School Shooting in Broward, Florida

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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:40 am

Did Trump really mean this, that he thinks there's a link between the amount of time the FBI is spending on the Russia investigation and their failure to respond to tips about the Florida shooter? Or am I missing something?


Sounds like childish, off-base criticism. The FBI is having a very bad couple of weeks, but someone needs to take his phone away from him.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:04 am

burrrton wrote:Feel-good measure:


Well, if you go by the 1994 assault weapons ban, the fact that the Ruger does not have a bayonet mount or grenade launcher differentiates it from the AR-15....as if Cruz wouldn't have bought it had he not been able to affix a bayonent to it.

Although it's admittedly a pretty weak argument, there isn't the same degree of fascination with a Ruger as there is an AR-15. The people we're talking about regarding the school shootings are for the most part demented teens that probably wouldn't think to use a substitute weapon like a Ruger if they were prevented from aquiring an AR-15.

But you have a good point, and it's one of the reasons why I think that when you get down to banning semi automatic weapons, crafting meaningful and easy to understand legislation is problematic.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 pm

Although it's admittedly a pretty weak argument, there isn't the same degree of fascination with a Ruger as there is an AR-15. The people we're talking about regarding the school shootings are for the most part demented teens that probably wouldn't think to use a substitute weapon like a Ruger if they were prevented from aquiring an AR-15.


Agree with the first sentence, disagree with the second. Semi-auto rifles have been used in something like 1/4 of mass shootings, I think. It seems tough to argue mass murderers would say "Eh, F it" if they couldn't get ahold of the scary looking gun, doesn't it?
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:42 pm

burrrton wrote:Agree with the first sentence, disagree with the second. Semi-auto rifles have been used in something like 1/4 of mass shootings, I think. It seems tough to argue mass murderers would say "Eh, F it" if they couldn't get ahold of the scary looking gun, doesn't it?


Not sure. We're talking about some really F-up teens, not a rational person that doesn't give a chit how a gun looks or makes them feel. Maybe they would just say "screw it, if I can't look like a G.I. Joe warrior, I'll try to find something else to satisfy my fantasy." All I'm saying is that there is an obvious difference in images created by the AR-15 and the Ruger you posted, and those images may or may not trigger something inside the mind of a young teen like Cruz. Like I said, I admit that it's a pretty weak argument. I just feel that it should be fleshed out along with any other subtle pieces of the puzzle.

The thread is about school shootings that are carried out mostly by teens. It might be a little easier to address the school shooting problem if we separate out them from other mass murders, ie Las Vegas, the Texas church killings, etc. What do the school shootings have in common?
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:20 pm

Like I said, I admit that it's a pretty weak argument. I just feel that it should be fleshed out along with any other subtle pieces of the puzzle.


Fair.

[edit]

Looking at this page, I don't see a lot of support for the contention that 'assault rifles' are the weapon of choice for deranged kids (or anyone else, really):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_sh ... ted_States

I see a lot of pistols used and *not* a lot of "AR-15 or nothing" murderers, but if you want to take a deeper dive and find otherwise, I'll defer.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:40 pm

burrrton wrote:I see a lot of pistols used and *not* a lot of "AR-15 or nothing" murderers, but if you want to take a deeper dive and find otherwise, I'll defer.


Naw, that's fine. I'm not going to pursue it. Every situation is different. I just think that some of these kids twisted minds might be taking them from reality into some video game, and you don't see many video games featuring a wooden stock, iron sight Ruger.

I have no proof or evidence of the above scenario, nor do I have any desire to research it. It's just a random thought that has occurred to me that I thought was worth adding to the discussion.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby idhawkman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:31 pm

Legislation would only make the outlaws armed. Reminds me of a couple of Clint Eastwood movies where the townfolk were scared of the outlaws that controlled their town until the law man came to take control.

That being said, the law has effectively been muted in our country with the claims of police abuse (which some were legitimate). But when we have approx. 1M lawmen in the U.S. to govern approx. 350M people, the law is pretty much unseen.

