New Tax Bill Released today

Politics, Religion, Salsa Recipes, etc. Everything you shouldn't bring up at your Uncle's house.

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:50 am

burrrton wrote:Sure, but again, those people are a rounding error among the well-to-do.

I'm also not sure I'd always equate "wealthy" with "successful".


I'm not equating wealth with success. I'm equating it with opportunity. Inherited wealth creates opportunities that are generally unavailable to the rest of us.

For example, Mike Brown and Mark Davis haven't been as successful as their fathers Paul Brown and Al Davis, but they've had a much greater opportunity at getting a ring than we have. :D
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:03 am

I'm equating it with opportunity.


Taking advantage of opportunities presented is an admirable quality.

And one more time, people wealthy from being 'born with a silver spoon' (who then came about their wealth from being presented with the "opportunities" implied therein) are a tiny percentage of the top earners. They don't affect what I said in an appreciable way.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:38 am

burrrton wrote:Taking advantage of opportunities presented is an admirable quality.

And one more time, people wealthy from being 'born with a silver spoon' (who then came about their wealth from being presented with the "opportunities" implied therein) are a tiny percentage of the top earners. They don't affect what I said in an appreciable way.


Teddy Kennedy took advantage of the opportunity that was created by his inherited wealth by staying out of jail, which is where you or me would have ended up had it been one of us that drove off the end of a dock and drowned the passenger. Is that the admirable quality of which you were speaking?

And one more time, I am not in any way suggesting that inherited wealth affects me or the rest of us, nor am I suggesting that those that are 'spoiled' represent any particular percentage of top earners. I am simply acknowledging a fact of which you apparently have not: That those that inherited their wealth are supremely blessed with opportunities simply by birthright that you and me have to earn.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:31 am

I'm equating it with opportunity.


burrrton wrote:Taking advantage of opportunities presented is an admirable quality.

And one more time, people wealthy from being 'born with a silver spoon' (who then came about their wealth from being presented with the "opportunities" implied therein) are a tiny percentage of the top earners. They don't affect what I said in an appreciable way.


A tiny percentage? I don't believe that. I'd say that there are more very wealthy people that were born into wealth than made it on their own.
User avatar
c_hawkbob
Legacy
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:34 pm
Location: K-evil Kentucky, 42053

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:26 pm

Is that the admirable quality of which you were speaking?


I knew a very wealthy man who was convicted of murder- that doesn't mean I'm advocating you go out and kill people to become successful for heaven's sake.

That those that inherited their wealth are supremely blessed with opportunities simply by birthright that you and me have to earn.


*sigh* That doesn't discount anything I said. Of course there are successful sh*theads- that doesn't mean you can't learn something watching successful people, and *that* doesn't mean you should copy every one of their behaviors without exception.

How you can find something to argue about in a truism like "successful people do things that lead to success", I have no idea.

I'd say that there are more very wealthy people that were born into wealth than made it on their own.


IIRC, in The Millionaire Next Door, their surveys suggest something like 80% of millionaires are 1st-gen wealthy. There's no way less than half the high earners in this country were born into 'normal' circumstances.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:51 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:A tiny percentage? I don't believe that. I'd say that there are more very wealthy people that were born into wealth than made it on their own.


How wealthy is wealthy? What is wealthy to you?

Billionaires you may be right. But some well known billionaires that took an already good position but nowhere near billionaire to billionaire are folks like Bill Gates. Sam Walton. Jeff Bezos, Mark Cuban, and Steven Spielberg.

As far as millionaires c-bob, there are more self-made millionaires than inherited. Too numerous to name and all over the nation, not generally popular or well know. Just people that ran small to medium sized businesses or worked their up in a high paid profession like many actors or musicians. Do you not consider them wealthy? Do you not consider them to have earned their positions?

Or are you only interested in targeting billionaires? Are they the only ones that need to be paying higher taxes? Where is your cut off point? Who do you plan to target? Only those that inherited their money or the millionaires that tooks risks and earned it? From what I understand George Clooney just leveraged his acting earnings into a Tequila company, then sold it for a billion dollars. He's now in the hundreds of millions range and he earned it.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:40 pm

I was speaking of billionaires, which is why I specified "very wealthy", and at least you speak in terms of "some" instead of a "tiny percentage" ... regardless, I don't believe it to be true of millionaires either. Certainly a lot more that when speaking of billionaires, but more than half self made? I don't buy it. Where are you getting this information or is it just your best guess?
User avatar
c_hawkbob
Legacy
 
Posts: 3129
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:34 pm
Location: K-evil Kentucky, 42053

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:57 pm

I don't believe it to be true of millionaires either.


It's true. I'll track down the cites for you.

Yeah, for billionaires it's pretty tough to achieve without starting with a sh*tload of capital, but that's a pretty ridiculous bar to set for "wealthy". It's like 0.000001% of our population (not even a rounding error).

I have a three friends who are 'mere' millionaires (well, two I know of, the other I'm pretty sure), and while they're nowhere *near* being billionaires, none of them would have to work another day in their lives if they didn't want to (and none of the three were born into money, by the way- quite the opposite).

[edit]

Only 8% inherited wealth:
https://www.fa-mag.com/news/most-millio ... 14565.html

"In my thirty plus years of surveying and studying millionaires, I have consistently found that 80 to 86% are self made."
http://www.thomasjstanley.com/2014/05/a ... self-made/

There are a million more links just like those.

