And you thought Redskins is offensive....

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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby savvyman » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:08 pm

Oly wrote:For the curious, here is an article about the climate at Oberlin, perhaps the most extreme campus in the country when it comes to social justice issues. The goal of the piece seems to be to explain the students' perspectives for an outside audience, which means he has to be at least somewhat sympathetic towards them to tell their story as they want it told. That's a long way of saying I think the author is trying to be objective but the tone is certainly sympathetic and more pro-student than you'd normally find in an objective article (and I think it's very well written, if long-winded). But even with the sympathetic tone, I still come away shaking my head at what these students want and as frustrated by them as ever.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/ ... s-colleges


What these kids and maybe some teachers don't realize is that the job market has forever changed to where you had better have some knowledge based degree that has economic value (such as geologist, nursing, physician chemist, computer scientist, accountant, etc...) or a trade skill - because if you don't then you can receive your general non-hard skilled degree such as "Communications" and spend the next 30-40 years sharing all your political & societal viewpoints while getting paid $25,000 doing one of these jobs :


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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby RiverDog » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:47 am

savvyman wrote:What these kids and maybe some teachers don't realize is that the job market has forever changed to where you had better have some knowledge based degree that has economic value (such as geologist, nursing, physician chemist, computer scientist, accountant, etc...) or a trade skill - because if you don't then you can receive your general non-hard skilled degree such as "Communications" and spend the next 30-40 years sharing all your political & societal viewpoints while getting paid $25,000 doing one of these jobs :


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I remember having this discussion with my daughter 12 years ago as she was about to enter college. Essentially what I advised her to do was to look for a field within the health care industry as my baby boomer generation was going to begin to reach the age where we would be needing more and more medical care and that anyone with job skills in that field was going to be in high demand. She's now a registered nurse.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby Oly » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:53 am

savvyman wrote:What these kids and maybe some teachers don't realize is that the job market has forever changed to where you had better have some knowledge based degree that has economic value (such as geologist, nursing, physician chemist, computer scientist, accountant, etc...) or a trade skill - because if you don't then you can receive your general non-hard skilled degree such as "Communications" and spend the next 30-40 years sharing all your political & societal viewpoints while getting paid $25,000 doing one of these jobs:


The market can support both. Obviously, getting training in a profession is really smart...as long as you don't change your mind. But there are two reasons why liberal arts majors can be very successful:

1. Switching careers. Research has shown that the average American worker switches careers several times in their lives. If you major in a technical field, this can be a problem. A good friend of mine got a degree from Auburn that prepared her for a career in TV production (ironically, it was called Mass Communication). Her focus was on the behind-the-scenes production stuff, but after 7 years out of the job market to raise kids, her knowledge was obsolete. She's now a receptionist. A good liberal arts education focuses on the skills that are transferable--especially writing and oral communication--and research has found that they cope better with career switches and advance more quickly after the switch. The trade-off, of course, is that getting that initial job can be more difficult. My sister is an occupational therapist, and after school she had job offers lined up. If there is a career that you know you'll be happy with your whole life, then going this route is certainly the best option. But that's not everyone, and for those people, liberal arts majors can be very good.

2. The skills employers say that they want. If you look at the lists of attributes employers say that they want, you see things like critical thinking, creative problem solving, clear writing ability, etc. Those are developed far more in liberal arts programs. A liberal arts program is filled with assignments that require critical thinking, where you have to diagnose a problem and propose a solution or make an argument, and to do so clearly in a paper. The typical assignment throughout the college where I teach is to think about some topic and come up with your own take on it, using a bunch of different sources to help make your argument. That ability to think broadly about a problem and look for solutions in creative places is really, really important. One of my former students, a psych major, moved up the ranks in the wine industry because of how well he figured out how to solve several problems in a distribution plant, and he's now making a ton of money and drinking ridiculously good wine every day. Not long ago, I was talking to him and he said that his experience doing a massive independent research project, which took a year and required well over 100 hours of independently organized work, was the best preparation he had for his career. He had to organize his time, use spreadsheets to organize lots of different information, collect data, analyze it, write it up, present it at a conference, etc. My sister's training for occupational therapy, in contrast, didn't involve writing a single paper longer than 3 pages, and that was only in her general ed classes. She never had an independent project. Learning how to write and organization take time and practice, and she would have a hard time advancing to the level where she had to write reports, apply for grants, etc.

