Trump's First Year

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Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:41 pm

Well, Hawktalk, we're still here! One down, three to go!

Although the headlines in some news agencies are very misleading as some are calling Trump's average approval rating "the worst in history" or "worse than any of his predecessors", Trump's average approval rating for his first year is lower by far than any first year POTUS since they started tracking it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... tp&ffid=gz

This is an election year, so it will be interesting to see how things shake out. IMO with those kind of poll numbers, most R's will be distancing themselves from Trump.

Should be interesting.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:01 pm

Approval rating aside, it's pretty tough to characterize his 1st year as anything but successful (or maybe successful-ish?).

I think he's *sounded* like an idiot more often than not, and his incessant tweeting is beneath the dignity of the office to this voter**, and I have no doubt in his ability to fck things up before all is said and done, but to this point, his results (not aspirations, not character) have been inarguably positive.

**Yeah, I know some want to claim he's "redefining" the office, but still...
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:59 pm

One year of Trump completed. Three more years of having to listen to insanity from Trump, the people supporting him, and the people against him. One man triggers the world.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:01 am

burrrton wrote:Approval rating aside, it's pretty tough to characterize his 1st year as anything but successful (or maybe successful-ish?).

I think he's *sounded* like an idiot more often than not, and his incessant tweeting is beneath the dignity of the office to this voter**, and I have no doubt in his ability to fck things up before all is said and done, but to this point, his results (not aspirations, not character) have been inarguably positive.

**Yeah, I know some want to claim he's "redefining" the office, but still...


The only thing he's been able to achieve....other than getting our allies pissed off at us and widening the political divide in this country....is the tax bill. He's been very fortunate to have been in the driver's seat during a very good economy that was nothing of his own doing.

We'll see what happens in the mid terms. As a rule, the party out of power does well in them.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:59 am

Exactly one accomplishment that wasn’t effectively “cause I said so”. And way too much negative to list.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Seahawkgal » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:47 am

RiverDog wrote:
The only thing he's been able to achieve....other than getting our allies pissed off at us and widening the political divide in this country....is the tax bill. He's been very fortunate to have been in the driver's seat during a very good economy that was nothing of his own doing.

We'll see what happens in the mid terms. As a rule, the party out of power does well in them.

So who’s doing was the economy based on? It sure sucked before he took office.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:49 pm

Seahawkgal wrote:So who’s doing was the economy based on? It sure sucked before he took office.


The people running the businesses that are growing. Why would you think a president has much to do with the economy? Most presidents are smart enough to stay hands off when it is good or getting back to good. And even conservative presidents like GW Jr. will step in and do something when it is very bad like just before he left office and just when he took office. As soon as things get moving int the right direction, it's hands off again.

As far as the stock market, that's just the usual enthusiasm on Wall Street driving yet another bubble that will burst and we'll go through all this garbage again.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:52 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Exactly one accomplishment that wasn’t effectively “cause I said so”. And way too much negative to list.


Really? The list was that long. He was that bad this year? Was it his Twitter? Or just the usual media crap you eat like ice cream that's been trying to destroy him and make him look bad since before he took office. He didn't do much. He was well-contained by our checks and balances. Most of what he did was words and not actions that had any real effect. The United States and the world was fine with Trump in office for a year.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:00 pm

RiverDog wrote:The only thing he's been able to achieve....other than getting our allies pissed off at us and widening the political divide in this country....is the tax bill. He's been very fortunate to have been in the driver's seat during a very good economy that was nothing of his own doing.

We'll see what happens in the mid terms. As a rule, the party out of power does well in them.


You really haven't been paying attention have you? The political divide was equally wide or wider during Obama. Do you have any idea how much the right hated Obama? Just because the rhetoric wasn't as bad, doesn't mean the level of hate has changed. I used to wish for Obama to be out of office so my conservative buddies would stop already with the Obama Hate. Now I want Trump out of office so the Left wing rubbish will stop. Then I think back to Bush Jr. and liberal like C-bob (yeah, sure your'e undecided) kept on whining. I've come to the conclusion is the political divide in this nation isn't going to change. It is as intended I guess. It's not worse. It's just as it has been since I've been Bush Jr.

Did Trump tarnish the White House? Yeah, he did with his Twitter and low talk. Did Trump affect the political divide? Nope. These clowns have been doing that to teach other for years with their constant attacks on each other.