[edit2]

...and at least you speak in terms of "some" instead of a "tiny percentage"


Allow me to apologize for having pondered this before. :)
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:41 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I was speaking of billionaires, which is why I specified "very wealthy", and at least you speak in terms of "some" instead of a "tiny percentage" ... regardless, I don't believe it to be true of millionaires either. Certainly a lot more that when speaking of billionaires, but more than half self made? I don't buy it. Where are you getting this information or is it just your best guess?


Info for billionaires is various web sites. I believe it is in the 50/50 to 60/40 range inherited/earned range. I know the Koch Brothers and current Walton clan inherited. But as I stated many tech billionaires earned it such as the Gates, Bezos, and Zuckerbergs. They started from good positions, but turned that good position into billionaire status. Tech and investing has been the biggest push for billionaires. I believe Carl Icahn, our owner Paul Allan, and even that liberal asshat George Soros earned their billionaire status. Then there is Oprah. I think she pushed passed the billion dollar status. And JK Rowling, Mrs. Harry Potter may have as well from documented welfare mom.

I follow a lot of wealth information. As far as single web site, I can't really point you to it as there are many. I suggest looking around as many web sites have varying numbers for inheritors versus earners. It also depends on generations as some are only 2nd generation billionaires with parents that did earn it.I don't think you can fault someone for passing on money to their kids. As far as old money, old money exists, but isn't as big as you would think because so many billionaires came up during the tech boom.

Millionaires you can read different books like The Millionaire Next Door or other similarly themed wealth building books. There was a UPS driver that invested his earnings and ended up with 36 million dollars through smart investing. At the end of his life he donated most of it as he had no real kin to pass it on to. Hollwyood, Music, and business is filled with millionaires that earned their money like Ray Krock (McDonald's guy), too many actors and musicians to name (my favorite being Schwarzenegger), and founders of companies like Dominos, Five Guys, various cooking icons like Bobby Flay and Tom Colicchio, inventors such as the guys that started certain video games and medical devices as well as the well-known Apple guys Wozniak and Jobs.

There are also numerous famous writers like Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and my guy J.R.R. Tolkien (dead now and passed on to his son rights to his books).

The list of self-made millionaires is really too numerous to name. You can find percentages on the web. There are so many self-made millionaires in this nation that you know yourself that it should be easy for you to see the percentage of self-made millionaires is extremely high. You can probably name a thousand that exist now off the top of your head. I wouldn't be surprised you knew a few self-made millionaires, c-bob. Though you know I only know one, my uncle I think was either a millionaire or very close. He used to own a concrete company. I know the fishing business has produced quite a few self-made millionaires.

Self-made millionaires are a dime a dozen. America produces millionaires like a production line.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:01 pm

idhawkman wrote:There you lose me. I've literally been around the world too many times to know that when we withdraw, the world gets worse for us. Pearl Harbor, 9/11, North Korea, Iranian Hostages and many more examples are when we backed off from a position of strength.


How can you post this and pretend we somehow withdrew? The reason these happened is because we intervened. You're losing me by showing you aren't aware of what we've doing around the world.

9/11

This was caused by continuous direct intervention in the MIddle East. Building up dictators liee Saddam Hussein, Mubarak in Egypt, Kleptocrats in Tunisia, and trying to play support the coup in Iran and arming the Taliban and men like Osama in Afghanistan. We did that. We continually intervened in their affairs and it came home to roost. 9/11 was caused because we kept putting our hand into the cookie jar in the Middle East. So what do you mean by withdrawing?

North Korea

We involved ourselves in the Korean War to check the expansion of China. We helped divide Korea. This might be considered a successful intervention since China was checked and South Korean is doing way better than North.

Iranian Hostages?

Why were we even in Iran supporting a scumbag like the Shah?The nation was majority Shia. They didn't want a Sunni/Pan-Arabism leader. They wanted to have control of their future. They did what they had to do to obtain it.

Do you not take the time to research very deeply how corrupt America has been involving itself in nations like Iran, Korea, and the like?

That's why I don't like Republicans either. They are convinced that America needs to somehow tyrannize other nations with our military to "project strength." We would never tolerate that in America. Why should we go against our values to tyrannize other nations? Why do you support the use of the American military as a force of tyranny worldwide trying to force its way into nations and conflicts that don't want us there? Then when they get angry and attack us, you believe the terrorist taking our freedom tripe. You are one of the reasons I stopped voting Republican. You don't get that nations like Iraq, Iran, or the like are not a threat to us. They have zero chance of invading us and no chance of standing against on a battlefield.

You don't believe in American values. You support tyrannical use of our military to intervene in other nations. You in essence want our nation to be the Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the like of other nations. Do you realize that Iranians and Iraqis blame us for empowering Saddam and encouraging him to make war with Iran that killed a million of their people? If you thought another nation did that to your nation, what would you think of them? Yet you are convinced by the popular story in the States that we needed to be involved in these regions because you don't bother to think, "Wait a minute, do these people want us here? Are the people we're helping worthwhile?" Many times the answer to that question is no and no. Why do you support the use of your military as a force of foreign tyranny supporting scumbag regimes? I don't want my tax money used for that. Sorry, I don't believe in using our military to support vile regimes that tyrannize their people. We do that far too often.

