Las Vegas Killings

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Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:20 pm

Crap, more gun bullshit. The shooter had obtained a gun for $65,000
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:27 pm

What gun do you buy for $65,000? Did he obtain it illegally for that price?
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:26 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:What gun do you buy for $65,000? Did he obtain it illegally for that price?


If it cost that much, it was probably a fully automatic from pre-80s or something (the only kind that can be purchased legally, and they're *exorbitantly* expensive), and the purchaser is recorded and tracked as closely as they can possibly be.

In other words, there were no 'laws' that could have prevented this (but you watch- the GUN CONTROL NOW crowd will pretend like saying "THOSE R BANNED" is some magic wand that will make all of them vanish off the face of the earth).

Odd, though- he reportedly had a shtload of fertilizer in his car (or hotel room?), too, among many other things that I would have guessed would throw up about a thousand red flags to authorities.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:34 pm

Tinfoil hat crowd will say it's a false flag operation to push for more gun control and remove the 2nd amendment. We're one of the last bastions that allows citizens ownership of weapons. Tinfoil hat crowd thinks certain elements within our government are allowing these types of incidents occur pushing for them to be worse and worse until they finally accept Americans to accept disarmament.

Personally, I think it's just another insane nut looking to burn the world before he burns himself down or throws himself into the insane asylum. Once you're that crazy, you have nothing to lose and don't care anymore. You just want to hurt or kill a bunch of people for selfish, personal reasons beyond human comprehension.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:44 pm

Was wondering how long it would take people to politicize this ...
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby rocket » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:20 pm

I knew it... from the first sound, it's a belt fed medium machine gun. M240-B, there's a zillion of 'em out there, especially in Iraq and AfPak.

They cost 65K here cuz there are only a few transferable ones, and economics rules. I heard the asshat was loaded with coin, an accountant.
HOWEVER, there are two video snippets of him in a pussyhat at an anti-trump protest rally... the political lines are blurring.

Hi all... :)
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:08 pm

It was an automatic weapon. What a piece of garbage. Why ruin so many lives? What kind of hate did this idiot feel to do this?
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:35 am

This is the 20th mass shooting in 2 years, and this guy passed every background check when buying guns. I anyone thinks that's the best way to keep guns from these loons then they are delusional. The same words always seem to be uttered "he never showed any signs of this type of behavior" or some s*** like that. Criminals can get guns so easy but NEW criminals can just go buy them or take them from their parents or other owners.

I don't know what the answer is because when the word gun is uttered, the narrative goes bonkers politically. However it's so obvious that SOMETHING....Anything needs to be done.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby haxin jaxin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:26 am

This guy was intent on killing as many people as possible. If it wasn't with a gun, he could have easily gotten in a large truck and run people down in that same crowd killing just as many, if not more.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:40 am

haxin jaxin wrote:This guy was intent on killing as many people as possible. If it wasn't with a gun, he could have easily gotten in a large truck and run people down in that same crowd killing just as many, if not more.


No way that many people are not able to get out of the way of a truck once it's clear what he's doing. On a bridge maybe, but in an open area like that? Uh uh.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby haxin jaxin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:24 am

Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, here’s a pic of the dead perpetrator.

Warning: Graphic.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLOOEfaV4AA7ACc.jpg
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:21 pm

No interest in opening that pic.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:58 pm

I opened it and so what, he looks like the people he killed as a pussy,

Great 2nd amendment we have these days. Doesn't apply to the way the USA is now but is still allowed. And as long as it is allowed, expect this s*** to continue.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby RiverDog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:56 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:It was an automatic weapon. What a piece of garbage. Why ruin so many lives? What kind of hate did this idiot feel to do this?


Reports are that it wasn't a fully automatic weapon, it had what is called a bump stock, an attachment that allows for virtually fully automatic operation, which are legal under current US gun laws. Details are still a bit sketchy.

I try to think of the victims in a senseless act like this as freedom fighters, martyrs that gave their lives so we can enjoy the freedom of not living in a police state. I don't particularly care for the stampede of politicians that try to use these events to promote their own agendas.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:18 am

RiverDog wrote:Reports are that it wasn't a fully automatic weapon, it had what is called a bump stock, an attachment that allows for virtually fully automatic operation, which are legal under current US gun laws. Details are still a bit sketchy.

I try to think of the victims in a senseless act like this as freedom fighters, martyrs that gave their lives so we can enjoy the freedom of not living in a police state. I don't particularly care for the stampede of politicians that try to use these events to promote their own agendas.


