New Tax Bill Released today

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New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 am

Well, today is the day we see who has enough pull in D.C. to get loopholes put back into the tax bill reform.

Dems are bashing it already saying that the one day delay was proof of disarray in the Republican party, but if they came out with it yesterday they would have said they were insensitive to the victims in NY. So this is expected.

Repubs are stating that everyone gets a tax break but we'll have to wait and see if that is actually true when the details are released.

Stay tuned...
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:03 am

So far, here's what is in the tax bill:

No chanes to 401(k), IRA plans
20% Corporate tax rate is permanent
Repeal alternative minimum tax credit
Double standard deduction
Create new family tax credit (I don't even know what that means but I'm sure Ivanka had something to do with this)
Tax brackets: 0%, 12%, 25%, 35%, 39.6% (So instead of 3 brackets there's 5 and the top rate didn't change. Need to know income levels for each though)
Allow State and local property tax deductions up to $10,000 (that's a compromise for states like NY, Mass, CA, etc who tax their people at a high rate)
Double the exemption for estate tax on inherited assets and total repeal of estate tax after 6 years.
Immediate expensing of new equipment by U.S. Businesses
Small Businesses can write off loan interest (the question is, what level of income qualifies as "small business")
Repatriation of overseas funds set at 5%. (this is going to be huge. Trillions of dollars are going to come flooding back into the U.S. at that rate. All I have to say is "get it while you can because that won't last for long.")
Mortgage tax deduction only applies to new mortgages (refinance now before this goes into effect.)

Market was down 70points but is now off only 3 after this news. Still needs to see details of some of the brackets, etc.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:11 am

So far, they are explaining the family tax credit as a tax credit increase from $1,000 to $1,600 for those who are caring for elderly or "non-child" dependants in the home. Tax credits are different than a tax deduction.

Also, the top tax rate goes from $400k now to people making over $1M
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:07 am

Update:

Proposed Tax Bracket info:

number below are individual/couple
$0 to $45k/$90k = 12% Bracket
$45,001/$90,001 to $200k/$260k = 25% Bracket
$200,001/$260,001 to $500k/$1M = 35% Bracket
$500,001/$1,000,001 and above = 39.6% Bracket

Edited: So the standard deduction is $12,000/$24,000
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:50 am

I wish the 75 thousand page tax code would be changed to a 3-line flier:

(1) What did you make last year?
(2) Subtract $50K from (1)
(3) Multiply (2) by 0.25 and send it in
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:41 am

burrrton wrote:I wish the 75 thousand page tax code would be changed to a 3-line flier:

(1) What did you make last year?
(2) Subtract $50K from (1)
(3) Multiply (2) by 0.25 and send it in


I'd rather see them abolish the income tax and go to some form of consumption tax, let the states collect it, and do away with the IRS. But that won't happen in my lifetime.

But I am relieved that they left the 401K provisions alone. With pensions fading away and social security becoming less and less significant, 401K's are going to, or at least in my case have already become, the primary means of providing for one's retirement.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:17 am

burrrton wrote:I wish the 75 thousand page tax code would be changed to a 3-line flier:

(1) What did you make last year?
(2) Subtract $50K from (1)
(3) Multiply (2) by 0.25 and send it in

Too many powerful lobbyist to have this happen. Mortgage deduction, state/local tax deduction are two that will definitely find a compromise on the new plan. Hopefully the standard deduction elimates having to itemize for many Americans.
RiverDog wrote:
I'd rather see them abolish the income tax and go to some form of consumption tax, let the states collect it, and do away with the IRS. But that won't happen in my lifetime.


Too many people would claim that is a regressive tax and too big of a burden on the lower income earners.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:48 am

idhawkman wrote:Too many people would claim that is a regressive tax and too big of a burden on the lower income earners.


There's ways around it being a burden to low income people. There's more here if you're interested:

https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:10 am

Mortgage deduction, state/local tax deduction are two that will definitely find a compromise on the new plan.