These people that "hate our freedom" as the idiots would have you believe hate us for other reasons that are very real, tangible, and directly tied to our intervention around the world. I'm not saying we never do good things as our military does provide aid and build schools and such. But we also do some very evil interventions that have lead to very bad outcomes. We need to step back, especially when using tax money. That tax money is from all of us. We don't all agree how the military is being used in other nations.

If you don't think it is right for someone to take tax money from businesses to pay for welfare or liberal reofrms, then why is it right for the government to take tax money from businesses and working Americans to engage in military intervention that does not support their values?
Last edited by Aseahawkfan on Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:07 pm

This was caused by continuous direct intervention in the MIddle East.


Yes, defending civilization is such a bizarre decision for the world's only remaining superpower.

Why were even in Iran supporting a scumbag like the Shah.


Because global geopolitics isn't your freshman year Model UN.

You support tyrannical use of our military to intervene in other nations.


We have the most powerful military in the history of the planet, and it's not close- if we were "tyrannical", you'd fcking know it.

I'm not saying we [military] never do good things


LOL. How magnanimous!
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:25 pm

burrrton wrote:Yes, defending Kuwait, and arguably civilization, was such a bizarre decision for the world's only remaining superpower.


How were we defending civilization? Explain this idiot comment. Explain how a nation of 20 million divided people led by Saddam Hussein invading Iraq was a threat to civilization. I really want to hear your circumlocutions.

What was really happening in Kuwait is our dog got off his leash, we had to go in and put him back in the kennel. Have you read how Saddam came to power and how involved we were in that action?

Because global geopolitics isn't your freshman year Model UN.


Do you know anything about Pan-Arabism, the Shia vs. Sunni conflict, or how Britain divided up the Middle East beyond what you might quickly Google and post some smarmy tidbits on? Did you ever take the time to study it?

Nothing you posted is true. As long as Republican supporters like you continue to vote for idiotic like-minded folks from your party, you're no different than the Libtards you make fun of. You don't know what's going on. You don't care to know. You tow that party line of "America needs to be involved. Strong military. They hate our freedom." Rubbish.It keeps that tax money rolling in for the Republican Party to continue using our military in a corrupt manner to keep the 14 points of light of Wilsonianism alive.

You don't know jack squat about what Iranians want, burrton. You don't care. You don't care what any other nation wants but yourself. You're that example of the scumbag American that would never tolerate interference from outside in our affairs, but you believe that allowing an American government to take taxes from its people to engage in military interventions is somehow ok or any different from taking taxes to socialize America. What's the difference between you and the liberals? Nothing.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:32 pm

burrrton wrote:We have the most powerful military in the history of the planet, and it's not close- if we were "tyrannical", you'd fcking know it.


Other nations do know it. You don't want to listen to them.

What part of Saddam Hussein is a scumbag tyrant, stop selling him weapons and providing him with intelligence did you not read?

What part of don't sell weapons to kleptocrat guy in Tunisia President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali because he tyrannizes his people do you not know about?

What part of Egypt is run by a military dictator, please, stop sending him aid message did you not get?

What part of Salvadoran guerillas are killing people in schools stop training and supplying them?

What part of two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did you not see? These are acts of tyranny disguised as interventions and properly sold to you as defenses of freedom.

What about the Vietnam War and killing of millions after Ho Chi Minh asked for help becoming free? We didn't help him because of our agreement with the French colonists, as in tyrants controlling a colony of a nation they conquered.

What about supporting generals like Noriega until he became a problem?

Do you really not read or see tyranny unless it is directed at the United States? The world does feel our tyranny. We just sell it as something else to our own people, while in other nations there are people that don't want us there involved in their conflicts as one side plays us against the other. Whichever side we choose tyrannizes the other. How is that not acting as a tyrant? Explain it.

This whole we have the most powerful military in the world, you would feel it if we were acting tyrannically. Nations around the world have felt it for a long, long time. It's why so many do not like us or trust us. You like to believe the garbage that "They hate our freedom.". Well that's not true, buddy. There are long running stories in their nations of American tyranny and cruelty that they remember from our military and government. One young Bosnian kid I talked to says the word around their nation is that President Bill Clinton signed an agreement with the Serbian government that prevented military intervention that ended with the death of 10,000 Bosnians. America stood by and watched because of their agreement with the Bosnians. They do not forget.

While America has keep things law and order for the most part at home, they've been playing abroad in a fashion that hasn't led to us being a particularly well-liked nation with very real reasons as to why their people don't trust our government or our military.

In burrton's mind, when someone invades us it's tyranny, but when we invade someone else it's....? What? What is it in your mind, burrton. I want to hear what America making war on another nation is, since it isn't tyrannical or cruel behavior.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:24 pm

How were we defending civilization?


The world runs on oil, you idiot.

Do you know anything about Pan-Arabism, the Shia vs. Sunni conflict, or how Britain divided up the Middle East beyond what you might quickly Google and post some smarmy tidbits on? Did you ever take the time to study it?


No. Never. Never ever. You're the first one to do so.

Other nations do know it. You don't want to listen to them.


Er, I don't need other nations to tell me. Apparently you do, though, so quit lecturing someone who doesn't need to be told what to think.

What about supporting generals like Noriega until he became a problem?


One more time: global geopolitics isn't your freshman year Model UN.

