President Trump

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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:32 pm

I do feel strongly that the intent of a law or policy is a critical component just as important as the wording of it and that comments made by a president, or any other lawmaker, are fair game when judging intent.


I don't think you grasp how dangerously slippery that slope is, and it's frightening when otherwise rational people start embracing a judiciary that rules based on feelings.

According to all I've read, it's virtually certain the 9th C. will be reversed by the SCOTUS again. For better or worse.
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:11 pm

burrrton wrote:I don't think you grasp how dangerously slippery that slope is, and it's frightening when otherwise rational people start embracing a judiciary that rules based on feelings.

According to all I've read, it's virtually certain the 9th C. will be reversed by the SCOTUS again. For better or worse.


I understand the slippery slope and that this decision, if it is upheld, could set a precedent. But there are times when you have to set aside concern for precedent and do what's right. It's something that the courts should have done when FDR signed an executive order that sent tens of thousands of law abiding Americans of Japanese decent (as well as other Asians) to internment camps.

There's more to our laws than what is committed to paper. There's this little thing called "the spirit of the law", or what it's intent or purpose is. Trump has made no bones about his bias towards Muslims. You cannot ignore what he said on the campaign trail and what he's said in his daily tweets and say that his executive order was not based on that bias.

Besides, it's about time he start being held accountable for his shock campaigning and off the wall tweets.
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Re: President Trump

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:41 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Urban people deal with a much higher crime rate due to the population concentration. Of course, the yuppie leftists in power want to take all the guns away so they can feel safe, while they hand out welfare and create cities full of poor people with no hope of a brighter future looking to slang and bang to make more money. It won't help taking away weapons, but it makes them feel like helps. People getting beaten, stabbed, and mugged is less sensationalistic and survivable than shootings. Thus it makes the yuppie liberals feel like they did something useful, even though they set up a much worse situation for abuse by criminals.

Criminals tend to love societies where their victims have less of a chance to arm themselves. Makes it easier to rob and exploit them with less chance of getting killed. That's why every single criminal, tyranical regime in history has disarmed their people and instituted gun/weapon control to ensure their control over the population. It's exactly why our ancestors wrote the 2nd Amendment (meaning directly after the 1st) to ensure a major check on the balance of power of the government was an armed population.

Self-defense on all levels was the primary purpose of the 2nd Amendment, and especially a check on the government's military power. Americans should never give it up without a fight. It is our right to fight back if we are tyrannized.


Feeding off this tangent as not to start another thread, but I thought it was interesting and disturbing that attacks using caustic, corrosive liquids is on the rise in London, a city which has very strict gun laws. Now instead of getting shot, people are getting their faces melted and scarred and losing their eye sight. People dead set on inflicting pain will find a way to do it, and it doesn't seem that restricting firearms helped in this case and likely won't at all.

And Trump is an idiot, and the Dems did this to themselves. I do hope there is enough sanity in D.C. to keep some form of balance until the next election.

*Edit* I don't like the term idiot; Trump obviously has some smarts about him or else he wouldn't have accomplished what he has in his life, and that includes his shady dealings. Idiots usually can't game the system successfully. He's not the man for this job, though, and both parties better wise up and get a candidate that can legitimately reach across party lines.
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:49 pm

There's more to our laws than what is committed to paper.


Holy smokes, RD- no, there's not (except in very rare cases where the language is ambiguous, etc). We're a nation of laws, not men, and all that.

Leaving the question of legality up to some subjective interpretation of what's in a person's head is literally the opposite of a just society.

In this case, it's either a ban on Muslims or it isn't (or whatever other objections people have to it)- that doesn't become OK if he didn't "mean it to be" or some dmn thing.

I understand the slippery slope and that this decision, if it is upheld, could set a precedent.


Ya think?
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:36 pm

RiverDog wrote:
I understand the slippery slope and that this decision, if it is upheld, could set a precedent. But there are times when you have to set aside concern for precedent and do what's right. It's something that the courts should have done when FDR signed an executive order that sent tens of thousands of law abiding Americans of Japanese decent (as well as other Asians) to internment camps.