As far as pissing off our allies, good. They haven't been very good allies. If you read on how these allies interact with us, you'll see it's mostly about taking our money and thumbing their nose at our policies when we do anything other than what they agree with and want. They don't help us with the United Nations. Besides Britain they don't help us our national defense. Some of these "allies" hid Osama Bin Laden and allowed terrorists to come to our land and kill our people. So let's just say I consider Trump calling people out as a positive that needed to be done.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:03 pm

Why would you think a president has much to do with the economy?


Presidents get both too much and too little credit depending on what they do/say and who you ask, but they *can* affect our economy positively and negatively through regulation/deregulation, taxes, tariffs, and so on.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 pm

America is so much greater don't ya think??... :roll:

8 months from now things are gonna change for him. And not for the better.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:32 pm

America is so much greater don't ya think??...


Inarguably. The only question is how much credit for that you give to Trump, something I don't find that interesting to debate.

8 months from now things are gonna change for him. And not for the better.


That's my feeling, too, although I also think things can change between now and then (both for better and worse).
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:56 pm

The political divide was equally wide or wider during Obama. Do you have any idea how much the right hated Obama? Just because the rhetoric wasn't as bad, doesn't mean the level of hate has changed.


How many protests did you see at Obama's inauguration? Or at Bush 43's, who the libs despised, and like Trump, lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote in the most contentious, longest delayed election result in history? I don't think that there's any question that he's widened the political divide.

Donald Trump is the most divisive POTUS we've ever had, at least in my memory, and that's reflected in his disapproval numbers. He is the most unfavorably viewed candidate/POTUS since they started taking polls on the subject.

The thing I don't like most about Trump is his demeanor and the way he holds himself. The guy is a prick. As you and burrton have pointed out on several occasions, a POTUS does not have as much power to shape event as most people give them credit/blame for. I want my POTUS to be a respectable, dignified person, a leader of people that I can respect. I disliked Slick Willy for much the same reasons that I dislike Trump.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:58 pm

burrrton wrote:Inarguably.



The comic relief this dolt has provided is totally inarguable GOLD.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:48 pm

RiverDog wrote:How many protests did you see at Obama's inauguration? Or at Bush 43's, who the libs despised, and like Trump, lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote in the most contentious, longest delayed election result in history? I don't think that there's any question that he's widened the political divide.

Donald Trump is the most divisive POTUS we've ever had, at least in my memory, and that's reflected in his disapproval numbers. He is the most unfavorably viewed candidate/POTUS since they started taking polls on the subject.

The thing I don't like most about Trump is his demeanor and the way he holds himself. The guy is a prick. As you and burrton have pointed out on several occasions, a POTUS does not have as much power to shape event as most people give them credit/blame for. I want my POTUS to be a respectable, dignified person, a leader of people that I can respect. I disliked Slick Willy for much the same reasons that I dislike Trump.


You're going by protests now?

There were plenty of protests for and against different ideas during Obama concerning immigration, racism, and the like. There were huge protests against the war during Bush Jr. administration. They called him shrub and made fun of how he talked. There were all kinds of idiots using racial epithets during Obama and Obama drove the pro-white, racist, anti-immigrant people to the polls like no other. The right wing despised Obama. Obama in essence created the environment ripe for Trump or a Trump-like president. Do you think this attitude sprouted overnight? It sprouted from eight years dealing with a leftist president beloved by Hollyweird and the left. Given a Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing. Lauded for accomplishing almost nothing. And the main thing you could give Obama credit for is being a respectable, dignified left-wing president.

Sorry, man, I followed the news and listened to the right wingers. They hated Obama. Trump getting elected came because the political divide grew to this level during Obama until it was unleashed electing Trump. Just as Obama was elected because the hate for Bush Jr. and his wars. And Bush Jr. rode the hate of Clinton and his scumbag behavior in the White House.

The political divide has been insane since Slick Willy and only getting worse. I believe the political divide and hate of Obama fueled the Trump victory. We'll see if hate of Trump fuels some other guy into office or the hate from Obama carries on longer.

You really don't seem to realize how much right wing people hated Obama. I grew so damn tired of the racial crap about Obama from right wingers that I was glad when he left. People I'd known for years who had never previously exhibited racist characteristics started to hate Obama so much that I heard stuff out of their mouth I hadn't heard before. Trump winning stems from that hate.