I'm ambivalent on the mortgage deduction, but I have no idea how anyone defends the state/local tax deduction on a moral level.

Asking people in Washington to subsidize people living in Oregon and California is preposterous.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:22 am

idhawkman wrote:Too many people would claim that is a regressive tax and too big of a burden on the lower income earners.


No, forcing corporations, churches and billionaires to pay the same rate of taxes as everyone else with a loophole free sales tax would significantly lower the tax burden on all of us.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:32 am

c_hawkbob wrote:No, forcing corporations, churches and billionaires to pay the same rate of taxes as everyone else with a loophole free sales tax would significantly lower the tax burden on all of us.


Re: Corporations: who do you think pays corporate taxes?

Re: Churches: agree.

Re: Billionaires: there is no 'billionaire loophole' on income tax- it's taxed just like everyone else's income. Are you referring to taxing *wealth* in addition??
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:03 am

burrrton wrote:
Re: Corporations: who do you think pays corporate taxes?


corporations do not pay the same taxes as everyone else, they get ridiculous tax breaks in the name of "boosting" economies both local and National. It's the "trickle down" con.

burrrton wrote:
Re: Billionaires: rich people pay the same tax on their income everyone else does (actually much more). Are you arguing for taxing *wealth* every year or what??


Only stupid rich people (or those that are true patriots) pay taxes. They hide their true incomes in capitol gains and corporate profits and pay themselves a salary that's a small percentage of their real world income to pay taxes on. Putting all of the taxes on sales would eliminate all that BS.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:44 am

Only stupid rich people (or those that are true patriots) pay taxes.


There must be a sh*tload of stupid and/or patriotic rich people, then. They cover the vast majority of this country's tax burden.

Putting all of the taxes on sales would eliminate all that BS.


I'm not against that, but generally speaking, capital gains and such are paid on money that's both already been taxed and is at risk to some degree- they're not taxed at a lower rate out of the kindness of Congress' heart.

I don't know what you're retiring on, but I like my 401k doing well.

corporations do not pay the same taxes as everyone else


"They" don't pay *any* taxes, really, because "Exxon" doesn't draw a paycheck and buy itself a new Ferrari- it's nothing more than another business expense that comes out of employees' and customers' pockets like every other business expense.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:20 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:corporations do not pay the same taxes as everyone else, they get ridiculous tax breaks in the name of "boosting" economies both local and National. It's the "trickle down" con.


In a worldwide marketplace, many of those corporations need large tax breaks in order to keep them from taking their business overseas and/or competing with companies that are heavily subsidized by their own governments, so by taxing the hell out of them, we are in many cases cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Besides, public corporations plow their profits back to their stockholders which, in addition to those obscene billionaire fat cats that so many of us consider to be the root of all evil, are also comprised of ordinary middle class citizens through mutual funds, 401K's, etc.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:23 pm

As long as corporate execs are making seven figures and CEOs eight I ain't buying corporate welfare as just a cost of doing business. We are the #1 consumer market in the world, we don't need to offer incentives to do business here.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:37 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:As long as corporate execs are making seven figures and CEOs eight I ain't buying corporate welfare as just a cost of doing business. We are the #1 consumer market in the world, we don't need to offer incentives to do business here.


The fact that we are the #1 consumer market in the world does not necessarily mean that we're the preferred location to produce goods and services, which creates jobs.

I couldn't agree more about the 7 figure salaries taken by execs and CEO being excessive and disproportionate, but once again, we're talking about cutting off our noses to spite our face if we're going to castigate a business because they're overpaying their CEO.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:45 pm

As long as corporate execs are making seven figures and CEOs eight I ain't buying corporate welfare as just a cost of doing business.


Reality doesn't bend to our acceptance levels.

Just another business cost is what corporate taxes are, and while their salaries will bear some of the burden of those costs, it will be *minuscule* compared to that of employees and consumers.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:22 pm

burrrton wrote:
I'm ambivalent on the mortgage deduction, but I have no idea how anyone defends the state/local tax deduction on a moral level.