I think of it as you can't control insane people. Norway, one of the model nations for peaceful Europe, had 70 children killed by a madman. Australia banned guns, they had additional mass killings with arsons. More people are killed in oppressive nations by their government. And more people are killed in car wrecks on a daily basis and I don't see people wanting to ban cars. Soon as someone shoots someone, suddenly 99.9999999999% responsible gun owners must suddenly give up responsible gun ownership to appease a certain segment of the group.

Yet these same left wing idiots get up in arms when right wing idiots want to ban Muslims when a terrorist act occurs. The inconsistency is incredibly annoying and stupid. If we banned all Muslims, we would reduce acts of terrorism by Muslims. But it's wrong because 99.99999999% of Muslims are law-abiding citizens looking to take care of their families.

It's astounding how many people are willing to give up their freedoms and the freedoms of others when something frightful or horrifying happens. It never seems to matter to them that the vast, vast, vast majority of people are not this way and are responsible, sensible people. All that matters is they think if they ban the persons or things, it will all stop. It's ridiculous. You can't stop crazy. Crazy finds a way to do evil. It's how it is.

I don't see a reasonable way to halt all this without infringing greatly upon our freedoms. Not just guns, but monitoring in general, including creating government agencies to closely monitor mental health risks. We would literally have to assess nearly all citizens, create criteria for mental health, and monitor people constantly. I don't think that is reasonable.

We can only do the best we can to prevent these things from happening. It will never be zero. Ever. Anywhere in the world for the most part.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:24 am

^^^^^^ Ummm, hopefully YOU don't own a gun. What does a liberal have to do with gun control?????

This kind of thinking is what divides this nation.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:03 pm

Largent80 wrote:^^^^^^ Ummm, hopefully YOU don't own a gun. What does a liberal have to do with gun control?????

This kind of thinking is what divides this nation.


We are divided and always will be. This ridiculous idea of unity will never occur. It was understood that it would never occur by the creators of The Constitution, and everyone that understands politics. It's literally taught in politics class that will never be unified. It's known as pluralism. A major part of the reason this nation has the political system it has it encourage this pluralism (different factions fighting for power) is to prevent tyranny or anyone from taking power. You want to know when you have unity in a nation? When you have a tyrannical leader with the power to kill anyone that disagrees with him or a similarly strict and rigid governmental system.

Division is necessary to a free nation. It is in fact a sign of a free nation. If we are ever unified, it will be because someone or group has taken power in a way that can quell all disagreement.

I don't want unity. I want respect for the way in which we decide things as long as those methods are consistent. That is more important than unity. Fight all you want, but respect the method by which we transfer and exchange political, financial, and social power. That is the way we keep the peace as much as we possibly can.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:44 pm

Fight all you want but don't take my guns is extremely laughable.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:34 pm

Largent80 wrote:Fight all you want but don't take my guns is extremely laughable.


What does that even mean? Do you write the majority of your posts while drunk or high?
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby RiverDog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:22 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I think of it as you can't control insane people. Norway, one of the model nations for peaceful Europe, had 70 children killed by a madman. Australia banned guns, they had additional mass killings with arsons. More people are killed in oppressive nations by their government. And more people are killed in car wrecks on a daily basis and I don't see people wanting to ban cars. Soon as someone shoots someone, suddenly 99.9999999999% responsible gun owners must suddenly give up responsible gun ownership to appease a certain segment of the group.

Yet these same left wing idiots get up in arms when right wing idiots want to ban Muslims when a terrorist act occurs. The inconsistency is incredibly annoying and stupid. If we banned all Muslims, we would reduce acts of terrorism by Muslims. But it's wrong because 99.99999999% of Muslims are law-abiding citizens looking to take care of their families.

It's astounding how many people are willing to give up their freedoms and the freedoms of others when something frightful or horrifying happens. It never seems to matter to them that the vast, vast, vast majority of people are not this way and are responsible, sensible people. All that matters is they think if they ban the persons or things, it will all stop. It's ridiculous. You can't stop crazy. Crazy finds a way to do evil. It's how it is.

I don't see a reasonable way to halt all this without infringing greatly upon our freedoms. Not just guns, but monitoring in general, including creating government agencies to closely monitor mental health risks. We would literally have to assess nearly all citizens, create criteria for mental health, and monitor people constantly. I don't think that is reasonable.

We can only do the best we can to prevent these things from happening. It will never be zero. Ever. Anywhere in the world for the most part.