There's more to our laws than what is committed to paper. There's this little thing called "the spirit of the law", or what it's intent or purpose is. Trump has made no bones about his bias towards Muslims. You cannot ignore what he said on the campaign trail and what he's said in his daily tweets and say that his executive order was not based on that bias.

Besides, it's about time he start being held accountable for his shock campaigning and off the wall tweets.

Bias against people who blow up, behead, run over with cars and trucks, shoot, stab, burn alive etc.., other people, is exactly why many of us voted for Trump, and why we think that the ban needs to be upheld.
It's too bad that so many people in this country are so ignorant when it's comes to Islam, it's ideology, history, goals, and political agendas.

For example, do you know that we ARE in fact at war with Islam? Not terror, but Islam itself.
People keep saying we're not at war with a religion but those poor mislead fools are factually wrong.
It is not us who declared war though, war was declared on all infidels by the so called prophet back in the seventh century.
You see, Islam views the entire world as two houses, the house of Islam, and the house of war.
The house of war, is everyone who is not Islamic.
We are in fact at war, according to Islam, the stated goal of Islam is in fact, world domination through jihad.

Did you know that Islam teaches that, before people were created, Allah brought all the human souls who would ever live throughout all of time, to a great plain, where they all heard the truth of Allah and his prophet; therefore, if you are not Islamic, it is because you already rejected Islam?
Did you know that makes you an infidel, because you've already rejected Allah, and the only punishment for that rejection is death?
That is Islam.
There is nothing beautiful, peaceful or remotely good about that evil cult. That is exactly what it is, a cult.
It's not truly, a religion, it's a political system wrapped in religious garb.

Did you know that Allah is fickle, and no matter how good you lived your life, that is no guarantee of heaven? There is only one guaranteed way of getting into heaven according to the death cult that is Islam, dying in jihad!
If you die in jihad, it is a guarantee of heaven, the only guarantee Islam gives.
THAT is the real reason for terrorism! All the Bullspit reasons the media feeds you are lies.

A while back, two men rammed a car into the gates of Scotland's biggest airport. The car was filled with gas, which they intended to use to blow up as many people as possible.
The two men​ failed miserably, instead, they managed to burn​ themselves horribly, they died, slowly and painfully much later in a hospital.
Now, you probably think those two were poor disenfranchised youth right? That is what the media would have you believe after all... They just need jobs right?
They were both wealthy, medical doctors!
Why did they do it?
For the same reason that the guy who blew himself up at the concert did.
That terrorist's sister explained perfectly, when after receiving news of his death, she sent him an email/tweet which read, "Congratulations on entering into Paradise!"

Wake up people, wake up Americans, the enemy of freedom is at our doorstep, and our government wants to let them in!
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:55 pm

...and why we think that the ban needs to be upheld.


Point of contention: it's not a Muslim ban (even though Trump stupidly keeps calling it that himself)- it's a pause in immigration from 7 countries identified by a previous administration as having no effective way to vet potential immigrants. Hardly controversial (although probably not effective) except that a few judges think Trump's too mean to be allowed to enact such a pause.

It's an odd "ban" that allows Muslims to continue coming here in great numbers.
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Re: President Trump

Postby Largent80 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:22 pm

Monkey should change the name to ostrich, because that head is firmly buried.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:09 pm

For example, do you know that we ARE in fact at war with Islam? Not terror, but Islam itself.
People keep saying we're not at war with a religion but those poor mislead fools are factually wrong.
It is not us who declared war though, war was declared on all infidels by the so called prophet back in the seventh century.
You see, Islam views the entire world as two houses, the house of Islam, and the house of war.
The house of war, is everyone who is not Islamic.
We are in fact at war, according to Islam, the stated goal of Islam is in fact, world domination through jihad.


Good lord this is the most ill informed narrow minded pure BS thing I've ever read in hear. You are one scary dude Monkey. The average Muslim looks at jihadists in the same light that the average Christian views members of the Jonesboro Baptist Church.

It's absolutely a war on terror, including homegrown terrorists like McVeigh. They don't at all have to be Muslim.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:43 pm

burrrton wrote:Point of contention: it's not a Muslim ban (even though Trump stupidly keeps calling it that himself)- it's a pause in immigration from 7 countries identified by a previous administration as having no effective way to vet potential immigrants. Hardly controversial (although probably not effective) except that a few judges think Trump's too mean to be allowed to enact such a pause.

It's an odd "ban" that allows Muslims to continue coming here in great numbers.
You're absolutely correct Burrton.

It's beyond the pale that there are people in this country who care more about virtue signaling than they do protecting the citizens of this country who they've sworn oaths to protect.
Pathetic

Sorry, Largent but if you want to be taken seriously you have to do better than accuse me of the very thing that is most true of you.
I presented a case using actual arguments and facts and the best you can come up with is, my head is in the sand?
That's laughable, if it weren't so pathetic.
Try refuting ANY of what I said. You cannot.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:00 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:
Good lord this is the most ill informed narrow minded pure BS thing I've ever read in hear. You are one scary dude Monkey. The average Muslim looks at jihadists in the same light that the average Christian views members of the Jonesboro Baptist Church.

It's absolutely a war on terror, including homegrown terrorists like McVeigh. They don't at all have to be Muslim.

You are far more scary to me in your refusal to be intellectually honest.
There are Islamic terrorists events DAILY worldwide and you want to equate that with McVeigh? That's ridiculous.
Narrow minded? Refute what I said or you've got nothing.
Ill informed? I'm very well informed! I would guess that's why you're trying to suggest you are somehow morally superior, so you can shut me up. It's a common practice of those on the left to tell people with opposing views, that they are bigots rather than argue their points.
Refute my points, or don't bother posting, because you're ad hominem attacks are weak sauce.

BTW, you are factually wrong about what you said about the average Muslim. Polls show conclusively that the average Muslim wants shariah law in the United States, and would NOT turn in a Muslim if he was a suspected jihadist.
You're wrong.
There's a "religion" out there that sanctions genocide, murder, pedophilia, necrophilia (please challenge me to prove that!! Trust me when I say that is easily proven to be fact!), rape, spouse abuse, honor killings, the death penalty for blasphemy, the death penalty for homosexuality, (and I haven't even gotten to jihad yet), and I'm the "scary one" for suggesting that such a "religion", is evil?
You are frightening for NOT seeing just how scary it is!

Edit: "most" Christians don't observe foot washing ceremonially, though there are some few exceptions.
Clearly any Christian who does observe foot washing can and should point to the Bible as their authority for doing so. You wouldn't say that foot washing isn't Christian, just because "most" Christians don't observe it would you?
Then why do people like you say that because"most" Muslims aren't actively suicide bombing, that is not Islamic to do so, when it is CLEARLY prescribed by the Koran?
When Islamic people kill infidels and tell you flat out, that it is for Islam, in the name of Islam, how dare you say that I am scary for taking them at face value? Who are you to say they are lying about their motivation? How do you lefties claim to know what their religion motivates then to do better than they do?
This hypocrisy is so tiresome!
I can promise you that if a Christian blew up a abortion facility and said he did it for GOD, you people would be jumping up and down, claiming that he is a representative of all Christianity. I see it all the time.
There have been a grand total of 14 Abortion doctors killed by crazies since Roe, who thought they were doing God's work, and every time someone brings up Islamic terrorists, some Lefty invariably brings up Abortion doctors who were killed, even though the numbers arer simply not even remotely comparable.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:59 am

Intellectually dishonest because I refuse to embrace the hate and bigotry you wallow in? If that's the case, so be it.

