This pipeline stuff.

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This pipeline stuff.

Postby EmeraldBullet » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:01 pm

I do not support oil fracking at this point. I am not sure it's safe, and could have big consequences in the future imo. But, the pipeline could provide safer transportation of the crude product to refineries in the south (guess the refineries we have up here aren't an option for some reason?) I have heard that the pipeline would require eminent domain (stealing of land from from families that have already paid taxes on it every year), but I haven't been able to actually confirm that. At the same time the protesters have set vehicles and construction on fire (all in the name of protecting the environment.) To me that's ridiculous. You can't fu>k for virginity. If you believe in a cause why do direct action against your said cause in protest? Like I said before, I don't know that much about the situation, but from what I have seen I disagree with both sides. Please share your input.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:33 am

When you consider over the road and by rail as the alternatives there is no doubt that pipeline is the safest, most economical means of moving great amounts of oil/natural gas. My problem is with the planning. There is no way they would build a pipeline through Arlington National Cemetery, why should it be any more acceptable to build through ancient Indian burial grounds?

I'm not comfortable with fracking myself, I think much more investigation and longer term studies are in order before we jump in with both feet. I understand that there may be some misinformation involved and I'm not going to pretend to know everything about it (but being in the Power industry I do know more than many) but there seem to be enough red flags at this point to warrant a greater measure of caution.

Refining the oil up north and then transporting it OTR or by rail to export ports in the south creates no less need for a pipeline.

Overall I stand with the Standing Rock tribe at this point. More caution and better planning at the very least are in order.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby burrrton » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:54 am

There is no way they would build a pipeline through Arlington National Cemetery, why should it be any more acceptable to build through ancient Indian burial grounds?


Agreed- is the status of that land as an ancient burial ground under dispute (honest question)?

I understand that there may be some misinformation involved and I'm not going to pretend to know everything about it (but being in the Power industry I do know more than many) but there seem to be enough red flags at this point to warrant a greater measure of caution.


What are the valid red flags you're aware of? The most prominent ones I've heard of (earthquakes, flaming faucets, etc) have all been shown to be hysterical nonsense from people who oppose *all* fossil fuels as if solar is going to be powering the planet Real Soon Now.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:10 am

burrrton wrote:What are the valid red flags you're aware of? The most prominent ones I've heard of (earthquakes, flaming faucets, etc) have all been shown to be hysterical nonsense from people who oppose *all* fossil fuels as if solar is going to be powering the planet Real Soon Now.


Contamination of ground water seems to be the most important red flag right now. I also don't as readily dismiss other concerns, there is a difference between "being dismissed as hysterical nonsense" and being "shown to be hysterical nonsense".

I do agree with your stance on green power; we're nowhere near being capable of supplying sufficient green power to meet needs and won't likely be within our lifetimes.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby burrrton » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:01 am

I also don't as readily dismiss other concerns, there is a difference between "being dismissed as hysterical nonsense" and being "shown to be hysterical nonsense".


I don't dismiss them out of hand, either, but I've seen no indication the process contaminates groundwater (there was a study, I believe, that showed improper storage of waste chemicals contaminated a water supply, but to me that's a storage problem, not a fracking problem).

But, eh- I'd bet you're more well-versed than I am on this so I'll trust your overall judgment.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby Steady_Hawk » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:33 pm

Emerald Bullet,

Here's a small take on the situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSqrzIktvNk

I'm personally rooting for Cold Fusion to go mainstream if it's the real deal.
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Re: This pipeline stuff.

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:38 am

c_hawkbob wrote:When you consider over the road and by rail as the alternatives there is no doubt that pipeline is the safest, most economical means of moving great amounts of oil/natural gas. My problem is with the planning. There is no way they would build a pipeline through Arlington National Cemetery, why should it be any more acceptable to build through ancient Indian burial grounds?

I'm not comfortable with fracking myself, I think much more investigation and longer term studies are in order before we jump in with both feet. I understand that there may be some misinformation involved and I'm not going to pretend to know everything about it (but being in the Power industry I do know more than many) but there seem to be enough red flags at this point to warrant a greater measure of caution.

Refining the oil up north and then transporting it OTR or by rail to export ports in the south creates no less need for a pipeline.

Overall I stand with the Standing Rock tribe at this point. More caution and better planning at the very least are in order.


Arlington National Cemetery is not a good analogy. ANC has been around for years and is a National Park that is federally protected. The land in this dispute is on private land and only recently was discovered to potentially contain some historical significance and has no legal protection whatsoever.

But it would seem to me that there should be a reasonable compromise that each party can live with. I don't see why the pipeline company can't make small detours in the line's route to avoid specific areas, use equipment or designs that create less damage than standard bulldozers, or relocate and preserve artifacts as so often times has happened when construction projects like this one butts up against previously undiscovered artifacts. But the protesters need to recognize the need for projects like this. I get irritated with these uncompromising "rebels without a cause" that protest anything and everything under the sun without even knowing exactly what it is they're protesting.

Fossil fuels are going to be around for quite some time to come, and as you stated, using a pipeline to transport them makes the most sense from an economical, environmental, and public safety aspect, so the question is not if we should build a pipeline but where should it go.
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