Asking people in Washington to subsidize people living in Oregon and California is preposterous.


I saw something in print or tv that stated there are only 7 states that would get taxed more by not allowing the State/Local deduction. That means 43 states are carrying water for those 7 states. California, Mass, NJ, NY, Maryland are for sure in there and I think the other one I remember was Conn but I can't remember the last one.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:59 pm

burrrton wrote:Reality doesn't bend to our acceptance levels.

Just another business cost is what corporate taxes are, and while their salaries will bear some of the burden of those costs, it will be *minuscule* compared to that of employees and consumers.


Yea, that's just it. I've worked for a Fortune 500 company for decades, and I don't like the financial disparity between our CEO and those of us that have to work for a living any more than anyone else. But when you boil it all down, it has a very miniscule affect on what other employees earn or the prices they charge their customers. It's just one of those distasteful things that we have to learn to live with if we want to live in a capitalistic society.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:30 pm

I've worked for a Fortune 500 company for decades, and I don't like the financial disparity between our CEO and those of us that have to work for a living any more than anyone else.


No disagreement, but it doesn't stop there- I've caught wind of what a *lot* of upper-ish management makes, and it's ridiculous.

It's just a stupid thing to worry about, though- the company can decide what it values and what it doesn't (and at what level), and they'll either thrive or struggle based on those decisions. Resentment isn't a good look, and it doesn't help you advance yourself. Just the opposite, in fact.

It's just one of those distasteful things that we have to learn to live with if we want to live in a capitalistic society.


I'm not sure there's anything I need to learn to live with- what someone else makes is none of my concern. That includes my neighbors, my coworkers, my manager, and my CEO. None of it victimizes me.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:13 pm

I agree with you in principle. As a rule, I don't care what another person makes as I don't feel it's any of my business, even my fellow employees. It's class warfare driving by pure jealousy, and I try my best not to engage in it.

But I can distinctly remember attending a cocktail party with several VP's, GM's, and other types with 3 piece suits and flowery titles. They were bragging about the extravagant vacations they took, them and their wives flying first class to Europe or the Orient, on airline mileage earned solely on company business while I'm slaving away sweating my balls off working graveyards and weekends in scenic Moses Lake..and the company had the gall to quit buying a $5 tin of coffee for our office as part of an effort to cut operating costs (decided by people that could think of no other way to cut costs).
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:29 am

Sounds like terrible management, RD.

Serious question, though: what's "They quit buying trivial crap" have to do with whether I'm being paid justly?

I'm not saying I've never felt that human impulse to resent people who are obviously and obscenely overpaid by my calculations, but I'm not going to pretend that kind of stuff is up to me to decide, and I'm not going to entertain the idea of 'punishing' employers for it as doing so will cost *me* a hell of a lot more than it will them.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:35 am

burrrton wrote:Sounds like terrible management, RD.

Serious question, though: what's "They quit buying trivial crap" have to do with whether I'm being paid justly?

I'm not saying I've never felt that human impulse to resent people who are obviously and obscenely overpaid by my calculations, but I'm not going to pretend that kind of stuff is up to me to decide, and I'm not going to entertain the idea of 'punishing' employers for it as doing so will cost *me* a hell of a lot more than it will them.


