000 feet per minute, basically flying in a dive mode. Looking at the site there appears to be a ridge the copter clipped, probably just doing VFR and at 187 mph going straight downhill it snuck up on him. The State Patrol wasn't letting their birds fly, several planes at nearby airports had done go arounds due to poor visibility. They should never have been in the air.

RIP Kobe and all the other victims.

I loved that guys work, thought he was becoming a great man but sadly he is dead because of who he was and because he had a pilot who was concerned about keeping his best client happy.

There's old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots I've studied air disasters intently and it's the most common theme , controlled flight into terrain. Pilot error. We will see but its my guess. It's no less tragic regardless

How many tourists got burned to death on that chartered yacht a couple of months ago? 30 some? Does that mean you're never going to go on a cruise on a 75' yacht? There are TONS of helicopters flying out of Hawaii. I'm not sure if the odds of dying in a helicopter crash are any better or worse than driving a car.

It sure sounds like the accident was preventable, but we'll have to wait until the NTSB completes their investigation. Although the decision to fly under those conditions was obviously very questionable, there's still the possibility that mechanical failure could have been the cause.

[Hawktawk]

The boat was creepy. Horrible . No I will never get on a helicopter . As I say on 1/5/17 I refused to get in one and chose an hr ride in an ambulance rather than get in one . I’m not saying it’s rational , I’m saying it’s real.

[RiverDog]

The boat was creepy. Horrible . No I will never get on a helicopter . As I say on 1/5/17 I refused to get in one and chose an hr ride in an ambulance rather than get in one . I’m not saying it’s rational , I’m saying it’s real.

I understand. If you're that unnerved, then by all means, don't get in them.

But it would be interesting to know what the numbers say, if flying in a helicopter is inherently more dangerous than other modes of transportation and if so, by how much. The military flies a whole helluva lot of them and you don't hear of an abnormally high number of incidents that exceeds other modes of transportation.

[Hawktawk]

I know tourist charter planes and copters are the worst for safety . Then regional carriers and then major carriers . It would be interesting to google stats for fixed wing vs rotor safety etc. I’m just a white knuckle flier period.

A few more details on the Crash, the Pilot was actually granted SVFR”special” visual rflight rules. He apparently entered a bank of fog described as “thick as a swimming pool of milk” cars were having trouble on the freeway . His last transmission to the tower he said he was climbing to get above the fog but at that time radar showed a rapid climb , a u turn and a steep descent until he crashed . The tower asked what his intentions were but there was no response .

It looks to me like spacial disorientation, losing track of up and down in zero visibility. The guy was not only instrument rated but an instructor and yet never requested permission to use them . He took his reasoning for continuing to fly in those conditions his death . His colleagues are shocked. Another pilot who flew Kobe said he had refused to fly plenty of times . He said his clients understood. “ nobody wants to die” he said in his mind there is almost no chance it was mechanical failure .
Senseless preventable tragedy .

[RiverDog]

I know tourist charter planes and copters are the worst for safety . Then regional carriers and then major carriers . It would be interesting to google stats for fixed wing vs rotor safety etc. I’m just a white knuckle flier period.

I don't doubt your conclusion, but I'm not talking about just aircraft. I'm talking about all modes of transportation, including cars, trains, and boats.

I've tried to google it but there's a problem when trying to figure out which one is safest. Cars and trains are tracked by miles traveled while aircraft is measured by hours flown. The other problem is that unlike cars and planes, there seems to be a much higher disparity between experienced chopper pilots flying top of the line aircraft and the inexperienced, low end operator. Kobe and co. were flying in a very safe machine with an experienced pilot. Additionally, there seems to be a higher rate when helicopters are flying emergency missions, of which this one was anything but an emergency, although that fact alone begs the question WTF were they doing flying in those conditions.

This article is pretty outdated, but it shows the difficulty in making a comparison:

Still, it’s possible to do a little speculation with the data that are available. Between 2005 and 2009, there was an annual average of 1.44 fatalities (PDF) per 100,000 flying hours in nonmilitary helicopters. Over the same period, there were 13.2 traffic fatalities per 100,000 population in the United States annually. Since the average American spends around 780 hours per year (PDF) in the car, that means the fatality rate per 100,000 hours of driving time is just 0.017. Based on hours alone, helicopters are 85 times more dangerous than driving.