This is related to the "WE NEED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION" disease- you sound like every dork that just finished POLS201 and thinks he's the first one to have finally grasped the complexities so starts hollering at those of us who pondered and discussed this years ago. Grow up. Bye.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:22 pm

Well the first step is complete. House passed their version of the Tax Reform Plan. 227 - 205

I'm not jumping for joy just yet. They house also passed Health Care Reform just to watch it die in the Senate.

Stay tuned and we'll see what happens.
User avatar
idhawkman
Legacy
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:00 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:19 pm

burrrton wrote:The world runs on oil, you idiot.


You never answer with any substance because you don't have any. When someone insults someone in this fashion, it's obvious they have no real knowledge to engage in debate. They are merely trolling another person because they lack the means to do otherwise. You have been this way for a long time. I doubt you do know anything about the topics you've been engaged on.

The Middle East is not our primary supplier of oil. There are plenty of places that will trade oil if we didn't get most of our imported oil from our neighbor Canada. Maybe you think we should invade them when they are disagreeable. They may even Weapons of Mass Destruction, eh? So your idiotic belief that we were defending civilization by invading Iraq and engaging in nation building in the Middle East sounds as dumb as racists that thought they were helping African people by enslaving them. That area of the world is quite capable of managing it's oil supply without our intervention.

As usual, you make a ludicrous insult while at the same time exhibiting a level of ignorance about a subject that makes the word idiot befitting of yourself. You are an example of an ignorant American incapable of admitting wrongdoing by this nation and exaggerating in your own mind the reality of our actions.

You go ahead and keep that little meter in your mind that apparently has America having done more good than bad overlooking all those little things like genocide against the native populations and enslavement of an entire group of people as well as trying to make them a permanent underclass. Not to mention being one of the only nations to drop multiple nuclear weapons on civilian populations. And numerous other military excursions leading to the deaths of tens of thousands. Of course, in your mind that isn't tyrannical behavior.

I pass you the white dunce cap and leave you in your corner.
Last edited by Aseahawkfan on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:30 pm

Looks like my wife and I get a tax increase. Upper middle class professionals working our balls off and we get a tax increase while Rump probably saves hundreds of millions. :evil: :evil: :evil: Corporate tax rate cut is permanent but individual rate gets bumped back up in a few years. In 5 years most of the middle class will be paying higher rates than now. And there is no incentivization to corporations to reinvest in wages or hiring.

2 things are certain. Death and taxes and death doesn't get any worse every time the congress meets...I don't trust these ass clowns one bit.
Especially a POTUS who won't show us this tax returns but wants to decide how much we have to pay...
Hawktawk
Legacy
 
Posts: 2705
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Start investing hawktawk. If that bill passes both houses, you better have money in the market or you're going to miss out big time.

You normally vote Republican. Are you seriously trying to push this tax crap on Trump? The entire party you've been voting for has been pushing corporate tax reform and lower taxes for business for years. Please don't attribute to Trump politics that have been part of the Republican Party since Reagan. This tax bill is Republican and it wouldn't matter which Republican won the presidency.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:20 pm

I don’t have money to invest. As for this market it isn’t high because of trump alone but also because interest rates are so low it’s the only place to make a return .

I think it’s dangeriusly overvalued and a stupid idea to have policy directing people to this pyramid scheme.not shocking with an administration full of Goldman Sachs executives and billionaires . Yeah I trust them they are looking out for the little guy :lol:

As for demicans and republicrats F##K all of them. I voted for Gary Johnson. Trump and Moore and the mindless drones who follow them have cured me of the Republican Party. I’m an independent from here on unless a rational 3rd party materializes .
Hawktawk
Legacy
 
Posts: 2705
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:46 pm

Hawktawk wrote:I don’t have money to invest. As for this market it isn’t high because of trump alone but also because interest rates are so low it’s the only place to make a return .


You're right. Doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.

I think it’s dangeriusly overvalued and a stupid idea to have policy directing people to this pyramid scheme.not shocking with an administration full of Goldman Sachs executives and billionaires . Yeah I trust them they are looking out for the little guy.


Republicans have been doing this since Reagan and that BS Trickle Down supply economics he pushed.

As for demicans and republicrats F##K all of them. I voted for Gary Johnson. Trump and Moore and the mindless drones who follow them have cured me of the Republican Party. I’m an independent from here on unless a rational 3rd party materializes .


At least you're finally looking elsewhere like I am. Give me a good third party candidate to vote for. I'm tired of business as usual.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:54 am

I think it’s dangeriusly overvalued


Eh, it's a cycle- bet we see a moderate correction in the next few months, then onward unless they f*ck it up botching the tax bill, a distinct possibility.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:15 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Looks like my wife and I get a tax increase. Upper middle class professionals working our balls off and we get a tax increase while Rump probably saves hundreds of millions. :evil: :evil: :evil: Corporate tax rate cut is permanent but individual rate gets bumped back up in a few years. In 5 years most of the middle class will be paying higher rates than now. And there is no incentivization to corporations to reinvest in wages or hiring.

2 things are certain. Death and taxes and death doesn't get any worse every time the congress meets...I don't trust these ass clowns one bit.
Especially a POTUS who won't show us this tax returns but wants to decide how much we have to pay...


You make no sense at all with this post. You do realize that there is no tax bill yet, right? Senate hasn't even passed their version of it and when they do they have to go to conference to work out the differences between the bills. Then and only then the president weighs in by either signing it or vetoing it. He doesn't make the laws. That's the legislative branch of government.