I assume by trivial crap you're referring to my story about management's decision not to buy us anymore coffee. It doesn't have a thing to do with whether or not I'm paid fairly. My point was that there was a huge gulf between the working stiffs and upper management during the time I was referring to, that they don't see a problem with accepting airline mileage earned while on paid company business and trying to cut costs by ceasing to provide their supervisors with a tin of coffee that lasts weeks, also that they knew so little about the business that they were managing that the only thing they could think of to cut costs was taking away our coffee rather than to try something like ramping back our boilers from 250 psi to 245, something that I proposed and was adopted. They didn't have a frigging clue about our business except trivial nonsense that didn't amount to a handful of peanuts.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph. As a rule, I don't care how thick a person's pocketbook is as most upper class people I've encountered are very down to Earth. But every once in a, I run into a conceited prick of the type I encountered at the cocktail party.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:38 am

My philosophyis to not complain about what the rich do. I don't want to take anything from the rich either. If I want to be rich, then I find a rich person to be friends with and then do what they do. To me,, that is the secret to life, don't complain about others but instead find someone you want to be like and then do what they do.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:59 am

I assume by trivial crap you're referring to my story about management's decision not to buy us anymore coffee.


Of course. And your more thorough description doesn't change that your essential beef seems to be that they quit buying trivial stuff when they obviously had the money to do so.

I wonder why you'd waste an ounce of energy worrying about that, except insofar as it means you're working for a lousy company.

They didn't have a frigging clue about our business except trivial nonsense that didn't amount to a handful of peanuts.


Agree- like I said, sh*tty management. Been there.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:07 am

find someone you want to be like and then do what they do.


Funny- I've said something similar since my early 20s: if you want to be successful, do what successful people do.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:51 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:corporations do not pay the same taxes as everyone else, they get ridiculous tax breaks in the name of "boosting" economies both local and National. It's the "trickle down" con.


Some of it's a con, some of it is not a con. States usually grant the most tax breaks. The states have to compete for jobs, even countries now. Not providing tax breaks mean businesses move and states lose jobs. Most states primary forms of revenue generation are state income tax and sales tax. Both require lots of people working and spending money. It makes sense for states to provide tax incentives for large companies to come to their state. Cities compete as well.

The revenue imprint of a company on an economy is huge. Not sure why you think intelligent management of a growing business isn't much more beneficial for an economy and the people within it than the gain from taxing corporate taxes. I see people ragging on Amazon for not paying much in corporate income taxes, but Bezos takes almost all excess revenue and reinvests it in new business ventures or expansion creating more jobs, paying more fees and taxes for expansion, building, and purchasing equipment, and further expands the local economy he is a part of. Not to mention all the businesses that grow around a company like Amazon. A company like Amazon in your community is the corporate equivalent of a local genesis effect. On the first day there was Amazon, on the sixth day there were numerous businesses and jobs and civilization around it.

This type of expenditure I like and support. It's intelligent management of an economy.

Trickle Down without direct policies to back it up I don't like. Lowering tax rates with the assumption that the wealthy company or person will spend it on expansion is hogwash. Focused tax breaks to encourage expansion with the associated job growth and consumption expenditures is smart economics.

burrrton wrote:Re: Billionaires: rich people pay the same tax on their income everyone else does (actually much more). Are you arguing for taxing *wealth* every year or what??


I think a lot of people don't understand why the wealthy pay less in total taxes. They don't realize that Social Security and Medicare are taxed only up to a certain amount of earnings for everyone. And that capital gains do not accrue a social security or medicare tax. That is an almost 8.8 percent reduction in taxes for people making less than a 121 thousand last I looked for an individual. And that long-term capital gains is taxed at a flat rate of 20% with additional deductions for losses or businesses expenditures that are often already taxed with consumption tax, business and operation taxes, and the like.

When a smarmy liberal posts some article that includes only the income or federal taxes of an individual, they don't include the overall tax imprint of that individual to ensure their viewpoint of the wealthy being bad, evil manipulators is pushed. Most people don't dig deeper than a puddle into the real tax benefits a wealthy person provides a nation, state, or community. They only really find out once that person is driven off by draconian tax policies that lead to the destruction of states, nations, and the like, such as Europe had for many years.

Only stupid rich people (or those that are true patriots) pay taxes. They hide their true incomes in capitol gains and corporate profits and pay themselves a salary that's a small percentage of their real world income to pay taxes on. Putting all of the taxes on sales would eliminate all that BS.


