Historical Monuments

Politics, Religion, Salsa Recipes, etc. Everything you shouldn't bring up at your Uncle's house.

Historical Monuments

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:56 am

I don't know about the rest of you, but, I have ancestors on BOTH sides of the conflict. I keep reading that most of these "Civil War" monuments were erected by the KKK during the "Jim Crow" era. What a load of BALDERDASH!!! They were put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy, yes, during the era of Jim Crow but NOT by the KKK.

This removing or, even worse, this covering up of historical monuments is shear MADNESS. If you want to start a second
Civil War just keep up this utter stupidity. I just read about a tiny out of the way monument to Lee that was so small no one could even see it from the highway, there wasn't even parking for people to pull over and look at it, yet, it now has been dragged in to this made up controversy.

I HATE the KKK, NAZIs, neo or otherwise, and ALL RACISTS, not just those who hate people of color, I hate those who disparage anybody who is not like themselves.

I have to sat though, do we really NEED a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest, the founder of the KKK???? OK, but any statue of NBF should be accompanied with information that puts it into the proper context, not just a veneration. That man does NOT deserve veneration!

Yes, yes, yes there are plenty of history books. But the history of the Civil War is taught much different in Massachusetts than is the "War Between the States" down in Georgia. So, putting these monuments in their proper context is fine, but not just to tear them down or even worse, hide them away as if they never existed.

My Great, Great Grandmother was a little girl during that war, she remembered vividly when her father read the "Emancipation Proclamation" to the slaves he had up until that time, owned. The "older" ones stayed but the younger ones left. At the end of the war, my family didn't have anything left, the Confederacy had taken it all. My family moved to California and half (my half) of the family then moved up here to Washington State, Spokane to be exact. In fact, many, many people who were Southerners left the South after the war, many of those who wave the Stars and Bars are the Sons and Daughters of the Carpet Baggers who came down from the North to pick over the bones of what was left of the South. These were the people who lead Reconstruction and it was those abuses which led directly to the formation of the KKK and the Jim Crow laws that came later. I am in NO WAY trying to justify those abominable institutions, I am just saying that there is more to the story and the WHOLE story should be told.

This nation has got along for decades respecting each other and it didn't hurt that many families were like mine with combatants on both sides. Now, even the United States Military has OFFICIALLY declared that soldiers who were in the Confederate Army or Navy were INDEED AMERICANS and their service as well as their deeds should be honored as those who fought on the side of the Union.

THE WAR IS OVER!!! Been over, and we don't need a bunch of rabble rousers trying to reignite it all over again. I do not support those that are trying to divide us. That is an age old tactic, DIVIDE AND CONQUER! Those that are working hard to divide us really want to conquer us by destroying our Great Republic. Do NOT fall for it! Our Founding Fathers, flawed as they were, knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote both the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and, less known or studied but more important, the Federalist Papers. Want to know how the Founding Fathers really felt about the 2nd. Amendment?? Read the Federalist Papers! It is ALL There. Want to know if your law maker is or is not doing their job? Read the Federalist Papers!! Want to know if your President has of has not over stepped their authority??? Read the Federalist Papers!!!
Seahawks4Ever
Legacy
 
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:56 pm

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:33 pm

If the South wants to start a Civil War over the removal of Confederate monuments, I welcome it. I will join to smash the South one more time and their attempt ressurrect that sick period of history and their attempt to enshrine fighting for slavery. This pretense that slavery wasn't the main issue of contention is historical hogwash. And this attempt by the South to keep symbols and monuments to Southern leaders that fought for slavery is just another veiled attempt to keep their racist philosophy alive and well. KKK and Neo-Nazis marching in those states is a prime example of the philosophy these monuments promote.

If you want a Civil War again, bring it. I despise the Confederate monuments and flag. I despise everything they stand for. The moral traitors that supported the South need to be expunged from the public eye. I agree with the poster that said it's like celebrating Hitler or other Nazi figures that fought on behalf of Germany's Nazi philosophy. The Southern folk supporting the confederacy fought to protect enslaving people, the only issue the North and South had major disagreements concerning. No one was trying to take away any part of the Southern Way of Life other than slavery. That needed to go long ago.

If you want to fight to protect symbols and statues of slavery protectors, we will fight again gladly to smash this rubbish once and for all.

If you really hate the KKK and Nazis, then you should understand what these monuments meant to ancestors of the enslaved folk. The entire South was the equivalent of the KKK or Nazis when the war was fought. They were enslaving people. They used a profession known as a slave breaker who was paid to break the SPIRIT of overly-spirited slaves (meaning slaves that didn't want to be enslaved). These Southern generals fought to maintain slavery, the turning of people into chattel and farm animals. These monuments need to go with maybe a few kept in a museum to show the stupidity of people even erecting monuments to the protectors of slavery.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:25 pm

Growing up in Edmonds the confederate flag didn't mean anything more to me than a cool car on a TV show, but now, living in the middle of it (the city I live in is having the debate right now about removing it's own monuments) and seeing the the flag flown so prominently beside the Nazi flag by the a-holes in those demonstrations dominating the news right now I've got to side with the friends I have at work that are offended by those flags and monuments and and living in so much greater fear now than they were before this last election.