I'm not much buying your narrative. Trump exists because of the political divide created by Obama. Trump tapped into that and rode it to the White House. Even Bush Jr. to a lesser degree fueled Trump with his soft stance on immigration because regardless of what you and I think, there are strong anti-immigrant forces in this nation that vote. That's why I don't much listen to the polls you post. I know these people exist, vote, and are pissed off beyond belief about illegal and abusive immigration.

To sum it up, Trump won the White House because of the political divide created by Obama. He tapped into that racial, conservative, right-leaning angst and anger from 8 years of leftist drivel from the White House and rode it in to DC.

And the next president will ride the political divide created by Trump. It's how you win elections now. Make the previous guy seem like he's horrible, tell the public you're going to change things, get to the White House, engage in lots of stupid fights and get very little done.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:55 pm

burrrton wrote:Presidents get both too much and too little credit depending on what they do/say and who you ask, but they *can* affect our economy positively and negatively through regulation/deregulation, taxes, tariffs, and so on.


They can. But it's still going to come down to businesses doing well whether the regulations are good or bad. You can have the friendliest business regulations and still have a bad economy if the businesses are doing poorly and highly stringent regulation and do well if business is doing well. The economy grows when businesses grow. They don't grow because of friendly taxes. They grow because of new business creation like the Internet or some similarly great invention.

Best thing presidents and congress can do is don't mess with the economy too much. Leave it alone and and let it do what it does including fix itself when it goes wrong. Creative-destruction as Schumpeter analyzed.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:23 pm

You're going by protests now?


There's a difference between the types of protests we've seen for the past 50+ years and what we saw last year leading up to the inauguration. The protests last year were basically against ne man. Other protests, as you noted, all had subjects attached to them. Only the protests advocating the impeachment of Richard Nixon came close to duplicating what we saw a year ago.

Plus I am not just going by protests. His extremely high negative rating is another piece of evidence of the divide I'm eluding to.

Obama in essence created the environment ripe for Trump or a Trump-like president.


Since FDR, there has only been one time where the administrative branch was controlled by the same party for more than two terms (Reagan-Bush, 1980-92). It's almost a given that the opposition party will unseat the incumbent after the 2nd term. It happened after Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy-Johnson, Nixon-Ford, Slick Willy, Bush 43, and now Obama.

The political divide has been insane since Slick Willy and only getting worse.


It started before then. Personally, I think it went all the way back to the SCOTUS nomination of Robert Bork. Since then, we've had bomb throwers in both parties, and gave rise to guys like Newt Gingrich.

You really don't seem to realize how much right wing people hated Obama. I grew so damn tired of the racial crap about Obama from right wingers that I was glad when he left. People I'd known for years who had never previously exhibited racist characteristics started to hate Obama so much that I heard stuff out of their mouth I hadn't heard before. Trump winning stems from that hate.


Oh, I don't disagree with that at all. I have a neighbor that I had to listen to for 8 frigging years, biting my tongue for that long.

To sum it up, Trump won the White House because of the political divide created by Obama. He tapped into that racial, liberal, left-leaning angst and anger from 8 years of leftist drivel from the White House and rode it in to DC.


I think that was one of the factors, but you also have to toss in HRC into the equation, who was a huge lightning rod for the right. If Sanders or Biden was the nominee, I don't think there's any way Trump would have won.

And the next president will ride the political divide created by Trump. It's how you win elections now. Make the previous guy seem like he's horrible, tell the public you're going to change things, get to the White House, engage in lots of stupid fights and get very little done.


Quite possible.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:33 pm

You can have the friendliest business regulations and still have a bad economy if the businesses are doing poorly and highly stringent regulation and do well if business is doing well.


Of course- I'm not saying the economy is dependent on their decision making. I'm merely saying they *can* have an effect. Their decisions may or may not have an effect, but they can, right?
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:34 pm

Largent80 wrote:The comic relief this dolt has provided is totally inarguable GOLD.


Agreed- he's also been *money* for the networks and cable news. Their ratings have never been better, have they?
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:47 pm

burrrton wrote:Of course- I'm not saying the economy is dependent on their decision making. I'm merely saying they *can* have an effect. Their decisions may or may not have an effect, but they can, right?


Sure. FDR's tax policies affected Reagan so deeply he became a staunch anti-tax conservative. They can have an effect.Government policies do have some kind of effect depending on what they're trying to do. And Congress has an effect. And state government policies can have an effect, often even more dramatic for a given state. It all matters. Just the primary driver of growth is well-run businesses growing with new technology.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:01 pm

[quote="RiverDog"][quote]

I don' t want to go back and forth on the small points. I feel Trump is fueling the divide rather to advantage of it. It was there and has been there for a while. He uses it.

My feeling about protests is the left tends to protest and march more than the right. That's why you're seeing these huge protests from the left wing as they did during the war with Bush Jr. in office. The left is loud, obnoxious, and just as irrational as the right, especially Hollyweird. We're seeing the whole group show their behind as the saying goes as they are triggered by Trump. He does it on purpose and uses it to fuel his followers. This is what I see as fake outrage.

Look at what Trump has done so far. Hollywood, a Democratic Bastion, has been gut-punched by sex abuse allegations. A long-term Democratic Senator was forced to step down.

Schumer just made some stupid deal that his own party slammed him for. All I see is Donald Trump working the Democrats like they are his punching bag. It made them look weaker.

We won't know for sure how this goes until the next election, but right now Trump is beating them down. I know a lot of people tout Alabama as some kind of win for the Democrats, whereas I look at that as more of a loss for Republicans. The fact they almost voted in a pedophile into office is a sad state of affairs. Roy Moore shouldn't have come close to winning, yet he almost pulled it off. Then again Seattle voted that pedophile mayor into office.

I guess will concede the political divide is worse because Trump is making it worse by design. We have a president that knows how to trigger the left to make them look more and more stupid, while rallying his own followers with every leftist attack on him. It's like watching a group of enraged Scottish barbarians getting themselves killed on a Roman shield wall because they are so easily enraged, like that humorous scene in Black Adder.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:04 am

burrrton wrote:
Agreed- he's also been *money* for the networks and cable news. Their ratings have never been better, have they?


Thats what I said COMEDY GOLD.

Colbert is awesome. Add Oliver and Maher to that list. It's priceless comedy. Unless you schlob the Rump knob, then it's fake news or some report about the economy being better which everyone knows has nothing to do with Cheeto Jeezus.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:40 am

Largent80 wrote:Colbert is awesome. Add Oliver and Maher to that list. It's priceless comedy.


You and I have a different definition of comedy. I'm sure I haven't watched them as much as you, but when I have, it's looked like 100% "clapter" (not funny, just sarcastic, but appeals to the audience's political leanings, so they clap and laugh as a sign of approval).

Think George Carlin's bit about football/baseball vs Jon Stewart tapping his pencil mugging for the camera (although to be fair, JS was genuinely funny much more often than any of the current crop of 'political comedians').
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:40 pm

Ratings say otherwise.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:58 pm

Largent80 wrote:Ratings say otherwise.


No they don't. You're free to disagree and insist they're truly ha-ha funny, but clapter generates ratings, too.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:11 pm

Russians are now on this forum, hows that for a first year?
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm

Largent80 wrote:Ratings say otherwise.

burrrton wrote:No they don't. You're free to disagree and insist they're truly ha-ha funny, but clapter generates ratings, too.


Funny or not is a subjective analysis, ratings are purely objective, they are what they are whether you like it or not. It's a bit silly to argue against them based on your personal tastes.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:14 pm

I'm not "arguing against ratings", Bob- I'm merely pointing that ratings don't prove or discredit my opinion about the kind of 'comedy' they're providing.

Again, if you find them truly funny, more power to you. You're not alone.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby idhawkman » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:25 pm

burrrton wrote:Approval rating aside, it's pretty tough to characterize his 1st year as anything but successful (or maybe successful-ish?).

I think he's *sounded* like an idiot more often than not, and his incessant tweeting is beneath the dignity of the office to this voter**, and I have no doubt in his ability to fck things up before all is said and done, but to this point, his results (not aspirations, not character) have been inarguably positive.

**Yeah, I know some want to claim he's "redefining" the office, but still...


After Clinton, Obama, Carter and Kennedy you think he's "beneath the dignity of the office?" Wow - just Wow!
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 pm

idhawkman wrote:After Clinton, Obama, Carter and Kennedy you think he's "beneath the dignity of the office?" Wow - just Wow!


I don't think anyone else's actions redefined what we should expect of a POTUS, and yeah, I think his twitter slap fights are beneath the dignity of the office. IMO he's punching down and it makes him look small.

I will say this, though- I *think* he's been improving. I've noticed he's left a couple issues alone lately over which I'd have expected a full Twitter Meltdown™. Never came, though.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:06 am

idhawkman wrote:After Clinton, Obama, Carter and Kennedy you think he's "beneath the dignity of the office?" Wow - just Wow!