There aren't as many tax breaks as you think c-bob. Wealthy people pay a lower percentage based on a reduced capital gains tax of 20% on investments held for over a year. Here is the reality: This tax is not only for wealthy people, it's for anyone. I have gained from investments paying the lower capital gains tax. I'm pretty far from wealthy. I'm a working person that likes to invest. I spent the time to learn how to do it and how it works. It's not some corrupt, evil system that only wealthy people can benefit from. It's a fairly clear system any person can learn and benefit from.

I'd love to see where you're getting your information from. The whole tax breaks thing sounds great on paper. In reality it works a whole lot different if you read the tax codes. The number of people taking advantage of tax codes are not just the wealthy, at least not as wealthy as the pundits like to sensationalize. I know more than a few small businessmen that take advantage of writing off dinner meals, mileage, and the like as business expenses, thus reducing the amount of taxable income generated by their small business while not earning the huge sums normally associated with the wealthy. These tax breaks benefit small business owners in the 50 to 200 thousand dollar earnings a year as well. They usually do pay the standard pay rates on income, but are able to write down expenses not available to a working person. Not sure why this is a bad thing considering even after these business expenses, they're not earning more than working person, and often don't have the same quality benefits for the same low cost provided by larger businesses.

I think the largest discrepancies come from the 8.8% gap in medicare and social security payments many business people avoid paying because both of those are primarily paid only on earned income below a certain amount. An 8.8% gap is rather huge when you look at it as an aggregate between a working person and a business owner's taxes. This gap accounts for a lot of the percentage difference income paid.

I really wish we would educate people more on the inner workings of our tax codes. Sensationalizing the wealth disparity and encouraging a fight that is only going to lead to the kind of stagnation we saw in Europe and Canada for years is going to make people extremely unhappy in the long run if they ever have to find out that Europe and Canada's socialized systems don't work as well as they think, especially when you don't have a bigger country like us to sell to. We are the big dog economy in the world. As our economy so goes the world economy. We need American business to be robust and productive to keep the world economy healthy.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:13 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:No, forcing corporations, churches and billionaires to pay the same rate of taxes as everyone else with a loophole free sales tax would significantly lower the tax burden on all of us.


Then how come the tax burden on workers in places like Norway, Germany, Canada, France, and the other nations that tax businesses and the wealthy heavier or "more fairly"(as some would put it) is not lower? If this type of taxing you advocate works, then why isn't it lowering the tax burden in nations that practice it? As an American, you pay less in taxes than the workers of many other nations.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:21 pm

Lowering tax rates with the assumption that the wealthy company or person will spend it on expansion is hogwash. Focused tax breaks to encourage expansion with the associated job growth and consumption expenditures is smart economics.


I don't disagree with that, but while lowering rates doesn't guarantee expansion, raising rates *does* guarantee the opposite in some form.

Businesses large and small aren't just piggy banks for the local/state/Fed government to pull $$ from- they do react.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:04 am

When Oracle was looking for a place to open a new factory, our state never made it past the first hurdle. TAXES!!!!

We (small business owners) actually had a few of our local legislators come and tell us that they offered to lower our rate of tax to Oracle but they turned us down anyways. Know why? Because they said that the other states start at a lower rate and offer discounts from there.

So if you want your kids to stay home where they were raised and have a good job, you are going to have to do something that attracts the employers to build a factory, office or whatever in your community so that your kids have a place to work.

My very small home town run by crony old people for years turned down businesses that wanted to build in our town. They wanted to keep it small and not have the downside of a bigger city. When I graduated high school I joined the military because the only available jobs that offered a career in my home town was being a ranch hand on a local ranch or selling drugs on the street. Neither choice sounded attractive to me. I even moved over 500 miles away to Salt Lake City for a while and worked in a jewelry factory.