I agree with most everything you said, although I think your percentages are a tad off.

I don't mind a few inconveniences, like taking my shoes off at the airport or walking through a metal detector at a football game, and I can support some gun control initiatives, such as the ban on assault weapons. But I have no desire to live in a police state where our every movement is tracked and recorded ala 1984. At the risk of sounding insensitive, I would rather accept random killings by a rouge lunatic than I would live in a communist-like country.

That's why I consider those that died as martyrs and heroes because in my mind, they gave their lives so we can enjoy the blessings of liberty. They are no less heroes than those that gave their lives on Omaha Beach and we should honor their sacrifice, and if I ever have the pleasure of meeting any of the victim's loved ones, I would express my sense of gratitude to them in that manner. I feel that thinking of it that way might help the families of the victims deal with the irrationality and senselessness of the deaths of their loved ones.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Old but Slow » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:17 pm

The NRA has lost its sense of direction. In my youth I took a gun safety class from them, and learned basic gun handling. And, after, my father bought me a 12 gauge shotgun, and a 22 rifle. I learned to take care of them and treat them right. They were both stolen from me. I was naive.

A few years ago, the NRA was screaming that Obama wanted to take our guns away, and gun sales went way up. Did Obama attempt to take our guns away? No evidence of that, but the gun lobby made a bundle.

Any attempt to temper the debate, by more strongly regulating military style weapons with no purpose beyond a personal rush or killing people, is immediately confronted as an attempt to take our guns. Outlawing large ammo clips should not be an unreasonable position, but the NRA acts as though it is a threat to freedom.

I own weapons. Hunting stuff, a 12 gauge, a 30-06 rifle for elk, and a .32 pistol. They were my father's, all made in the 19teens. I prize them, and have no desire to shoot, really, although I would with the right encouragement. I hunted when I was in my teens or early 20's.

OK, I'm rambling here, but I will end by saying that we don't threaten out freedom or our rights by making sensible adjustment to the gun laws. The 2d amendment does not address regulation, and that does not mean that regulation is not allowed.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:45 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 9291b6b24a

I can support some gun control initiatives, such as the ban on assault weapons.


Same, but what's an "assault weapon", and how does it differ from a semi-auto hunting rifle in a way that makes it more dangerous (and therefore more deserving of a ban)?

Any attempt to temper the debate, by more strongly regulating military style weapons with no purpose beyond a personal rush or killing people, is immediately confronted as an attempt to take our guns.


Same question: what's a "military style weapon" and why should I be more concerned about them than my neighbor's .30-06?

Re: large clips: see my link above.

Re: "Obama wants to take our guns!": agree it was mostly dumb, but he (and most others) don't help themselves when they continually mention Australia as a model.

I will end by saying that we don't threaten out freedom or our rights by making sensible adjustment to the gun laws.


Agree, but too many people think their being in favor of a measure automatically makes it sensible.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:59 am

[quote="Aseahawkfan"[/quote]

What does that even mean? Do you write the majority of your posts while drunk or high?[/quote]

Does this appear to be a drunk post to your eye?

his is the 20th mass shooting in 2 years, and this guy passed every background check when buying guns. I anyone thinks that's the best way to keep guns from these loons then they are delusional. The same words always seem to be uttered "he never showed any signs of this type of behavior" or some s*** like that. Criminals can get guns so easy but NEW criminals can just go buy them or take them from their parents or other owners.

I don't know what the answer is because when the word gun is uttered, the narrative goes bonkers politically. However it's so obvious that SOMETHING....Anything needs to be done.

Quit propping yourself up on a pedestal dude. These people that do these crimes show zero mental problems. But one thing they do have in common is that they can go purchase the instruments that they need to do their deeds. THAT is the problem and until people realize there is no way to perceive mental illness, especially with no documented illness, the ability to get guns this easily will just lead to more of this. It's already been proven MULTIPLE times. Blaming liberals is the most ignorant statement ever uttered.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:29 am

I don't know what the answer is...


Nobody does, but that's kinda the million dollar question.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle and just make all guns disappear.

...when the word gun is uttered, the narrative goes bonkers politically.


That's because I truly can't remember the last time anything was proposed in the aftermath of a tragedy like this that would have kept the tragedy from happening**.

**Except maybe banning those bump stocks. They're clearly meant to get around the ban on full-auto, and it seems like confiscating them would be within the realm of the possible.

the ability to get guns this easily will just lead to more of this.


I mean this sincerely: go purchase an AR-15.