The truth is I've known Muslims personally. Served with them, worked with one for 10 years and played chess with one for a few years (he was a lot like you, defended the gassing of the Kurds saying "but they're not like regular people, they're like your hillbillies) ... Had one for a son in law. I'll trust what I have seen for myself in interactions with these friends and acquaintances of mine that grew up in the religion over anything you have read on line, so spare me further edification. You're quite frankly full of crap.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:47 am

I love it, I give you what the Koran actually says, and you call me a bigot. I give you facts pertaining to an ideology, while saying nothing hateful about the actual people who follow that ideology, and you call me a hater.
That's the left for you.
You're factually probably wrong, but please continue to attack me rather than what I have said.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:03 am

monkey wrote:I love it, I give you what the Koran actually says, and you call me a bigot. I give you facts pertaining to an ideology, while saying nothing hateful about the actual people who follow that ideology, and you call me a hater.
That's the left for you.
You're factually probably wrong, but please continue to attack me rather than what I have said.


Don't give me that "you attacked me" crap, you've made it personal with every single poster that has dared disagree with you and in each case you've drawn first blood. Give it a rest already.

And your facts are no more "facts" concerning ideology than are the facts that justified the crusades the primary christian ideology. As with any religion, its all in the interpretation. Extremism is the enemy, in any belief system and extremists NEVER represent the entire population as a whole.
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Re: President Trump

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:44 am

One of the largest promoters of Muslim extremism is the Wahhabi sect. This has a firm foothold in Saudi Arabia and is said to be financed by SA outside of the Middle East.
Not to throw a curve, but how much money or arms was provided to SA recently and is it a good idea to continue to do so? Wasn't it something like 5 or 6 Billion in military aid?
International politics is a big mess, but it's important to differentiate the players in the game.

In comparison to Christianity, the extremist Irish Catholics that bombed and killed did not represent the Catholics throughout the world just as the extremist Muslims don't represent the rest of the Muslims around the world.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:47 am

In what way?
When you make a statement like that, YOU need to provide evidence of that!
Those is another red herring designed to blame me because you can't counter my arguments.
My arguments, (and I haven't even really gotten started showing what a corrupt, evil ideology it's really is yet!), Have only been again Islam NOT against Muslim people!
You are the one who has made it personal.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:02 am

Calling me intellectually dishonest is an ad hominem attack.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:08 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Calling me intellectually dishonest is an ad hominem attack.

As is calling me a scary bigoted small minded etc..., which you said FIRST.
You should quit Bob before you look worse than you do now. Either quit or actually refute a single idea. All you have done so far is call me a bigot... You got anything else at all?

See the problem you are facing is, you're arguing with someone who is actually EXTREMELY knowledgeable​ about Islam, and you are​ arguing with someone who doesn't back down just because you call him a bigot.

Call me what you like Bob, I will continue to explain what Islam actually teaches, while specifically NOT attacking Muslims themselves.
I am attacking an ideology Bob, an idea.. you can't be a bigot for attacking an idea Bob.

When confronted with an idea Bob, refute it and prove it wrong, or, if you cannot prove it wrong, then accept it as truth, and revise your own thinking accordingly.
It's that simple.
If you refuse to do either, but instead, attack me personally for my ideas, then it is YOU who are in the wrong.
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Re: President Trump

Postby Largent80 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:04 pm

There is your 2nd amendment at work when a senator is shot while at a baseball practice. Yey, lets get more guns
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:55 pm

Largent80 wrote:There is your 2nd amendment at work when a senator is shot while at a baseball practice. Yey, lets get more guns


Holy sht- you just got through wishing death on someone over a political disagreement, and now you have the *gall* to blame this on your favorite boogeyman?

We can draw a straight fcking line from bullsh*t rhetoric like you used to psychos like this guy opening fire on politicians he doesn't like.

You're a complete f*cking tool, largent. Say hello to the mute list. Get some self-awareness.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Largent80 wrote:There is your 2nd amendment at work when a senator is shot while at a baseball practice. Yey, lets get more guns

Wow... Burrton was right in what he called you.
This lunatic leftist, Bernie Sanders supporter, Trump hater, did EXACTLY what you were advocating not long ago.
Your rhetoric is vile, poisonous and evil. You were the first person I thought of when I heard about the shooting precisely​ because of what you said.
And Bob called ME scary! Wow just wow!
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:46 pm

burrrton wrote:Leaving the question of legality up to some subjective interpretation of what's in a person's head is literally the opposite of a just society.


