Sancturary Cites/states

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Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:26 am

I was just wondering how any of you all feel about the subject of sanctuary cities and/or states? I have a heart and I have always helped the unfortunate the best that we could but we drew the line and did not want city many of us were born and raised in (Seattle) declare that it is a "sanctuary city" and also our state (Wash.) declare that it too is a "sanctuary state" and what that entails.

We didn't want illegals to be able to get Drivers Licenses, there are no studies that says letting them have DL's leads them to buy car insurance which was the WEAK excuse the lawmakers used to justify letting them drive with a DL.

We also RESENT being called a RACIST just because we INSIST on calling them exactly what they are ILLEGAL ALIENS. One thing that Trump says that we believe in 1000% and that if we don't have any BORDERS then we DO NOT have a country.

Many of those poor unfortunate "undocumented immigrant" who are out there protesting are waving Mexican Flags and many of those agitating these Mexican nationals here in the U.S. say that California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and TEXAS ALL BELONG to Mexico and they plan on taking it back by pouring into the U.S. and become citizens either by birth or wait for the eventual AMNESTY that they are sure will come.

NOT THIS TIME!!! There should be NO AMNESTY this time, we HAVE to pout our foot down and demand that our immigration laws be respected.

Now, Trump legal immigration down by a half is wrong if it is an arbitrary number, but if he can point to a credible study that states that for a short period of time it should be curtailed then I want to see it.

I have no problem with people helping their relatives, cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews along with sisters, brothers and in-laws. After all, did the POTUS just help his In-Laws, Melania's parents receive the proper visa's and start the future citizenship process??? The way it has always worked is just fine with us (my family and I) and I understand they were already ubervetting or what ever Trump called it BEFORE Trump started calling for it.

Any way, I doubt we will all feel the same but I will RESPECT any and all who disagree with how I feel. Oh, and of course the Dreamers not only should be allowed to stay but any that feel they cold pass the citizenship test should be allowed to do so and awarded citizenship promptly upon passage. It makes me sick that any of these "dreamers" have been deported or threatened with deportation.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:58 am

I think how the states interpret, implement and enforce immigration policy should be up to the state government, not the federal government.

Furthermore, if an undocumented immigrant is working, paying taxes and being a productive member of his/her community, just document them! It's gotta be cheaper than sending them away. If they are a criminal or are a burden on society then by all means send them on their way.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:47 am

c_hawkbob wrote:I think how the states interpret, implement and enforce immigration policy should be up to the state government, not the federal government.

Furthermore, if an undocumented immigrant is working, paying taxes and being a productive member of his/her community, just document them! It's gotta be cheaper than sending them away. If they are a criminal or are a burden on society then by all means send them on their way.


I don't agree that it should be the state's responsibility to enforce immigration policy. Except for border states, illegals are crossing sometimes multiple state lines and violating federal laws. State and local governments need to be singing from the same page of music as are the feds, so they need to cooperate with enforcement actions, thus I oppose the actions of these so-called sanctuary cities.

I agree with your second paragraph. Trump has demonized all illegals, characterizing them as a bunch of drug running thugs when the majority are here doing nothing more than seeking a better life for themselves and their families, a very commendable motivation that we're all guilty of. Although I don't like the idea of rewarding illegal entry, those that are law abiding and have sustainable employment should be provided with a relatively uncomplicated avenue to achieve legal status. Perhaps paying a fine or having to perform some sort of community service as a means of reconciling their illegal actions would be appropriate.

I agree with enhancing border security, but I oppose the wall.

I have no sympathy for anyone here illegally that engages in criminal activity, and would even go so far as to support extra constitutional means to deal with them.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:51 pm

Are sanctuary cities just filled with illegal immigrants? The main thing I'm tired of in Seattle is all the wandering drug addicts. Just wandering around begging for money. You can see their drug-addled minds looking for some kind of cash to get their fix. Hands shaking, eyes glazed over, no sense of hygiene, just strung out and looking for dope claiming they want food. You tell you'll buy them some food and they say no, that's ok. Seattle caters to these people allowing them to plague the city.

I've already made it clear how I feel about illegal immigrants. Roughly the same as RD. Not as afraid of Trump's immigration ideas as others. My experience with Trump is that he goes overboard to work crowds. The media and Democrats go overboard taking what he says and using it against him. It's the political game being played. I don't worry about it. We'll see where immigration policy falls eventually.

That's rich the Democrats now talking about State's Rights. When the conservative states want state rights like not having to force religious places to provide services against their beliefs like abortion or shops with religious owners not having to cater weddings, Democrats are against state rights when a state supports the religious person. Now that it is a question of immigration, suddenly hypocrite Democrats are for state rights. That is just rich.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:43 pm

Hypocrisy is politics. Sometimes it makes good politics and sometimes bad, but all sides are hypocrites if it suits them politically.
I think it's a byproduct of the winner take all endgame of todays political scene and I believe it turns a segment of society off from both following the issues and voting.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby burrrton » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:07 pm

I think how the states interpret, implement and enforce immigration policy should be up to the state government, not the federal government.


I'm a solid immigration 'dove', but I don't think there are many things that are more solidly under the jurisdiction of the Federal govt than immigration.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Old but Slow » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:40 pm

I hate this whole dispute. Good thing that our state doesn't need agriculture, and large harvests of fruit and vegetables, because losing those aliens could cost us a bundle. Whew, no worry.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:47 am

Old but Slow wrote:I hate this whole dispute. Good thing that our state doesn't need agriculture, and large harvests of fruit and vegetables, because losing those aliens could cost us a bundle. Whew, no worry.


Even before Trump was elected, they've been cracking down on farmers and orchardists hiring illegals. In 2015, Broetjie Orchards, the largest agricultural employer in the area, was slapped with a $2.25M fine for not assuring their employees were of legal status. And as a 40 year management employee of a large food processor, I can vouch for the fact that hiring practices in the industry have change dramatically since I entered the business back in 1978.

Obviously there's still a lot of illegals able to gain employment as mom and pop firms don't have the resources available to them to screen prospective employees, but there's little doubt that the situation has changed dramatically from the days when I was left by myself to palletize 500 cases/hour when the border patrol stole my crew from me.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:54 pm

Old but Slow wrote:I hate this whole dispute. Good thing that our state doesn't need agriculture, and large harvests of fruit and vegetables, because losing those aliens could cost us a bundle. Whew, no worry.


Those companies pay a lot of money to defeat increases in immigration enforcement so they can exploit illegal immigrant workers. There's a lot of downsides for the illegal immigrants that no one discusses like wage exploitation, abuse, and the like. It's a testament to how horrible the nations they come from are that they would rather live in America as exploited workers than their country as a citizen. It's unfortunate that so many nations run so poorly that they have to run from their home to a new nation to prosper at the lowest levels of that nation. How I wish there weren't so many stupid, corrupt people in these foreign nations that cause them to live cesspools they want to leave.

As much as we complain, even with Trump as President this nation is incredibly well run, especially for its size and population.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:25 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Those companies (agricultural) pay a lot of money to defeat increases in immigration enforcement so they can exploit illegal immigrant workers. There's a lot of downsides for the illegal immigrants that no one discusses like wage exploitation, abuse, and the like. It's a testament to how horrible the nations they come from are that they would rather live in America as exploited workers than their country as a citizen. It's unfortunate that so many nations run so poorly that they have to run from their home to a new nation to prosper at the lowest levels of that nation. How I wish there weren't so many stupid, corrupt people in these foreign nations that cause them to live cesspools they want to leave.


Not from what I've seen, at least not on any type of scale that would qualify it as being widespread. 30-40 years ago, absolutely there was a lot of abuse. But not today, at least not with the larger companies. There's just too many watchdogs out there, from the government to the media to advocacy groups. Additionally, there are a lot of American citizens, seasonal workers many of whom are local residents that speak English and that work shoulder to shoulder with illegal aliens and are a lot more likely to report abuses if they see them.

I personally know people that came into this country illegally and worked in the fields and orchards, so I believe I am somewhat qualified to speak on the subject. They worked long hours for peanuts, but there was nothing illegal or abusive about their situation.

At my former place of business where we traditionally hire immigrants and other entry level workers that are just entering the American work force, we've contracted out our new employee procurement services. We've hired a company that adminsters drug screens, conduct criminal background checks, and verifies an applicant's legal status. They are extremely thorough. In the past 20 years, I know of no one that we hired, either permanently or temporarily, that was not either a citizen or a legal resident.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:06 pm

RiverDog wrote:Not from what I've seen, at least not on any type of scale that would qualify it as being widespread. 30-40 years ago, absolutely there was a lot of abuse. But not today, at least not with the larger companies. There's just too many watchdogs out there, from the government to the media to advocacy groups. Additionally, there are a lot of American citizens, seasonal workers many of whom are local residents that speak English and that work shoulder to shoulder with illegal aliens and are a lot more likely to report abuses if they see them.

I personally know people that came into this country illegally and worked in the fields and orchards, so I believe I am somewhat qualified to speak on the subject. They worked long hours for peanuts, but there was nothing illegal or abusive about their situation.