It's great for me to say "well it doesn't mean that to me", but I didn't grow up black in the south and live through the struggles to gain equal rights, I don't think it up to me to make that judgement.
User avatar
c_hawkbob
Legacy
 
Posts: 3022
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:34 pm
Location: K-evil Kentucky, 42053

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby RiverDog » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:12 pm

The monuments and other symbols, like the Stars and Bars, do have a story to tell and I will resist any attempt to whitewash or sterilize our history, but they need to be displayed in their proper perspective at appropriate venues, like museums, cemeteries, and historical parks, places that are specifically designated for this purpose. Same goes for all other distasteful aspects of our history, such as the relocation and internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, the Trail of Tears, and so on. We do not want to suggest to others that our country wasn't, and certainly isn't today, home to a perfect society. Understanding what hate groups look like, how they were formed, their thought process, and so on, is essential if we are to expect our posterity to be educated enough to recognize them when they surface again in the future.

But I absolutely understand why people object to them being displayed in public parks and courthouses and support their prompt removal from such places. They should in no way be used as icons of our present day government.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Old but Slow » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:47 pm

It may be a point of pride for many, but for people of color it something else. It represents hate, slavery, lynchings, church burnings, and more. Wave the Stars and Bars (I don't like capitalizing that flag) in front of a group of those people and it is a threat and a challenge as if it were spoken.
Old but Slow
Legacy
 
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:05 pm
Location: Bellingham, WA 98225

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:26 am

I was torn about removing these statues until I saw first hand in Charlottesville the kind of utter POS that were most offended by it and now I say TAKE THEM DOWN!!!!!!
Put them in a museum so the skinheads and Nazis who want to worship a participation trophy house for losers and traitors can still get their chub on.
Put a statue of Chump in there too, he's a skinhead and neo Nazi sympathizer.
Hawktawk
Legacy
 
Posts: 2588
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby RiverDog » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:35 pm

Old but Slow wrote:It may be a point of pride for many, but for people of color it something else. It represents hate, slavery, lynchings, church burnings, and more. Wave the Stars and Bars (I don't like capitalizing that flag) in front of a group of those people and it is a threat and a challenge as if it were spoken.


The Stars and Bars represents an interesting dichotomy. It wasn't that long ago that the Confederate flag was considered to be inoffensive, and simply a symbol of the south and not necessarily of those despicable hate groups. It just represented run of the mill good ole boy rednecks, like from the Dukes of Hazard fame. For years, we saw truckers displaying it on the front of their grills, and I personally knew some that did, and never thought of them as being bigots. As a matter of fact, as recently as 1987, Arkansas governor Bill Clinton actually signed into law a bill honoring the flag, detailing that "the blue star above the word ‘ARKANSAS’ is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.” I'm no fan of Slick Willy's, but I sincerely doubt that he's a confederate flag waving racist.

I do agree with taking it down and relegating it to cemeteries, historical parks, and museums, but somewhere along the line, the meaning of it changed, and for the life of me, I can't figure out exactly when or how and would feel enlightened if someone could give me a rational explanation as to how we got to this current dilemma.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:07 pm

People wigging out over statues, while people from all over the world come together to help Houston and Texas recover from Harvey.
User avatar
Largent80
Legacy
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Location: Magnolia, Texas

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby RiverDog » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:06 pm

Largent80 wrote:People wigging out over statues, while people from all over the world come together to help Houston and Texas recover from Harvey.


Yea, that's just it. It's too bad that it takes a war, a natural disaster, or something truly life changing for us to realize how trivial we can all be from time to time.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Largent80 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:57 am

^^^True. But it is nice to see regardless. One of my best friends in Lake Stevens is adopting 2 displaced Houston dogs.

The fact that these statues were ever even erected is sad actually, but fighting over them is just ridiculous. Just get rid of all of them.
User avatar
Largent80
Legacy
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:38 pm
Location: Magnolia, Texas

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:33 am

Well, let's just hope that the goodwill displayed by our citizens during the immediate response to this tragedy carries over into the long term aftermath.

I'm growing a little weary of this monument debate. At some point, people need to quit worrying so damn much over a stupid piece of rock or piece of cloth and concentrate their efforts on more important things. At this point, all they're doing is giving these A-hole attention seeking white supremacists a rallying cry.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby rocket » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:34 pm

The law says that the Confederate soldiers be given the same attention and privileges as all other US soldiers.

Best change that first.
rocket
Legacy
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 pm

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:28 am

These monuments aren't of "soldiers'. That law was, rightly, intended to insure equal treatment and entitlements for all combatants after the war. there are none of those left. That law is not relevant to this situation.
User avatar
c_hawkbob
Legacy
 
Posts: 3022
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:34 pm
Location: K-evil Kentucky, 42053

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby Seahawkgal » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:47 am

I have a different take about all these monuments, etc.
Leave them alone while pointing out the facts that they were the 'LOSERS' of an awful war. Also point out what they were fighting for so we never forget the travesty of the Confederate's point of view. Kinda like the concentration camps in Europe staying up as museums and places for people to visit. It is not glorifying the Nazi regime at all. Quite the opposite IMO.
Unfortunately, slavery is a part of American history. It should never be erased to appease some agenda. It happened and it should never be forgotten so injustices never happen again.
Seahawkgal
Legacy
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:08 am

Re: Historical Monuments

Postby RiverDog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:28 pm

Seahawkgal wrote:I have a different take about all these monuments, etc.
Leave them alone while pointing out the facts that they were the 'LOSERS' of an awful war. Also point out what they were fighting for so we never forget the travesty of the Confederate's point of view. Kinda like the concentration camps in Europe staying up as museums and places for people to visit. It is not glorifying the Nazi regime at all. Quite the opposite IMO.
Unfortunately, slavery is a part of American history. It should never be erased to appease some agenda. It happened and it should never be forgotten so injustices never happen again.


Wow, someone actually agrees with me!

The only change I'd make is the same point that I've made earlier in this debate, that the statutes and monuments should be moved to a more appropriate place, like a cemetery or historical park, and not displayed in a public park or courthouse.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338


Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest