The Russia thing

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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:19 am

c_hawkbob wrote:And that there is how an investigation into one thing can (and often does) effect things not necessarily under the purview of that initial investigation.

Wait till it gets to the bookkeeping ...


The lawyer's bookkeeping or Trump's? if they could go after Trump's books, not sure why they haven't yet. Also, I'm fairly certain Trump's books are done by a highly paid accounting firm that may not have been willing to doctor books. But as with all things with this investigation, we shall see. So far it seems they have nearly nothing. If they're raiding Trump's lawyer for a payment to a pornstar, that's really not enough.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:19 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I"m just watching and waiting. Mueller needs to show something solid soon or this is going to get tiresome. If this thing hits the two year mark with no solid evidence against Trump, I don't see much coming of it. Then again I don't see much coming of it unless the Democrats win The Congress or Mueller finds some evidence of the level of Watergate. If the best they find is some pornstar was paid off not to talk during the election, they got nothing.


As the NO KNOCK raid on Cohen's office, home and hotel shows there's quite a bit more than nothing and only the most pro trump rube would fail to see it. No knock is only allowed when there is substantial evidence of criminal activity and a risk of destruction of evidence as in the case of Manafort.Its about Daniels but they have all the information on every client of Cohan that he hasn't deleted or shredded already, tax returns , business dealings, a treasure trove of certain malfeasance but it was the porn star who blew the lid off the investigation. Don't forget the threat to Daniels in vegas which could involve interstate criminal activity etc. Its a huge deal..

Such a warrant is rarely issued by any court to take down any lawyer due to attorney client privilege and certainly not when its the Potus lawyer. It had to be approved by assistant AG Rod Rosenstein,Republican appointed by trump, FBI director Christopher Wray, appointed by Trump to replace Comey, and most importantly by the state Prosecutor appointed by trump to replace fired Preet Baraha in New york state who incidentally contributed $5400 to Trumps campaign and is a former law partner of Trump apologist Giuliani who had recommended him for the post.

As my new favorite host Joe Scarborough said minutes ago, none of the above mentioned people ever were registered democrats, contributed hundreds of thousands to people like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the democratic party etc. That was Donald J Trump doing all that....

Its simply about a bunch of law enforcement officials who are willing to put aside party as any decent american should to uphold the law and take down the seamiest sleazebag criminal enterprise ever seen in the history of the US presidency. Go get him, get em all, lock em up. HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But the shills will buy this nothing there, vast democratic deep state conspiracy stuff anyway because they are willingly stupid.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:45 am

Hawktawk wrote:As the NO KNOCK raid on Cohen's office, home and hotel shows there's quite a bit more than nothing and only the most pro trump rube would fail to see it. No knock is only allowed when there is substantial evidence of criminal activity and a risk of destruction of evidence as in the case of Manafort.Its about Daniels but they have all the information on every client of Cohan that he hasn't deleted or shredded already, tax returns , business dealings, a treasure trove of certain malfeasance but it was the porn star who blew the lid off the investigation. Don't forget the threat to Daniels in vegas which could involve interstate criminal activity etc. Its a huge deal..

Such a warrant is rarely issued by any court to take down any lawyer due to attorney client privilege and certainly not when its the Potus lawyer. It had to be approved by assistant AG Rod Rosenstein,Republican appointed by trump, FBI director Christopher Wray, appointed by Trump to replace Comey, and most importantly by the state Prosecutor appointed by trump to replace fired Preet Baraha in New york state who incidentally contributed $5400 to Trumps campaign and is a former law partner of Trump apologist Giuliani who had recommended him for the post.

As my new favorite host Joe Scarborough said minutes ago, none of the above mentioned people ever were registered democrats, contributed hundreds of thousands to people like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the democratic party etc. That was Donald J Trump doing all that....

Its simply about a bunch of law enforcement officials who are willing to put aside party as any decent american should to uphold the law and take down the seamiest sleazebag criminal enterprise ever seen in the history of the US presidency. Go get him, get em all, lock em up. HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But the shills will buy this nothing there, vast democratic deep state conspiracy stuff anyway because they are willingly stupid.


They aren't after tax returns. They can get anyone's tax returns by simply calling the IRS. And they're not going to find what they're looking for in any records of business dealings. They already know how much money was involved, who it was paid to, and when the payment was made. What they need to prove is intent, that Cohen made this payment with the intent of influencing, or in this case not allowing it to influence, the election, and that's not something that's likely to have been committed to writing.

What they will be looking for is emails and/or text messages. It's a long shot, but they apparently felt that there's a good possibility of finding something or else they wouldn't have taken this extraordinary step of raiding a practicing attorney's home and office.