Helicopters cover a lot more ground in an hour than a driver on the New Jersey Turnpike, so it might be better to come at the question from another angle. There are approximately 0.8 deaths on the interstate highway system for every 100 million miles traveled. There have been a fair number of studies on the average speed on the interstate system with varying results, but the average is probably somewhere around 68 miles per hour, give or take a few mph. That means it took drivers approximately 1.47 million hours to travel those 100 million miles, yielding a fatality rate of 0.054 per 100,000 hours in the car. By this measure, helicopter flying is just 27 times more dangerous than driving.

To be fair to Gov. Christie, there are a lot of variables that can’t be easily integrated into these back-of-the-envelope calculations. The governor has a professional pilot, which makes him far safer. Personal helicopters, often operated by inexperienced pilots, crash 18 times as often (PDF) as commercial helicopter taxis. (Of course, the governor also travels the roads with a professional driver.) The governor also has the benefit of a high quality, well maintained aircraft. Low-end helicopters crash at least five times as often as the top-of-the-line models.

Crash statistics are also influenced by conditions. Many fatal commercial helicopter crashes occur during urgent flights and in risky weather, which wouldn’t apply to Gov. Christie’s trip to his son’s baseball game. Fatalities in emergency medical transport crashes, for example, are higher than for other helicopters. According to some analyses of the 10-year period ending in 2007, working as crew on an emergency medical helicopter was the most dangerous job in America (PDF).

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... -cars.html

[Hawktawk]

Pretty fascinating stuff there RD. Thanks for chasing it down! Honestly Id have thought helicopters were "statistically" safer than cars so that is surprising, although as has been pointed out the Professionally operated craft are far safer. That's my thing about charters. They are a for profit business trying to keep costs low. their pilots and Mechanics aren't 5the best trained or highest paid.

I would guess fixed wing aircraft are much safer. I always hear airlines are the safest way to travel but of course there's everything in the spectrum from homebuilt planes to the 737 Max.......As I say, it may be statistically the safest way to travel but I'm certain it's the least safe way to crash. I've survived a head on collision with a 110 MPH closing speed, also was run over by my own boat in 1991 and I'm still here. If I was on kobe's helicopter of one of those Max 8s not so much...

Sounds pretty clear the feds think the pilot climbed suddenly to possible avoid terrain, took a u turn and suddenly dove downwards over 1000 feet in 15 seconds before impacting a ridge 20-30' from clearing it. The man got confused with up and down. The aircraft was not equipped with a black box. Even more important it did not have ground avoidance radar. In 2006 a directive was issued to equip all air taxis with it at a cost of 25-50k per plane but the politicians and lobbyist killed it.
Sounds pretty cheap now.

[RiverDog]

Pretty fascinating stuff there RD. Thanks for chasing it down! Honestly Id have thought helicopters were "statistically" safer than cars so that is surprising, although as has been pointed out the Professionally operated craft are far safer. That's my thing about charters. They are a for profit business trying to keep costs low. their pilots and Mechanics aren't 5the best trained or highest paid.

No problem, I thought it interesting, too. My point was that we really can't make a fair determination as to how safe helicopters are relative to other mode of transportation. The stats didn't include military aircraft, and the military has been flying them longer and I would guess that they put more hours in them than any other sector of society, yet we don't hear about very many of their choppers going down even though they're flying the same machines made by the same companies. Do they have better pilots? Are their safety procedures better?

I would guess fixed wing aircraft are much safer. I always hear airlines are the safest way to travel but of course there's everything in the spectrum from homebuilt planes to the 737 Max.......As I say, it may be statistically the safest way to travel but I'm certain it's the least safe way to crash. I've survived a head on collision with a 110 MPH closing speed, also was run over by my own boat in 1991 and I'm still here. If I was on kobe's helicopter of one of those Max 8s not so much...

I try not to get hung up on safety when the odds get out to the 1 in 10,000 range. I figure that if my number comes up, it comes up. There were 80,000 Americans killed by the flu last winter yet we're shocked when 15-20 people per year get killed in helicopter crashes. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be taking reasonable precautions, like getting your flu shot, washing your hands frequently, not flying in choppers when it's foggy, and not going out on the golf course during a thunderstorm and holding your 3-iron over your head. But I'm not going to quit enjoying my life due to a preoccupation with possible fatal activities. One of the biggest thrills of my life has been white water rafting, and if I thought about it in terms of my odds of dying from it, I would have never come close to the river.