It would have been great for some company to move in to my community that had jobs available instead of me having to leave what I considered home. I would have gladly paid my taxes for that opportunity.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:20 pm

burrrton wrote:I don't disagree with that, but while lowering rates doesn't guarantee expansion, raising rates *does* guarantee the opposite in some form.

Businesses large and small aren't just piggy banks for the local/state/Fed government to pull $$ from- they do react.


Mostly you are right, like 90% plus is my estimate. If the government has a good plan to use the increased taxation for useful economic expansion or services, then sometimes it is better to tax. Unfortunately, the government is not the best at efficient or profitable use of tax monies. The private sector is far better at finding uses for money that lead to better economic outcomes. It's too bad the majority of the population is so uneducated about economics and socially trained to view successful accumulation and management of wealth with envy. They don't even realize that the socialist economic policies they support often lead to them being poorer and the wealthy only being 100 times wealthier rather than 120 to 150 times wealthier while they're much poorer. It's not a real victory for the working man as they find they will always have to pay for everything they want including socialized medicine or medicare/social security. The wealthy have their money not because of favorable tax manipulation, but because they work extremely hard, intelligently, and take more risks to be wealthy. As long as they continue, only the worst possible system like Communism will cause them to pursue wealth in different ways such as becoming prominent party members or making deals with foreign nations, while the people remain poor and coddled in their "socialist" dream nation of the poor.

I personally get tired of the BS. I'm not rich by any means. At the same time I've never seen myself as poor either. I work for my money. I make smart decisions with my bills. I go without those things I can't justify as an expense (meaning really need them) like smartphones with all the bells and whistles, cable television, and the like. I save a great deal of my income. I pay off my car or buy it outright with cash. I use coupons and such for groceries or look for deals buying in bulk. I generally don't spend my cash in a frivolous manner. I generally don't have problems paying my bills, building up a good amount of wealth to invest, and generally not having to live paycheck to paycheck. I take advantage of things like capital gains lower tax rates and gains from investments with tax benefits.

Yet I'm supposed to buy into all this rich vs. poor crap while I watch poor people having to have their phone upgrades, smoke their cigarettes and drink their alcohol, and their lack of desire or interest in saving or investing. These folks want the government to take the money in taxes and give them a baby blanket instead of managing their finances intelligently themselves. I'm going to have to pay for it at some point. It's tyranny of the mob, but they don't want to see it that way. If they had to admit that voting for taxes and government services is a form of group tyranny, then they would have to admit that they're using their vote and political power as a means to deprive people like me of my right to spend my labor as I wish. It's all ok with them because their making bad financial decisions, if they can make someone like me seem like the bad guy because they vilified some super rich guy that's using the same tax advantages I have access to, it makes it seem ok for them.

There's no convincing any of them otherwise. They're just sure the rich are the only ones acting in a corrupt manner even as they raise their children poorly, drink their booze, don't take care of themselves as far as health goes , use their drugs while having children they can't take care of, and all the other vice-ridden, irresponsible behaviors I have to pay for because bleeding heart liberals think it is my responsibility to care for their young that they raised so poorly. I pretty much despise the attitude, but it's inescapable. They are convinced they have a right a to my labor to fix the social issues they cause with their undisciplined, scumbag behavior and choices. What can I do when the majority of the mob votes for it and uses men with guns to enforce it? They do this while at the same time trying to take my right to bear the same arms they will use against me away.

It's a giant scam. Yet the majority people aren't moral enough to live with the consequences of their life decisions.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:58 pm

Who are THEY???? Come on now, you started to say something profound, now finish it. Let us ALL know who "they" are.

BTW; YOUR POTUS today declared that the shooting in a church in Texas was NOT a "gun" problem but a mental health issue. Fair enough, I guess that means he will now admit he made a GROSS MISTAKE when one of his first acts as POTUS was to rescind a regulation President Obama had signed that had made it HARDER for people who were deemed mentally ill from buying guns. So, Donald J. Trump agreed with the NRA that NO ONE should be hindered from buying a gun, especially the mentally ill. What's next? Letting convicted felons purchase weapons immediately upon release??? Now, THAT is what I call DISGUSTING!
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:47 am

Seahawks4Ever wrote:Who are THEY???? Come on now, you started to say something profound, now finish it. Let us ALL know who "they" are.