This is a significant twist, but I wouldn't start doing your touchdown dance just yet. It's going to be extremely difficult to prove a motive and even more difficult to tie Trump to it. But as far as Trump not being able to make a credible claim credible as he's the victim of a which hunt, the only thing I will say in Trump's defense is that government workers in general tend to vote Democratic at a much higher rate than the rest of the nation. The guys you mention are, indeed, Trump appointees but they're acting on information and opinions offered to them by their subordinates, who are career bureaucrats, and they have Trump's rants about the FBI and the intelligence community in general as a motivating factor.

But I'm more concerned about the evidence, if any, they discover, more than I am who discovers it.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:12 am

If "Grab em by the Pussy" was known and he still got elected, then this is really nothing. The only issue is the legality, which paying hush money should be.

:lol: https://www.yahoo.com/news/stephen-colb ... 07101.html
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:41 am

Largent80 wrote:If "Grab em by the Pussy" was known and he still got elected, then this is really nothing. The only issue is the legality, which paying hush money should be.

:lol: https://www.yahoo.com/news/stephen-colb ... 07101.html


The "Grab em by the pussy" remark had virtually no effect on the outcome of the election. Anyone that was insulted by that remark to the point where it might influence their vote wasn't going to vote for him anyway.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:07 am

I don't agree. many in my family (parents and cousins, Aunts and Uncles and such) that are staunch republicans chose not to vote at all on account of that remark.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:08 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't agree. many in my family (parents and cousins, Aunts and Uncles and such) that are staunch republicans chose not to vote at all on account of that remark.


Well, he didn't say "Republicans", he referred to people who weren't going to vote for him anyway- Are you saying you have lots of family that were on the "Trump Train", with aaaaaaaaalllll the vulgar sh*t he'd done and said before then, that only then decided that corny locker-room talk was a bridge too far?

Honest question. I'm with RD in that I don't think anyone who decided that was tantamount to admitted rape was going to even consider voting for him, but maybe that's just my limited experience talking politics with people around me.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:53 pm

burrrton wrote:Well, he didn't say "Republicans", he referred to people who weren't going to vote for him anyway- Are you saying you have lots of family that were on the "Trump Train", with aaaaaaaaalllll the vulgar sh*t he'd done and said before then, that only then decided that corny locker-room talk was a bridge too far?

Honest question. I'm with RD in that I don't think anyone who decided that was tantamount to admitted rape was going to even consider voting for him, but maybe that's just my limited experience talking politics with people around me.


He didn't just refer to people that weren't going to vote for him anyway, he also said that the remark had no effect on the election. I'm saying it did, even if only to inhibit voter turn out.

And yes, I come from a an extremely conservative religious family who tend not to pay much attention to actual news, preferring to put all their stock into what they hear in church. They had until that quote, in his own voice, chosen to believe that all the other "vulgar sh*t he'd done and said before then" were lies spread by godless liberals. Such people do exist. My dad still refuses to believe he ever actually said it ...
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:02 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't agree. many in my family (parents and cousins, Aunts and Uncles and such) that are staunch republicans chose not to vote at all on account of that remark.


Then your family was in a distinct minority of Republican voters:

Poll: Vast majority of Republican voters don’t care much about the leaked Trump (grab 'em) tape..

Before the tape leaked, Morning Consult’s polling had Hillary Clinton up 41 percent to 39 percent over Trump. In the first poll conducted after the tape came out Friday afternoon, conducted by Morning Consult for Politico, Clinton’s lead’s expanded only slightly: It’s now 42 to 38.

In fact, most Republican voters don’t appear to be terribly concerned about the tape at all.


https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13217158/ ... sault-tape

The Washington Post released the video in early October of 2016, less than a month away from the election. If anything, Trump narrowed Clinton's lead in the subsequent weeks leading up to the election. If there was an effect, it was very short lived.
Last edited by RiverDog on Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby burrrton » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:18 pm

He didn't just refer to people that weren't going to vote for him anyway, he also said that the remark had no effect on the election.


Ah. Fair enough.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:00 pm

Here's a graphic that demonstrates my point about the "grab 'em" remark having zero effect in the election:

https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interact ... l-tracker/

On Oct. 1st, just before the release of the tape, the above historical averages of a composite of nation wide polls shows Clinton at 43.4%, Trump 41.1%, or a margin of 2.3%. The popular vote in the final election results 5 weeks later was Clinton 48.2%, Trump 46.1%, or a margin of 2.1%.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:17 pm

But your "zero effect" assertion assumes that remark as the only variable in that time frame.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:39 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:But your "zero effect" assertion assumes that remark as the only variable in that time frame.


The point is that there wasn't ANY variable that caused the polling numbers to bounce one way or another. It's a pretty flat curve. Trump's numbers in particular are unmoved during that period of time all the way back to Labor Day, hovering around 39-40%, all the way up to the last week of October when he started to push to about 43% just prior to the election, the high water mark of the entire campaign.

