The Russia thing

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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:00 pm

RiverDog wrote:It's an important investigation, but most important in American history? It's way, way too early to make such a proclamation, and even if it does bear fruit, it would have an extremely high bar to clear in order to top other investigations, like the two JFK assassination investigations, 9/11, Watergate, and so on as being the most important in American history.

You're really going overboard on this Trump thing, Hawktawk. I hope you have enough introspection to see what is abundantly clear to the rest of us.


It sort of depends. As much as I don't like to agree with Hawktawk and his crazy Trump talk, this is one of the most important investigations in history right up there with Watergate or above. Watergate was at least other Americans engaging in illegal activities aimed at winning an election. This would be a foreign power installing a president, much live we've done many times to smaller nations. Fortunately, we have enough checks and balances in places to prevent a president from doing much even when a foreign power influences an election making it not such a cost effective activity.

If Mueller finds a foreign power had an material influence on an election installing a president friendly to them, that is a very big deal. A bigger deal than almost anything you mentioned given the JFK assassination is pretty much cleared of foreign involvement. It's bigger than Watergate if proven and as big as 9/11 given that was a foreign attack.

So far most of this seems to be stemming from older issues such as with Manafort and Gates. Not sure what will come of Flynn. Not sure Donald Jr. and Kushner did anything illegal other than accept information offered by wikileaks and talk to some foreign officials with information to use against an opponent, an extremely common form of obtaining information used by the Clinton Campaign as well when they hired a foreign investigator to dig up information on Trump that they released during the election. Seems a bunch of folks have forgotten that Hilary was using foreign sources to dig up information on Trump and was having it steadily released as well such as the stupid piss dossier. I guess she gets a pass because she lost.

We'll see what comes of it. Treason is a high bar to reach. Unless they find evidence of a clear deal between Russia and Trump, they won't reach that bar. Collecting information from foreign entities is common for both parties and won't lead to much other than some wrist slapping and minor charges. But real Treason would be a very big deal.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:42 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:It sort of depends. As much as I don't like to agree with Hawktawk and his crazy Trump talk, this is one of the most important investigations in history right up there with Watergate or above. Watergate was at least other Americans engaging in illegal activities aimed at winning an election. This would be a foreign power installing a president, much live we've done many times to smaller nations. Fortunately, we have enough checks and balances in places to prevent a president from doing much even when a foreign power influences an election making it not such a cost effective activity.

If Mueller finds a foreign power had an material influence on an election installing a president friendly to them, that is a very big deal. A bigger deal than almost anything you mentioned given the JFK assassination is pretty much cleared of foreign involvement. It's bigger than Watergate if proven and as big as 9/11 given that was a foreign attack.

So far most of this seems to be stemming from older issues such as with Manafort and Gates. Not sure what will come of Flynn. Not sure Donald Jr. and Kushner did anything illegal other than accept information offered by wikileaks and talk to some foreign officials with information to use against an opponent, an extremely common form of obtaining information used by the Clinton Campaign as well when they hired a foreign investigator to dig up information on Trump that they released during the election. Seems a bunch of folks have forgotten that Hilary was using foreign sources to dig up information on Trump and was having it steadily released as well such as the stupid piss dossier. I guess she gets a pass because she lost.

We'll see what comes of it. Treason is a high bar to reach. Unless they find evidence of a clear deal between Russia and Trump, they won't reach that bar. Collecting information from foreign entities is common for both parties and won't lead to much other than some wrist slapping and minor charges. But real Treason would be a very big deal.


I'm not trying to down play it, but when someone says it's the most important 'anything' in history, it raises it to an almost impossible to achieve standard, especially considering that the investigation is still in progress. If they don't get to Trump, Robert Mueller is going to become the answer to a trivia question right next to Kenneth Starr.

Even if the Mueller investigation finds some serious stuff, they're not going to hang a treason charge on anyone. Treason is the only crime that is defined in the Constitution, and it requires that we be at war.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:07 pm

RiverDog wrote:
It's an important investigation, but most important in American history? It's way, way too early to make such a proclamation, and even if it does bear fruit, it would have an extremely high bar to clear in order to top other investigations, like the two JFK assassination investigations, 9/11, Watergate, and so on as being the most important in American history.

You're really going overboard on this Trump thing, Hawktawk. I hope you have enough introspection to see what is abundantly clear to the rest of us.


I meant a political scandal RD. It’s already eclipsed watergate imo . Watergate was a potus abusing power and attempting to manipulate law enforcement to cover up political espionage and a 3rd rate burglary. It’s clear now as news breaks daily that this administration was in cahoots with our greatest geopolitical foe to throw the election to trump. It’s sinister .

Beyond that the incredible sleaze being revealed about Manafort and Gates as well as the Flynn’s paints a picture of utter corruption top to bottom in the shadowy lawless world of the eastern bloc remnants .


Not sure why it’s overboard for me to care abou this. Maybe you don’t care enough.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:17 pm

The reason Hillary will get off on these charges is because collusion is not a crime when talking politics. Collusion is only a crime if you are price fixing or in the financial businesses. Elections don't have collusion as a crime. If they did, Bill Clinton would have been tried years ago for his Chinese medling in his elections.

The only person from the presidential candidates who colluded though was Hillary and the DNC through Fusion GPS. Again, they will not be charged though becuase it isn't illegal under our currynt set of laws.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:00 pm

Fox has one actual journalist Shep Smith who ripped uranium one a new one. It’s a smoke show.

I detest Hillary and she can rot in prison for all I care. But the entire look at her right now is just because Trump is manipulating law enforcement to make guys like you happy and distract from his conspiracy with Russia and Wikileaks.


I’ve said it elsewhere. I think Mueller probably has knowledge of high crimes right now. He is going to be very meticulous and careful and get everyone on the record and he’s going to present it to the congress.

I believe don jr and Kushner are in deep doo doo.

As Bob said Flynn’s attorneys have quit talking to Trumps. Flynn is the guy the POTUS asked Comey to stop
Investigating. He was pocketing millions from Turkey and actually got US policy changed on a specific issue.