BTW; YOUR POTUS today declared that the shooting in a church in Texas was NOT a "gun" problem but a mental health issue. Fair enough, I guess that means he will now admit he made a GROSS MISTAKE when one of his first acts as POTUS was to rescind a regulation President Obama had signed that had made it HARDER for people who were deemed mentally ill from buying guns. So, Donald J. Trump agreed with the NRA that NO ONE should be hindered from buying a gun, especially the mentally ill. What's next? Letting convicted felons purchase weapons immediately upon release??? Now, THAT is what I call DISGUSTING!


Given today's revelations do you want to amend this comment? You do know that it was the Air Force under Obama with his stupid regulations that didn't file the paperwork that would have prevented this guy from buying a gun, right? You also know that it was a gun carrying NRA Trainer that shot the guy to stop the carnage, right?

Its funny how pure evil always runs away when faced by good. Just like that shooter ran when he was shot.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:49 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Mostly you are right, like 90% plus is my estimate. If the government has a good plan to use the increased taxation for useful economic expansion or services, then sometimes it is better to tax. Unfortunately, the government is not the best at efficient or profitable use of tax monies. The private sector is far better at finding uses for money that lead to better economic outcomes. It's too bad the majority of the population is so uneducated about economics and socially trained to view successful accumulation and management of wealth with envy. They don't even realize that the socialist economic policies they support often lead to them being poorer and the wealthy only being 100 times wealthier rather than 120 to 150 times wealthier while they're much poorer. It's not a real victory for the working man as they find they will always have to pay for everything they want including socialized medicine or medicare/social security. The wealthy have their money not because of favorable tax manipulation, but because they work extremely hard, intelligently, and take more risks to be wealthy. As long as they continue, only the worst possible system like Communism will cause them to pursue wealth in different ways such as becoming prominent party members or making deals with foreign nations, while the people remain poor and coddled in their "socialist" dream nation of the poor.

I personally get tired of the BS. I'm not rich by any means. At the same time I've never seen myself as poor either. I work for my money. I make smart decisions with my bills. I go without those things I can't justify as an expense (meaning really need them) like smartphones with all the bells and whistles, cable television, and the like. I save a great deal of my income. I pay off my car or buy it outright with cash. I use coupons and such for groceries or look for deals buying in bulk. I generally don't spend my cash in a frivolous manner. I generally don't have problems paying my bills, building up a good amount of wealth to invest, and generally not having to live paycheck to paycheck. I take advantage of things like capital gains lower tax rates and gains from investments with tax benefits.

Yet I'm supposed to buy into all this rich vs. poor crap while I watch poor people having to have their phone upgrades, smoke their cigarettes and drink their alcohol, and their lack of desire or interest in saving or investing. These folks want the government to take the money in taxes and give them a baby blanket instead of managing their finances intelligently themselves. I'm going to have to pay for it at some point. It's tyranny of the mob, but they don't want to see it that way. If they had to admit that voting for taxes and government services is a form of group tyranny, then they would have to admit that they're using their vote and political power as a means to deprive people like me of my right to spend my labor as I wish. It's all ok with them because their making bad financial decisions, if they can make someone like me seem like the bad guy because they vilified some super rich guy that's using the same tax advantages I have access to, it makes it seem ok for them.

There's no convincing any of them otherwise. They're just sure the rich are the only ones acting in a corrupt manner even as they raise their children poorly, drink their booze, don't take care of themselves as far as health goes , use their drugs while having children they can't take care of, and all the other vice-ridden, irresponsible behaviors I have to pay for because bleeding heart liberals think it is my responsibility to care for their young that they raised so poorly. I pretty much despise the attitude, but it's inescapable. They are convinced they have a right a to my labor to fix the social issues they cause with their undisciplined, scumbag behavior and choices. What can I do when the majority of the mob votes for it and uses men with guns to enforce it? They do this while at the same time trying to take my right to bear the same arms they will use against me away.