It didn't involve any subjective interpretation at all. Trump told us what was in his head, through his recorded statements on the campaign trail and his various tweets. He wants to ban Muslims, even went so far as to give Christians preferential treatment in his EO.

Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality. Where necessary and appropriate, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall recommend legislation to the President that would assist with such prioritization.

I don't know how anyone can claim that is some sort of subjective interpretation of what's in someone's head. He's painting all Muslims with one brush stroke as potential terrorists, just like FDR painted all Japanese Americans as potential spies and saboteurs.

burrrton wrote:Point of contention: it's not a Muslim ban (even though Trump stupidly keeps calling it that himself).


And you're telling me that I'm trying to figure out what's in Trump's head? Is that not enough proof for you of what the man is thinking? If that doesn't do the trick, just what does he have to say to convince you that his ban is religious in nature?
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:09 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:It's absolutely a war on terror, including homegrown terrorists like McVeigh. They don't at all have to be Muslim.


Agreed wholeheartedly. The attacker in Virginia didn't look very Muslim to me. It looks more like a Republican hater on the far left.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol ... story.html
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:25 pm

Is that not enough proof for you of what the man is thinking?


I don't *care* what he was "thinking" or what words he used- he's an idiot (IMO- don't feel like debating it). He will use whatever verbiage everyone else is using. Call it easily influenced or something- it doesn't turn a non-ban into a ban because he's too stupid to parse his phrasing or because he has malice in his heart.

And that ignores that "what he's thinking" doesn't change the language of the EO- again, it either bans Muslims or it doesn't, whatever he's thinking. Language has meaning.

Also, prioritizing based on religious persecution is not new, RD- I know you know this. Doing so doesn't make the pause a "ban" on any religion not given priority. Muslims are still flowing into the country like everyone else.

Thing is, I think you also know this and might be letting your dislike for the guy color your opinions a bit too much.

just like FDR painted all Japanese Americans as potential spies and saboteurs.


You'll notice nobody has to point to FDR's campaign remarks to decide whether internment was right or wrong.
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:38 pm

burrrton wrote:You'll notice nobody has to point to FDR's campaign remarks to decide whether internment was right or wrong.


Since Pearl Harbor was attacked in December of 1941, there was no campaign to make such remarks, and unlike the case with Trump, the vast majority of Americans, including Congress and the Supreme Court, felt that FDR was acting appropriately so even had he made remarks about internment, not many would have pointed to them as being right or wrong.

My point was that in 1942 the courts should have stepped in and protected its law abiding citizens and set aside Roosevelt's EO or at least made him modify it. Do you disagree?
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:49 pm

Do you disagree?


Of course not, but they wouldn't have had to rely on some subjective interpretation of his "intent" as expressed in tweets to do so. It was as obvious a trampling of civil rights as there could be this side of slavery.
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:25 pm

burrrton wrote:Of course not, but they wouldn't have had to rely on some subjective interpretation of his "intent" as expressed in tweets to do so. It was as obvious a trampling of civil rights as there could be this side of slavery. Whether they should or shouldn't have wasn't affected by his opinion.


FDR used the same justification in his EO, that being national security, for sending tens of thousands of citizens to internment camps as Trump is using for his Muslim ban. FDR was discriminating based on a person's race/nationality just like Trump is discriminating based on a person's religion/nationality. In both cases, the executive orders should have been set aside because they discriminated based on race, religion and/or national origin. That was my point.

You keep claiming that the interpretation of Trump's words and tweets are subjective. Now you tell me: What is so damn subjective about the following when he called for: "...a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on...." or "People, the lawyers and the courts can call it whatever they want, but I am calling it what we need and what it is, a TRAVEL BAN!

That seems pretty unambiguous to me.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:35 am

RiverDog wrote:
Agreed wholeheartedly. The attacker in Virginia didn't look very Muslim to me. It looks more like a Republican hater on the far left.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol ... story.html


Exactly my point! Extremism is the enemy, not an ideology. Wingnuts of any variety are the bad guys.