The gun isn’t smoking the barrel is melting .

I believe a Republican Congress will refuse to impeach the president from what I’ve seen in the last year. Then who knows ? Impeachment might have to wait for the midterms.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:20 am

Hawktawk wrote:I meant a political scandal RD. It’s already eclipsed watergate imo . Watergate was a potus abusing power and attempting to manipulate law enforcement to cover up political espionage and a 3rd rate burglary. It’s clear now as news breaks daily that this administration was in cahoots with our greatest geopolitical foe to throw the election to trump. It’s sinister .

Beyond that the incredible sleaze being revealed about Manafort and Gates as well as the Flynn’s paints a picture of utter corruption top to bottom in the shadowy lawless world of the eastern bloc remnants .


Not sure why it’s overboard for me to care abou this. Maybe you don’t care enough.


Oh, come on, Hawktalk! It's already eclipsed Watergate? It hasn't even eclipsed Monicagate yet, not even a lead story. Get back to me when the investigation gets to Congress and they start holding impeachment hearings.

It's not that I don't care. I do. If Trump and/or his surrogates were directly involved in aiding foreign manipulation of our election that significantly impacted the results, then I'll be the first to advocate impeachment. But we're a long ways from there. It's going to require a combination of physical evidence and sworn testimony, a 'smoking gun' before we can get to serious impeachment charges.

And even to this day, there is considerable doubt by many that the JFK assassination was a political scandal. Although I disagree with their POV, there remains a large percentage of our population that feels there was some type of government involvement.

You're grasping for straws. Your hatred of Trump is so great that it's greatly influencing your objectivity. You want him out of office so badly that you'd believe anything that's said or written about him so long as it casts him in a negative light.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:13 am

I totally agree this is bigger than Watergate, by a good bit. I also think you are absolutely marginalizing it. But I see that as kind your default position on most things, so I don't see it as an agenda or anything.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:46 am

I totally agree this is bigger than Watergate, by a good bit.


Shouldn't they actually have to find something before we consider "it" bigger than Watergate?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:04 am

There are indictments and plea deals already . And pleas only happen when there is something to be gained in the investigation .

With what’s in the public domain there is already clear evidence of obstruction of justice and conspiracy imo. Watergate was 2 plus years in the making and at 8 months mueller is moving at a pretty good clip. just the team he has assembled make it look like a conspiracy / money laundering obstruction case being investigated by some heavy duty prosecutors with many notches in their belt.

Be patient . Like I say Mueller isn’t going to present his finding till it’s wire tight. He will not have a receptive audience in the congress and it will need to be overwhelming evidence.

He’s a lot smarter than the guys he’s investigating .

I’m stunned by the incriminating e mail chains, twitter feeds , public comments particularly from DT and JR about the case from the principle subjects of the investigation . It’s like a bunch of arrogant real estate developers thought they could do and say whatever they want. The base might love it but mueller is not impressed .

Their attorneys have to be tearing their hair out.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am

burrrton wrote:
Shouldn't they actually have to find something before we consider "it" bigger than Watergate?


Not if you're capable of putting two and two together successfully without a court declaration of four.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:32 am

c_hawkbob wrote:I totally agree this is bigger than Watergate, by a good bit. I also think you are absolutely marginalizing it. But I see that as kind your default position on most things, so I don't see it as an agenda or anything.


It's not marginalizing it when I agree that it has the potential to be bigger than Watergate. I've said that it's a serious issue, perhaps justifying impeachment. That doesn't sound to me like marginal comments.

I know that you and Hawktalk are like me, in our late teens during the Watergate scandal. Don't you remember how it simply dominated the press for months on end, the nearly round the clock coverage, the live broadcasts of Sam Irvin's committee, John Dean's "there's a cancer on the Presidency" statement, the Saturday Night Massacre, the discovery of taped conversations, Rosemary Woods and the 18 minute gap, Martha Mitchell, et al? Do you honestly see that much attention being given to the Mueller investigation? In this day and age of 24 hour news, if it were bigger than Watergate like you say it is, we'd be getting a steady diet of op eds and an endless series of connect the dots speculation. But I can turn on CNN at the top of the hour and not hear a single mention of the Mueller investigation.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:36 am

Hawktawk wrote:Be patient . Like I say Mueller isn’t going to present his finding till it’s wire tight. He will not have a receptive audience in the congress and it will need to be overwhelming evidence.


That's good advice, Hawktalk. You ought to try taking it.

And you're right, it's going to have to be some very overwhelming evidence, as it should be, for this issue to trump (pardon the pun) Watergate.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:28 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Not if you're capable of putting two and two together successfully without a court declaration of four.


This looks more like you have a single 2 to put together with an as-yet-undiscovered number trying to get to 1000.

I'm all for Mueller giving Trump a metaphorical colonoscopy looking for whatever crime they think might have been committed, but I haven't heard anything credible yet. Maybe I'm not reading enough about it (seriously- I find speculation tedious).
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:02 pm

burrrton wrote:
This looks more like you have a single 2 to put together with an as-yet-undiscovered number trying to get to 1000.

I'm all for Mueller giving Trump a metaphorical colonoscopy looking for whatever crime they think might have been committed, but I haven't heard anything credible yet. Maybe I'm not reading enough about it (seriously- I find speculation tedious).



You are correct, you are not reading enough about it. And trust me the colonoscopy is ongoing. Growing up during watergate, writing essays and even a poem about it in middle school I’ve always been intrigued by political scandal.
Many former intelligence officials have already called it bigger than watergate. There’s so much stuff, so much forensics with this financially, electronic communications , Twitter feeds and the timing of them, Don Jr forwarding links to Wikileaks on his twitter feed . It’s fascinating.

Unfortunately it’s extremely sinister to me to see pretty good evidence of coordination with Russia to win an election for POTUS.
It’s irrelevant because Paul Ryan will not empeach him.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:06 pm

Hawktawk wrote:It’s irrelevant because Paul Ryan will not empeach him.


The fact that you believe that it's irrelevant if it doesn't yield an impeachment shows that you simply want him out, that any other result short of removal from office is a waste of time and taxpayer money.

