White House in Dissaray

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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby burrrton » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:06 pm

Secondly, illegal immigration is a security risk and needs to be dealt with, and if that's all he wanted to do, then I'd be supportive of him. But Trump doesn't want to just stop illegal immigration. He wants to cut down by half on all LEGAL immigrants, and has not made his case for such a drastic reduction.


Further, people sneaking over our southern border comprise a minority of our 'illegal immigrant' population. I can't remember the #s offhand, but most are people from Asia, and most have just over-stayed their Visas.

I want to reduce illegal immigration to *zero*, but this attitude that every person who comes here illegally from down south is both a freeloading criminal and our primary problem is positively ridiculous.

Come to where I live- I can guaran-fcking-tee you on any given day at 5:30am *every* morning between April and November, I can show you carloads of young men, who I guarantee are overwhelmingly illegal (or at least non-citizens), on their way to work their asses off, usually with 5 of them in the back seat of a beat-up Tercel.

The southern border needs to be secured, but let's be clear- it's not the biggest issue with "illegal immigration".
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Largent80 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:47 am

We only have ONE world and we also are human beings. Sometimes compassion has to rule over compulsion.

Most of these people do jobs that Americans don't want anyway. The problem I have is that we give out assistance to them.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby RiverDog » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:00 pm

burrrton wrote:Further, people sneaking over our southern border comprise a minority of our 'illegal immigrant' population. I can't remember the #s offhand, but most are people from Asia, and most have just over-stayed their Visas.

I want to reduce illegal immigration to *zero*, but this attitude that every person who comes here illegally from down south is both a freeloading criminal and our primary problem is positively ridiculous.

Come to where I live- I can guaran-fcking-tee you on any given day at 5:30am *every* morning between April and November, I can show you carloads of young men, who I guarantee are overwhelmingly illegal (or at least non-citizens), on their way to work their asses off, usually with 5 of them in the back seat of a beat-up Tercel.

The southern border needs to be secured, but let's be clear- it's not the biggest issue with "illegal immigration".


I'm not sure how many are undocumented illegals vs. temporary workers, ie green cards. Over the years, they've really cracked down on employers hiring illegal aliens. My industry used to hire lots of illegals, but not anymore, and I'd be very surprised if the larger farming operations, such as Broetjie Orchards and Agri Northwest, are hiring illegals.

One of the biggest problems with temporary workers from Mexico and Central and South America is that they are not familiar with our drunken driving laws. It's a different culture down there, and they're used to behaving in a much different manner that's perfectly acceptable down there but illegal as hell up here. If they get caught driving drunk down there, all it costs them is a $20 bribe to the police.

As far as Largen't point about giving assistance to them, there are a lot of immigrants on public assistance, but one has to keep in mind that they're performing low paying jobs and qualify for assistance via the laws that we created. Besides, many of them are working these low paying jobs as an entry level position, and with low seniority are subject to more layoffs, but eventually acquire skills or education and work their way up the pay scale. One also has to keep in mind the fact that immigrants tend to be younger, and as such, do not have many health problems compared to the average native born worker, so they're paying into insurance plans/Social Security/Medicare and not drawing out of it at the same rate as the native born.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:17 pm

RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure how many are undocumented illegals vs. temporary workers, ie green cards. Over the years, they've really cracked down on employers hiring illegal aliens. My industry used to hire lots of illegals, but not anymore, and I'd be very surprised if the larger farming operations, such as Broetjie Orchards and Agri Northwest, are hiring illegals.

One of the biggest problems with temporary workers from Mexico and Central and South America is that they are not familiar with our drunken driving laws. It's a different culture down there, and they're used to behaving in a much different manner that's perfectly acceptable down there but illegal as hell up here. If they get caught driving drunk down there, all it costs them is a $20 bribe to the police.

As far as Largen't point about giving assistance to them, there are a lot of immigrants on public assistance, but one has to keep in mind that they're performing low paying jobs and qualify for assistance via the laws that we created. Besides, many of them are working these low paying jobs as an entry level position, and with low seniority are subject to more layoffs, but eventually acquire skills or education and work their way up the pay scale. One also has to keep in mind the fact that immigrants tend to be younger, and as such, do not have many health problems compared to the average native born worker, so they're paying into insurance plans/Social Security/Medicare and not drawing out of it at the same rate as the native born.


I would imagine it depends. Immigrants tend to have more children. These children tend to need healthcare assistance. You get a lot of money drawn out of the public funds for child healthcare. Birth control is not heavily practiced in third world nations.

I would like to know how many jobs became low paying because of immigrant labor. I know some companies are even using illegal labor for non-union electrical and construction work. These jobs used to be high or at least moderately well paid jobs. Now they are performed for less money by immigrant laborers. They'll hire an electrician with a license, then bring in immigrant laborers to do the actual work without licenses. They'll use this immigrant labor to underbid on contracts for licensed union labor by citizens because it's far cheaper to employ immigrant labor. Is this good for us?

Is it good to have illegal immigrants come over and have lots of children? Their children are considered American citizens and this creates the situation that we see publically debated: what to do with immigrants that have American children (born on our soil), but came over illegally. We're all supposed to feel bad for them, but this is tactical on their part. Because they know our laws allow them to stay here if they have children, we encourage this type of forced citizenship tactics. My mother worked in a public hospital in Texas and saw it happen all the time. They would come over near their time of labor through Juarez, have the baby in America, then file for social benefits to stay.

I don't see increasing our population as particularly wise. I would rather see it reduced some to create more wide open spaces. Part of the problem with this world is the increasing expansion of the human population driven by 3rd world nations that continue to breed like we still live in ancient times. From this we just get more pollution, congestion, economic thinness, and lower quality of life. Scale applies to all things and more is most definitely not always better.

I'm not a huge believer in human-driven climate change. But I am a huge believer in human driven pollution that is leads to lower quality health and life in general. I see this gigantic concern for global warming which the science shows will happen no matter what humans do (just at a supposedly lower rate if we lower carbon emissions...a point missed by most global warming fanatics), but the pollution is directly caused by human activity. The garbage, the chemicals, the need for more farm land and space for materials to feed the human expansion. Are we really going to keep growing populations until we end up a third world nation?

I personally think humans will keep racing against the inevitable until we have a mass death from a depleted environment as the human population much like the rabbit population in an area with no natural predators leads to such an exhaustion of the environment that a massive percentage of death is inevitable. I don't think America is very wise to continue to add to its already unwieldy population with its social system and government on the way to bankruptcy. New people will not change this outcome. It will only spread thinner what we have.

I know there's not much I can do about it. Humans are animals. Highly intelligent, but animals nonetheless. The drive to breed is an inherent part of them, even if they breed themselves into extinction if we reach the point where we can no longer extract from our environment sufficient materials to support the current human population. Then humans have never been able to do things in a very orderly fashion with a positive outcome. They always keep on going until some horrible event happens, then do it all over again.

This does not even include the legal H1B Visa program pushed by the tech companies to create a global labor pool. I still remember a Google Executive using the same tired argument about "unqualified tech workers" in America at the height of the economic collapses of 2008. Massive unemployment across the board and this guy is still pushing the H1B Visa program claiming American tech workers can't satisfy their requirements. It became crystal clear that it was total bullcrap and the part they never added was "for the money we want to pay."
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Old but Slow » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:30 pm

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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby RiverDog » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:35 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I would imagine it depends. Immigrants tend to have more children. These children tend to need healthcare assistance. You get a lot of money drawn out of the public funds for child healthcare. Birth control is not heavily practiced in third world nations.

I would like to know how many jobs became low paying because of immigrant labor. I know some companies are even using illegal labor for non-union electrical and construction work. These jobs used to be high or at least moderately well paid jobs. Now they are performed for less money by immigrant laborers. They'll hire an electrician with a license, then bring in immigrant laborers to do the actual work without licenses. They'll use this immigrant labor to underbid on contracts for licensed union labor by citizens because it's far cheaper to employ immigrant labor. Is this good for us?

Is it good to have illegal immigrants come over and have lots of children? Their children are considered American citizens and this creates the situation that we see publically debated: what to do with immigrants that have American children (born on our soil), but came over illegally. We're all supposed to feel bad for them, but this is tactical on their part. Because they know our laws allow them to stay here if they have children, we encourage this type of forced citizenship tactics. My mother worked in a public hospital in Texas and saw it happen all the time. They would come over near their time of labor through Juarez, have the baby in America, then file for social benefits to stay.

I don't see increasing our population as particularly wise. I would rather see it reduced some to create more wide open spaces. Part of the problem with this world is the increasing expansion of the human population driven by 3rd world nations that continue to breed like we still live in ancient times. From this we just get more pollution, congestion, economic thinness, and lower quality of life. Scale applies to all things and more is most definitely not always better.

I'm not a huge believer in human-driven climate change. But I am a huge believer in human driven pollution that is leads to lower quality health and life in general. I see this gigantic concern for global warming which the science shows will happen no matter what humans do (just at a supposedly lower rate if we lower carbon emissions...a point missed by most global warming fanatics), but the pollution is directly caused by human activity. The garbage, the chemicals, the need for more farm land and space for materials to feed the human expansion. Are we really going to keep growing populations until we end up a third world nation?