And Monkey, when I said "narrow minded and bigoted" I was addressing your message quite specifically, but I was addressing you when I called you a scary dude, so I'll cede that point. But again, I find extremists scary people.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:40 am

As do I Bob.
To me an extremist is someone who would allow a group of people, who follow an ideology, whose stated objective is world domination into my country, for the sake of politics.
It's scary to me that I could wake up tomorrow to discover that some as$ hat smuggled in a dirty bomb, or took my family hostage, or etc..., just so people on the left can virtue signal, and claim moral superiority to those of us who are aware of what Islam really teaches, and only want to protect our families and friends from that evil.

An ideology IS the enemy, when that ideology is opposed to equal rights, Christians, Jews, homosexuality, teaches that those people MUST be beheaded, our or horribly killed, and states as it's objective, WORLD domination.
Islam teaches, in fact, commands, all of that and so, so much more.
The fact that some Muslims ignore the commands doesn't make Islam okay it just means that their conscience was stronger than the evil ideology they follow.

You wouldn't have made the same claim about ideology not being enemy in world war 2 Bob, when not all germans believed in exterminating Jews, and not all Japanese believed in suicide attacks would you?
CLEARLY the Nazi ideology and Japanese suicide ideology were the problem, were the enemy, not the average German or Japanese right?
Same here Bob.

You need to learn what Islam really is, they you'll realize it WORSE than NAZI ideology. It is far, far worse. It believes exactly the same as Nazis rewarding Jews, but add in Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and EVERYONE who is not Islamic to that list.
ISIS is Islam in is purest form, most closely following it's teachings.
What we mean when we say that someone is radical, is simply, that person really believes that s#it Islam teaches.
Last edited by monkey on Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:47 am

I'm sorry but no, you need to learn what Islam really is by meeting and interacting with real Muslims rather than what you're reading on the internet or listening to on political talk shows. Your views on Islam are absolutely extreme.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:15 am

[quot double
Last edited by monkey on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:27 am

c_hawkbob wrote:I'm sorry but no, you need to learn what Islam really is by meeting and interacting with real Muslims rather than what you're reading on the internet or listening to on political talk shows. Your views on Islam are absolutely extreme.

Horseshat! You have no idea how much interaction I have had with Muslims Bob! My wife WAS one Bob! She speaks Bosnian because all her friends were Muslims from Bosnia Bob
I know more Muslims than you have ever met! Stop lecturing and virtue signaling! You DON'T actually learn a damned thing from the average Muslim about Islam because like most "Christians", they were born into it and aren't really observant Bob.

Do you realize how laughable what you just said is?
No Bob, any sane person who wants to know what Christianity is, reads the Bible Bob.
You certainly don't talk to some guy who says he is a Christian because he goes to church on Easter.
My word Bob, that argument is beyond ridiculous.
You actually just told me I can't ​find out what an ideology stands for by reading the book(s) it's based on.
It's the ONLY way Bob! Especially when their book commands them to LIE to infidels, Bob!
Just concede this debate already...
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:52 am

That seems pretty unambiguous to me.


I used "ambiguity" addressing "spirit of the law", not his dopey tweets and speeches.

The point, though, is that it doesn't matter what is said about it- the law (or EO) is the law.

If he had spent his entire campaign saying he thinks the US should admit more Muslims, then enacted an actual ban on them entering the country, it wouldn't make that hypothetical EO any less discriminatory, would it?

Of course not.
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Re: President Trump

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:39 am

monkey wrote:Horseshat! You have no idea how much interaction I have had with Muslims Bob! My wife WAS one Bob! She speaks Bosnian because all her friends were Muslims from Bosnia Bob
I know more Muslims than you have ever met! Stop lecturing and virtue signaling! You DON'T actually learn a damned thing from the average Muslim about Islam because like most "Christians", they were born into it and aren't really observant Bob.

Do you realize how laughable what you just said is?
No Bob, any sane person who wants to know what Christianity is, reads the Bible Bob.
You certainly don't talk to some guy who says he is a Christian because he goes to church on Easter.
My word Bob, that argument is beyond ridiculous.
You actually just told me I can't ​find out what an ideology stands for by reading the book(s) it's based on.
It's the ONLY way Bob! Especially when their book commands them to LIE to infidels, Bob!
Just concede this debate already...


You telling me I need to learn more about Islam is OK but when I say it to you it's lecturing? What a crock. You absolutely cannot handle disagreement without attacking the person disagreeing with you so I'll just not continue this conversation further. Enjoy your delusions.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:08 am

c_hawkbob wrote:You telling me I need to learn more about Islam is OK but when I say it to you it's lecturing? What a crock. You absolutely cannot handle disagreement without attacking the person disagreeing with you so I'll just not continue this conversation further. Enjoy your delusions.

lol, nicely played. You dodged the actual points made, yet again, all while accusing me of basically being an ahole, while still getting in the last word, and claiming you quit debating (you never started!), because I'm impossible to talk to or whatever.
I hope you feel superior. Too bad you still have yet to refute anything I said.
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Re: President Trump

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:41 pm

burrrton wrote:I used "ambiguity" addressing "spirit of the law", not his dopey tweets and speeches.

The point, though, is that it doesn't matter what is said about it- the law (or EO) is the law.


Yes, you did use "ambiguity" in addressing the subject of his dopy tweets and speeches:

"but they wouldn't have had to rely on some subjective interpretation of his "intent" as expressed in tweets to do so."


No one is relying on "some subjective interpretation of his tweets and speeches. If Trump has done anything that I can compliment him on, it's that he's made his feelings and motivations quite clear. I wish more politicians were as honest and readable as Trump is about his true beliefs. It's a lot different than these lawyers-turned-politicians that we've been treated to in the past.

Trump is looking for a legal way to ban Muslims. He said so to Rudy G., a conservative Republican once considered by Trump as a possible AG. It's going to be extremely difficult for me to get past those dopey tweets and speeches. Most judges agree that they are relevant.

The EO isn't the law until it has passed through the court system, which so far, it has failed to do.
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Re: President Trump

Postby burrrton » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:18 pm

The EO isn't the law until it has passed through the court system, which so far, it has failed to do.


*sigh* C'mon- you know what I meant.

Most judges agree that they are relevant.


No, a couple have, and their rationale for doing so has dumbfounded most. Whatever you think of the wisdom of the EO, it's a tortured path of argument to get to "The POTUS doesn't have the authority to pause immigration from failed states because he's an @sshole".

No matter what he said, if the EO doesn't ban Muslims, it doesn't ban Muslims. There's no way to get around that tautology.

I'm done arguing about it, though- the Supremes will have the final say, although I'm not sure it will matter at that point.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:39 pm

I'll say this, if, something horrible happens terrorist related in this country, while the ban is on hold, the ass hat judges need to be held personally responsible!
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Re: President Trump

Postby Largent80 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:11 pm

monkey wrote:I'll say this, if, something horrible happens terrorist related in this country, while the ban is on hold, the ass hat judges need to be held personally responsible!

Which totally explains why you are a jackass.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:36 pm

Said the guy who was hoping someone would shoot and kill the President.

I'm sorry but you have no credibility after that and are not even worth arguing with.
Call me whatever you like, but I stand by calling for judges to be fired if a terrorist strikes here in the U.S. because of their horsefeathers​ ruling! You better believe I stand by it!!
In fact, I'll lead the charge, start petitions, write congressmen and senators, DEMANDING that they be held accountable for their politically motivated decision!

A judge NEEDS to make​ his rulings by the law NOT politics! If something happens, (and I pray it doesn't, because unlike you, I don't wish harm on anyone), then you had better believe I will DEMAND they be held accountable!

If I'm an ahole for demanding accountability for these rogue judges, then so be it! I'll happily wear that label.
You had better just hope your lunatic party members stop this insane hatred and quit making stupid threats!

You regressives have lost what passed for your minds.
You best collectively pull your heads out of your sphincters! This shooting should have been a wake up call, but apparently, you can't be woken up.
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Re: President Trump

Postby monkey » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:35 pm

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