There are plenty of other consequences besides impeachment and removal from office for Trump. Even if the Republican majority doesn't impeach them, if enough crapola comes out, they are going to distance themselves from him, making it more difficult for him to enact his agenda. There's also the mid term elections coming up next year, which could change the math for Trump's 2nd half, and a potential re-election bid in 2020. All of those events could be greatly influenced by Mueller's investigation.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:03 pm

My opinion is the stakes are huge in this investigation for both parties. We'll see if it plays out as I see it, but let's look at this:

1. If they prove a foreign power manipulated elections to install a president, that will hugely undermine our election process.

2. If they find any proof Trump had some kind of agreement with Russia or direct contact with the aim of winning the election, that will likely lead to impeachment or worse.

3. The Republican Party will become the party that has had two presidents impeached. I believe it will seriously damage their credibility even among their base. It will set up the Democrats to easily win the presidency the next election. Republican presidential candidates will have a pall over them for a few terms. It would be a huge political boon for the Democrats to be able to sell the Republican Party as corrupt and unable to vet their candidates, basically untrustworthy on something they were usually rock solid on like defense and international affairs.

On the other hand if Trump is cleared, we'll likely see him get a second term. If this investigation drags on until near the next election and Mueller conveniently clears Trump while he's about to start campaigning, it would be a huge boost for the Republicans. Trump would in essence be able to discredit news agencies and political pundits that attacked him for Russia. He could call them "fake news" with a public clearing of charges. He would be empowered against his attackers and given a mandate to govern clear of Russian charges. This already insufferable president would become even more insufferable.

Democrats would lose credibility and their criticism of Trump would start to seem like lies and sour grapes. It would hurt their credibility. Fox News would have an absolute field day tearing down the Democrats for their email scandals and sex scandals while Mueller clears Trump of any wrongdoing.

The stakes are huge. Mueller has become a figure of great power that will hand a huge boon to either party depending on his findings. Both parties by allowing him to continue this investigation have given him this power. I'm waiting to see how it turns out. Will we see another president impeached for conspiring with a foreign power to take an election or will see the Democrat Party and all Trump's attackers made to look fools that fell for "fake news" and a "fake conspiracy" which Trump will use to club them over and over with to likely a second term.

Can you imagine how unglued guys like Seahawks4ever and Hawktawk will be? Oh my gosh. I'm sure they'll start calling Mueller corrupt and not believe the results of the case. And they will club on all Trump supporters like crazy if Trump is proven to be a traitor that sold out to Russia. It would be crazy times in the United States to impeach another president and our relationship with Russia would be worse than it is now. Crazy times these are.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:13 pm

RiverDog wrote:It's not marginalizing it when I agree that it has the potential to be bigger than Watergate. I've said that it's a serious issue, perhaps justifying impeachment. That doesn't sound to me like marginal comments.

I know that you and Hawktalk are like me, in our late teens during the Watergate scandal. Don't you remember how it simply dominated the press for months on end, the nearly round the clock coverage, the live broadcasts of Sam Irvin's committee, John Dean's "there's a cancer on the Presidency" statement, the Saturday Night Massacre, the discovery of taped conversations, Rosemary Woods and the 18 minute gap, Martha Mitchell, et al? Do you honestly see that much attention being given to the Mueller investigation? In this day and age of 24 hour news, if it were bigger than Watergate like you say it is, we'd be getting a steady diet of op eds and an endless series of connect the dots speculation. But I can turn on CNN at the top of the hour and not hear a single mention of the Mueller investigation.


If they get anything rock solid, we'll see he 24/7 news cycle on it. At the moment there does not appear to be sufficient evidence for impeachment.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:40 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:
1. If they prove a foreign power manipulated elections to install a president, that will hugely undermine our election process.

This is true but there is no crime in this.

2. If they find any proof Trump had some kind of agreement with Russia or direct contact with the aim of winning the election, that will likely lead to impeachment or worse.

Again, no crime will have been committed. There is no statute on the books for "collusion". It just doesn't exist.

3. The Republican Party will become the party that has had two presidents impeached. I believe it will seriously damage their credibility even among their base. It will set up the Democrats to easily win the presidency the next election. Republican presidential candidates will have a pall over them for a few terms. It would be a huge political boon for the Democrats to be able to sell the Republican Party as corrupt and unable to vet their candidates, basically untrustworthy on something they were usually rock solid on like defense and international affairs.

Since there are no crimes and no impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors, Trump will still be president and if the economy takes off, then he'll be reelected easily regardless of the biased finding of Mueller. He's already compromised his investigation in numerous ways that the house will never accept a one sided lynching from him.

On the other hand if Trump is cleared, we'll likely see him get a second term. If this investigation drags on until near the next election and Mueller conveniently clears Trump while he's about to start campaigning, it would be a huge boost for the Republicans. Trump would in essence be able to discredit news agencies and political pundits that attacked him for Russia. He could call them "fake news" with a public clearing of charges. He would be empowered against his attackers and given a mandate to govern clear of Russian charges. This already insufferable president would become even more insufferable.

Democrats would lose credibility and their criticism of Trump would start to seem like lies and sour grapes. It would hurt their credibility. Fox News would have an absolute field day tearing down the Democrats for their email scandals and sex scandals while Mueller clears Trump of any wrongdoing.


Totally agree with all of this.

The stakes are huge. Mueller has become a figure of great power that will hand a huge boon to either party depending on his findings. Both parties by allowing him to continue this investigation have given him this power. I'm waiting to see how it turns out. Will we see another president impeached for conspiring with a foreign power to take an election or will see the Democrat Party and all Trump's attackers made to look fools that fell for "fake news" and a "fake conspiracy" which Trump will use to club them over and over with to likely a second term.


There's no real downside for the republicans. As I mentioned above, Mueller should have recused himself multiple times for various reasons and any findings by his merry band of democratic donors will not result in any impeachment hearings.