So my statement still stands: The "Grab 'em" incident had zero impact on the outcome of the election.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:50 pm

Umm I do believe that I said that the grab em by the pussy remark was known yet he still got elected. There were even some very pathetic females even standing up for him after he said it.

Another reason he got there was from the huge lack of voters due to the choices available.
None of the people who didn't vote have a single thing to b**** about.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:00 pm

Largent80 wrote:Umm I do believe that I said that the grab em by the pussy remark was known yet he still got elected. There were even some very pathetic females even standing up for him after he said it.

Another reason he got there was from the huge lack of voters due to the choices available.
None of the people who didn't vote have a single thing to b**** about.


And I'm agreeing with you. The people that were most offended by Trump's "Grab 'em"remarks had already made up their minds not to vote for him and hearing about the remarks did not motivate those that ended up sitting out to get off their duffs and vote. Plus you're right about your 2nd paragraph. The 2016 election marked a 20 year low in votr turnout.

And FYI, like my buddy Hawktalk, I voted for Johnson, so I maintain my right to b****.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:07 pm

Hawktawk wrote:As the NO KNOCK raid on Cohen's office, home and hotel shows there's quite a bit more than nothing and only the most pro trump rube would fail to see it. No knock is only allowed when there is substantial evidence of criminal activity and a risk of destruction of evidence as in the case of Manafort.Its about Daniels but they have all the information on every client of Cohan that he hasn't deleted or shredded already, tax returns , business dealings, a treasure trove of certain malfeasance but it was the porn star who blew the lid off the investigation. Don't forget the threat to Daniels in vegas which could involve interstate criminal activity etc. Its a huge deal..

Such a warrant is rarely issued by any court to take down any lawyer due to attorney client privilege and certainly not when its the Potus lawyer. It had to be approved by assistant AG Rod Rosenstein,Republican appointed by trump, FBI director Christopher Wray, appointed by Trump to replace Comey, and most importantly by the state Prosecutor appointed by trump to replace fired Preet Baraha in New york state who incidentally contributed $5400 to Trumps campaign and is a former law partner of Trump apologist Giuliani who had recommended him for the post.

As my new favorite host Joe Scarborough said minutes ago, none of the above mentioned people ever were registered democrats, contributed hundreds of thousands to people like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the democratic party etc. That was Donald J Trump doing all that....

Its simply about a bunch of law enforcement officials who are willing to put aside party as any decent american should to uphold the law and take down the seamiest sleazebag criminal enterprise ever seen in the history of the US presidency. Go get him, get em all, lock em up. HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But the shills will buy this nothing there, vast democratic deep state conspiracy stuff anyway because they are willingly stupid.


We will see. But this has nothing to do with Russia.

You're exaggerating again. If all they have is a guy paying off a couple of women not to talk, expect to see a bunch of politicians outed for just this behavior because I guarantee Trump is not the only one in Washington doing this.

This is interesting,but pretty far down the chain for what they were looking for. It would be amusing to see a president taken down for sleeping with pornstars and playmates. Not sure what effect such findings would have on your reputation. I wonder if it might increase his male votes. I could see some college males laughing, "Vote for the president that bangs pornstars and playmates."
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:58 pm

On a side note, it would be pretty hilarious if Trump was taken down because he was grabbing too many p's. A great example of poetic justice. It's times like these I wonder if our existence is not wholly in the mind of a writer.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:51 am

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't agree. many in my family (parents and cousins, Aunts and Uncles and such) that are staunch republicans chose not to vote at all on account of that remark.


Bob you remember well what a fire breathing conservative republican I was a couple of years ago. That pussy comment along with a million others up to him sitting with military brass calling a raid on Chumps "fixer" to unveil his lawlessness an "attack on america, what we all stand for really" is why this former republican and now centrist independent will never vote for any republican who isn't on the record opposing trump EVER. I'll find a reason to vote for some democrats while I root for a Gary Johnson, maybe a Jeff Flake at the midterms. I'm cured of the pony party of Evangelical shills who say gays are bad but boffing porn stars and playboy bunnies while in the 2nd year of marriage to a woman who just bore your son is A OK. So apparently is intimidating the woman into signing NDAs days before an election so close that their utterly depraved revelations may well have been that bridge too far for another 100k conservatives in the rust belt.

Now we have an utter loon tweeting out "get ready Russia" a few minutes ago in between tweets attacking news articles linking him more and more to corruption with Russia and Ukraine by the day. Russia is successfully hacking our drones and has promised to shoot down any plane or missile or attack any ship that attacks Syrian despot Assad.Putins got his balls right where he wants them, in a vise, his hand selected blackmailed plaything.
Can you say wag the dog from hell? Impeach now for the safety of the planet.