Your conservative girdle is showing if you went all the way back to Kennedy and including Carter and Obama in your beneath dignity rating while conveniently forgetting about Tricky Dick and the abuses of that dignified office that he perpetrated.

IMO Donald Trump is further below the dignity of the office than anyone in my memory by a factor of about 10....and that's coming from a person that has yet to vote for a Dem for national office. He's behaving as if he's the host of The Gong Show.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:09 am

LOL, 75% of the new X-Files episode last night was the making fun of Rump. Which of course is a series and not a liberal based talk show. So there goes that theory. It was hilarious.

By the way, I don't argue, except with my wife... :lol:

Y'all can give yourself a wedgie getting worked up about what someone types on a message board and I'll just keep laughing along with everyone else.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:44 am

LOL, 75% of the new X-Files episode last night was the making fun of Rump. Which of course is a series and not a liberal based talk show. So there goes that theory. It was hilarious.


A Hollywood drama series was making fun of a Republican POTUS (surprise!)... and you found it "hilarious".

You just illustrated my point.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:53 am

burrrton wrote:A Hollywood drama series was making fun of a Republican POTUS (surprise!)... and you found it "hilarious".

You just illustrated my point.


You'll have to admit, Donald Trump is a comedian/cartoonist's dream come true. Like Cbob once said, he's like a continous SNL skit.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:28 am

You'll have to admit, Donald Trump is a comedian/cartoonist's dream come true.


Yeah, I think there's plenty of material there- they have to set their hyperbolic hatred aside enough to tune into it, though, and I don't think they (or their writers) do, at least not very often that I've seen.

[edit]

In other words, I don't think they *want* the audience to chuckle at him. They're out of their minds with hatred, and when you hate someone, when you think they're an "existential threat", when you think they're literally dangerous and evil, you're not looking for laughs- you're looking to get everyone to hate him, too, and I think this shows clearly in the "jokes" they come up with.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:43 pm

I hope he doesn't last beyond four years. I can't take all the whining and general stupidity. The United States mostly runs itself. We just need someone up there to smile, say a few presidential things, keep us out of stupid wars, and let this nation run quite for a few decades.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:34 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I hope he doesn't last beyond four years. I can't take all the whining and general stupidity. The United States mostly runs itself. We just need someone up there to smile, say a few presidential things, keep us out of stupid wars, and let this nation run quite for a few decades.


Amen!
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:29 pm

burrrton wrote:LOL, 75% of the new X-Files episode last night was the making fun of Rump. Which of course is a series and not a liberal based talk show. So there goes that theory. It was hilarious.


A Hollywood drama series was making fun of a Republican POTUS (surprise!)... and you found it "hilarious".

You just illustrated my point.[/quote]

No Mr. Dissalusioned. You were describing the shows previously talked about earlier in this thread. I tuned in to watch the X-Files and Your illustration is part of your clouded vision.

You think I was the only one that laughed at that episode?

Oh Puhleese. You said people were "clapping" at sarcasm, there is no clapping here just the mocking of a jackwad that everyone finds funny (except YOU) because of the position this Ultra Tard is in.

Making fun of all of his lies is funny, People that defend him are funny, YOU are funny.

You live in a perpetual cloud dude.

This perfectly describes all of your comments. And even though you dislike me, it's your own perpetuity that creates it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=perpetu ... e&ie=UTF-8

Get used to it, people don't care much for your man.

Hopefully your football acumen is better than what you post here( I haven't seen evidence anywhere in the Hawk forum), because if that's the case, there is such a thing as school. If you can see past the clouds.
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby burrrton » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:34 pm

No Mr. Dissalusioned. You were describing the shows previously talked about earlier in this thread.


LOL. I said people laugh at not-so-funny stuff because of the "clapter" phenomenon (assuages your political leanings), then you describe laughing at a drama series because it assuaged your political leanings.

Again, thanks for perfectly illustrating what I described.

Get used to it, people don't care much for your man.


:) Just because I don't join you and tawk in losing my sh*t over the guy doesn't mean he's "my man", and I've explained that a million times. I don't like him, didn't vote for him, and won't vote for him (unless his next 3 years are like his first- then I'd reluctantly consider it).
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Re: Trump's First Year

Postby Largent80 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:38 pm

burpon, here ya go, perpetuality in it's full expression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBirf4BWew

This is you. Do you wear a wig when you sing it?
Last edited by Largent80 on Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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