Can you imagine how unglued guys like Seahawks4ever and Hawktawk will be? Oh my gosh. I'm sure they'll start calling Mueller corrupt and not believe the results of the case. And they will club on all Trump supporters like crazy if Trump is proven to be a traitor that sold out to Russia. It would be crazy times in the United States to impeach another president and our relationship with Russia would be worse than it is now. Crazy times these are.


They will go crazy but imagine how crazy they go when they find out that there's no such law as collusion for elections.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:12 am

idhawkman wrote:This is true but there is no crime in this.


Now if we're talking about getting some news stories or intelligence on a competing candidate, you are correct. That isn't a crime. That's why I think they won't find anything and Trump will be fine. Some Americans are so gullible that they think receiving intelligence from a foreign intelligence agency that helps with an election is a crime. It isn't unless they somehow prove Trump engaged them to illegally spy or wiretap like Watergate. They would have to find a witness to testify Trump ordered him to do something illegal or a paper trail that Trump compensated someone for illegal activities. Just obtaining information is not enough.

Again, no crime will have been committed. There is no statute on the books for "collusion". It just doesn't exist.


I think I understand what you're saying. A lot of Trump hating folks seem to think if they prove Trump and campaign talked with Russia, that will be enough to impeach. It won't. You have to have agreements and exchange of compensation for illegal activities that violate the laws for obtaining information. It can't be just some Russian spy or agency gave Trump information or released it on their own to help Trump get elected. That will do nothing and Trump will be cleared.

There's no real downside for the republicans. As I mentioned above, Mueller should have recused himself multiple times for various reasons and any findings by his merry band of democratic donors will not result in any impeachment hearings.


Let's gentleman's bet. If Trump is impeached it will cost the Republicans The White House for least a term, maybe longer if the Democrats can field a strong candidate. Carter was a weak candidate that Reagan took out after one term when Nixon was impeached. Though I doubt Trump will be impeached.

They will go crazy but imagine how crazy they go when they find out that there's no such law as collusion for elections.


It completely depends on the nature of that collusion. If what you said was true, Nixon would never have been impeached. He paid his staff to engage in illegal activities to win an election, which is in essence collusion. Just because the law doesn't say "collusion" doesn't mean there aren't laws in place to prevent election tampering or collusion or conspiracy to engage in illegal activities for some aim.

The reality the Trump Haters don't realize is that proving illegal election tampering is real, real hard. Mueller absolutely has to find someone that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump either compensated someone for or ordered illegal activities with the intent of winning the election. For example, they would literally have to have a witness or a paper saying, "Trump paid Russian spy such and such to illegally spy on Hilary Clinton and release illegally obtained intelligence at a key time in the election process." Or "Trump paid Russian hackers to manipulate voting machines" on his behalf. I don't think that evidence exists.

If Democratic donors are paying Mueller to conduct his investigation, they are stupid. As far as I'm concerned Robert Mueller is a Trojan Horse for the Republicans. He is going to screw the Democrats so hard they'll be walking funny for a while. Mueller is a Republican. He's going to clear Trump at a key time empowering Trump and keeping the White House for Republicans for two terms at least. Don't you see the game, IDhawkman. For all the talk from Republicans like Corker, McCain, and the like, business loves what Trump is doing. All those big political donors are so happy with a Trump-led government and all the money that will be flowing into their coffers. Even the big Democrat donors in tech are just licking their chops to get that money. This public stuff is all fake gamesmanship to seem offended and unhappy to appease their liberal customer bases. They're playing the Democratic Socialist voters like fiddles. Mueller is going to empower Trump and the Republican Majority congress like you wouldn't believe. If he really goes after Trump, I'll be surprised. Mueller's there to be put on a good show, then yank the rug out from the Democrats while smiling and taking their money (if Democratic donors are really paying him."

Let's just say like you, I don't believe any such evidence exists. The Trojan Horse known as Robert Mueller is going to make this nation Republican led for likely for another term.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:44 am

Collusion is obvious in this case, interesting in that this all started with "we have nothing with russia, no contacts with russia, we haven't met with russians".

It turns out that at least 9 members of trump's campaign had undisclosed meetings with russians. If it was no big deal why all the lying and amnesia?

Here's the deal ladies and gentlemen. Collusion may be legal to some degree but conspiracy with a foreign power with implied and apparently delivered quid pro quos in both directions in order to be elected is definitely not. Its not about collusion, the barrel melted off that gun when the Trump Jr meeting with russians in trump tower was disclosed.

Its conspiracy.

Highly illegal and its what Mueller is uncovering by the day. Mike Flynn was double dealing as a foreign agent while still receiving security briefings as NSA director. That included an additional 20 days after acting AG Sally Yates briefed Trump saying he was compromised and should not be considered for his cabinet.He was able to influence a key military decision regarding arming Kurds in Turkey while taking money from turkey during that time.

Other than Vlad Putin Flynn is the only guy in all of this scandal DT hasn't had a bad word to say about.What is he worried about with Flynn?? Other than Bannon he has no problem throwing anyone who makes him look bad under the bus. MOF his pressuring of Comey to end the probe of what appears to be very serious crimes by Flynn looks even worse in hindsight. It also compounds the severity of Trump firing Comey later and admitting to the world on Lester Holt that he was "thinking about this phony made up russian story" when he decided to just do it.
If Flynn has indeed flipped its a huge deal..

Mueller is gonna hang em. Im calm. No yelling or caps. That will come when Ryan refuses to Impeach him. When i said its irrelevant I mean temporarily. But I think there will be a definitive answer long before the midterms from the special counsel then let the voters decide .

I mean, I'm with Tom Speir, Impeach now, everyone knows that.Hes unfit for office and clearly a tool of the Kremlin. Tillerson called him a Fing moron, now it leaks that H R McMaster confided in a meeting that Trump is a "mental midget" with "the intelligence of a kindergartener".Neither man has got in front of a camera to deny it either.
Bob Corker says hes leading us to WWIII. So some sane smart people agree with the loon......
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:52 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Let's gentleman's bet. If Trump is impeached it will cost the Republicans The White House for least a term, maybe longer if the Democrats can field a strong candidate. Carter was a weak candidate that Reagan took out after one term when Nixon was impeached. Though I doubt Trump will be impeached.