I view working long hours for peanuts abusive. It's not about beating on them or anything. It's about using them as disposable workers because they lack the ability to pursue work rights due to their illegal status.

At my former place of business where we traditionally hire immigrants and other entry level workers that are just entering the American work force, we've contracted out our new employee procurement services. We've hired a company that adminsters drug screens, conduct criminal background checks, and verifies an applicant's legal status. They are extremely thorough. In the past 20 years, I know of no one that we hired, either permanently or temporarily, that was not either a citizen or a legal resident.


That's good to know. I know there are some issue with orange pickers I heard about southeast. I don't hear about many problems with Washington.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby burrrton » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:57 pm

I view working long hours for peanuts abusive.


If it's unskilled labor, it's not worth more than peanuts in most circumstances, and an income is not abuse.

Note that I say that as someone who is exceedingly sympathetic to their situation, and I have a great deal of respect for them. Around here during the summer, you see 6 of them packed into a 20 year old Accord heading to work at 5am, and I cheer them on making better lives for themselves.

I think you insult them treating them like your retarded little brother- when they don't have any other way of making money, peanuts is *treasure* to them until such time as they become more marketable.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:00 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I view working long hours for peanuts abusive. It's not about beating on them or anything. It's about using them as disposable workers because they lack the ability to pursue work rights due to their illegal status.


When I was in high school and college, during wheat harvest, which normally lasted about 6 weeks, it was not uncommon for me to work seven 14 hour days per week, or 96 hours, and at that time, farm labor was exempt from overtime, so you're not going to get a lot of sympathy from me if your only criteria for abuse is long hours for minimum wage.

The truth is that if you were to cut back on a migrant or seasonal worker's hours, they would simply go somewhere else because they can't make as much money. They want long hours. Farmers and orchardists, on the other hand, do everything in their power to restrict the number of hours their workers put in. Labor cost is one of the few variables a farmer has that he can control and can make or break their operation.

Besides, anyone in this state 16 years and older has to be paid minimum wage, and at $11.50/hr, our state has the highest minimum wage in the country. So we're really not talking about peanuts. They are well paid considering the skill level required of their work.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:10 pm

RiverDog wrote:When I was in high school and college, during wheat harvest, which normally lasted about 6 weeks, it was not uncommon for me to work seven 14 hour days per week, or 96 hours, and at that time, farm labor was exempt from overtime, so you're not going to get a lot of sympathy from me if your only criteria for abuse is long hours for minimum wage.

The truth is that if you were to cut back on a migrant or seasonal worker's hours, they would simply go somewhere else because they can't make as much money. They want long hours. Farmers and orchardists, on the other hand, do everything in their power to restrict the number of hours their workers put in. Labor cost is one of the few variables a farmer has that he can control and can make or break their operation.

Besides, anyone in this state 16 years and older has to be paid minimum wage, and at $11.50/hr, our state has the highest minimum wage in the country. So we're really not talking about peanuts. They are well paid considering the skill level required of their work.


You said peanuts, right? Glad to hear their situation is better now. From what I"ve seen of our government, they are obtaining more help here than many places.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:16 pm

burrrton wrote:If it's unskilled labor, it's not worth more than peanuts in most circumstances, and an income is not abuse.


I disagree. I believe an income can be an abuse, especially if forced upon a group due to their inability to pursue legal recourse or access to the market due to their legal status. There have been numerous examples of compensation abuses for a variety of reasons in history.

I think you insult them treating them like your retarded little brother-


Not sure where you're getting this interpretation from.

when they don't have any other way of making money, peanuts is *treasure* to them until such time as they become more marketable.


Wage levels should be monitored for exploitative ranges due to lack of access to the markets due to legal status. Immigration used to maintain a lower class of worker is exploitative, even with the occasional story where some exploited immigrant worker's child working their way up. I do not want us having an exploited workforce like other nations I've read about. It's not the kind of scumbaggery I want in America as much as we can prevent it.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby burrrton » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:09 pm

Not sure where you're getting this interpretation from.


And I think it's obvious.

Quit treating them like they're 5-year-olds. They come here because they know they can make in a day what it would have taken them a month to make in their home countries. Sorry, but low-skill jobs don't become upper management positions because you feel sorry for them.

They don't need or want your pity. Quit insulting them.

[edit]

Here's a challenge- get on Craigslist and look for cheap lawn maintenance. If your area is anything like around here, you'll have more than your share of (likely) illegal workers for hire.

