New Tax Bill Released today

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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:27 pm

Now I"m reading they want to use grants and leave medical/medicare more to the states according to demand within the state. As usual it's always a zero sum game with the liberal media and Democrats as they stoke class warfare to try to get their way. If you give tax cuts to the rich, the poor will suffer. There are other ways to administer these programs and maybe we need to try some of them that will save us money and increase competition. You ever read those stories about the government paying a $100 for a hammer that costs $12? That's what happens when you don't have anyone in the government looking to make these plans cost effective. Instead it's pay whatever the insurer is asking and just keep taxing more and more rather than, "we have a lot of business to give. What kind of deal you willing to give us for all that business?"

The Republicans as usual are not cutting without a plan in place to provide service. It's a plan that involves more state involvement and block grants to medical services rather than a centrally administered one size fits all plan.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:20 pm

Largent80 wrote:Gawd dude, you are living in a dream world. I have no idea what Rump has done to you but I'm still guessing since you chose to not answer your yearly income that you are ecxstatic about your taxes based on your income. You sidestepped the question just like Huckabee-Sanders does.

That isn't good for America dude. You have a guy that skipped out on military service as your president, meanwhile, I served in Vietnam and came home alive. You elected a COWARD. Did you serve?..whats your status? I was shot at by viet kong serving my country and now I have a cowardly lion that would piss himself and is in charge of making decisions on my future. BLECH.

It's a sorry viewpoint and constant defending of this president that is just deplorable. Congrats. You got your perfect storm, enjoy it's brief tenure. And the 75,000 idiots in poor states for believing this narrcissistic jackwad and electing him. They deserve all they get, although probably NOT smart enough to know the difference.


I chose not to answer this right away becuase if I did I think you would devolve further into personal attacks and you just got back to the shack so I didn't want to see you go again. I actually like some of your Seahawk Posts.

Most people on this forum know that I am a vet. Served in the 9th infantry, 82nd airborne and three Special Forces groups as a fully Q qualified, tab wearing, full flash Green Beret. I then served for an additional 9 years for one of those three letter agencies and was the first person assigned in Kahzakstan and first permanently assigned person in Kiev. Please do not question my bona fides again.

Everyone knows that you don't have to be a Vet to be POTUS. In fact, this whole government is setup to be civilian control over the government. Past generals who have served as POTUS is usually after a war where we needed the leadership but it always goes back to non-military after the tension has simmered down. Serving this government comes in many forms and I'm very happy he is sharing his expertise with the people at this time. Yes, I'm deplorable and proud of it. That said, I don't have to devolve into name calling and trying to shame you into my way of thinking even though you seem to think that is the way to "get your way". I choose to not participate in that.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:17 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:You did if the cost of living rose by 8%.


Ok, you want to get away from static analysis, too? Good.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:06 am

idhawkman wrote:I chose not to answer this right away becuase if I did I think you would devolve further into personal attacks and you just got back to the shack so I didn't want to see you go again. I actually like some of your Seahawk Posts.

Most people on this forum know that I am a vet. Served in the 9th infantry, 82nd airborne and three Special Forces groups as a fully Q qualified, tab wearing, full flash Green Beret. I then served for an additional 9 years for one of those three letter agencies and was the first person assigned in Kahzakstan and first permanently assigned person in Kiev. Please do not question my bona fides again.

Everyone knows that you don't have to be a Vet to be POTUS. In fact, this whole government is setup to be civilian control over the government. Past generals who have served as POTUS is usually after a war where we needed the leadership but it always goes back to non-military after the tension has simmered down. Serving this government comes in many forms and I'm very happy he is sharing his expertise with the people at this time. Yes, I'm deplorable and proud of it. That said, I don't have to devolve into name calling and trying to shame you into my way of thinking even though you seem to think that is the way to "get your way". I choose to not participate in that.