Ok. "IF" he's impeached which neither of us think will happen and our bet will disolve naturally, and the republicans win the white house after Pence finishes out the term, then you owe me a frosty beverage of my choice. If Democrats win, I'll owe you one and we'll laugh over the whole cherade that led to whoever wins. Deal?


It completely depends on the nature of that collusion. If what you said was true, Nixon would never have been impeached. He paid his staff to engage in illegal activities to win an election, which is in essence collusion. Just because the law doesn't say "collusion" doesn't mean there aren't laws in place to prevent election tampering or collusion or conspiracy to engage in illegal activities for some aim.

The reality the Trump Haters don't realize is that proving illegal election tampering is real, real hard. Mueller absolutely has to find someone that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump either compensated someone for or ordered illegal activities with the intent of winning the election. For example, they would literally have to have a witness or a paper saying, "Trump paid Russian spy such and such to illegally spy on Hilary Clinton and release illegally obtained intelligence at a key time in the election process." Or "Trump paid Russian hackers to manipulate voting machines" on his behalf. I don't think that evidence exists.


Nixon wasn't impeached because of the breakin - he had no knowledge of it. What he was impeached for was the cover up once he was told and informed of what happened. Its always the cover up that kills political figures.

If the bar for illegality is what you point out above, then Hillary is guilty as charged for hiring Fusions GPS through a law firm and paying a UK spy that bought intelligence from the Russian FSB (Foreign Surveillance Bureau).

That said, they will call it OpO research and get away with it. For election tampering to be proved you have to show where a vote was actually changed after it was cast by the voter. That didn't happen at all. Again there is no collusion laws on the books so there's nothing there either. IF there was something illegal done, then yes it will bear out bad for Trump but what is illegal in all of this? The only thing illegal was Hillary using the law firm to pay for other things than legal advice. That falls under campaign laws and who is going to really go down for that?

If Democratic donors are paying Mueller to conduct his investigation, they are stupid. As far as I'm concerned Robert Mueller is a Trojan Horse for the Republicans. He is going to screw the Democrats so hard they'll be walking funny for a while. Mueller is a Republican. He's going to clear Trump at a key time empowering Trump and keeping the White House for Republicans for two terms at least. Don't you see the game, IDhawkman. For all the talk from Republicans like Corker, McCain, and the like, business loves what Trump is doing. All those big political donors are so happy with a Trump-led government and all the money that will be flowing into their coffers. Even the big Democrat donors in tech are just licking their chops to get that money. This public stuff is all fake gamesmanship to seem offended and unhappy to appease their liberal customer bases. They're playing the Democratic Socialist voters like fiddles. Mueller is going to empower Trump and the Republican Majority congress like you wouldn't believe. If he really goes after Trump, I'll be surprised. Mueller's there to be put on a good show, then yank the rug out from the Democrats while smiling and taking their money (if Democratic donors are really paying him."

Let's just say like you, I don't believe any such evidence exists. The Trojan Horse known as Robert Mueller is going to make this nation Republican led for likely for another term.


Donors are not paying Mueller, most of the attorneys he's brought on to his staff are heavy democratic donors. The fox is in the hen house in other words. This is what makes me thing you are probably correct in that he is going to clear Trump and no one will be able to refute it because all the people he used are democratic operatives. If they clear him, there's nothing there. If they indict him, then it is biased. Its a no lose situation for the republicans.

So now the left can never trumpers can start to pull their hair out knowing this.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:01 am

Hawktawk wrote:Collusion is obvious in this case, interesting in that this all started with "we have nothing with russia, no contacts with russia, we haven't met with russians".

It turns out that at least 9 members of trump's campaign had undisclosed meetings with russians. If it was no big deal why all the lying and amnesia?

Here's the deal ladies and gentlemen. Collusion may be legal to some degree but conspiracy with a foreign power with implied and apparently delivered quid pro quos in both directions in order to be elected is definitely not. Its not about collusion, the barrel melted off that gun when the Trump Jr meeting with russians in trump tower was disclosed.

Its conspiracy.


Quid pro quo is too hard to prove. What did the Russians get? Us giving natural gas to the Poles? Driving down the price of fuel in the world? They are pretty upset with Trump as it is. So what did they get in return? Nothing. Again, nothing here to see, move along.


Highly illegal and its what Mueller is uncovering by the day. Mike Flynn was double dealing as a foreign agent while still receiving security briefings as NSA director. That included an additional 20 days after acting AG Sally Yates briefed Trump saying he was compromised and should not be considered for his cabinet.He was able to influence a key military decision regarding arming Kurds in Turkey while taking money from turkey during that time.

Are you aware that the Turks and Kurds are in a battle among themselves? Why would Flynn, if working for the Turks, arm their enemy if he was compromised and working on their behalf in that role?

Other than Vlad Putin Flynn is the only guy in all of this scandal DT hasn't had a bad word to say about.What is he worried about with Flynn?? Other than Bannon he has no problem throwing anyone who makes him look bad under the bus. MOF his pressuring of Comey to end the probe of what appears to be very serious crimes by Flynn looks even worse in hindsight. It also compounds the severity of Trump firing Comey later and admitting to the world on Lester Holt that he was "thinking about this phony made up russian story" when he decided to just do it.
If Flynn has indeed flipped its a huge deal..

Sigh.... Trump has the right to fire anyone he wants to in his administration including Mueller. Its his right and not obstruction at all.

Mueller is gonna hang em. Im calm. No yelling or caps. That will come when Ryan refuses to Impeach him. When i said its irrelevant I mean temporarily. But I think there will be a definitive answer long before the midterms from the special counsel then let the voters decide .

I mean, I'm with Tom Speir, Impeach now, everyone knows that.Hes unfit for office and clearly a tool of the Kremlin. Tillerson called him a Fing moron, now it leaks that H R McMaster confided in a meeting that Trump is a "mental midget" with "the intelligence of a kindergartener".Neither man has got in front of a camera to deny it either.
Bob Corker says hes leading us to WWIII. So some sane smart people agree with the loon......