I don't want to wish my life away but I cannot wait till november to flush the toilet. Drain the swamp of all swamps if you will.

Ill give Chump this. Hes made me open my eyes. I'm a better man for opposing him....
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:59 am

The only redeeming thing of any good to come from the Rump is that he has inspired many young people and especially women to run for office. Women are running and winning in record numbers all across America because of this Jackwad. Grab em by the pussy?...Alright, but just realize that pussy bites back.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:02 am

Oh and BTW Micheal Cohen gave an interview to CNN on tuesday "fake news" of all people saying the FBI was very "courteous and professional" in their raid. He added that he wishes he was not in this position and "would have reconsidered his actions" if he had realized he would be. He's worried about himself and his family. He said he "has not spoken with Trump since the raid". This doesn't sound like the tough guy who said he would take a bullet for Trump and would "always protect the Potus" exactly 12 hours before the raid when the agent knocked, put his foot in the door and immediately removed Cohens cell phone from his hand. Good morning Micheal, better smell the coffee.... This guy knows it all over the last 12 years, the money laundering, the criminal activity, the payoffs to maybe a hundred women. Its bad.And he's going to sing like a bird and soon.

Its why Trump is apoplectic. He knows what he's done wrong and there's no good way out.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:49 am

Ill give Chump this. Hes made me open my eyes. I'm a better man for opposing him....


Nice. I'll count that as a rare point in his favor.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:03 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:We will see. But this has nothing to do with Russia.

You're exaggerating again. If all they have is a guy paying off a couple of women not to talk, expect to see a bunch of politicians outed for just this behavior because I guarantee Trump is not the only one in Washington doing this.

This is interesting,but pretty far down the chain for what they were looking for. It would be amusing to see a president taken down for sleeping with pornstars and playmates. Not sure what effect such findings would have on your reputation. I wonder if it might increase his male votes. I could see some college males laughing, "Vote for the president that bangs pornstars and playmates."


You're right, it doesn't have a thing to do with the Russia investigation. But his lawyer is tied to both it and the Stormy Daniels affair, which is how Mueller stumbled upon evidence in the unrelated Daniels case.

Although the Daniels case has more potential to 'take down Trump' than does the Russia investigation, I still don't see him being removed from office. Even if Trump were proven to have violated election laws, it would open up one huge debate: Which is the worst of the two crimes: A violation of election laws with sex between two consenting adults as its root cause or perjury with sex between two consenting adults at its core?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

One day Rump says "we have a better relationship with Russia than ever".

Now, it's "Russia, missles will be coming to Syria".
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:58 am

Largent80 wrote:One day Rump says "we have a better relationship with Russia than ever".

Now, it's "Russia, missles will be coming to Syria".


Can't blame Trump on that one. How was he to know that Syria was going to launch another chemical attack on its own people?
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:20 am

c_hawkbob wrote:And that there is how an investigation into one thing can (and often does) effect things not necessarily under the purview of that initial investigation.

Wait till it gets to the bookkeeping ...

Aseahawkfan wrote:The lawyer's bookkeeping or Trump's? if they could go after Trump's books, not sure why they haven't yet. Also, I'm fairly certain Trump's books are done by a highly paid accounting firm that may not have been willing to doctor books. But as with all things with this investigation, we shall see. So far it seems they have nearly nothing. If they're raiding Trump's lawyer for a payment to a pornstar, that's really not enough.


Legal issues, especially involving the POTUS take time, you say you don't know why they haven't gone after the books yet? That's what's happening right now. The porn star is just the way in the door:

The source said investigators were looking into whether there was a broader pattern of tax fraud, wire fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and other crimes in Cohen’s private dealings, including his work for Trump and some real estate transactions that involved Russian buyers and prices that appeared to be well above market values.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-resume ... 14582.html

Always follow the money.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:49 am

Ha. If your lawyer supposedly paid off someone to shut up out of their own pocket what are you going to say if you are a professional liar like the Rumpster?

He has fried his own Rump, and this is what all of us knew he would do. And he did it before even being elected, sh*t rolls downhill and it's just now gathering speed.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:38 am

Hawktawk wrote:Oh and BTW Micheal Cohen gave an interview to CNN on tuesday "fake news" of all people saying the FBI was very "courteous and professional" in their raid. He added that he wishes he was not in this position and "would have reconsidered his actions" if he had realized he would be. He's worried about himself and his family. He said he "has not spoken with Trump since the raid". This doesn't sound like the tough guy who said he would take a bullet for Trump and would "always protect the Potus" exactly 12 hours before the raid when the agent knocked, put his foot in the door and immediately removed Cohens cell phone from his hand. Good morning Micheal, better smell the coffee.... This guy knows it all over the last 12 years, the money laundering, the criminal activity, the payoffs to maybe a hundred women. Its bad.And he's going to sing like a bird and soon.

Its why Trump is apoplectic. He knows what he's done wrong and there's no good way out.


And we will see if you are right this time. This does look more dangerous to him than Russia.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Legal issues, especially involving the POTUS take time, you say you don't know why they haven't gone after the books yet? That's what's happening right now. The porn star is just the way in the door:

The source said investigators were looking into whether there was a broader pattern of tax fraud, wire fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and other crimes in Cohen’s private dealings, including his work for Trump and some real estate transactions that involved Russian buyers and prices that appeared to be well above market values.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-resume ... 14582.html


Yahoo is not the best source for news. They hate Trump as much as Hawktawk and post the loosest of news negative about Trump. But this is more interesting than the Russia investigation which is mostly horsecrap.

This could stick. But it will also create problems in Washington since so many politicians pay women off to keep quiet. If paying off women allows access to their books, then that will be a legal loophole people in Washington may not want. This is not something new or unique to Trump. When you look into the background of almost any wealthy person, you're going to find skeletons. We'll see if these are big enough to bring Trump down or another red herring for the press to play with, but not much for taking down Trump.

Always follow the money.


Wouldn't be the first time this worked. We all know the classic tale of Al Capone taken down for tax evasion. Trump taken down for banging playmates and pornstars would be pretty funny. I have to admit it put a grin on my face because it's just so hilariously appropriate.

I figure this will either make or break this investigation. If they can't get him after raiding his lawyer and turning some of his campaign advisers, they likely won't be able to get him. I think they have to pursue charges by October or November or they'll get shutdown. I think what they're really waiting for is the midterm elections. If the Democrats take the Congress, they'll have the power to pursue impeachment. If they don't, then Trump has a great chance of survival.

So we'll have clarity after midterms on whether this Democratic power play will work.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:15 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Legal issues, especially involving the POTUS take time...


That's true, and you also have the complication of a little thing called Executive Privilige, which Richard Nixon used, or tried to use, to keep his taped recordings of his discussions about the Watergate break in secret.

At this point...and things could change...the only thing that could get Trump in deep trouble is if he were to fire Mueller, which he desperately wants to do but is currently being reigned in by his advisors. If he were to fire Mueller, it would add an obstruction of justice charge, something that congressional Republicans could not condone.

It was Nixon's firing of Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor of the Watergate investigation, that got the impeachment ball rolling.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:16 pm

It's a Reuters news story, Yahoo is just the convenient link.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:26 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:This could stick. But it will also create problems in Washington since so many politicians pay women off to keep quiet. If paying off women allows access to their books, then that will be a legal loophole people in Washington may not want. This is not something new or unique to Trump.


The issue isn't whether or not he paid hush money. He most certainly did, and like you said, it's not the first time. The issue is whether or not he (or his lawyer) did so in order to keep her from interfering with the election. If they can prove that as a motive for the payment, then he (or his lawyer) would be subject to an election law violation, a felony crime. It's a very similar to a case a few years ago that brought down John Edwards, a former Senator and VP candidate even though he was never convicted.

If the Democrats take the Congress, they'll have the power to pursue impeachment. If they don't, then Trump has a great chance of survival.


They could impeach him, but it takes a 2/3 majority in the Senate to remove him from office, and taking over the Senate is going to be a monumental task for the Dems as they have twice as many seats to defend as the R's do.

And believe me, after the Clinton impeachment trial taught us that perjury isn't an impeachable offense as long as it was about sex, it's going to take more than an election law violation to turn a third of the Republican Senators against him.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:35 pm

RiverDog wrote:They could impeach him, but it takes a 2/3 majority in the Senate to remove him from office, and taking over the Senate is going to be a monumental task for the Dems as they have twice as many seats to defend as the R's do.

And believe me, after the Clinton impeachment trial taught us that perjury isn't an impeachable offense as long as it was about sex, it's going to take more than an election law violation to turn a third of the Republican Senators against him.


I agree. That's why I think people like hawktawk are overlooking how important midterm elections are for the Democrats. There are only two things bringing Trump down: evidence even the Republicans can't overlook or the Democrats taking some real power in the House or some combination of the two. If the Democrats don't win big during the midterms, I think this election investigation will be on its way to being shutdown with only some minor players being prosecuted. Sort of like the Iran-Contra Scandal during Reagan-Bush.

This whole thing has been dumb. If anyone thinks Russia, China, or other foreign powers are going to stop paying for influence or sending lobbyists, they are as gullible as gullible can be. These foreign groups been manipulating our politics for a long time. It's why we have such crappy trade agreements like NAFTA and Chine openly manipulating their currency to make favorable trade ratios with us.

This is all such a dog and pony show. It's embarrassing. I'm wondering if I'll see a quality president that will tell the American people what they need to hear and convince them to do what needs to be done or we'll continue as is until we go bankrupt and live in a completely crap country with overly coddled children, too many drug addicts, and a generally weak nation waiting to fall slowly apart. I liken it to what I see at work when someone dumbs something down or creates a policy that creates less work, then someone tries to change it back. The workers complain about more work when the standard is raised and say not a thing when the standard is lowered. The lower standard is what they start to expect even if it leads to less efficient and effective work. They don't care. That's how these handouts from the governments work and the tax situation. I don't expect any president or congress to do what needs to be done to clean up the fiscal mess until we collapse.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:02 pm

The House is irrelevant regarding impeachment. The real power is in the Senate. No matter what happens in the mid terms, it's going to take at least 10-12 Republican Senators to vote to convict if the House ever impeaches Trump. It's the same dilemma that the Republicans faced when they impeached Clinton. The midterms aren't going to change a thing regarding Trump's ability to serve out his term.

I do feel that the issue of hush money is significant and I support a full investigation and prosecution of the accusation. I understand that it's been going on for eons, but that doesn't mean that we should overlook it when it happens. But I don't think it rises to the level of a "high crime" as defined by the Constitution.

I don't think the election law violation that almost certainly occurred helped Trump win the presidency. If the "grab 'em by the p****" remark didn't affect the election, I can't see how an unrestrained Stormy Daniels blabbing about having sex with candidate Trump 10 years ago would have made any significant difference in the results of the election. That's what's so stupid about this, why anyone would pay that slut $130K.

As far as the Russian investigation goes, I'm going to defer to Mueller's judgement. I'm giving him some elbow room.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:26 am

Not fair calling Daniels a slut without calling Chump a super slut. Doesn't look like he has ever had a shred of morality or self control in his entire life. At least shes honest about who she is, and unashamed.

Regardless intimidating her into silence is a crime unless she's lying. Her attorney Michael Avenatti states that they have compiled a composite sketch of the perpetrator in conjunction with the leading forensic artist in the nation and are very close to identifying the individual responsible for threatening her and her infant daughter in Las Vegas but have been asked to not reveal it by unnamed individuals. He further stated they may never have to. It is alleged by them that acts of intimidation have continued since his election and that they are cooperating with federal authorities on the matters.This is mob boss stuff, straight up gangster thug criminal element.

As for impeaching this pres don't be so sure of his safe passage through the senate.Sen Grassley has introduced legislation protecting Mueller and said that it would be suicide if Trump fires him.Graham, John Kennedy, John Cornyn, Jeff Flake, Bob Corker, Lisa Murkowski , Susan Collins at a minimum would vote to impeach him. Thats 8 right there. Im betting there's 3 more patriotic Republicans who would do the right thing. I worry more about the Devin Nunes in the house who are threatening to impeach Jeff Sessions, Christopher Wray and Rod Rosenstein for not revealing evidence that is redacted to keep their boy Trump guessing. It may take the midterms to flip the house which I will certainly do my part strictly to bring this miserable SOB down and save democracy. With the dems picking off red seat after red seat its highly likely that will happen and the amount of Dem Senate seats to be defended will be irrelevant as they will win them all and dethrone more senate republicans. 70% of americans want Mueller to finish the investigation with only 20% strongly opposed. If he shuts this down hes a goner.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:23 am

Hawktawk wrote:Not fair calling Daniels a slut without calling Chump a super slut. Doesn't look like he has ever had a shred of morality or self control in his entire life. At least shes honest about who she is, and unashamed.

Regardless intimidating her into silence is a crime unless she's lying. Her attorney Michael Avenatti states that they have compiled a composite sketch of the perpetrator in conjunction with the leading forensic artist in the nation and are very close to identifying the individual responsible for threatening her and her infant daughter in Las Vegas but have been asked to not reveal it by unnamed individuals. He further stated they may never have to. It is alleged by them that acts of intimidation have continued since his election and that they are cooperating with federal authorities on the matters.This is mob boss stuff, straight up gangster thug criminal element.

As for impeaching this pres don't be so sure of his safe passage through the senate.Sen Grassley has introduced legislation protecting Mueller and said that it would be suicide if Trump fires him.Graham, John Kennedy, John Cornyn, Jeff Flake, Bob Corker, Lisa Murkowski , Susan Collins at a minimum would vote to impeach him. Thats 8 right there. Im betting there's 3 more patriotic Republicans who would do the right thing. I worry more about the Devin Nunes in the house who are threatening to impeach Jeff Sessions, Christopher Wray and Rod Rosenstein for not revealing evidence that is redacted to keep their boy Trump guessing. It may take the midterms to flip the house which I will certainly do my part strictly to bring this miserable SOB down and save democracy. With the dems picking off red seat after red seat its highly likely that will happen and the amount of Dem Senate seats to be defended will be irrelevant as they will win them all and dethrone more senate republicans. 70% of americans want Mueller to finish the investigation with only 20% strongly opposed. If he shuts this down hes a goner.