I'm not saying that these are only taught in liberal arts programs, but there is certainly more emphasis on these things. I see our graduates doing incredibly well, and we have FAR more of our graduates placed in careers within 6 months of graduation than most other schools (the exceptions are engineering, health, and tech programs). I know of a recent political science/philosophy/econ triple major who is making 6 digits after 2 years in the financial industry. My student in the wine industry is another example. I know several entrepreneurs who found that a broad liberal arts education was helpful in starting a business. It's certainly less obvious how to make a career out of a liberal arts degree--which is why I'd say to most parents and college juniors/seniors to seriously consider the quality of Career Services departments when choosing schools--but they can be incredibly valuable degrees.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby burrrton » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:47 am

The trade-off, of course, is that getting that initial job can be more difficult.


Well, it's not just the initial job that's difficult to get- it's subsequent jobs, too. In other words, yeah, maybe things like effective communication are emphasized more and those transfer well from career to career, but they're no more useful (or lucrative) in your 2nd and 3rd careers than they were in your first.

If you look at the lists of attributes employers say that they want, you see things like critical thinking, creative problem solving, clear writing ability, etc. Those are developed far more in liberal arts programs.


Debatable in 2016 for way too many BAs (Comm yes, Grievance Studies no way), but either way, those aren't generally listed as job-specific requirements for six-figure positions- they're typically minimum expectations that anybody can develop far beyond the competence necessary.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby Oly » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:08 am

burrrton wrote:Well, it's not just the initial job that's difficult to get- it's subsequent jobs, too. In other words, yeah, maybe things like effective communication are emphasized more and those transfer well from career to career, but they're no more useful (or lucrative) in your 2nd and 3rd careers than they were in your first.


The research out there on the subject suggests that although career switches are difficult for everyone, they go more smoothly for those with liberal arts degrees. The point I was making wasn't about them being more useful or lucrative in the 2nd or 3rd, it's that they make the 2nd and 3rd more likely to happen. Someone with an architecture degree, for example, will have a harder time transitioning to a career in business management than someone with a history degree. That's just what the research on the topic has found. So while getting a good job with a history degree might be more difficult than with an architecture degree, the person with the history degree is more likely to develop a long and successful second career in a new field than the architect. (We're talking in averages, of course.)

burrrton wrote: Debatable in 2016 for way too many BAs (Comm yes, Grievance Studies no way), but either way, those aren't generally listed as job-specific requirements for six-figure positions- they're typically minimum expectations that anybody can develop far beyond the competence necessary.


I'm with you part-way on this one. As much as I am skeptical of Grievance Studies (or Peace Studies or any other "Studies" major), the fact is that their courses are filled with assignments requiring them to use a variety of sources of information to make an argument. Now, it might be a shitty argument unconnected from the real world, but that kind of assignment repeated over the years does strengthen the ability to think critically insofar as that means thinking creatively about evidence and argument. It likely involves working independently on big projects, or in teams, both of which are skills that employers want out of new employees.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/ ... fb8d81752d

So although the knowledge base built in that major might be worth very, very little, it does develop some skills employers want applicants to have already. But I'm with you in that these majors aren't pitched in this way, and students [mistakenly, I think] believe that they are acquiring the skills necessary to go into a lucrative career in these fields. Basically, those degrees lead to careers in non-profit organizations and, although potentially fulfilling for those students, sure as s*** aren't lucrative or stable. So students think they're getting a "skill" degree like architecture when they aren't really. And if they think that there are good careers out there looking for Grievance Studies majors, I agree with you that they are going to end up with a degree that doesn't do much of anything for them.

The key, I think, is for liberal arts colleges and universities to be clearer with students about what they will be getting with their degrees. Be clear that they are building skills more than they are mastering knowledge that will lead to a career. If students know that, they are more likely to realize that they need to be getting internships or jobs to get the career-specific knowledge, while getting the skills in their degree programs.

But from surveys of employers (e.g., the link above), I think you have it backward for many careers, including business. Employers in business are more likely to say that they would rather hire employees with these broad skills (creative problem solving and ability to work independently are always in the top 3 or so) and train employees on the technical skills, rather than hiring employees with the technical skills and developing competence in writing and thinking along the way. They tend to report that those aren't things most employees can develop along the way.

There are obvious exceptions where there is a minimum knowledge base that will make liberal arts graduates unqualified, which is why I'm not saying that liberal arts degrees are the best. I'm not. My sister's degree in occupational therapy is a fantastic degree, and I think we don't have enough people getting those kinds of degrees and we have too many people getting liberal arts degrees who have no idea why they're doing that. With my own daughters my wife and I stress math and entrepreneurship, so I am putting my money where my mouth is. But I am saying that the market can support both the technical and liberal arts degrees.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby savvyman » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:56 pm

RiverDog wrote:I remember having this discussion with my daughter 12 years ago as she was about to enter college. Essentially what I advised her to do was to look for a field within the health care industry as my baby boomer generation was going to begin to reach the age where we would be needing more and more medical care and that anyone with job skills in that field was going to be in high demand. She's now a registered nurse.



That was really good advice and very insightful on your part. I have recommended the same to people for the past 7 years or so. The aging baby boomer demographic and their votes will ensure plenty of medical care over the next 20-30 years. Also medical care is very difficult - but not impossible - to outsource.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:37 am

savvyman wrote:That was really good advice and very insightful on your part. I have recommended the same to people for the past 7 years or so. The aging baby boomer demographic and their votes will ensure plenty of medical care over the next 20-30 years. Also medical care is very difficult - but not impossible - to outsource.


Thanks, savvy.

But it really wasn't that insightful on my part. They've been wringing their hands over the prospect of the baby boomer generation hitting the nursing homes for decades.

I don't think they'll be doing a lot of outsourcing of medical care, but I can see it becoming more mechanized. Robots to clean rooms, drones to deliver drugs, remote monitoring, that sort of thing.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby burrrton » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:05 pm

Oly wrote:I'm with you part-way on this one. As much as I am skeptical of Grievance Studies (or Peace Studies or any other "Studies" major), the fact is that their courses are filled with assignments requiring them to use a variety of sources of information to make an argument. Now, it might be a shitty argument unconnected from the real world, but that kind of assignment repeated over the years does strengthen the ability to think critically insofar as that means thinking creatively about evidence and argument. It likely involves working independently on big projects, or in teams, both of which are skills that employers want out of new employees.


I never did come back to this.

I think the fact remains, Oly, that those traits that soften the move from position to position are those that can be taught or learned easily, at least as compared to those skills that are learned in an intellectually rigorous discipline like architecture or electrical engineering. If all your position requires is 'good com skills', then moving to another that requires nothing more than 'good com skills' is easy, if nothing more than because those positions are more common.

Easy majors are considered easy for a reason, and high-salary positions are more rare than lower-salaried positions.

Thinking about this, though, I'm not sure we disagree- I just think you're overstating the effect. I'm not sure how to verify this. but I *bet* people with EEs and such survive down economies with more success, but if people making lower salaries continue making low salaries and people making high salaries continue making high salaries but stress more about having to find that high-salaried position, are you wrong?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

[edit]

My wife, who is much smarter and more credentialed than I, makes half what I do because she chose a profession (and position) that affords her/us all the benefits she/we sought (flexible schedules, summers off with the girls, etc). This means, too, that if we ever have to uproot from where we are, her relocation is *nothing* to us- her salary isn't negligible, but there are many positions that would fill it.

My position, however, is harder to come by and not 'fillable' by taking just anything similar on the market. *My* job search would be much, MUCH more a stressor on our family, but that's not because I studied Computer Science instead of Journalism- it's inherent in having a position that pays more money.

I can't help but think that has much greater an effect on those studies you're citing than the greater incidence of public speaking (or whatever) in softer disciplines.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby Oly » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:55 am

burrrton wrote:I never did come back to this.

I think the fact remains, Oly, that those traits that soften the move from position to position are those that can be taught or learned easily, at least as compared to those skills that are learned in an intellectually rigorous discipline like architecture or electrical engineering. If all your position requires is 'good com skills', then moving to another that requires nothing more than 'good com skills' is easy, if nothing more than because those positions are more common.