Now tell everyone why you don't pay him $100 every week for a couple hours on your lawn. I'll wait.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:You said peanuts, right? Glad to hear their situation is better now. From what I"ve seen of our government, they are obtaining more help here than many places.


When I said "peanuts", I was referring to illegals. Our discussion moved to legal immigrants, green card holders, and permanent residents that work at seasonal jobs for large employers or small ones that are above board with their employment practices. If you're talking about illegals, they're probably working for private individuals or small businesses, such as burrton's example...the scores of landscaping and lawn maintenance companies in our area...and the owner of the company, usually a Hispanic himself, is probably paying them under the table at somewhat less than minimum wage, hence peanuts.

As far as I'm concerned, our efforts on illegal immigration enforcement ought to be focused mostly on law breaking activity instead of casting such a wide net as Trump has advocated. I don't think that there's a single one of us that wouldn't do what many of these folks do if we were in their situation.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm

burrrton wrote:And I think it's obvious.

Quit treating them like they're 5-year-olds. They come here because they know they can make in a day what it would have taken them a month to make in their home countries. Sorry, but low-skill jobs don't become upper management positions because you feel sorry for them.

They don't need or want your pity. Quit insulting them.


If this is your dumb interpretation of what I stated? I'm not treating the immigrants driven from their nation being exploited by the illegal labor market well enough. My bad for not wanting to see them being exploited. I forgot exploitation is just them working hard for "treasure" doing your lawn.

Here's a challenge- get on Craigslist and look for cheap lawn maintenance. If your area is anything like around here, you'll have more than your share of (likely) illegal workers for hire.

Now tell everyone why you don't pay him $100 every week for a couple hours on your lawn. I'll wait.


First, I'd do it myself.

Second, I wouldn't pay some exploitative wage to Mexicans. Why? I'm half-Mexican, 3rd generation. I don't like seeing most of what I see in this immigration debate because I know it's BS first-hand. It's BS on both sides. The vilifying of Mexicans by the anti-immigration crowd is garbage. The "they are all dreamers" crap by the left is garbage. The reality is Mexico has become an economically divided cesspool between rich and poor riddled with drug traffickers, almost like a war torn nation. This economic divide is driving Mexicans here illegally just to survive. They're not dreaming, they're just running from a bad place.

Sorry if I have no interest in exploiting illegals because a guy like yourself feels good and cheers out his window when some hard-working Mexicans making their 3 dollars an hour "treasure" are cutting his lawn, but I don't. Either stop Mexicans from coming here by shoring up the border and doing the Fed Government's job of protecting our borders or allow them legal access to the markets so they aren't being exploited. I'd say this for all immigrants including those that are brought over by Indians looking to exploit the poverty of that nation or any nation for that matter. Allowing impoverished nations to be exploited by wealthier nations is garbage. I don't care how it happens, I don't want some funnel for near slave labor occurring in this nation again.

We differ on what we consider exploitation. Big surprise.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby burrrton » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:09 pm

My bad for not wanting to see them being exploited. I forgot exploitation is just them working hard for "treasure" doing your lawn.


A low wage isn't exploitation, and a paycheck *is* treasure to someone who's otherwise broke. Sorry if that doesn't give you the opportunity to white-knight for hard-working adults.

Second, I wouldn't pay some exploitative wage to Mexicans.


Neither would I- I'd pay them fair market value for their labor (and do).

That said, that's not what I asked you to do- explain why you wouldn't pay someone $500 to mow your lawn. That's roughly what it'd cost you for me to do it, so should they make that much for a couple hours of their time, too? If not, why not?

We differ on what we consider exploitation.


We sure as hell do.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby RiverDog » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:40 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I wouldn't pay some exploitative wage to Mexicans. Why? I'm half-Mexican, 3rd generation.


I'm going to correct that for you, because I think you're better than that.

You wouldn't pay exploitive wages not because you are half Mexican. You wouldn't pay them exploitive wages because it's not morally right. Otherwise, it sounds very selfish, that all you care about is those that are of your own blood.

And another thing: We're not talking just about Mexicans. There are lots and lots of Asian and eastern European immigrants in this country, both legal and illegal, along with non Mexican Hispanics.
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Re: Sancturary Cites/states

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 pm

About skills. During the '80s while between jobs, and sending out applications, I worked thinning apples in the Wenatchee Valley. My nephew had the contract for the orchard or he would never have hired me. I worked my arse off, but the experienced workers could do 3 trees before I could do one, and then they would clean up mine. Putting the ladder in the right place was a key, and as much as I worked at it, and wanted to do what they did, I never measured up. They treated me great, never complained, and I gained a lot of respect for those workers. There's nothing like experience, on many levels.
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