Second, you can blame the democrats for your tax increase. "IF" (and that's a big if) the democrats didn't cry "Tax Cuts for the Rich" everytime tax cuts are brought up, then you wouldn't be getting a tax hike. So to avoid the mantra of tax cuts for the rich (you), they punished you this time around.

By the way, how do you know your taxes are going up?
User avatar
idhawkman
Legacy
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:00 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:32 pm

Business cycles are no longer the primary driver of the market. It's up due to the currency manipulation during the downturn. Interest rate manipulation has led to heavy stock investment due to the lack of quality alternatives. We have yet another bubble built in cheap money that once it pops will be another major downturn. How long they can keep this cheap currency drip to the economy who can say. Not to mention the flash traders that ride the market up and down. Market valuations are whacky at the moment.

At the same time, if you're not in the market, you'll miss out on a lot of money and already have given how much it has risen. If the tax bill passes, you have yet another incentive to be in the market. A 20% corporate tax rate will increase the bottom line of an enormous number of companies which will drive the stock price up and up and up as the flash traders will ride any trend as high as they can go.

If you are in the market and something bad comes out of this Russian investigation, we will see a huge collapse. A probable humongous drop if Trump is impeached. That would be the perfect time to buy as it will likely be fairly short-term.

There's money to be had in the market. I definitely suggest buying at least an index fund if this tax bill passes. But don't go over 50 to 70% of your cash. Always keep 30% ore more in some kind of safe investment like bonds or cash. If the market drops you can dollar cost average down with quality companies by purchasing more shares or at least have cash ready to deploy in a market drop.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:46 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Business cycles are no longer the primary driver of the market. It's up due to the currency manipulation during the downturn. Interest rate manipulation has led to heavy stock investment due to the lack of quality alternatives. We have yet another bubble built in cheap money that once it pops will be another major downturn. How long they can keep this cheap currency drip to the economy who can say. Not to mention the flash traders that ride the market up and down. Market valuations are whacky at the moment.

At the same time, if you're not in the market, you'll miss out on a lot of money and already have given how much it has risen. If the tax bill passes, you have yet another incentive to be in the market. A 20% corporate tax rate will increase the bottom line of an enormous number of companies which will drive the stock price up and up and up as the flash traders will ride any trend as high as they can go.

If you are in the market and something bad comes out of this Russian investigation, we will see a huge collapse. A probable humongous drop if Trump is impeached. That would be the perfect time to buy as it will likely be fairly short-term.

There's money to be had in the market. I definitely suggest buying at least an index fund if this tax bill passes. But don't go over 50 to 70% of your cash. Always keep 30% ore more in some kind of safe investment like bonds or cash. If the market drops you can dollar cost average down with quality companies by purchasing more shares or at least have cash ready to deploy in a market drop.


The financial markets are driven by consumer confidence. The whole purpose of the stock market is to provide companies with capital for them to use to do whatever they need to increase sales or make their products better or cheaper, ie modernize their factories, hire sales people, etc. It's not unlike giving a football player a big new contract. You're not paying him for what he did for you in the past or even how he's playing currently, you're giving him that contract in anticipation of what he can do for you in the future.

Fund managers look at certain indicators to predict how a business will do in the future. Orders for goods or services is a leading indicator. If a company receives an uptick in orders, then you know that eventually they're going to receive proceeds from the sales. Employment is a lagging indicator. Employers don't start hiring until business has picked up and inventories start to shrink. If you start investing because you see that the unemployment figures are low, you might be too late. The business might have already slowed down but employers are reluctant to start laying off their workers until their warehouses are full.

You're right, the markets will take a hit if Trump is impeached or the Mueller investigation bears significant fruit. Markets do not like uncertainty as fund managers start hedging their bets and pull their money out because they are unsure of what the future might hold should there be a significant change in the future.

But these types of hits that are driven by scandals or random news events are relatively short lived. Once fund managers figure out the new paradigm or have confidence that the old one is going to be around for awhile, they'll either figure out where the next opportunity is or breathe a sigh of relief and toss their money back to where it was in the first place.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:06 pm

Looks a lot like health care reform imo. A bunch of squabbling idiots who had 8 years to come up with a plan and it’s only favored by 35 percent of REPUBS! Polls show most Americans believe their taxes will go up and I’m one of them. Beyond that there appears to be no incentive to invest in business improvements, wages, or hiring more employees just a permanent tax cut for billion dollar businesses sitting on records amount of capital for the most part. I trust nobody . This is going to make money for billionaires and accountants trying to figure out wtf the deal is. Hope to be wrong as always.
Hawktawk
Legacy
 
Posts: 2705
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:20 am

Hawktawk wrote:Looks a lot like health care reform imo. A bunch of squabbling idiots who had 8 years to come up with a plan and it’s only favored by 35 percent of REPUBS! Polls show most Americans believe their taxes will go up and I’m one of them. Beyond that there appears to be no incentive to invest in business improvements, wages, or hiring more employees just a permanent tax cut for billion dollar businesses sitting on records amount of capital for the most part. I trust nobody . This is going to make money for billionaires and accountants trying to figure out wtf the deal is. Hope to be wrong as always.


The Republicans control the Executive branch and both houses of Congress, and since there's such a dysfunctional relationship between them and Trump, they are getting desperate to find something that they can hang their hat on and use in their re-election campaigns less than a year from now.

The economy is doing pretty well right now, so there's really no need for a tax cut. If we were in a recession, then a tax cut could help pull us out of it. If there was some fundamental reform, then I might be able to be talked into it. But this proposal doesn't look like much of a change, it's just taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:12 am

But this proposal doesn't look like much of a change, it's just taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.


I haven't been interested enough to do a lot of reading on this yet (still too much up in the air), but while I agree with you to a point, I think both the House and Senate proposals are at least steps in the right direction.

They:

* lower the corporate tax rate (a good thing)
* simplify the code at least a little (4 brackets instead of 7- maybe just the House bill?)
* get rid of freaking death tax (also unquestionably a good thing)
* at least one gets rid of the damn individual mandate
* get rid of the SALT deductions, another unquestionably good thing

So... who knows what we'll actually end up with, but it's a start, I guess.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 am

burrrton wrote:They:

* lower the corporate tax rate (a good thing)
* simplify the code at least a little (4 brackets instead of 7- maybe just the House bill?)
* get rid of freaking death tax (also unquestionably a good thing)
* at least one gets rid of the damn individual mandate
* get rid of the SALT deductions, another unquestionably good thing

So... who knows what we'll actually end up with, but it's a start, I guess.


I agree that a lower corporate tax rate is a good thing, but at this point, I don't see a necessity for lowering it. The stock market has been on a steady climb and unemployment is at historic lows so they're doing just fine without it. Don't try to fix something that's not broken.

Just consolidating the tax brackets doesn't simplify the code. Tax brackets only come into play after you've completed your return.

Agreed about the death tax, at least as it applies to small businesses and farms.

It's pretty easy for us living in a state w/o a state income tax to be for the elimination of the SALT deduction. Besides, it's a deduction, not a refund, so we're not truly subsidizing them.

However, it does piss me off to see Oregon residents benefit from an income tax deduction then clog up the lines at Costco and not have to pay our sales tax, yet people working for my company that live in WA and work in OR have to pay their frigging income tax. But that's more of a state issue vs. federal.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:46 am

I agree that a lower corporate tax rate is a good thing, but at this point, I don't see a necessity for lowering it.


I don't think it's the most critical issue facing us in 2017, but we can't tax our way out of $20T in debt. We need to get to higher growth numbers (we've been in a virtual stall since the recession), which I think is the most persuasive argument in favor of lower corporate rates.

Just consolidating the tax brackets doesn't simplify the code. Tax brackets only come into play after you've completed your return.


Fair point.

Besides, it's [SALT] a deduction, not a refund, so we're not truly subsidizing them.


It's not a direct subsidy, but it reduces their Federal tax burden in favor of more $ going to their state. Yeah, it's easy to support its elimination from here (and not CA), but I've yet to hear an effective defense of why they ever should have been allowed to deduct them in the first place (and by the way, neither have I ever heard an effective argument in favor of the death tax- when did the Feds start thinking someone dying entitles them to half the estate?).

I don't give a crap what your tax burden is in New York- you get to pay the same amount to the Feds everyone else does.

However, it does piss me off to see Oregon residents benefit from an income tax deduction then clog up the lines at Costco and not have to pay our sales tax, yet people working for my company that live in WA and work in OR have to pay their frigging income tax. But that's more of a state issue vs. federal.


I've wondered why we allow that since the day I learned about it.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:38 pm

burrrton wrote:I've wondered why we allow that (exempt out of state residents from our sales tax) since the day I learned about it.


It was the business lobby that argued for it, particularly businesses near the border with Oregon. Yet as a WA resident, if you buy a large ticket item in Oregon, a car, appliance, etc, they'll charge you WA sales tax.

Oregon is really pricks about collecting their income tax, too. Decades ago, I was a WA resident working for a WA employer, and we had one warehouse just a couple of miles into Oregon. They demanded that I pay OR state income tax on every hour I worked in that warehouse, which only amounted to a couple of days a month. My employer stepped up, though, and told me to add to my time card whatever hours the tax worked out to be so they essentially paid that tax for me.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Yet as a WA resident, if you buy a large ticket item in Oregon, a car, appliance, etc, they'll charge you WA sales tax.


Pay cash :) (doesn't work for cars, but for everything else...)
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:20 pm

RiverDog wrote:The Republicans control the Executive branch and both houses of Congress, and since there's such a dysfunctional relationship between them and Trump, they are getting desperate to find something that they can hang their hat on and use in their re-election campaigns less than a year from now.

The economy is doing pretty well right now, so there's really no need for a tax cut. If we were in a recession, then a tax cut could help pull us out of it. If there was some fundamental reform, then I might be able to be talked into it. But this proposal doesn't look like much of a change, it's just taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.


I would agree with your assetion on tax cuts for recession reasons if it was only for people but this is also for businesses. Also, there is an element of the tax cut to bring back $3-5T of stranded funds overseas. These elements add in a growth focus that is not normally included in a recession tax cut.