I personally think humans will keep racing against the inevitable until we have a mass death from a depleted environment as the human population much like the rabbit population in an area with no natural predators leads to such an exhaustion of the environment that a massive percentage of death is inevitable. I don't think America is very wise to continue to add to its already unwieldy population with its social system and government on the way to bankruptcy. New people will not change this outcome. It will only spread thinner what we have.

I know there's not much I can do about it. Humans are animals. Highly intelligent, but animals nonetheless. The drive to breed is an inherent part of them, even if they breed themselves into extinction if we reach the point where we can no longer extract from our environment sufficient materials to support the current human population. Then humans have never been able to do things in a very orderly fashion with a positive outcome. They always keep on going until some horrible event happens, then do it all over again.

This does not even include the legal H1B Visa program pushed by the tech companies to create a global labor pool. I still remember a Google Executive using the same tired argument about "unqualified tech workers" in America at the height of the economic collapses of 2008. Massive unemployment across the board and this guy is still pushing the H1B Visa program claiming American tech workers can't satisfy their requirements. It became crystal clear that it was total bullcrap and the part they never added was "for the money we want to pay."


20 kids don't run up the health care bill nearly as much as one aging adult. For example, one open heart surgery runs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That'll pay for a lot of Dimetapp.

I hear ya about immigrants wanting to bring entire families into the country. We don't necessarily have to permit it. I don't have a problem limiting immigration to no more than two people per application, or prohibiting them from obtaining public assistance for a specified time. I'm open to attaching strings and advocate raising the bar as to who we admit. But that's not what Trump is proposing. He's proposing to cut in half all immigration, regardless of qualifications.

I agree with your thoughts regarding over population. It's the root cause of just about every problem mankind faces. But we're not going to solve it by erecting walls around our country. It's a world wide problem, and implementing controls on immigration isn't going to fix it.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:24 pm

I can't take it any more. Someone get this narcissist out of office. Focusing on crowd sizes and NFL players kneeling in protest because the media hasn't shown enough interest in him. Please don't let him win another term. I can only take four years of the White House being run like a Trump reality show.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby burrrton » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:36 pm

I've made my thoughts on athletes giving the country a middle finger over their grievances well known, but Trump sounded like a complete fool and lunatic making those idiotic statements.

I have a feeling we're inching closer and closer to his reelection becoming all but assured, though, with the inability of his critics to be rational in their responses.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:02 pm

I agree with the last two posts. For me, it's less about Trump's politics and more about the person and his style, especially the way he's lowering himself to that little tin pot dictator in N. Korea. I've pretty much had it with the Republican party and am seriously considering voting Democratic in the mid term elections just to oppose Trump. I've never voted for a Dem for national office, but that might change in 2018.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:42 pm

I can't vote Democratic. Their party is too tied to scum ruining this nation. Then again both parties seem to tied to scum ruining this nation. I'll maybe try to find a third party candidate again or vote no confidence like the last three elections. This nation is not producing quality political leaders that want to teach the values that I love about America. Self-sufficiency, liberty, ambition, competitiveness, and pursuit of excellence. It's all victim mentality, petty celebrity, more government intervention that never seems to work effectively, militarism, welfare mentality, coddling, and just general behaviors that weaken our character and stretch our resources to thin as well as involve us in stupid foreign problems that we wouldn't be involved in.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:47 pm

It feels like we elected an Internet Troll into the Office of President. He's trolling everyone he can at every opportunity just to see the Internet and Media react to him.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:54 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I can't vote Democratic. Their party is too tied to scum ruining this nation. Then again both parties seem to tied to scum ruining this nation. I'll maybe try to find a third party candidate again or vote no confidence like the last three elections. This nation is not producing quality political leaders that want to teach the values that I love about America. Self-sufficiency, liberty, ambition, competitiveness, and pursuit of excellence. It's all victim mentality, petty celebrity, more government intervention that never seems to work effectively, militarism, welfare mentality, coddling, and just general behaviors that weaken our character and stretch our resources to thin as well as involve us in stupid foreign problems that we wouldn't be involved in.


I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary, I voted for Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate. I'd really like to see a 3rd party get some traction, but I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime. In the meantime, I want to oppose Donald Trump and what he stands for.
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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby Largent80 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:17 pm

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Re: White House in Dissaray

Postby c_hawkbob » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:23 pm

For all the hate and negativity that has come from Trump’s presidency, I am still hopeful for justice and love to win out. As I continue to my efforts with the youth of our communities and engage with this hatred, I will resist the urge to return hate with hate and instead react in love and compassion for those who simply can not.


Go Dougy.
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