Easy majors are considered easy for a reason, and high-salary positions are more rare than lower-salaried positions.

Thinking about this, though, I'm not sure we disagree- I just think you're overstating the effect. I'm not sure how to verify this. but I *bet* people with EEs and such survive down economies with more success, but if people making lower salaries continue making low salaries and people making high salaries continue making high salaries but stress more about having to find that high-salaried position, are you wrong?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

[edit]

My wife, who is much smarter and more credentialed than I, makes half what I do because she chose a profession (and position) that affords her/us all the benefits she/we sought (flexible schedules, summers off with the girls, etc). This means, too, that if we ever have to uproot from where we are, her relocation is *nothing* to us- her salary isn't negligible, but there are many positions that would fill it.

My position, however, is harder to come by and not 'fillable' by taking just anything similar on the market. *My* job search would be much, MUCH more a stressor on our family, but that's not because I studied Computer Science instead of Journalism- it's inherent in having a position that pays more money.

I can't help but think that has much greater an effect on those studies you're citing than the greater incidence of public speaking (or whatever) in softer disciplines.


I also don't think we fundamentally disagree. My main argument was my first statement several posts ago: the market can support both. I'm really thinking of the kinds of jobs that benefit from a general liberal arts training are a different portion of the market than the high-paying, hard-to-get jobs that require technical training. And if a person's goal is to make a bunch of money, then I absolutely agree that you should get some technical training in college, whether that's in a health profession, engineering, programming, etc. But the market is also full of jobs that don't require very much technical training at all, and those are the positions that liberal arts majors can thrive in. I read a recent survey of business employers (no link...sorry!) that said their ideal candidate for these kinds of jobs are liberal arts majors who have had enough technical training to hit the ground running. They said that even a single course or internship in something like social media or marketing or visual design could suffice, and a minor certainly would. So an art history major with a minor in marketing would be fully qualified to step into an entry level job in advertising. Again, that person is much less likely to command a huge salary than an engineering student, but there are careers for that person.

I agree with you that someone with sought-after technical skills would likely survive a downturn better, as long as the jobs in that sector are there. But if a downturn hurt your sector of the market, there might not be any jobs in your city. My point wasn't so much about surviving a downturn as it was about switching careers. And research does find liberal arts majors do the best there.

Our only real disagreement, I think, is about how easy those soft skills are to learn. It takes a ton of work to teach them, and that is to students who have bought into the idea that they should learn them. It's only the very smartest students who just pick up those skills. For most, it takes years of intensive instruction to improve.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby burrrton » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:23 am

My main argument was my first statement several posts ago: the market can support both.


I can't disagree with that.

[edit]

Our only real disagreement, I think, is about how easy those soft skills are to learn.


Partially. I might have already said this, but generally speaking, I think most of those can be easily picked up to a high enough degree to get along great in your work environment.

My wife is an Edward R. Murrow School of Communication grad (for her bachelor's), so she's very, *very* adept at the entire range of those behaviors, but going by all my performance reviews for the last 20+ years, I (having taken none of those classes above 200-level), am still considered an excellent teammate, problem solver, planner, verbal communicator, report writer, and so on.

I picked up all those skills doing nothing more than observing others, knowing to listen, and reading a couple books.

Again, I don't suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect (I have a pretty good idea how little I know), so I know I'm nowhere near as good at many of those skills as my Com-grad wife, but I'm good *enough* that there's little functional difference in day-to-day work.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby burrrton » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:44 am

How did I miss this?

obiken wrote:Don't forget to call some Native American Woman Pocahontas, Donald.


Elizabeth Warren is not Native American, obi. 'The Donald' doesn't miss many opportunities to say offensive things, but in this case he's mocking her apparent hijacking of Native American ancestry for professional gain, not NAs themselves.
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Re: And you thought Redskins is offensive....

Postby Rideaducati » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:45 pm

I never thought "redskins" was offensive. I don't let words offend me and I don't get offended for others. I think people feigning offense because they think someone else is/should be offended is a problem that needs to be fixed.
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