Just goes to show how much of the reason the liberals hate Trump and his supporters. They are just like him, save on the other side. Casting insults and aspersions at the drop of a hat. Whole reason Trump was elected was because of liberals like Largent and Seahawks4ever that spend all their time insulting conservative people that believe in religion, personal responsibility, being self-made and self-sufficient, and honestly respecting both the benefits and responsibilities of freedom which very much include lower taxation for everyone as well as not having to take care of addicts and those that make bad decisions regardless of how they came up. I get so tired of having to cater to the poor. I've been around poor people all my life. A lot of them vice ridden, poor decision making, not wanting to do for themselves by learning to invest or manage money well people that want handouts taken from the "rich" they envy as they try to paint them all as part of the lucky sperm club no matter how often you show them that intelligent, conservative management of money and avoiding vice and other unhealthy behaviors can very much lead to a good life without government intervention. But of course the poor want to blame someone for their situation to make themselves feel better for the consequences of poor life choices.

I grew up poor. Came from a poor family. Every one of my uncles and aunts rose up from those circumstances through hard work and intelligent management of money to the point they could retire comfortably. If you studied my family, not a damn one of them got a break, not from the government or anyone else. I'm supposed to feel sympathy for people that would rather buy a pack of cigarettes than a book. I don't feel I should have to pay for them. Never have. I worked at a crappy 7/11 working my way through school paying my tuition out of pocket watching these poor people and their vice ridden behaviors. Many of the poor women couldn't keep their legs closed and every new child was added to the welfare system. They didn't want to learn to invest, it scared them. They spent time watching TV and other garbage behaviors. No sense of personal responsibility or want for self-improvement. Yet I'm to be punished for their choices with higher taxes and a party constantly driving class warfare as though the only people investing are millionaires and billionaires rather than some of us working folk that just want to manage our money well. And we do benefit from these types of tax breaks.

I may not agree with you on how our military is used as I see that as us acting as the world police which in essence is military welfare for the rest of the world as well as a immoral and unjust way to use a volunteer military whose primary purpose should be national defense, but we're in agreement on many things. I know it took a damn determined type of man to do what you did in the military. You don't make it as a Green Beret without a whole lot of desire to do so. I can respect that.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:22 am

burrrton wrote:
Ok, you want to get away from static analysis, too? Good.


No, I want to get away from hiding behind technicalities. Which is why I referred to is as a technicality in the first place.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:03 am

c_hawkbob wrote:No, I want to get away from hiding behind technicalities. Which is why I referred to is as a technicality in the first place.


Static analysis is the technicality- behaviors change.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:18 am

Aseahawkfan wrote: I know it took a damn determined type of man to do what you did in the military. You don't make it as a Green Beret without a whole lot of desire to do so. I can respect that.


Thank you, Asea. I appreciate the recognition.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:10 am

c_hawkbob wrote:Well you are wrong. That is the exact proposal that Senate Republicans put on the floor. It just hasn't been hammered out to mesh with the House proposal yet.


OK, I suppose you can call the Senate version a proposal if you want to get picky, but all it really amounts to is a starting point in negotiations between them and the House. There is no final bill on the table, and as I said, lots of things get thrown around, many of them never seeing the light of day on a floor vote.

Social Security and Medicare are a house of cards in their current configuration. It's either going to take a major tax increase or major cuts in benefits to sustain them. A person is frigging nuts if they think that SS and Medicare is going to support them in their retirement. If you are planning on SS being anything more than a third of your income when you hit the rocking chair, you're a fool. And Medicare is paying for less and less even without any cuts, so you'd better damn well plan on spending a healthy sum of that retirement income on a good Medicare supplement insurance no matter which party is calling the shots.

I'm surprised that they haven't raised the minimum Medicare age to 67 like they have Social Security, and I'm surprised that they haven't cut back or eliminated the early SS retirement. They could do stuff like that which would prolong the life of both programs without a tax increase or a reduction of benefits for those that are already on or soon to be on them and give enough time to younger workers to make alternate plans.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:32 am

Social Security and Medicare are a house of cards in their current configuration. It's either going to take a major tax increase or major cuts in benefits to sustain them.


Exactly. The question isn't whether you want to modify them or not- the question is whether you want to keep them or not.

As currently configured, they *are* going away. Period. Full stop.

Support politicians who will be honest with you about that and who suggest reasonable steps to make them sustainable again.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:26 pm

Social Security and Medicare are a house of cards in their current configuration. It's either going to take a major tax increase or major cuts in benefits to sustain them.
burrrton wrote:
Exactly. The question isn't whether you want to modify them or not- the question is whether you want to keep them or not.

As currently configured, they *are* going away. Period. Full stop.

Support politicians who will be honest with you about that and who suggest reasonable steps to make them sustainable again.


You guys are freakin' people out whose only retirement plan is SS and Medicare. You are right about them but that doesn't matter to them. They want to follow the flute player out of town and into the river. Politicians today are playing all of us a song and most people don't want to wake up to it.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:18 pm

idhawkman wrote:You guys are freakin' people out whose only retirement plan is SS and Medicare. You are right about them but that doesn't matter to them. They want to follow the flute player out of town and into the river. Politicians today are playing all of us a song and most people don't want to wake up to it.


You'd be shocked to know how many well educated Millennials are without a clue when it comes to retirement planning. I've seen couples with no kids and two well paying jobs not contributing enough to their 401K to even get the maximum company match, which is a paltry 6%. Everyone needs to be contributing 15% to a 401K or IRA. Not only will SS and Medicare not there, pensions and other "legacy" programs like retiree health plans are going away, too. Older established companies like Ford and GM can't compete with the Hondas and Toyotas that don't have the same legacy costs.

Basically people are going to have to learn to plan for their own retirement...and of course, most of them won't, so 30-40 years from now you're going to have an even greater stratification of classes than we have today, with those smart enough to save living on golf courses and those that have this insatiable urge for instant gratification working until they're well into their 70's.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:51 pm

RiverDog wrote:those that have this insatiable urge for instant gratification working until they're well into their 70's.


I disagree. I don't think they'll work until they're in their 70s. I think they will have to work until they die. They will never be able to "retire". I would estimate about 75% of people 45 years old or younger will not be able to retire in their life - ever.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:11 pm

They will vote in greater tax increases to pay for the old before they allow any of this to happen. Social Security and Medicare will be modified to continue. Too many people rely on them for them to disappear even with good retirement planning. As long as people have the power to vote, they can make change. Just as we've learned historically, let too many of your people become poor, disenfranchised, and starving, you will create a very violent, crime-ridden environment that will not be pleasant to live in. If my options are higher taxes or that type of environment that spawned things Nazi Germany, Communism, and general class revolution, I'll take the higher taxes as much as I would hate it. There are far worse ways to live than how parts of Europe live.

Though a darker idea that many don't think about as they further ignore the coming reality is that humans will slowly be managed by robots. Corporations are building robots for everything. Defense robots are becoming more and more a reality. It may be that by the time humans realize social security and medicare are done and decide to try to rise up, robots will be putting them down in large numbers with weapons paid for by their tax dollars because they've been asleep at the wheel for so long. A smaller mechanized military and police run by a small number of humans for repair as well as the advancement of A.I. such as Nvidia is putting out for management of information is moving forward. Once humans can use robots for managing life, large numbers of humans become less necessary and in fact a problem. Humans are notoriously difficult to manage given how they lack simple logic. They over-complicate a great deal of life, manage their lives based on unprovable, emotionally driven belief systems, and producing food is far less efficient than producing electricity for a robot workforce. Robots can do things like go to Mars or explore the universe whereas creating technology that stabilizes a biological lifeform in a hostile environment increases the costs of exploration and colonization. It will be interesting to see at the beginning of the robot age what kind of decisions humans will make as they advance their ability to create artificial life. It's too bad I won't be around to see it as is a long ways off.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:30 pm

idhawkman wrote:I disagree. I don't think they'll work until they're in their 70s. I think they will have to work until they die. They will never be able to "retire". I would estimate about 75% of people 45 years old or younger will not be able to retire in their life - ever.


I doubt that you'll see 75% working for the rest of their lives for the simple fact that their health won't permit it in enough occupations to reach those kind of numbers. There's just X number of jobs handing out samples at Costco or welcomers at WalMart.

ASF, I simply don't see people voting themselves a tax increase large enough that would allow SS and Medicare as we know it today to survive. All I can see is continued cuts in services, who can get on it and when, and what it will cover, to a point when it becomes so irrelevant that it dies under its own weight.
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