Until the "townfolk" rise up together against gangs and outlaws, the sheep will continue to get slaughtered.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:07 pm

I find it odd that when I was growing up, there weren't near this many shootings of this kind and yet we had access to all sorts of weapons. We keep hearing "it's the gun,s it's the guns." Yet the guns were there in 80s and 70s and 60s, yet we didn't see near his kind of deadly attacks as often. Something else has changed in society to cause this, likely a bunch of factors to push these rage attacks up. Likely some combination of medication, family decay, violent games, sheer population size, social media, and individual personality disorders combined with insufficient oversight into weapons ownership to cause these situations to become more prevalent. It's very hard to explain why people are the way they are now. No one factor can account for all these shootings.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:17 pm

If I hear”pray for the victims” or “ there’s no connection to terror” I might shoot myself ....
Seriously I don’t know about one class or another of gun, seems most recent high profile high casualty shoots has involved an AR type weapon. As a lifelong gun owner my views have shifted quite a bit in light of Vegas etc.

it’s too easy to get guns . In japan it’s long guns only, no military style weapons and a hospital administered mental health screen every three years but it’s 10 firearm deaths in a nation of 174 million people .
I’m not for anything like that and with all the illegal iron out there it might have the opposite effect here.

Background checks need to be far better however and it’s proven over and over


I’m sounding the alarm to the NRA and the cold dead hands crowd. Police yourself better or there will be a wave election that will cause draconian changes far beyond anything any gun owner will
Want.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:59 pm

A minor help might be a cooperative effort by the MSM to not publish the name of the shooter. "Shooter A" or "Danville shooter" should be adequate and would not give the murderer 15 minutes of fame.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:07 pm

I find it odd that when I was growing up, there weren't near this many shootings of this kind and yet we had access to all sorts of weapons.


Gun murders have been on a steady decline for decades. Your statement is valid ("of this kind"), but it's worth pointing out that as the number of guns in this country has exploded, gun deaths have continued to go down.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:13 pm

Seriously I don’t know about one class or another of gun, seems most recent high profile high casualty shoots has involved an AR type weapon.


They haven't, and it's not even close. Go read that link I posted for RD.

[edit- actually, that link goes to *school* shootings so might not be most comprehensive, but I still think rifles of any kind have been used in like a quarter of all these tragedies]

I’m sounding the alarm to the NRA and the cold dead hands crowd. Police yourself better...


Why don't you point everyone to, say, the top 5 "cold dead hands crowd" mass murders in the last decade or two.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:14 pm

Old but Slow wrote:A minor help might be a cooperative effort by the MSM to not publish the name of the shooter. "Shooter A" or "Danville shooter" should be adequate and would not give the murderer 15 minutes of fame.


Couldn't agree more.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:36 pm

Old but Slow wrote:A minor help might be a cooperative effort by the MSM to not publish the name of the shooter. "Shooter A" or "Danville shooter" should be adequate and would not give the murderer 15 minutes of fame.

I completely agree. The profit driven media hovers over these tragedies and you just know the next copycat is getting his plan in order
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 pm

While attractive, I don't think that it will work. The media is so broad now, that there will be breaks, but the effort would be appreciated.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:28 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I find it odd that when I was growing up, there weren't near this many shootings of this kind and yet we had access to all sorts of weapons. We keep hearing "it's the gun,s it's the guns." Yet the guns were there in 80s and 70s and 60s, yet we didn't see near his kind of deadly attacks as often. Something else has changed in society to cause this, likely a bunch of factors to push these rage attacks up. Likely some combination of medication, family decay, violent games, sheer population size, social media, and individual personality disorders combined with insufficient oversight into weapons ownership to cause these situations to become more prevalent. It's very hard to explain why people are the way they are now. No one factor can account for all these shootings.


I don't recall a lot of gun shops or shops selling military stype weapons back when I was a kid. I'm not saying that there weren't any, but growing up in the 60's, I don't remember seeing any. But guns in general were a lot easier to get and they were not abused nearly to the same degree that they are today.

In 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK with a military rifle he acquired through mail order for about $12 (the scope drove the price up to around $20, or $160 in today's money). In the same catalog he bought his Italian made WWI vintage weapon, there were other much more efficient military weapons, albeit about twice the cost as the one LHO bought, that were available, such as the semi automatic M1 carbine, the primary weapon used by the US Army 20 years earlier in WW2, or much more modern than the AR-15. So if you were motivated and had some relatively modest financial resources, you could easily acquire military style weapons with absolutely no background checks, waiting periods, or other measures that have been adapted over the past 50+ years that gun violence has taken center stage.

So obviously something's changed in American society. The root cause is not access to military style weaponry. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be looking at legislation to address the problem we now face, but let's be clear that the main problem is NOT access to weapons, and until we do something to address the root cause of this problem, the shootings will continue.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:25 am

I hear all the time “guns haven’t changed, people have”. As a kid who hunted and had a rifle in my car I would agree.

The problem is since people have changed the ease of access to weapons needs to change. Even the NRA backs better background checks . As for AR or equivalent being part of the costume for mass shooters in general recently it’s hard to argue. San Bernardino , Newtown, pulse , vegas, Texas, California which was an unsuccessful attack on a school
But 4 murders, and now this .

I’m not naive enough to think banning a class of weapons or even enhanced background checks will stop all shootings but hindsight shows it would have stopped some . We crash a plane and 100 die and we investigate for years. When kids are getting shot I don’t get the disconnect .
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:46 am

I’m not naive enough to think banning a class of weapons or even enhanced background checks will stop all shootings but hindsight shows it would have stopped some .


I'm all for rigid and thorough BG checks, but I'll ask again: what do you believe banning AR-15s is going to accomplish when they're literally functionally identical to a million other rifles?

Also, we're still waiting on this, aren't we:

Why don't you point everyone to, say, the top 5 "cold dead hands crowd" mass murders in the last decade or two.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:18 pm

What changed? The populace grew up, their eyes were opened to the undisputable fact that our government not only LIES to us occasionally the government LIES to us INCESSANTLY. Our eyes have been opened to the fact the our system IS RIGGED in favor of some at the expense of OTHERS. Some of that has been tolerated since the very beginning of our nation, but, when it became so BLATANT and IN YOUR FACE it just can't be borne.

Now, couple THAT with cutting money for mental health institutions, revolving door jails and prisons, and a general LACK of RESPECT for both our elders and our institutions and you have a large amount of people who are willing to BREAK our nations laws.

What do you EXPECT ??? When the populace sees wealthy Wall Street THIEVES steal BILLIONS and not even get a slap on their hands. When politicians from both the democratic and republican parties line their pockets with money and see nepotism run rampant and witness these people break the "law" with impunity many people are asking themselves "why should we respect and follow the law when none of the "mucky mucks" don't??? Many folks are starting to understand what others have known for quite some time, only a complete SCHMUCK doesn't follow the law if they believe they can "get away" with it. Once you pass a "tipping point" of people who don't believe in the "rule of ;aw" anymore you will witness the END of you society.

THAT is what could happen if things don't change, and change very fast. A big part of that is that people will have to find common ground and build trust on that.

What our enemies are doing is a very old tactic called "divide and conquer". As long as we fight against each other we cannot fight the "real" enemy. Who is the "real" enemy? EZ, anyone who aides an enemy of the U.S.of A. and tries to defeat or weaken us IS an enemy. Oh, and should a person and/or entity attack us in any way that too is the very definition of enemy.

Oh, and ANYONE who would work with and/or give aid and comfort to any foreign government who is attacking us IS the very definition of a traitor and thus should be dealth with as such.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:26 am

Hawktawk wrote:I hear all the time “guns haven’t changed, people have”. As a kid who hunted and had a rifle in my car I would agree.

The problem is since people have changed the ease of access to weapons needs to change. Even the NRA backs better background checks . As for AR or equivalent being part of the costume for mass shooters in general recently it’s hard to argue. San Bernardino , Newtown, pulse , vegas, Texas, California which was an unsuccessful attack on a school
But 4 murders, and now this .

I’m not naive enough to think banning a class of weapons or even enhanced background checks will stop all shootings but hindsight shows it would have stopped some . We crash a plane and 100 die and we investigate for years. When kids are getting shot I don’t get the disconnect .


Best post here so far.

And I will say that we have had at least 3 presidents shot with 2 of them dead, so this has been going on for a long time, and allowed to. We're seeing the results of turning a blind eye and it's pretty sad that kids can't go to school anymore without worrying they will be killed. Bump stocks....what a joke, really????...banning bumpstocks id the best a modern society can do?
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:18 am

Hawktawk wrote:I’m not naive enough to think banning a class of weapons or even enhanced background checks will stop all shootings but hindsight shows it would have stopped some . We crash a plane and 100 die and we investigate for years. When kids are getting shot I don’t get the disconnect .


Basically I agree with your thoughts, but I don't know how you can ascertain with any degree of certainty that "hindsight shows that it would have stopped some." In all likelihood, it probably would have stopped some, but that's as far as I'll go. What could have been done to prevent this last shooting is that the FBI could have acted on the numerous tips they had been receiving about this Cruz character.

One thing that can be done to help defend against these threats is that schools could start allowing teachers and other school employees to carry firearms if they are properly trained and qualified, and they'd have to institute a number of rules, such as always having it on their person and not in their desk drawers, that they don't chamber a round, that they always keep them concealed. I saw where at least one school has a sign posted at their entrance that certain undisclosed staff members are armed and will act to protect their students. Probably not a good solution for every school district, but it's something I feel should be considered as an option.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:14 am

[quote="RiverDog"
One thing that can be done to help defend against these threats is that schools could start allowing teachers and other school employees to carry firearms if they are properly trained and qualified, and they'd have to institute a number of rules, such as always having it on their person and not in their desk drawers, that they don't chamber a round, that they always keep them concealed. I saw where at least one school has a sign posted at their entrance that certain undisclosed staff members are armed and will act to protect their students. Probably not a good solution for every school district, but it's something I feel should be considered as an option.[/quote]

My wife is a professor at Lone Star College and she is appalled at this type of thinking as are all of her colleagues.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:25 am

Largent80 wrote:My wife is a professor at Lone Star College and she is appalled at this type of thinking as are all of her colleagues.


Does she say why? Is she concerned about the weapon falling into the wrong hands, of an accidental shooting, or giving a gun to an "Officer Tackleberry" type of Police Academy fame? Just curious.

I understand that not all schools and institutions would want to adapt such a policy. All I am saying is that it should be an option if the parents/school district/institution feels it is a measure that they'd like to adapt.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:42 am

My wife is a professor at Lone Star College and she is appalled at this type of thinking as are all of her colleagues.


Yes, armed personnel at a facility is such a terrible step to consider to make it safer**.

**Except for literally every facility on the planet wherein security and safety are of high importance.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:43 am

I understand that not all schools and institutions would want to adapt such a policy. All I am saying is that it should be an option if the parents/school district/institution feels it is a measure that they'd like to adapt.


Quit being ridiculous, RD- it's preposterous to suggest our children should be as safe as a worker at the Federal Building.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:30 am

burrrton wrote:Quit being ridiculous, RD- it's preposterous to suggest our children should be as safe as a worker at the Federal Building.


Hehe.

I'm not sure why otherwise rational and intelligent people would be "appalled" at the thought of a teacher or custodian being allowed to carry a concealed sidearm when they encounter armed security guards in other institutions daily. Is there something in the personality of a teacher that makes them different than a security guard that accounts for their uneasiness?

Like I said, it might not be a policy that every parent is comfortable with, but through their elected board members, school districts should have that as an option so long as there is adequete training, certification, and other safeguards no less than what any other person certified to perfrom such a task would be subjected to.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:47 am

I'm not sure why otherwise rational and intelligent people would be "appalled" at the thought of a teacher or custodian being allowed to carry a concealed sidearm when they encounter armed security guards in other institutions daily.


In my experience, it's typically because they're arguing from a position of caricature- they think a teacher with a gun would be like Yosemite Sam, firing 3 shots into the ceiling yelling "YAAAHOOOOO!" after every student's correct answer.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:19 am

Once again, no justification is necessary, this is the way the staff feels there. Y'all can laugh, fart, smell each others farts, or try to "back up" whatever it is you are trying to say.......who cares?

This stuff isn't going to happen anyway. Nothing will get done. It's all WAY too late. Support your NRA, and your militia. Everyone has one right?
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:59 am

CRAZY is doing the same destructive thing repeatedly yet expecting the result to change. Have we NOT done it all the NRA's way? If the NRA has the answer to our "nuts with guns" problem they should put that answer out because what they have been advocating since the 1970's IS NOT WORKING.

The NRA has advocated and worked hard to enact all across this nation law after law, ordinance after ordinance, regulation after regulation that has made it easier and easier for people who should have NO RIGHT TO OWN A FIRE ARM to be able to purchase a fire ARM. The NRA doesn't care if someone who is batshit crazy buys a gun, the NRA only cares should citizens rise up and tries to deny someone who is mentally ill from buying a fire arm. The NRA will then fight for that mentally ill person to be able to BUY a fire arm. It is SICK SICK SICK, yet, there are many who support politically such nonsense.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm

There was an NRA spokesperson on the evening news saying an assault weapons ban would be scapegoating.

That says it all. They don't care how many people die, just keep the guns firing, that's what they care about.

I live in gun nut central, and trust me the majority of these people here have no business with guns.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:37 pm

The NRA doesn't care if someone who is batshit crazy buys a gun


Is it really asking too much for you guys to spend a few minutes learning a little about this?

Here:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2013012 ... d-firearms
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:57 pm

I live in gun nut central, and trust me the majority of these people here have no business with guns.


Let me guess: *you're* ok, though, right?
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:02 pm

burrrton wrote:I live in gun nut central, and trust me the majority of these people here have no business with guns.


Let me guess: *you're* ok, though, right?[/quote]

Yeah, you come into my house uninvited and the results without a gun will be much worse than if I had a gun. I doesn't take a coward with a gun to create mayhem.

Cmon over.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby RiverDog » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Largent80 wrote:Once again, no justification is necessary, this is the way the staff feels there. Y'all can laugh, fart, smell each others farts, or try to "back up" whatever it is you are trying to say.......who cares?

This stuff isn't going to happen anyway. Nothing will get done. It's all WAY too late. Support your NRA, and your militia. Everyone has one right?


I'm not asking you to justify it, all I'm asking for is a rationalization as to why the staff is so dead set against the thought of a teacher(s) carrying a weapon. I wasn't trying to make light of you, your wife, or anyone else opposed to the suggestion.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:45 pm

Largent80 wrote:Yeah, you come into my house uninvited and the results without a gun will be much worse than if I had a gun. I doesn't take a coward with a gun to create mayhem.

Cmon over.


LOL. Take a valium, Francis. I'm merely pointing out that the DO SOMETHING crowd (like you) always thinks everyone else are the irresponsible ones.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:02 pm

burrrton wrote:Yeah, you come into my house uninvited and the results without a gun will be much worse than if I had a gun. I doesn't take a coward with a gun to create mayhem.

Cmon over.


LOL. Take a valium, Francis. I'm merely pointing out that the DO SOMETHING crowd (like you) always thinks everyone else are the irresponsible ones.[/quote]

Take an enema dude from Shameless, all those mass dildo intrusions are clouding your vision. Take Advil before your next violation.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby burrrton » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:35 pm

Largent80 wrote:Take an enema dude from Shameless, all those mass dildo intrusions are clouding your vision. Take Advil before your next violation.


LOL. Ok, I'll do that, largent...
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:50 pm

Good. Glad you finally got a "clear vision" even though it came from behind.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:57 pm

Largent80 wrote:Yeah, you come into my house uninvited and the results without a gun will be much worse than if I had a gun. I doesn't take a coward with a gun to create mayhem.

Cmon over.


This kind of smack is so easy to talk until a guy with a gun really shows up at your house and you're unarmed. You get to watch that person shoot you, then wonder as you die what he will do to your family. Like when the guy with the gun showed up at the grandparents house shot the grandparents and their two four year old grandchildren. Or the guys who showed up at a woman's home, held her at gunpoint, and raped her while her family had to listen. Both of these happened and likely have happened multiple times. You have to be prepared to protect you and yours in this world. Whether you have a gun or not, victory is not assured. It's always better to have a fighting chance than to be powerless against an armed attacker.

I'd rather have a fighting chance in those situations with a gun of my own than a victim or a guy thinking he can stand up to a gun with nothing but BS big talk. Fact is the police or military cannot provide personal defense for everyone, thus you as an American have been given a right to ensure you can defend yourself from a variety of forms of tyranny be it personal attack, governmental oppression, or external invader.
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Re: School Shooting in Broward, Florida

Postby Largent80 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:30 pm

Come on down dude. See what's up for ya

Another one bites the dust. Without a gun.

I'll chop your friggin nut sack off and laugh as I do it.
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