You'll find the process is anything but "easy".
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Seahawkgal » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:29 pm

I shouldn't really be saying too much here, because I don't handle guns nor do I buy them.
Having said that, I live in a household with guns. The men in my household are avid hunters. We rely on Venison every year and have loads of it in our freezer. My husband is the one that should be typing this actually. lol.
Last evening he said to me that no automatic weapon should be allowed to anyone that is not a cop or a soldier. They are made to mass kill. He even said that whatever is used(can't remember what it is called but it was the same thing the psycho in Vegas used to alter his guns) needs to be illegal. PERIOD. He also said that gun shops should not be allowed to purchase and sell automatic weapons EVER.
He is a supporter of the 2nd amendment but was very firm about what I just typed.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:55 pm

Your husband isn't wrong about bump stocks, gal, and even the NRA agrees:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10 ... oting.html
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:26 pm

I am a gun owner and used to be a paying member of the NRA. They lost me when it became evident that they were more about supporting gun manufacturers and a PAC than about supporting responsible gun owners. (If that's what you want anymore I'd suggest the Civilian Marksmanship Program)

I'm all for large caliber and high power weapons, if your out hunting and are confronted by a bear or a charging moose the is no substitute for knockdown power ... but I'ts my opinion that anything that operates automatically or has a clip capacity over 10 rounds is of questionable use for anything but trying to look like a badazz to your buddies or for mass killings. You don't need a 30 shot clip to shoot a dear.

I would support legislation to that effect.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby RiverDog » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:51 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I am a gun owner and used to be a paying member of the NRA. They lost me when it became evident that they were more about supporting gun manufacturers and a PAC than about supporting responsible gun owners. (If that's what you want anymore I'd suggest the Civilian Marksmanship Program)

I'm all for large caliber and high power weapons, if your out hunting and are confronted by a bear or a charging moose the is no substitute for knockdown power ... but I'ts my opinion that anything that operates automatically or has a clip capacity over 10 rounds is of questionable use for anything but trying to look like a badazz to your buddies or for mass killings. You don't need a 30 shot clip to shoot a dear.

I would support legislation to that effect.


Agreed, and will add to your remarks that you don't need a 30 shot clip for self defense, either.

As far as legislation is concerned, there's already a ban on fully automatic weapons. The current debate is over what's called a bump stock, an attachment that turns a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic one, which is the loophole the LV shooter was able to take advantage of, and like you, I support legislation to ban that kind of device.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:46 pm

I don't much look at the 2nd Amendment rights as there for hunting and just small scale self-defense. The 2nd Amendment was created to arm the populace if it should become necessary for them to act in a military fashion against a tyrannical force foreign or domestic. That does require a high capacity clip. If enough Americans have reached a point where they don't believe that we require an armed populace as a deterrent to government tyranny, then so be it. It was inevitable that they follow the path of past over-sized nations losing their zeal for liberty and defense of it wanting instead for the care of a large and powerful government. I do not share that belief. I do not trust our government. I believe the 2nd Amendment including allowing the citizenry to be armed with military style weapons, specifically small arms like those possessed by an infantry soldier, is necessary to ensuring a free nation.

This idea that gun ownership was tied to entertainment or hunting is a misunderstanding of the Constitution's intended purpose to act as a check and balance on power. The 2nd Amendment is so high on that list because the men of that time knew quite well you have very little power if you cannot back it up with force. I'm not much willing to give up that check and balance at this point. The world is not a shiny, happy place.

I personally wish we would move to Switzerland's model of requiring military service and ownership of personal weapons for defense of the nation. It's unfortunate we have so many mad men that they will cause this nation to give up one of their most important freedoms due to fear.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:53 pm

Largent80 wrote:What does that even mean? Do you write the majority of your posts while drunk or high?


Does this appear to be a drunk post to your eye?

his is the 20th mass shooting in 2 years, and this guy passed every background check when buying guns. I anyone thinks that's the best way to keep guns from these loons then they are delusional. The same words always seem to be uttered "he never showed any signs of this type of behavior" or some s*** like that. Criminals can get guns so easy but NEW criminals can just go buy them or take them from their parents or other owners.

I don't know what the answer is because when the word gun is uttered, the narrative goes bonkers politically. However it's so obvious that SOMETHING....Anything needs to be done.

Quit propping yourself up on a pedestal dude. These people that do these crimes show zero mental problems. But one thing they do have in common is that they can go purchase the instruments that they need to do their deeds. THAT is the problem and until people realize there is no way to perceive mental illness, especially with no documented illness, the ability to get guns this easily will just lead to more of this. It's already been proven MULTIPLE times. Blaming liberals is the most ignorant statement ever uttered.[/quote]

Once again I must ask, do you write this when drunk or high? No one is propping anyone up on a pedestal. Don't even know what you're rambling about.

Yes. it is the 20th mass shooting. Once again we're going through this same crap. The vast majority of responsible gun owners have done nothing wrong, suddenly you want to ban or take something of theirs away because of these psychopaths.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:56 pm

Old but Slow wrote:The NRA has lost its sense of direction. In my youth I took a gun safety class from them, and learned basic gun handling. And, after, my father bought me a 12 gauge shotgun, and a 22 rifle. I learned to take care of them and treat them right. They were both stolen from me. I was naive.

A few years ago, the NRA was screaming that Obama wanted to take our guns away, and gun sales went way up. Did Obama attempt to take our guns away? No evidence of that, but the gun lobby made a bundle.

Any attempt to temper the debate, by more strongly regulating military style weapons with no purpose beyond a personal rush or killing people, is immediately confronted as an attempt to take our guns. Outlawing large ammo clips should not be an unreasonable position, but the NRA acts as though it is a threat to freedom.

I own weapons. Hunting stuff, a 12 gauge, a 30-06 rifle for elk, and a .32 pistol. They were my father's, all made in the 19teens. I prize them, and have no desire to shoot, really, although I would with the right encouragement. I hunted when I was in my teens or early 20's.

OK, I'm rambling here, but I will end by saying that we don't threaten out freedom or our rights by making sensible adjustment to the gun laws. The 2d amendment does not address regulation, and that does not mean that regulation is not allowed.


We could say regulation isn't included for any amendment. Not the best argument.

Though I do wish we would move to a gun ownership model requiring militia membership and required training. Citizens should be required to defend their liberty and part of that requirement be training to do so.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:59 pm

If you want to talk about original intent the 2nd amendment was intended to allow small townships rural communities to maintain a "well regulated militia" so that they may defend themselves as it could take a very long time in those days for a protective response from the federal government. Not to arm individuals with enough weaponry to wipe out small townships and rural communities.

This "misunderstanding" of the constitution, as you put it, is every bit as much yours as the other side of the argument's.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:11 am

Agreed, and will add to your remarks that you don't need a 30 shot clip for self defense, either.


The fight over high-capacity mags isn't a hill I'd choose to die on, but see my WaPo link above- banning them, while superficially reasonable, would be mostly meaningless. Three 10-round magazines is practically no different than a 30-round mag- they can be changed out so quickly that you'd almost have to have a stopwatch to perceive the difference in a situation where someone is trying to get off as many shots as they can.

Of course, in a more sane time, that would mean that the 'pro-2A' crowd wouldn't be married to resisting that regulation, but the slippery slope rightfully rears its head. You *should* have to defend why you want to regulate it before anyone should have to argue why you shouldn't.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby RiverDog » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:39 pm

burrrton wrote:The fight over high-capacity mags isn't a hill I'd choose to die on, but see my WaPo link above- banning them, while superficially reasonable, would be mostly meaningless. Three 10-round magazines is practically no different than a 30-round mag- they can be changed out so quickly that you'd almost have to have a stopwatch to perceive the difference in a situation where someone is trying to get off as many shots as they can.

Of course, in a more sane time, that would mean that the 'pro-2A' crowd wouldn't be married to resisting that regulation, but the slippery slope rightfully rears its head. You *should* have to defend why you want to regulate it before anyone should have to argue why you shouldn't.


I understand that there's not much effective difference between a 30 round clip and 3-10 round clips. I was simply tagging on my own comment to Cbob's thought about that type of weaponry not being necessary for hunting.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Largent80 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:13 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:If you want to talk about original intent the 2nd amendment was intended to allow small townships rural communities to maintain a "well regulated militia" so that they may defend themselves as it could take a very long time in those days for a protective response from the federal government. Not to arm individuals with enough weaponry to wipe out small townships and rural communities.

This "misunderstanding" of the constitution, as you put it, is every bit as much yours as the other side of the argument's.


Thank you. Finally someone with a sane response. Actually part of that amendment was because of slavery.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:34 pm

Not to arm individuals with enough weaponry to wipe out small townships and rural communities.


I'm no Constitutional lawyer, but the Supreme Court has almost without exception disagreed with this.

In short, the prefatory clause (the part mentioning "militia") doesn't limit the operative clause ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed")- it merely announces a purpose.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby RiverDog » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:41 am

Largent80 wrote:Thank you. Finally someone with a sane response. Actually part of that amendment was because of slavery.


I hadn't heard that one, nor any other amendments in the Bill of Rights as having slavery as one of its justifications. Do you have a source? It's not that I don't believe you, just that I'd be interested in that interpretation.

I've heard two basic motivations for the 2nd, one was so that they could raise an army quickly to repel an enemy and the other was a concern about an oppressive government, that they did not want to take away from the citizens their ability to revolt.

I'm not sure how relevant the forefather's concerns back in the 18th century is to our society in the 21st. All they had available to them was single shot mussel loaded muskets, nor did they have a standing army like we do now. Had assault weapons been available to them and had they been gifted with the world's strongest military like we are today, they may have crafted an entirely different looking set of amendments. That doesn't mean that I want to do away with the 2nd or any of the other amendments, just that they should be justified on the basis of 21st century concerns and not of those 250 years ago.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:58 am

I'm not sure how relevant the forefather's concerns back in the 18th century is to our society in the 21st. All they had available to them was single shot mussel loaded muskets, nor did they have a standing army like we do now.


They couldn't have anticipated the internet, social media, and cable television, either, but I doubt that would have weakened their resolve on free speech and a free press.

I think reasonable people can discuss reasonable limitations on what weaponry the citizenry is allowed to own (although neither side seems capable of being reasonable right now), but (I'm not the first to say this) saying the 2A only applies to muskets is like saying the 1A only applies to printing presses.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:50 am

As soon as I saw this horror unfolding I knew from the sound of the weapons there were mass casualties. I also knew the predictable debate or rather political s*** show that was coming.
The left wants the NRA labeled as a terrorist organization. The gun nuts think its perfectly fine to own 50 assault weapons and thousands of rounds, silencers, 100 round banana clips etc. They don't favor background checks at gun shows or any sort of national database.

As a conservative from eastern washington I'm very familiar with guns, have hunted many times. I also carried a weapon for protection for a period of time due to a very unstable former employee with a history of violence who threatened me upon being terminated.
So I see the sport side and I see the self defense side. I believe in the right to own firearms. But you can't tell me there aren't some common sense things that can be done.

Start with certain medications requiring a review of a gun owner's status. It is rumored that this guy was on psycho active anti depressants and a lot of these guys are.If that means my bipolar meds disqualify me from purchasing a firearm then so be it.
Regulate the sale of assault style semi autos, at a minimum limit the amount a single individual can purchase without a dealers license and additional scrutiny. Absolutely ban clips with high rounds capacity. Ban bump stocks.
Offer generous buybacks for banned items but do not grandfather them in. Persons caught with them in their possession after the ban go to jail.Give life terms for murder to anyone who illegally helps someone get a firearm they commit murder with such as the guy in San Bernardino. This would help in Chicago and other large cities too where most guns are stolen or bought on the black market. Boost penalties for gun crime to the highest level possible, including drive by shootings and brandishing a weapon to intimidate.Give felons life for having one at all.
Last but not least. Media STFU!!!! WAY TOO MUCH COVERAGE!!!! when we are hearing automatic weapons fire on the news 6 days later it's a snuff film for ratings alone. It is disgusting and the detail revealed about the shooters actions simply provides a roadmap for the next nut job to commit even more carnage...Politicians too, quit grandstanding and act for the nation.

I think these things would help. The ACLU wouldnt like it but I don't think the victims of all these shootings liked it much either.
This old redneck thinks its time for some common sense changes.Guns haven't really changed but people have for the worse and its no longer a defense of the status quo.
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Re: Las Vegas Killings

Postby burrrton » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:33 pm

They don't favor background checks at gun shows


There's no such thing as a "gun show loophole", ht. The same laws are in force at gun shows as are any other time a gun is purchased.

Not talking about you necessarily, but when people keep repeating nonsense like this, it only serves to steel the other side, because they realize they're dealing with people who either don't know what they're talking about or are blindly parroting talking points.

Regulate the sale of assault style semi autos, at a minimum limit the amount a single individual can purchase without a dealers license and additional scrutiny. Absolutely ban clips with high rounds capacity.


Re: high-capacity clips- see my post above.

Re: "assault style semi-autos"- tell me the functional difference(s) between an "assault" semi-auto and a regular semi-auto making them inherently more dangerous.

Ban bump stocks.


Agree there.
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