Sounds pretty clear the feds think the pilot climbed suddenly to possible avoid terrain, took a u turn and suddenly dove downwards over 1000 feet in 15 seconds before impacting a ridge 20-30' from clearing it. The man got confused with up and down. The aircraft was not equipped with a black box. Even more important it did not have ground avoidance radar. In 2006 a directive was issued to equip all air taxis with it at a cost of 25-50k per plane but the politicians and lobbyist killed it.
Sounds pretty cheap now.

I wouldn't say that it's "pretty clear" as their is an ear witness that reported that the helicopter didn't sound right and they can't rule out some sort of mechanical failure, but I agree with you that pilot error seems to be the most likely cause. And I, too, heard about the NTSB's vigorous and repeated objections to the FAA's failure to incorporate certain safety features in their regs for helicopters. Add that to the blood they already have on their hands over their role in the 737 MAX debacle.

[Hawktawk]

I’ve white water rafted a few times on the snake and it’s tributaries . Not the huge water but I love that . I’ve flown once in the last 20 years, Vegas in 2012 as I had never been. I stressed for hours before getting on, drank heavily during the flight to stay calm . Wheels down was the best feeling ever . 4 days later I’m stressing for hours at the airport, nervous the whole flight into Seattle . Like I say , it’s not rational but it’s real and it sucks . Working up the courage to go to Hawaii for our 30th in a year. My friends flip me crap about it . A really good friend said “ john you may as well not worry cause if you do crash even the $h1t in your pants will be an ash .

[RiverDog]

I’ve white water rafted a few times on the snake and it’s tributaries . Not the huge water but I love that . I’ve flown once in the last 20 years, Vegas in 2012 as I had never been. I stressed for hours before getting on, drank heavily during the flight to stay calm . Wheels down was the best feeling ever . 4 days later I’m stressing for hours at the airport, nervous the whole flight into Seattle . Like I say , it’s not rational but it’s real and it sucks . Working up the courage to go to Hawaii for our 30th in a year. My friends flip me crap about it . A really good friend said “ john you may as well not worry cause if you do crash even the $h1t in your pants will be an ash .

Which island are you going to? We've been to all 4 of the major islands. You might want to ask your doctor about something to calm your nerves when you fly. I won't tease you about it. My mother had such a phobia to snakes that she couldn't even look at a still picture of them, so yeah, it's real alright.

I've rafted Hells Canyon from the base of Hells Canyon dam down to Pittsburgh Landing. It's so remote that it's nearly 200 miles one way to shuttle the cars from the dam to where we take out. On some trips, we'd raft the big rapids to a spot called Johnson Bar then chartered a jet boat to take us back up the big water. There was only one commercial guy that would do the big rapids, Granite Creek and Wild Sheep. We've also done the lower Salmon from Hammermill Creek to Heller Bar on the Snake several times. Great way to spend a 100+ degree July week.

[Hawktawk]

Hell yes that sounds fun . I rode a 31’ twin engine jet on a tour up hells canyon . 750 hp of 351 ford engines, full power reverse and a bad ass captain . That was fun. We did a couple of 2 night Salmon trips. We rolled the raft I was on once which got a little exciting but really RD I’m not afraid of much but trump as president , flying , and a 9ers dynasty.

[RiverDog]

Hell yes that sounds fun . I rode a 31’ twin engine jet on a tour up hells canyon . 750 hp of 351 ford engines, full power reverse and a bad ass captain . That was fun. We did a couple of 2 night Salmon trips. We rolled the raft I was on once which got a little exciting but really RD I’m not afraid of much but trump as president , flying , and a 9ers dynasty.

Yeah, flipping in the Snake or Salmon, especially in July or August when the water is like bathtub temperature, is a huge rush. We would run 6 man rafts...my buddy claims that they must rate raft capacity by piling guys into it until it sinks then they subtract 1....they're only 12' long inflatables that we would put 2 or 3 guys in, and give you a lot more roller coaster action as they don't bridge the waves like the bigger boats do. We don't go into rapids trying to flip, but if we do, they're easy to get turned back upright. The other thing about the Snake and the Salmon is that they're big rivers without the drift logs and stuff you can get hung up on and deep enough to where you don't get banged around in rocks, and they're pool and drop vs. a continuous string of rapids, 95% lazy floats that allow for plenty of beer drinking interrupted by the occasional Class 3-4 rapid.

You didn't answer me as to which Hawaiian island you're planning on visiting. I may have some recommendations for you.

[Aseahawkfan]

The biggest problem I have with flying even though I know they have less accidents than car and most other forms of transportation is generally air accidents lead to 100% or nearly so death. Sure, there are less accidents. If you even one, chances are you are going to die. When I ride in a jet or plane, I accept that any failure and I'm likely to die. I get Hawktawk not wanting to ride in a copter. I probably wouldn't either. I don't like heights. I'd hate to be looking down like that for a long time.

[RiverDog]

The biggest problem I have with flying even though I know they have less accidents than car and most other forms of transportation is generally air accidents lead to 100% or nearly so death. Sure, there are less accidents. If you even one, chances are you are going to die. When I ride in a jet or plane, I accept that any failure and I'm likely to die. I get Hawktawk not wanting to ride in a copter. I probably wouldn't either. I don't like heights. I'd hate to be looking down like that for a long time.

If you have even the slightest fear of heights, I wouldn't get into a helicopter unless it was an emergency. I'm not afraid of heights at all yet nearly got air sick in the first few minutes of my first and only helicopter ride.

But whitewater rafting is a different story, should be on everybody's bucket list. About 90% love it and 10% hate it, but you'll never know which category you fall into until you try it.

[idhawkman]

I've jumped out of many helicopters and planes. I'm deathly afraid of heights, too. I just learned how to control the fear.

That all said, I have often said that Helicopters really don't fly, they just beat the air into submission. Its kind of a joke since flying in a copter is usually more safe than in an aircraft. Here's why.

1. A helicopter can do what is called Auto-rotation which basically uses the props to slow its decent even if the engine is stalled. Think about whether your car will roll down hill if you put it in gear without the engine running. you can shift to other gears to go as fast or slow as you want, right. Well if you ever watch a movie where a helicopter is going down and the helicopter is swirling that is auto-rotation and a slower decent.

2. A plane must have power to slowly fall out of the sky when it lands. you can use your flaps to help gain lift but that lift is only for a short time until the engine stalls. When you fly on a commercial air craft you can usually tell when the flaps have been used too soon by the pilot applying more throttle just before you land. when you don't have any engine power, you're just doomed at the angle of the aircraft as it meets the ground. In smaller air craft with the engine in the front, the nose is heaviest and will lead you into the ground never giving the wheels a chance to touch down. Additionally, if you have ground wind, you don't have any power to crab into the wind or counter act the wind. The safest place to be on any aircraft that crashes is the tail for two reasons. The first is that the nose has to be heavier weighted in aircraft to account for the amount of thrust the plane needs to propel it forward. If the nose was balanced with the back aerodynamics would not be achieved. Therefore the nose is always the first place that contacts the earth in a plane crash. Second, is that the tail section usually breaks off in a crash and remains intact. So if you are ever in an aircraft that is going down, move to the back as far as you can. Let the pilots and first class people meet their maker first and hopefully, you'll live to see another day.

The problem with Kobe's helo was not that it had a mechanical failure but an instrument failure (more specifically, it was not equiped with altitude instruments) and it flew full force into the ground. Given the fog that day, the pilot and all passengers maybe had 3 seconds at best knowing their fate when they met the ground.

[RiverDog]

I've jumped out of many helicopters and planes. I'm deathly afraid of heights, too. I just learned how to control the fear.

That all said, I have often said that Helicopters really don't fly, they just beat the air into submission. Its kind of a joke since flying in a copter is usually more safe than in an aircraft. Here's why.

1. A helicopter can do what is called Auto-rotation which basically uses the props to slow its decent even if the engine is stalled. Think about whether your car will roll down hill if you put it in gear without the engine running. you can shift to other gears to go as fast or slow as you want, right. Well if you ever watch a movie where a helicopter is going down and the helicopter is swirling that is auto-rotation and a slower decent.

If you're flying over a wheat field in North Dakota, then that's fine. But almost all of tourist helicopters, perhaps the most popular commercial use, fly over terrain that would be unsuitable for an emergency landing as that's the reason why they're using that mode in the first place, ie to get an otherwise inaccessible view of some stark, foreboding landscape like the Grand Canyon or Hawaiian Islands. To a lesser degree, it's the same reason, or at least one of the major reasons, why they use helicopters for emergency evacuations, ie the area is unsuitable for ground transportation.

Helicopters don't have the redundancy that most fixed wing passenger planes have. Multi engine aircraft can afford to lose an engine and still fly. A chopper loses its engine and hold onto your arse and hope what's below is suitable for a safe landing.