What I found really funny this past week is congressmen and senators from NY, MA, CA, etc arguing that there would be a tax hike on "middle class" Americans making $300k+ a year and that they couldn't support the tax bill because of that. NOTE: All 3 republican congressmen from California who voted against the house bill were "very upset and wouldn't support the bill." My thought, "really? We won't get those three unless we put back in a loophole for SALT? How many "middle class" Americans in Oklahoma, Idaho, or so many other states would love to have an annual income of that? I get it, they live in high cost states but to accomodate those few, do we punish the rest of the country? How many votes would be lost if we accomodated those few? Not to mention the Dems are already saying this is tax cuts for the rich. Could you imagine what they would say if they make that accomodation?

I love it when Sen. Schumer says, "this is a tax cut for the wealthy and then turns around and says that his constituents will end up paying more." I wonder just exactly what he thinks is "Rich, Middle class and lower class" in this country. Can we ever get him to give us a income level on this?

The biggest problem I see is that the Tax Code applies to all states equally but each state has different cost levels to live in them. E.g. Hawaii and Alaska pay a lot more for food because virtually everything there is imported.
User avatar
idhawkman
Legacy
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:00 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:09 pm

idhawkman wrote:[The biggest problem I see is that the Tax Code applies to all states equally but each state has different cost levels to live in them. E.g. Hawaii and Alaska pay a lot more for food because virtually everything there is imported.


Alaskans also get a tax refund each year to help defray those costs, and they enjoy the highest median wage in the country. And please, don't ask me to feel sorry for someone living in Hawaii. Tough life!

Nowadays we are so mobile and the country is so fluid that an ever increasing number of Americans can choose between several states in which to live, and if cost of living makes a huge difference to you, you can move to somewhere that's cheap. But on many occasions, there's a downside to finding a low cost of living location, like living in an otherwise undesirable place or living away from family.

Besides, many companies take the cost of living into account when determining salary or pay rates. As a matter of fact, the rank of median wage by state closely reflects the cost of living in those states, with AK, HI, CA, MA, NY, CT, NJ, MD all in the top 10 in both wages and cost of living. So although residents in those states pay more, they also make more.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby idhawkman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:52 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Alaskans also get a tax refund each year to help defray those costs, and they enjoy the highest median wage in the country. And please, don't ask me to feel sorry for someone living in Hawaii. Tough life!

Nowadays we are so mobile and the country is so fluid that an ever increasing number of Americans can choose between several states in which to live, and if cost of living makes a huge difference to you, you can move to somewhere that's cheap. But on many occasions, there's a downside to finding a low cost of living location, like living in an otherwise undesirable place or living away from family.

Besides, many companies take the cost of living into account when determining salary or pay rates. As a matter of fact, the rank of median wage by state closely reflects the cost of living in those states, with AK, HI, CA, MA, NY, CT, NJ, MD all in the top 10 in both wages and cost of living. So although residents in those states pay more, they also make more.


My point exactly.
User avatar
idhawkman
Legacy
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:00 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:41 pm

RiverDog wrote:The financial markets are driven by consumer confidence. The whole purpose of the stock market is to provide companies with capital for them to use to do whatever they need to increase sales or make their products better or cheaper, ie modernize their factories, hire sales people, etc. It's not unlike giving a football player a big new contract. You're not paying him for what he did for you in the past or even how he's playing currently, you're giving him that contract in anticipation of what he can do for you in the future.


This is a partial purpose. Another purpose is for investors to be able to buy and sell companies. Every exchange of stock does not go to the company for capital to improve the business. Once the initial public offering is completed, the company has received its capital. The stock market then becomes a vehicle for investors to exchange shares of ownership in companies, hopefully for profit if the company is well run.

You should be wary of companies that go too often to the stock market as gaining capital through stock sales dilutes the ownership shares of the current owners. It's something you should watch carefully. If the company can't sustain and grow the company through profit reinvestment, that's a big warning sign. There are other ways for a company to capitalize growth than stock issuance.

Fund managers look at certain indicators to predict how a business will do in the future. Orders for goods or services is a leading indicator. If a company receives an uptick in orders, then you know that eventually they're going to receive proceeds from the sales. Employment is a lagging indicator. Employers don't start hiring until business has picked up and inventories start to shrink. If you start investing because you see that the unemployment figures are low, you might be too late. The business might have already slowed down but employers are reluctant to start laying off their workers until their warehouses are full.

You're right, the markets will take a hit if Trump is impeached or the Mueller investigation bears significant fruit. Markets do not like uncertainty as fund managers start hedging their bets and pull their money out because they are unsure of what the future might hold should there be a significant change in the future.

But these types of hits that are driven by scandals or random news events are relatively short lived. Once fund managers figure out the new paradigm or have confidence that the old one is going to be around for awhile, they'll either figure out where the next opportunity is or breathe a sigh of relief and toss their money back to where it was in the first place.


Consumer confidence is loosely associated with the stock market as it does show how willing someone is to spend money on goods and services in the economy. But consumers as a whole don't drive the daily markets. Investor confidence is an element of the stock market that has a dramatic effect. Risk on-risk off tolerance of investors drives daily and short-term market undulations. That investor confidence will suffer greatly if an impeachment and possible change in the White House occurs, especially one that causes the Republican Tax agenda to be defeated. The market is partially pricing in a long-term, beneficial change to tax rates for business. If that tax reform doesn't pass and the president is impeached, you will see a major drop in the markets, probably a few thousand points or more. The length of that drop could be short-term, meaning lasting less than a year or longer term meaning a few years depending on the stock and its value at the time of the drop.

Long-term fundamentals will prevail, but if the valuation is already too high for the fundamentals to support then that could extend the loss and the drop for a long time. If you invest at a peak and then a large drop comes, it could take years to recover lost capital. The tech bust was a prime example of what kind of damage investing in a bubble can do to your capital. Investing in Microsoft at a 100 a share way back in 2000 before the tech crash would have meant 15 years nursing a loss to no gain in that investment. It hit it's peak of 116, split to 58, then collapsed, and didn't hit 50 again until 2015. That means you wouldn't have seen a return on investment if you invested during that period for over 15 years. That is why bubble investing is risky and dangerous. You have to understand valuations, associated fundamentals, debt structures, quality of assets, momentum, and the macroeconomic factors driving the stock market.

If you take this loss, that's when you use those tax benefits available to all of us to write off an investment loss over the course of years. An individual last time I took a loss could write down up to $3000 per year of capital losses over the course of three years for a total of $9000 dollars on a bad investment. It may have increased at this point, but I haven't taken a loss in the market that large since the tech bust. I'm very careful about bubble investing now. I spend far more time analyzing fundamentals, macroeconomic factors, momentum (also known as technical trading), and looking for opportunities to buy in at a good price.

At this point we have a market driven by a lot of enthusiasm for macroeconomic factors associated with a Republican led government. But we also don't have good alternatives. Cheap money certainly doesn't help. Stock investment is driven by returns. If buying long-term bonds is only giving you a 2% return and investing in the stock market is giving you a 3 to 5% return, you're certainly going to invest in stocks. You don't want to sit on cash too long because inflation eats the value of your cash. At the moment long-term bonds barely keep up with inflation.

As far as discussing invest, I could do it for hours. One of the best skills you can learn to make money. But it is a skill and you have to understand what you're doing or you might get taken to the showers doing it on your own.
Last edited by Aseahawkfan on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:54 pm

We're not going to grow our way out of our deficit or tax our way out of it. The politicians wont stop spending. How long they can keep up the numbers game, who knows. At some point our descendants will pay for the irresponsibility in DC, but it's a long, long ways off. When and if that time comes we'll probably just go bankrupt or negotiate a deal, clear the books, and start again. The majority of the money is owed to bond investors, foreign and domestic. As long as we can keep up the interest payments bonds will continue to be a safe long-term investment that will allow us to continue borrowing. Where else are people going to put their money? As bad as our deficit is, our economy is still the strongest, largest, and safest in the world. Small nations with more stability and less debt are too small to invest a large sum of money in. Other large nations lack the stability and strength of the U.S. economy. We're the best game in town as far as as the world goes and in no danger of losing that designation any time soon.

It sure would be nice if we balanced our books. Our economy would be stronger the closer we are to balanced. The ideal is always to grow as much as possible with as little debt as possible.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:10 pm

From what what I understand our corporations also pay some of the highest tax rates in the world. This makes us less competitive globally.

As far as a lower tax rate benefiting the owners, profit distributions are not the best way to deploy profits. Any time a corporate owner receives a distribution from a company, it is taxed twice. Once when it pays corporate taxes and another time when it is received as income through a distribution. With corporate tax rates as high as they are, that means an individual receiving distributions from a corporation paying 35% corporate rate with a 35% capital gains rate as dividends are taxed as income would pay 57.75 in taxes for a $100 of income. That equates to a tax rate of 57.75% on income generated by a corporation and distributed to investors. That's very bad. If you reduce the corporate tax rate to 20%, you would pay 48% on distributions. Still not the best way to spend corporate earnings, but a mild improvement. The real benefit will be the income growth which will increase valuations and provide corporations with more capital to spend on expansion. Though it would be better if we found a way to encourage large companies to support smaller businesses rather than use the capital gained to form larger and larger companies that create economies of scale that reduce business creation.

I still support lowering corporate tax rates. Anything to increase business activity and make us more competitive globally.
Aseahawkfan
Legacy
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:38 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:43 am

Can we ever get him to give us a income level on this?


No- the politics of envy will never allow you to corner them- need to stay fluid to be able to fuel the outrage no matter the proposal.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby RiverDog » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:00 am

Consumer confidence has a lot more to do with the stock market than you are giving it credit for. The reason the stock market crashes when a significant event such as 9/11 occurs is because people get nervous about the future, lose confidence in their ability to predict it, and pull their money out by selling their stock. It can set off a chain of events where people panic and start selling, which is why they have 'circuit breakers' in place to shut down the market if a large scale sell off occurs.

I agree about lowering the corporate tax rate as being a good thing overall, but I don't see a pressing need for it at this time. I would prefer to use the lowering of the corporate tax rate a little more selectively. Right now, business is humming and they really don't need it, so I would prefer not to reduce the revenue the government is taking in from it.
User avatar
RiverDog
Legacy
 
Posts: 7232
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

Re: New Tax Bill Released today

Postby burrrton » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:07 am

More fair points, but again, growing the economy at more than stall speed is the only way we're ever going to make headway on our debt (well, that and entitlement reform), and a competitive corporate tax rate is unquestionably a good way to take a swing at that.

I would prefer not to reduce the revenue the government is taking in from it.


When the alternative is putting the money back in the hands of employees and consumers, I sure as hell would.
User avatar
burrrton
Legacy
 
Posts: 2983
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:20 am

PreviousNext

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest