The Russia thing

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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:57 pm

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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:25 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Not necessarily. In much the same way as George Papadopoulos Flynn was given an extremely favorable plea.

He has got to be expected and probably has already delivered some big time leads in the investigation or it would not have happened.

Over the last couple of days reports surfaced that Kushner was called in by mueller a month ago to testify what he knew about Flynn.What did he say under penalty of perjury and does this line up with what Flynn has testified to?
This thing is about to blow wide open. Pretty hard to call it a nothingburger now......


I don't know. You would think the charges would be much worse for the subordinates if it was going to be blown wide open. If the best they have at the moment is lying to the FBI, that isn't much. I'm still waiting for the serious charges to come. They make it sound like they pressured Flynn's son in some kind of Turkey Espionage deal. This whole thing seems very convoluted with these guys having charges for other things unrelated to Trump and election rigging. The press is doing their best to make this seem very bad for Trump, but the news stories themselves don't have much to do dish other than these guys were dirty for doing things other than election rigging like money laundering and acting on behalf of Turkey.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:41 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Trump may be brought to trial, but whether he will be removed from office I'm not sure of. So far they are getting people for old charges involving money laundering and lying to the FBI. I'm not sure Trump has been subpoenaed or under oath for investigations. He may soon be.


The math doesn't look good for removal from office. The R's already control the Senate and they don't have to defend very many seats in the mid terms. It requires a 2/3 vote for conviction in an impeachment trial, meaning that about half of the R's along with all the Dems would have to be persuaded in order to remove Trump from office. It's going to take a major, major bombshell revelation to obtain that kind of negative vote.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:01 pm

RiverDog wrote:The math doesn't look good for removal from office. The R's already control the Senate and they don't have to defend very many seats in the mid terms. It requires a 2/3 vote for conviction in an impeachment trial, meaning that about half of the R's along with all the Dems would have to be persuaded in order to remove Trump from office. It's going to take a major, major bombshell revelation to obtain that kind of negative vote.


Does impeachment prevent you from running for a second term?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:40 am

Hawktawk wrote:Not necessarily. In much the same way as George Papadopoulos Flynn was given an extremely favorable plea.

He has got to be expected and probably has already delivered some big time leads in the investigation or it would not have happened.

Over the last couple of days reports surfaced that Kushner was called in by mueller a month ago to testify what he knew about Flynn.What did he say under penalty of perjury and does this line up with what Flynn has testified to?
This thing is about to blow wide open. Pretty hard to call it a nothingburger now......


Good guess but no.

This was released way before Mueller wanted to release it because it is all he had to wipe the tax bill passing by the Senate off the front pages of the newspapers.

So here's what Flynn conffesses to.

He contacted the Russians during the transition phase in December of 2016. Uh.... So let's see, he is contatcting the Russians after the election in regards to Collusion. That's like saying "man robs bank". Oops, man make ATM withdrawal from bank.

So now lets get to Flynn. Have you ever heard about Fruit of the poison tree? Flynn was fired by the White House because he "LIED" to V.P. Pence about his contact with the Russians. Now he has "LIED" to the FBI about the same contact. (on a side note, the media and some posters are acting like this is "NEW NEWS" which is laughable on its face.) So now he is on record for lying twice. Do you think any of his testimony is credible regarding turning state's evidence?

Now let's talk about the actual act of what he did. During a transitional government, he reached out to another foreign power and made contact as a national security advisor. That's what transitional governments do. This is what is so confusing about Flynn lying to Pence and the FBI. There is nothing illegal in what he did. There's nothing illegal in a "Sr. Administration Official" telling him to contact the Russian ambassador.

So let's summarize. Flynn is not a credible witness. He lied about doing legal and normal stuff. There is no collusion to rig the election. All this has done is remove the tax reform bill passing in the Senate from the headlines of all news outlets.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:09 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Does impeachment prevent you from running for a second term?


Nope. They can only remove them for the balance of the term. In the Constitution, there are only 4 disqualifying conditions for a POTUS candidate: They must be at least 35 years old, they must be a natural born citizen, they must have lived in the US for at least 14 years, and they can't have served as POTUS for more than 1 1/2 terms.

Your question does pose an interesting scenario: Suppose Congress impeaches and removes from office President Smith, then 6 months later, former President Smith runs again and is elected POTUS by a landslide. It would be an interesting fight between the people and their elected representatives.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:42 am

Whatever ones opinion of the gravity of the scandal it was sweet music to my ears watching the fake news replay Flynn chanting “lock her up”.

Sweeter still watching rump praise Flynn over and over in clip after clip. This isn’t the coffee boy.

As for trump apologists trying to pass this off as normal activities by an incoming administration even assuming you are correct there is no question Trump repeatedly tried to hinder the investigation and he and aides have been liars from the beginning.there is trump himself doctoring a false statement from don jr about the trump
Tower meeting aboard AF 1. Concealment and deception evidence of guilt . The coverup
Trumps the crime.


Whistle in the graveyard if you must. I see problems ahead for trump train
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:28 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Whatever ones opinion of the gravity of the scandal it was sweet music to my ears watching the fake news replay Flynn chanting “lock her up”.

Sweeter still watching rump praise Flynn over and over in clip after clip. This isn’t the coffee boy.

As for trump apologists trying to pass this off as normal activities by an incoming administration even assuming you are correct there is no question Trump repeatedly tried to hinder the investigation and he and aides have been liars from the beginning.there is trump himself doctoring a false statement from don jr about the trump
Tower meeting aboard AF 1. Concealment and deception evidence of guilt . The coverup
Trumps the crime.


Whistle in the graveyard if you must. I see problems ahead for trump train


I just wish this would get over. My main concern is I'm holding money out of the market until this Trump thing is resolved. The market dropped 350 points on a false news story from ABC that implicated Trump in the rigmarole with Flynn. If a 350 point drop occurred from false reporting, the drop will be much bigger if something really happens to Trump. If he evades any charges, the market will rise. If he is charged, it will fall hard. It's like when he won the election. You weren't sure what was going to happen and the outcome was going to have a major effect on the market.

It's dragging out to the detriment of the nation.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:03 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I just wish this would get over. My main concern is I'm holding money out of the market until this Trump thing is resolved. The market dropped 350 points on a false news story from ABC that implicated Trump in the rigmarole with Flynn. If a 350 point drop occurred from false reporting, the drop will be much bigger if something really happens to Trump. If he evades any charges, the market will rise. If he is charged, it will fall hard. It's like when he won the election. You weren't sure what was going to happen and the outcome was going to have a major effect on the market.

It's dragging out to the detriment of the nation.


That would be my only concern if Trump ever got close enough to impeachment. The markets hate uncertainty, and if Trump ever got into serious enough trouble that impeachment became a real possibility, everyone is going to start pulling their money out of the market.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:07 am

Hawktawk wrote:Whatever ones opinion of the gravity of the scandal it was sweet music to my ears watching the fake news replay Flynn chanting “lock her up”.

Sweeter still watching rump praise Flynn over and over in clip after clip. This isn’t the coffee boy.

As for trump apologists trying to pass this off as normal activities by an incoming administration even assuming you are correct there is no question Trump repeatedly tried to hinder the investigation and he and aides have been liars from the beginning.there is trump himself doctoring a false statement from don jr about the trump
Tower meeting aboard AF 1. Concealment and deception evidence of guilt . The coverup
Trumps the crime.


Whistle in the graveyard if you must. I see problems ahead for trump train


So lets break down your statements above. Trump helped his son prepare for a congressional hearing and that is obstruction of justice. Riiiiight! There is nothing else that was done to obstruct other than what was already known, that Flynn lied to V.P. Pence and then the FBI about contacting the Russian ambassador after the election. None of which is illegal outside the lying. The confusing part is that he didn't need to lie.

Now that Mueller has charged Flynn with lying, Flynn is no longer a credible witness and has disqualified any of his testimony for future prosecutions. Now we are hearing that 6 months ago his top investigator was let go from the Special Counsel's investigation because of his Anti Trump bias and pro Hillary tweets to another FBI agent. This particular SR. Investigator was present at Hillary's interview in the email scandal and the Sr. Investigator in the whole Hillary email server investigation. He also was present when Comey drafted the exhoneration document of Hillary. Talk about obstruction. Now they have to open that whole thing up again.