It's difficult to compare the two types of aircraft as to their expected mortality rates. Do you use a ratio showing the number of passengers that safely flew vs those who died? Hours flown? Miles traveled? Or number of fatal incidents per flight? My gut feeling is that traveling in a commercial fixed wing aircraft is a lot safer than flying in a whirly bird.

[idhawkman]

If you're flying over a wheat field in North Dakota, then that's fine. But almost all of tourist helicopters, perhaps the most popular commercial use, fly over terrain that would be unsuitable for an emergency landing as that's the reason why they're using that mode in the first place, ie to get an otherwise inaccessible view of some stark, foreboding landscape like the Grand Canyon or Hawaiian Islands. To a lesser degree, it's the same reason, or at least one of the major reasons, why they use helicopters for emergency evacuations, ie the area is unsuitable for ground transportation.

Helicopters don't have the redundancy that most fixed wing passenger planes have. Multi engine aircraft can afford to lose an engine and still fly. A chopper loses its engine and hold onto your arse and hope what's below is suitable for a safe landing.

It's difficult to compare the two types of aircraft as to their expected mortality rates. Do you use a ratio showing the number of passengers that safely flew vs those who died? Hours flown? Miles traveled? Or number of fatal incidents per flight? My gut feeling is that traveling in a commercial fixed wing aircraft is a lot safer than flying in a whirly bird.

Since this is a R I P thread this will be my last post on this topic.

Small planes like small Helios have one engine but big helots like big planes have multiple engines.

Terrain can be a factor in deciding the aircraft used but most tourist Helos are for speed and altitude control. Can't see much out of a plane going 150 knots/hr and can't go down into the canyon very well in a plane especially if you want to see the leading edge of the drop off.

Again, I have a fear of heights but taking off and flying in either aircraft is not my big concern. How the land is my concern. It's funny how thos big aircraft can land on such skinny struts with all that weight. Helos on the other hand can hover a foot above the ground before touching down and the world is a landing zone for the most part. If you have a somewhat level space 20 ft wide and 20 feet long you can land.

[RiverDog]

Since this is a R I P thread this will be my last post on this topic.

Good point. I'll give you the last word and not comment any further on this topic.

[NorthHawk]

Don Shula passes at 90.
What a legacy he left.

[c_hawkbob]

One of, if not the greatest all time coaches. RIP Coach.

[RiverDog]

One of, if not the greatest all time coaches. RIP Coach.

He wasn't as revolutionary as some, such as Paul Brown, but I agree, one of the best ever. RIP.

[Aseahawkfan]

RIP Shula. Face of Dolphins football for half of my life.

[c_hawkbob]

RIP Jerry Sloan.

The first Chicago Bull to have his # retired and the best Utah Jazz coach ever. One of a kind.

[RiverDog]

RIP Jerry Sloan.

The first Chicago Bull to have his # retired and the best Utah Jazz coach ever. One of a kind.

My recollections of Sloan as a player was that he was a tier below Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Earl Monroe. Good but not great, similar to Lenny Wilkens.

RIP.

[c_hawkbob]

Jerry was a lot tougher than Lenny was. He played the 3 like an NFL linebacker.

[RiverDog]

Jerry was a lot tougher than Lenny was. He played the 3 like an NFL linebacker.

I only meant the comparison to be relative to their noteworthiness, not their similarities/differences in style. IMO both Sloan and Wilkens were good, above average, but not great players. They were 2nd tier.

[NorthHawk]

Jim Kiick at 73. Apparently he was battling dimentia the last couple of years.
He and Czonka made a pretty good pair.

[c_hawkbob]

RIIP.

[RiverDog]

Jim Kiick at 73. Apparently he was battling dimentia the last couple of years.
He and Czonka made a pretty good pair.

The pair were known as Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid after a popular movie starring Paul Neuman and Robert Redford. But Kiick eventually got beat out by Mercury Morris, who teamed up with Czonka as the first and only pair of running backs to both crack 1,000 rushing in a season. Due to changes in the game, that record is likely to be around for quite a while.

Although there's no 'good' way to lose a family member, Dementia is a particular difficult one. My condolences to the family.

[RiverDog]

Former Congressman John Lewis died at the age of 80 of pancreatic cancer. Although I seldom agreed with his politics, he was truly a pioneer in the civil rights movement and was a decent, respectable man.

[c_hawkbob]

Former Congressman John Lewis died at the age of 80 of pancreatic cancer. Although I seldom agreed with his politics, he was truly a pioneer in the civil rights movement and was a decent, respectable man.

RIP Sir. An important man in our country's history.