Mueller won't hang Trump he will end up clearing him. He might hang some trivial indictments on the low hanging fruit of liable for that popovich guy and failing to file foreign lobbying papers on Flynn and Manafort but that's about as far as this will go.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:46 pm

Good luck with all that ID. Mueller will not clear him . Just looking at what’s known in the public domain it’s clear mueller is going directly at trump. If I’m wrong I’ll be in for my crow like always .

Just a question for you ID. Your obviously the quintessential 33% trump diehard. How did you get from being a patriot to being ok with trump being what Colbert said he was for Putin?
How did we get from the red menace to you supporting a guy who has as big a speech impediment criticizing Putin as Obama had with Isis.

He’s in their pocket . He has still not implemented sanctions that were passed in a bipartisan fashion to punish Russia. He said on his Asian trip that Putin told him he didn’t meddle when everyone knows he did. He’s a complete rube . In a battle of wits with the KGB agent he is unarmed.

Last week Putin called trump and spoke with him for over an hr and a half . Afterwards trump announced he is ending support for the pro us forces fighting in Syria. The call was made by Putin and was first reported on state run media.

You are truly an ostrich not to see we are getting played by Russia.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:03 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Good luck with all that ID. Mueller will not clear him . Just looking at what’s known in the public domain it’s clear mueller is going directly at trump. If I’m wrong I’ll be in for my crow like always .

Just a question for you ID. Your obviously the quintessential 33% trump diehard. How did you get from being a patriot to being ok with trump being what Colbert said he was for Putin?
How did we get from the red menace to you supporting a guy who has as big a speech impediment criticizing Putin as Obama had with Isis.


What makes you think I'm not a patriot? Because I see things different than you, I'm not a patriot? What was it that turned you into the kind of person who says, "either you agree with me or you are evil?" That's like asking, "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Its a false narrative.

Now, about Russia, some would say because of the time I spent there it might influence my subjectivity but maybe it is more that I understand them better than most. Second thought is who cares what Colbert thinks or says? What a (I don't want to attack you personally but...) dumb argument is that?

Let me ask you a question. If you had two ball players that could equally play 2nd base but only one of them was good in the outfield how would you play them? Would you play the one that was good in the outfield and the other at 2nd base? Would you rotate them from the bench as to who would start every other game and play a sub par player in the outfield, then make the first one to commit an error to determine who sat the bench for the rest of the year? Or would you sit them both on the bench and play someone else because they both weren't good enough to play both spots?

The bottom line is there are more factors than them meddling in our election. Quite frankly, who cares? They've been doing it for 100 years or more. We do it to them, too. Did you know that? Did you know we catch their spies all the time and they catch ours. We throw them out when we find them but we don't trash the whole relationship. We work together where we can with all nations not just the Russians and we don't where we have differences. Unfortunately, our political environment internally has become so vile that neither side can work with the other side. Its not about policy or ideas, its only about what is bad for the other side as a whole and what's good for our side. This HAS TO STOP!!! We can not let this spill over into our international relationships. Just as unfortunate, the democrats are now finally wanting to hold the Russians accountable but I think it is not for what they did but its because they failed to "reset" the relationship with Russia and they are fearful that Trump will be able to work with them in certain areas. e.g. ISIS, middle east turmoil, etc.

He’s in their pocket .


You are talking about Obama and Hillary right?

He has still not implemented sanctions that were passed in a bipartisan fashion to punish Russia. He said on his Asian trip that Putin told him he didn’t meddle when everyone knows he did. He’s a complete rube . In a battle of wits with the KGB agent he is unarmed.

Not sure where you are going with that or why you think it. He said that Putin told him that he didn't do it and that he believes that Putin believes that but we have proof otherwise. Nevertheless, we need to work together in Syria and other issues so what's he a rube on? Are you ready to throw the baby out with the bath water because the bath water is dirty?

Last week Putin called trump and spoke with him for over an hr and a half . Afterwards trump announced he is ending support for the pro us forces fighting in Syria. The call was made by Putin and was first reported on state run media.

You are truly an ostrich not to see we are getting played by Russia.


yep, that's all that was discussed in the hour and half conversation. If you believe that, you believe that it took 40 minutes to discuss golf and kids between Bill Clinton and Rice. Who's the real ostrich?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:45 pm

Bath water has been dirty for ages. I'm still not sure what people think Trump did worse than past administrations. I just don't get all the Russia talk. Unless they prove Trump is some kind of Manchurian (Kremlin) Candidate, I still don't get it. We "collude" with other nations all the time. We're interfering with other nations all the time. Everyone seems ok with it when it's their candidate and not ok with it when it's the other team's candidates.

I have to wonder if Americans have become so polarized or clueless they don't get that their nation has been globalized. They need to get used to other nations involving themselves in our politics. If they didn't want this, they need to be voting for people that will change it. If they're supporting the two major parties, that will never happen.

This world is moving towards globalization. America is trying to become the nation that rules the globe from afar. It's been doing this for ages. I'm still very torn as to whether this is a thing I support or not. On the one hand, if we don't do it someone else will like Russia or China. China is making moves to further dominance in Asia. Then again part of me wants to be like Switzerland: withdrawn, wealthy, and self-governed. Let the rest of the world fight and kill each other while we stay rich and happy on our giant island making sure that garbage doesn't make it here. Too bad It never seems to work out that way. We're too invested in the world to go back to isolation and world engagement through trade. Much of the world is too damn backwards and focused on stupid things like religion or nationalism to understand the reality of living on a space ball with a limited environment that must be managed and cared for.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:35 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:The Republican Party will become the party that has had two presidents impeached.


The Republicans have not had ANY presidents impeached. There have only been two Presidents in our history that have been impeached, and both were Democrats: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton (although it's difficult to call Johnson a Democrat. He was Lincoln's VP, who was a Republican).

You are undoubtedly referring to Richard Nixon, who was never impeached. A House sub committee had adapted several articles of impeachment and was in the process of forwarding them to the full house for a vote when Nixon resigned. Had he not resigned, he almost certainly would have been impeached and more than likely removed from office.

You can win a trivia bet with about 95% of Americans that are under the false impression that impeachment means removal from office. Impeachment simply means brought to trial.
Last edited by RiverDog on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:06 am

An interesting tidbit from the senate committee interview of long time Trump bodyguard Keith Schiller .
Asked about events during the miss universe pageant in Moscow in 2013 he admitted that a Russian emissary had offered Donal Trump 5 escorts to be sent to his room.
Schiller said he told them”we don’t do that”. He said he spoke to DT and they had a laugh.

He testified that he dropped Trump off at his suite and stayed outside the door for a little while .Under oath he had to admit he was not there later in the evening and cannot say whether Trump had visitors .

I understand this neither proves nor disproves the most shocking allegations about depraved aquatic games in the Obama’s suite detailed in the Steele dossier but it shows it wasn’t completely manufactured out of thin air at a minimum.

I have a couple of observations . # 1 why did Russia make the offer knowing Trump
Is married. Did their research lead them to believe it’s something he does or would appreciate?

The second wierd thing is that Schiller made the statement he spent some time outside the door but he would not completely cover for Trump under oath either.

Just another piece of the puzzle .
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:20 am

Hawktawk wrote:An interesting tidbit from the senate committee interview of long time Trump bodyguard Keith Schiller .
Asked about events during the miss universe pageant in Moscow in 2013 he admitted that a Russian emissary had offered Donal Trump 5 escorts to be sent to his room.
Schiller said he told them”we don’t do that”. He said he spoke to DT and they had a laugh.

He testified that he dropped Trump off at his suite and stayed outside the door for a little while .Under oath he had to admit he was not there later in the evening and cannot say whether Trump had visitors .

I understand this neither proves nor disproves the most shocking allegations about depraved aquatic games in the Obama’s suite detailed in the Steele dossier but it shows it wasn’t completely manufactured out of thin air at a minimum.

I have a couple of observations . # 1 why did Russia make the offer knowing Trump
Is married. Did their research lead them to believe it’s something he does or would appreciate?

The second wierd thing is that Schiller made the statement he spent some time outside the door but he would not completely cover for Trump under oath either.

Just another piece of the puzzle .


There's no research it is standard protocol. When I showed up in the former USSR, the very first night at 2am my phone rang and rang and rang until I got up to answer it. There was a woman on the other end in broken english who stated, "Russian girls are nice, yes?" I told her it was 2am and hung up on her.

4 weeks later two blond bombshell twins showed up at my hotel door wearing a tube top as a skirt and a slinky shirt and bright red lipstick. They asked if I wanted some company. I kindly said no thank you and turned them away.

3 weeks later, again I get a late 10pm-ish phone call with someone on the other end stating that they loved me and wanted to be with me. "IT WAS A GUY!" Not that there's anything wrong with that... I guess they thought since I didn't take them up on the girls I must prefer guys. I just hung up!

Bottom line is that is a classic Russian tactic to try and get leverage on anyone they think they need influence over.

...and you really need to stop quoting that discredited dossier and unnamed sources and treating them like facts. Everytime you quote those, it hurts your objectivity and credibility.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:28 am

The dossier is mostly verified and was the first indication of the links with Russia your hero denied.more is verified all the time.


It’s truly hopeless man. You are in a trance along with 33% of the voters .
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:33 am

Hawktawk wrote:An interesting tidbit from the senate committee interview of long time Trump bodyguard Keith Schiller .
Asked about events during the miss universe pageant in Moscow in 2013 he admitted that a Russian emissary had offered Donal Trump 5 escorts to be sent to his room.
Schiller said he told them”we don’t do that”. He said he spoke to DT and they had a laugh.

He testified that he dropped Trump off at his suite and stayed outside the door for a little while .Under oath he had to admit he was not there later in the evening and cannot say whether Trump had visitors .

I understand this neither proves nor disproves the most shocking allegations about depraved aquatic games in the Obama’s suite detailed in the Steele dossier but it shows it wasn’t completely manufactured out of thin air at a minimum.

I have a couple of observations . # 1 why did Russia make the offer knowing Trump
Is married. Did their research lead them to believe it’s something he does or would appreciate?

The second wierd thing is that Schiller made the statement he spent some time outside the door but he would not completely cover for Trump under oath either.

Just another piece of the puzzle .


So what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:01 am

RiverDog wrote:
So what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?


This is the most "salacious" part of the Steele dossier that in part led to the FBI and now Mueller investigation, that Putin had "kompromat" on Trump because he had been filmed with hookers defiling the bed in the suite occupied by the Obamas on a previous visit to Moscow .

Steele reported that this was alleged to have occurred during the miss universe pageant in 2013. Schillers testimony advances the story somewhat or at a minimum it doesn't discount it.

Frankly I have read accounts from people who say Trump has reportedly been surreptitiously filmed with prostitutes in both moscow and also ST Petersburg.
I can't verify that but I guess for me it fits a pattern of actions a completely out of control whack job would be stupid enough to do

Trump was bothered by it enough that he denied it saying "i'm a germaphobe". He got in an argument with James Comey over the phone according to the G mans testimony where he yelled "I don't have any hookers in Russia".

Putin denies having blackmail over Trump. he qualified it by saying "we have the finest escorts in the world"
Of course both he and Trump denied he interfered in our elections too.

Heres all I have to say to the doubters. They said there were no contacts with Russia. There were dozens at a minimum. WHY LIE? why?Guilty people lie to conceal their crimes, that's why.

This much I know. Donald J Trump has had no problem insulting every foreign leader including virtually all our allies but cut and paste me his critical comments vs praise for Putin please. He acts for all the world like a guy who is on tape doing aquatics with hookers in Moscow , a guy who has been groomed for decades to do Russia's international bidding and absolutely is over a barrell with regards to Russia.

Dispute everything else but try to dispute Trumps BFF attitude toward Putin...And good luck with that.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:11 pm

Hawk or anyone else,

What illegal activity do you think Trump did? I'm reading. So far I'm seeing old money laundering charges from some of his associates. Even the most serious Flynn investigations involve older associations with Russia.

What specific crime do you think Mueller will find Trump did? We know that Russia releasing information that would help Trump isn't going to convict him. We know that information sold to Trump or his associates isn't a crime. They have to prove actual exchange of compensation for illegal activities. If all they find is Russia preferred Donald Trump as president and conducted operations on their own to support him without any exchange of compensation, then no charges will fall on Trump. If Russia released information to Wikileaks that Wikileaks released to the press without compensation from Trump, then once again no crime has been committed and Trump will be fine.

What specific crime do you expect Mueller to find and what evidence do you have at the moment to support that crime? If getting information, accepting donations from a foreign power, or the like were a crime, nearly all of our presidents would have been impeached, especially Bill Clinton.

Can you in any way point to a specific crime you think Trump might be brought to trial for?

I'm sure you all know nations like Saudi Arabia (number one terrorist supporter and producer in the world), Russia, and China all support various American candidates with money and whatever other support they get away with. This is not a crime in America and is in fact expected. It happens all the time. It's just not as publicized and pursued as it is under Trump. That's why I think is mostly a Democratic witch hunt with the intent to take the White House the next election. If the Democrats can make America think Trump did something illegal with Russia, they can win votes that way. Though the Republicans will likely do it right back with the next Democratic president as they love to play tit for tat. You make our guy look bad,we'll make your guy look worse.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:03 pm

Hawktawk wrote:The dossier is mostly verified and was the first indication of the links with Russia your hero denied.more is verified all the time.


It’s truly hopeless man. You are in a trance along with 33% of the voters .


Actually, the FBI has done nothing to verify this and they stated that in open hearings. The whole thing is a farce.

oh wait, they did verify that Putin is the President of Russia.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:27 am

Flynn just plead guilty to lying to the FBI about the Russia investigation, so now you can no longer say nothing has been verified.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:53 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Flynn just plead guilty to lying to the FBI about the Russia investigation, so now you can no longer say nothing has been verified.



Yes indeed CHawk Bob. This is huge as he has been given an extremely favorable deal relative to his reported legal exposure. It is reported that Flynn lied about calls he had made discussing quid pro quos with Russia’s ambassador at the bidding of “a very senior official from Mara lago”.
He is now confirmed to have turned States evidence.
There’s a saying “the better the deal the bigger the fish”


Get yo popcorn ready.
Yeah Bob Mueller !!!!!!!
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:18 pm

You can win a trivia bet with about 95% of Americans that are under the false impression that impeachment means removal from office. Impeachment simply means brought to trial.


Yup. The House impeaches, the Senate votes to remove from office.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:35 pm

RiverDog wrote:The Republicans have not had ANY presidents impeached. There have only been two Presidents in our history that have been impeached, and both were Democrats: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton (although it's difficult to call Johnson a Democrat. He was Lincoln's VP, who was a Republican).

You are undoubtedly referring to Richard Nixon, who was never impeached. A House sub committee had adapted several articles of impeachment and was in the process of forwarding them to the full house for a vote when Nixon resigned. Had he not resigned, he almost certainly would have been impeached and more than likely removed from office.

You can win a trivia bet with about 95% of Americans that are under the false impression that impeachment means removal from office. Impeachment simply means brought to trial.


Good point. And information I had forgotten. Trump may be brought to trial, but whether he will be removed from office I'm not sure of. So far they are getting people for old charges involving money laundering and lying to the FBI. I'm not sure Trump has been subpoenaed or under oath for investigations. He may soon be.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:45 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Flynn just plead guilty to lying to the FBI about the Russia investigation, so now you can no longer say nothing has been verified.


We'll see if Flynn is giving up Trump or if he is giving up people involved in his other operations against Turkey and earlier for Russia. This should be interesting. Flynn has so much dirt on him from other actions, hard to know who he could have given up. He sounds like an Olly North. More proof our government is filled with dirty people doing dirty things with our tax money because they "believe it is right" and aren't practicing "Freshman class poli-sci." I'm sick of our government using our tax money for too many dirty military/intelligence operations on behalf of nations I don't want much to do with. I'm so sick of finding out after the fact because "patriotic" generals like Flynn pretend they are doing this on his nation's behalf, when he's just another dirty player in a game of money and greed working for powerful people in the world. If some people want to pretend that doing this garbage is some "advance course in political science", I have no time for them. I want more transparency and a stand-down of our military from interacting on behalf of scumbags, while pretending they are acting in the best interests of Americans.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:21 pm

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... estigation

[A]s I explained in connection with George Papadopoulos (who also pled guilty in Mueller’s investigation for lying to the FBI), when a prosecutor has a cooperator who was an accomplice in a major criminal scheme, the cooperator is made to plead guilty to the scheme. This is critical because it proves the existence of the scheme.

In his guilty-plea allocution (the part of a plea proceeding in which the defendant admits what he did that makes him guilty), the accomplice explains the scheme and the actions taken by himself and his co-conspirators to carry it out. This goes a long way toward proving the case against all of the subjects of the investigation.

That is not happening in Flynn’s situation. Instead, like Papadopoulos, he is being permitted to plead guilty to a mere process crime. A breaking report from ABC News indicates that Flynn is prepared to testify that Trump directed him to make contact with the Russians — initially to lay the groundwork for mutual efforts against ISIS in Syria. That, however, is exactly the sort of thing the incoming national-security adviser is supposed to do in a transition phase between administrations. If it were part of the basis for a “collusion” case arising out of Russia’s election meddling, then Flynn would not be pleading guilty to a process crime — he’d be pleading guilty to an espionage conspiracy.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:52 pm

Not necessarily. In much the same way as George Papadopoulos Flynn was given an extremely favorable plea.

He has got to be expected and probably has already delivered some big time leads in the investigation or it would not have happened.

Over the last couple of days reports surfaced that Kushner was called in by mueller a month ago to testify what he knew about Flynn.What did he say under penalty of perjury and does this line up with what Flynn has testified to?
This thing is about to blow wide open. Pretty hard to call it a nothingburger now......
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