It's a giant scam. Yet the majority people aren't moral enough to live with the consequences of their life decisions.

Although I don't think it is a scam I think it is not right what the democrats do to corner people into perpetual dependence on the govt.

Good post Asea.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:20 pm

idhawkman wrote:Although I don't think it is a scam I think it is not right what the democrats do to corner people into perpetual dependence on the govt.

Good post Asea.


It's not tied to a political party. The Republicans have their own form of this thinking that causes them to want to "Lead the world" and use our tax dollars on an expensive military they use to forward American political and business interests world wide regardless of whether this interaction supports American values. They want to keep us involved in a huge variety of conflicts, so our corporations can get that money from around the world. We have to pay for it with little to no benefit. We could get cheap products without the military interventions. People would want to sell here even if we didn't send military force everywhere.

The government is addicted to using tax dollars to pursue the moral, political, and economic agendas of the elected officials regardless of whether it is good for Americans in general. It's a country club in Washington D.C., and our tax money is what they use to pursue their games.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:36 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:
It's not tied to a political party. The Republicans have their own form of this thinking that causes them to want to "Lead the world" and use our tax dollars on an expensive military they use to forward American political and business interests world wide regardless of whether this interaction supports American values. They want to keep us involved in a huge variety of conflicts, so our corporations can get that money from around the world. We have to pay for it with little to no benefit. We could get cheap products without the military interventions. People would want to sell here even if we didn't send military force everywhere.

The government is addicted to using tax dollars to pursue the moral, political, and economic agendas of the elected officials regardless of whether it is good for Americans in general. It's a country club in Washington D.C., and our tax money is what they use to pursue their games.


There you lose me. I've literally been around the world too many times to know that when we withdraw, the world gets worse for us. Pearl Harbor, 9/11, North Korea, Iranian Hostages and many more examples are when we backed off from a position of strength.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:56 pm

burrrton wrote:Funny- I've said something similar since my early 20s: if you want to be successful, do what successful people do.


There's two types of rich: Those that inherit their wealth and consequently never have to work a day in their lives, ala Teddy Kennedy, and those whom earned it by building their businesses in their parent's garage, ala Bill Gates.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:16 am

Yeah, there are two types, but people that are rich from inheritance are a vanishingly small portion of the 'one percent', and I'd wager a good chunk of those inherited farms and/or businesses, so maintaining their 'success' isn't a given.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:25 am

burrrton wrote:Yeah, there are two types, but people that are rich from inheritance are a vanishingly small portion of the 'one percent', and I'd wager a good chunk of those inherited farms and/or businesses, so maintaining their 'success' isn't a given.


That's true, but inheriting a farm or business is a huge advantage over the other 99+% of us that aren't as fortunate. Even if the business or farm fails, there's usually enough assets associated with it that they can parlay it into another opportunity.

I'm not at all jealous as many are at people being born with a silver spoon in their mouths. It's just one of those things we have to learn to live with if we want to live in a free enterprise, capitalistic society and is infinitely better than any of the other alternatives. But people that aren't forced to earn a living or create their own wealth are deprived of the character building and other aspects of human development that occurs from having to work for a living, and many, like Donald Trump, are turned into spoiled brats because of it.

John Kennedy, who was born in 1917 making him a teenager during the Great Depression, said that he had never even heard of it until he got to college.
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Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:30 am

But people that aren't forced to earn a living or create their own wealth are deprived of the character building and other aspects of human development that occurs from having to work for a living, and many, like Donald Trump, are turned into spoiled brats because of it.


Sure, but again, those people are a rounding error among the well-to-do.

I'm also not sure I'd always equate "wealthy" with "successful".
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