Donald Trump is a super slut. I have been very consistent in my appraisals of his persona. I personally don't like him anymore than you do.

I don't believe Stormy Daniels intimidation story until she can recall a few more specifics, and I certainly don't believe her attorney. Daniels has already admitted that her porn business is booming since she came out of the woodwork. She's going to turn her attorney into a multi millionaire. They both have huge money to make in this scandal, and it's a no lose situation for both of them. Anything that comes out of their mouths has to be taken with a grain of salt until they can come up with hard evidence to support it.

As far as impeachment goes, I underestimated the number of R Senators that would be needed. It takes 67 votes to convict, and the Republicans only have to defend 8 seats in November. Even if they lost all 8, which isn't going to happen, they would still have a minimum of 43 Senators, with the remaining 57 being Democrats or independents. That means a MINIMUM of 10 Republican Senators that would have to give up Trump. With Mitt Romney running for Orin Hatch's vacated seat in a deep red Utah, that takes it up to 11. They'd also have to unseat Ted Cruz in Texas and John Barrasso in Wyoming, who won his last election by 76%. As a matter of fact, of the 8 seats that are up for re-election, 6 are rated as safe or likely to stay in R hands. If the Dems regain control of the Senate, it will only be by a very slim margin, meaning that they're going to need around 15 R's to vote for a conviction in an impeachment trial. And that's assuming that they will successfully defend all 22 of their seats up for re-election.

It's going to take some very convincing evidence to get a likely 14-15 Senate Republicans to convict him, and as I pointed out, the Democrats defense of Bill Clinton will come back to haunt them if all they have to prosecute Trump on is an election law violation that has as it's root cause an extramarital affair 10 years before. I was watching Fox News yesterday, and all their guests could talk about was the hypocrisy of Democrats defending Slick Willy over sex yet wanting to hang Trump for the same root cause.

You're dreaming, my friend. Your hatred of Trump is so intense that it's affecting the rational side of your mind.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:00 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ru ... li=BBnbfcL
Its long since ceased to be funny. Trumps tweets the other morning telling Russia to "get ready" for our smart missiles were ridiculously irresponsible. Good lord.
Its not an argument I want to win but we have not been in more peril domestically or internationally than with this loon in power.

And RD the impeachment argument is one I hope and expect to win. Politicians may be self serving but at a certain point they will have to realize that they need not be on the wrong side of history when they will be taking a shellacking in november anyway. Its time for Pence before he is irrevocably soiled as well. I sure haven't seen him publicly defending the president or really making himself available to the press much at all. hes laying low and hes the republicans only chance at the WH in 2020.
I must be paying too much attention to the wrong news sources but I think there's plenty to the collusion/conspiracy angle with whats already in the public domain and as Mueller has proven we know a fraction of whats really going on inside the investigation. These shock and awe no knock raids are as much about getting other people who are likely under electronic surveillance to freak out and further incriminate themselves. Its pounding on the dumpster to see how many rats crawl out and Cohen is the biggest so far and hes going to flip the whole kit and kaboodle wide open.

Obstruction of justice is committed every time Trump rants about his AG etc not protecting him.And I believe Daniels and her Attorney who is already a wealthy hitter with many pelts to his credit. Hes running rings around Trump and his incredibly incompetent legal staff.
Trumps going down if we aren't all an ash first....
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:58 pm

Yea, and this morning I heard him complaining about the press taking away his element of surprise in the Syrian crisis.

You're never going to get an endorsement of Trump out of me. He's a horrible Commander in Chief, a horrible leader, and a horrible role model. But he's going to serve his 4 year term.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:43 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Not fair calling Daniels a slut without calling Chump a super slut. Doesn't look like he has ever had a shred of morality or self control in his entire life. At least shes honest about who she is, and unashamed.


Did anyone say Trump was a good person? Oh wait, IDHawkman. That has always been strange to me. I knew Trump was a womanizer going in. The guy's been mostly public about his banging around. The only people that didn't know were people that had never noticed the man.

As for impeaching this pres don't be so sure of his safe passage through the senate.Sen Grassley has introduced legislation protecting Mueller and said that it would be suicide if Trump fires him.Graham, John Kennedy, John Cornyn, Jeff Flake, Bob Corker, Lisa Murkowski , Susan Collins at a minimum would vote to impeach him. Thats 8 right there. Im betting there's 3 more patriotic Republicans who would do the right thing. I worry more about the Devin Nunes in the house who are threatening to impeach Jeff Sessions, Christopher Wray and Rod Rosenstein for not revealing evidence that is redacted to keep their boy Trump guessing. It may take the midterms to flip the house which I will certainly do my part strictly to bring this miserable SOB down and save democracy. With the dems picking off red seat after red seat its highly likely that will happen and the amount of Dem Senate seats to be defended will be irrelevant as they will win them all and dethrone more senate republicans. 70% of americans want Mueller to finish the investigation with only 20% strongly opposed. If he shuts this down hes a goner.