Now that this guy has been fired from Mueller's staff, he is now leading the FBI's H.R. division. I bet that changes soon.

The whistling past the graveyard is not being done by republcans, it is the democrats who are accusing the Trump administration of the crimes that the democrats are actually commiting.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:12 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:
I just wish this would get over. My main concern is I'm holding money out of the market until this Trump thing is resolved. The market dropped 350 points on a false news story from ABC that implicated Trump in the rigmarole with Flynn. If a 350 point drop occurred from false reporting, the drop will be much bigger if something really happens to Trump. If he evades any charges, the market will rise. If he is charged, it will fall hard. It's like when he won the election. You weren't sure what was going to happen and the outcome was going to have a major effect on the market.

It's dragging out to the detriment of the nation.


I loved Trumps tweet today telling those who lost money on that false news should sue ABC for damages. That's a classic and if there was ever a "Quotable Quotes" of the twitter world, that one should be in it.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:33 pm

idhawkman wrote:
I loved Trumps tweet today telling those who lost money on that false news should sue ABC for damages. That's a classic and if there was ever a "Quotable Quotes" of the twitter world, that one should be in it.


you realize Trumps bizarre tweets attacking various corporations and industries and pumping others has caused many billions of dollars in fluctuations in the market within minutes, right?

As for the ABC reporter at least ABC suspended him for really a pretty minor factual error involving the timeline of Flynn's communications. Fox lies daily other than Shep smith and there is no accountability. Sarah Huckabee sanders will burn as hot as Charles Manson for what she has done to truth and integrity and decency in this nation.

Oh and it's reported today that Trumps personal attorney John Dowd informed him in January that Flynn had lied to the FBI. Thats super important because trump did not fire Flynn until mid Feb when news of Flynn's meetings and deception surfaced in the media.

The day after the firing Trump met privately with Comey and according to Comey pressured him to "let this go, let Flynn go". So Trump clearly knew Flynn had committed a felony when he asked to have the investigation end.
Shortly thereafter he fires Comey and blames his treatment of the Clinton Email scandal and basically says it was assistant AG Rosenstein's idea.

Rosenstein threatened to resign unless that was walked back. Within 2 days Trump had made numerous statements that he had fired Comey over Russia
Rosenstein appointed Robert Mueller 2 days later. Now here we are.

Oh yeah and hilariously enough Trump tweets out Saturday that he Fired Flynn because he lied to pence "AND TO THE FBI," a highly incriminating timeline again reinforcing he knew what Flynn had done when he pressured Comey. His attorney Dowd has taken one for the team saying he had composed the tweet for Trump. I bet he composed the ones about the FBI being in "tatters" too :P :P :D

Yeah :lol: :lol: Dowd would write something incriminating for Trump to tweet out in the first person when its been clear for over a year the legal team would prefer he say nothing :lol: :lol:

I know Id will explain this away but not too many people are going to buy that one.....
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:19 pm

He should have let Rosenstein walk.

Trump can fire anyone he wants at anytime he wants - they serve at the pleasure of the president.

Flynn lied and they destroyed him. Hillary lied multiple times to the FBI and they let her skate free. Just because you lose an election doesn't mean you get a "get out of jail free" card.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:08 pm

I we could come up with a standard measure for what we believe to be a lie and what we do not believe to be a lie and apply it equally we might come to some honest understanding of what the truth looks like. As it is I'm afraid the standard most in here apply is which side said it.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:11 pm

Truth and the trust that goes with it is something you hope to get from friends. You won't find much truth in Washington D.C. It's why this system is built the way it is. Our Founders trusted no one, not even themselves. So they created a government with so many moving parts that you didn't need truth to make it work, just a lot of people working against each other so that no one group gains too much power to inflict their "truth" on the masses. I'm just fine keeping it that way. I don't need to trust politicians, I just need to see as many of them fighting over what various people want as possible so we can come to some kind of workable compromise.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Truth and the trust that goes with it is something you hope to get from friends. You won't find much truth in Washington D.C. It's why this system is built the way it is. Our Founders trusted no one, not even themselves. So they created a government with so many moving parts that you didn't need truth to make it work, just a lot of people working against each other so that no one group gains too much power to inflict their "truth" on the masses. I'm just fine keeping it that way. I don't need to trust politicians, I just need to see as many of them fighting over what various people want as possible so we can come to some kind of workable compromise.


ASea I agree with this in a way and in a way I don't. Trust and politician for the most part go their own separate ways at some point. There are probably hundreds of decent idealistic candidates for city council but by the time they run the gauntlet to national office and get seared with the cynicism they are pure political animals looking out for #1.They sytem of co equal branches has served us well over the centuries.

But where I disagree is that truth doesn't matter. Just because politicians are basically liars much of the time there is still true and false in terms of actuality and we as voters have failed to demand it or recognize and call out lies.

Also the level of partisan rancor and win at all costs has never been nearly as bad as now. Dems want Conyers who has assaulted numerous women to "leave on his own terms". Franken is going to ride it out. Blake Farenthold from Texas paid out 85 K in our tax dollars and i haven't seen Paul ryan calling for his resignation. Then of course there's Trump going all in for the molester in Alabama and even the RNC has restored its rescind endorsement and is dumping 1 million in the final week despite another extremely credible witness, a republican businesswoman claiming to have proof of Moore's lies including a graduation card from Roy Moore.
Even in the scandal ridden Clinton years there were many instances where he crossed party lines to balance the budget and implement welfare reform etc.

Now there is less integrity (well, none) and there is no bipartisanship whatever no matter who is in power. Its not sustainable like this no matter what the founders intended. We need to demand more, research our candidates more but we are just too intellectually and politically low information and lazy. We are in deep doo doo.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:49 am

Hawktawk wrote:
ASea I agree with this in a way and in a way I don't. Trust and politician for the most part go their own separate ways at some point. There are probably hundreds of decent idealistic candidates for city council but by the time they run the gauntlet to national office and get seared with the cynicism they are pure political animals looking out for #1.They sytem of co equal branches has served us well over the centuries.


And yet when someone runs who is not a politician and corrupted by the system, the media and others filet him because he's not a politician. Unbelievable that you made this point.


But where I disagree is that truth doesn't matter. Just because politicians are basically liars much of the time there is still true and false in terms of actuality and we as voters have failed to demand it or recognize and call out lies.

Also the level of partisan rancor and win at all costs has never been nearly as bad as now. Dems want Conyers who has assaulted numerous women to "leave on his own terms". Franken is going to ride it out. Blake Farenthold from Texas paid out 85 K in our tax dollars and i haven't seen Paul ryan calling for his resignation.

I hope you know that he paid that back to the government, right? I don't see Conyers offering to repay his settlement.

Then of course there's Trump going all in for the molester in Alabama and even the RNC has restored its rescind endorsement and is dumping 1 million in the final week despite another extremely credible witness, a republican businesswoman claiming to have proof of Moore's lies including a graduation card from Roy Moore.


And yet, nothing has been submitted for forensics on whether the ink is old or new, if its his signature or not. Again, all allegations and no proof whatsoever.


Even in the scandal ridden Clinton years there were many instances where he crossed party lines to balance the budget and implement welfare reform etc.


That's because the republicans didn't demand to get their way on all the issues. They actually sat down with the other side and worked out how they could come to a meeting of the minds. You don't get that in today's democratic party. When was the last time any democrat voted opposite of what their house or senate leader told them to vote. I'm not talking about wasted votes either where it didn't matter if they went either way on a bill and they were just casting the vote to save face in their district or state.

Now there is less integrity (well, none) and there is no bipartisanship whatever no matter who is in power. Its not sustainable like this no matter what the founders intended. We need to demand more, research our candidates more but we are just too intellectually and politically low information and lazy. We are in deep doo doo.

Agree that we are in deep doo doo. The problem is that the uneducated voter only hears sound bites without context. Issues are "too deep" for them to really understand the implications. Like Pelosi saying the tax bill is "Armageddon". Really!!! The world is coming to an end. See that just hurts their cause and if they really wanted to make things better and have a chance in the 2018 elections, then why don't they offer amendments to the bill when it is still being drafted in committees? Why not come out and tell everyone what they are for? No, they just say as Chuck Shumer said, "Kids will die if they pass this tax bill." Really? Is he even serious? But that sound bite will be repeated by many "uneducated voters" over the next month. Watch and see.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:12 pm

LOL, so "uneducated voters" are only listening to the coined and incorrect "fake news"?

Dude, get a grip. Fake news is a fake made up thing by Rump and his minions to try and deflect all of his lies. Which, by the way are outnumbering any truths he says by 100 to one.

There isn't anything that spews from his face that isn't a lie or something else to prop himself up on a pedestal.

If a person still supports this jack wad then they themselves are jackwads.

So Congrats Mr. and Mrs Jackwad.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:26 pm

Fake news is a fake made up thing by Rump and his minions


Who wants to tell Brian Ross?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:25 pm

Hawktawk wrote:ASea I agree with this in a way and in a way I don't. Trust and politician for the most part go their own separate ways at some point. There are probably hundreds of decent idealistic candidates for city council but by the time they run the gauntlet to national office and get seared with the cynicism they are pure political animals looking out for #1.They sytem of co equal branches has served us well over the centuries.

But where I disagree is that truth doesn't matter. Just because politicians are basically liars much of the time there is still true and false in terms of actuality and we as voters have failed to demand it or recognize and call out lies.

Also the level of partisan rancor and win at all costs has never been nearly as bad as now. Dems want Conyers who has assaulted numerous women to "leave on his own terms". Franken is going to ride it out. Blake Farenthold from Texas paid out 85 K in our tax dollars and i haven't seen Paul ryan calling for his resignation. Then of course there's Trump going all in for the molester in Alabama and even the RNC has restored its rescind endorsement and is dumping 1 million in the final week despite another extremely credible witness, a republican businesswoman claiming to have proof of Moore's lies including a graduation card from Roy Moore.
Even in the scandal ridden Clinton years there were many instances where he crossed party lines to balance the budget and implement welfare reform etc.

Now there is less integrity (well, none) and there is no bipartisanship whatever no matter who is in power. Its not sustainable like this no matter what the founders intended. We need to demand more, research our candidates more but we are just too intellectually and politically low information and lazy. We are in deep doo doo.


In this thread alone I see multiple different "truths" including yours. There is no way to have truth with humans involved. They skew too much towards their beliefs. How do you have truth when someone like you calls Trump "evil incarnate", someone like me sees him as a narcissistic old man that's more of a blowhard than some evil tyrant, and someone like IDHawkman that sees him as a leader making "America Great Again." Which "truth" is right?

You can have recorded evidence. How that evidence is interpreted and what "truth" can be taken from it depends on the observer. That's why we have courts to see how the "truth" (observable, recordable, allowable evidence) fits with the law.

One lesson taught to me a long time ago is that to be successful in this world, you have to have a high tolerance for ambiguity. The world is not concrete. No matter how much humans want something concrete, it's extremely difficult to come by.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:13 am

Asea
I clarified my “evil incarnate” remarks. It was in reference to the act of molesting underage kids. As I discussed at length in the tsunami thread it hit the very heart of my family growing up and has affected our lives to this day. It is a horrible act.
In every instance it’s important to find out the truth no matter where it leads.

As for Trump I tend to agree he’s an old blowhard as opposed to evil like his bff Putin or hitler or something like that.He’s too stupid and mentally ill to be evil incarnate.
That is a problem when you are the potus though. The mans mind is melting daily. Watch the full remarks on Israel yesterday as the president struggles to read the statement and begins to slur badly at the end. Then google anything he said 15 years ago. It’s scary.

Russian investigation blowing up daily . Updates coming soon.
Hurry Bob!!!
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:25 am

The Russian collusion case died with the idictment and Guilty plea by Gen. Flynn.

By charging him with lying he is now a discredited witness for either side. That ends his involvement in any future charges going to anyone else. Since he plead guilty to lying during the transition phase, it ends the campaign phase of the investigation.

Additionally, because they did not charge him with a "scheme" or "strategy" crime, it ends the ability to leverage the chain going up to anyone else in the campaign or executive branch. This investigation is on its last legs and the only thing left to come out of it is the final report showing now collusion with Russian contacts.
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