Save Democracy? How are you saving it? It hasn't been a true Democracy of a long-time. The only way you're going to save this country is you gain a lot more power and clarity than you have. This nation is more of an Oligarchy now ruled by corporations, powerful lobbying groups, foreign powers, and a corrupt Federal government. Unless you consider democracy being able to watch your weekly sports, watch your porn, do drugs, or pay lots of taxes. As far as true freedom including individual responsibility, owning your labor, and being able to speak your mind and choose to live a way of life you believe in, that's mostly done. You'll cowtow to the corps, lobbying groups, and the like or you'll pay the price.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Hawktawk wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-tv-mockingly-prepares-for-war-with-us-instructing-citizens-to-buy-water-and-gas-masks/ar-AAvNhJP?li=BBnbfcL
Its long since ceased to be funny. Trumps tweets the other morning telling Russia to "get ready" for our smart missiles were ridiculously irresponsible. Good lord.
Its not an argument I want to win but we have not been in more peril domestically or internationally than with this loon in power.

And RD the impeachment argument is one I hope and expect to win. Politicians may be self serving but at a certain point they will have to realize that they need not be on the wrong side of history when they will be taking a shellacking in november anyway. Its time for Pence before he is irrevocably soiled as well. I sure haven't seen him publicly defending the president or really making himself available to the press much at all. hes laying low and hes the republicans only chance at the WH in 2020.
I must be paying too much attention to the wrong news sources but I think there's plenty to the collusion/conspiracy angle with whats already in the public domain and as Mueller has proven we know a fraction of whats really going on inside the investigation. These shock and awe no knock raids are as much about getting other people who are likely under electronic surveillance to freak out and further incriminate themselves. Its pounding on the dumpster to see how many rats crawl out and Cohen is the biggest so far and hes going to flip the whole kit and kaboodle wide open.

Obstruction of justice is committed every time Trump rants about his AG etc not protecting him.And I believe Daniels and her Attorney who is already a wealthy hitter with many pelts to his credit. Hes running rings around Trump and his incredibly incompetent legal staff.
Trumps going down if we aren't all an ash first....


You haven't been right since you started posting. So far Trump has done next to nothing that has put is more peril than during periods like World War 1 and 2, The Civil War, The Vietnam War, the 60s as a whole, and so many other times in our history. Why are you building this clown into a far bigger villain than he is? Why are you doing this when it is factually wrong? I know you know more about history than to spew this lying crap. I can only assume you're irrational statements are due to mental illness or obsession because you are provably wrong.

Trump is nothing more than a very annoying, crass, low morality rich man that managed to get in The White House. Don't let the man become bigger than he is. You building him up into this enormous villain is just fueling the man's ego. He loves guys like you making the little man into some great figure even if it is a villain.

You don't want him in office, then do what you can get to him out. I could care less. But stop with the ridiculous attacks on Democracy and the like. It sounds like ignorance by an American that should know better. Your grandparents lived through World War 2 when they really were in peril. You live in 2018 when our major enemies literally rely on us to fuel their economies and war is not desirable for anyone, especially not Russia or China who cannot afford a war at all. The global economy is currently so intertwined there is literally no incentive for a world war at all. If you study war, then you know that a very specific set of circumstances has to exist for war to occur. Those circumstances do not come close to currently existing. Wake the hell up. Little Man Trump will be out of office in four years the most, sooner if he impeached. We're going to be just fine either way. Calm the hell down. Then we'll get some centrist in the White House and then Fox and CNN/CNBC can get back to bashing each other for the usual things while the economy builds another bubble that will pop and the cycle will continue until something dramatic changes.

The only time you'll have to worry about war if is you see one of the big countries suffer a resource shortage on a level that requires them to expand by war rather than economically or something insane like a terrorist attack of a huge magnitude. The precursors for war are very particular. They do not exist in America, China, or Russia currently, the only nations that could start a World War.
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Re: The Russia thing

Postby RiverDog » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:45 pm

I posted this once before in a thread similar to the gloom and doom Trump alarmists, but it bears repeating.

Here are some dates in relatively recent history that in my opinion, are more alarming and stressful than today's times:

October 29th, 1929 (stock market crash)
December 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor)
November 22nd, 1963 (JFK assassination)
September 11th, 2001 (terrorist attacks)
February 1st, 2015 (Seahawks lose SB 49)
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