Epstein Case - Twists and Turns

[idhawkman]

Now things might be changing some. Apparently Epstein's autopsy found multiple broken bones in his neck:

One of the broken bones in Epstein's neck was the hyoid, according to The (Washington) Post. This type of fracture is associated with both suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation but is more commonly related to the latter, Jonathan Arden, the president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, told The Post.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeffrey ... ort-2019-8

It doesn't rule out suicide, but it happens more often in strangulations than it does in hangings. That's the type of evidence I'm referring to that would be required for me to ascribe to a conspiracy theory. The next step would be to find out how a person(s) might have gained access.

We'll see what else develops. Stay tuned.

BTW, that information was available yesterday morning which may have added to the confusion of your stance since I believe a number of people already knew it.

[idhawkman]

I still want to know why he was taken off suicide watch so quickly after his first unsuccessful attempt and why he was not either assigned a cellmate or put back on 24/7 watch once his cellmate was moved. Epstein had to be one of if not the highest profile prisoner in their charge, yet they seem so complacent.

I already told you why he was taken off the suicide watch but again so you don't have to look it up, after 72 hours he was evaluated and deemed not to be a risk to himself by a qualified medical person. Also, on suicide watch he has to have a cell mate and most other prisoners don't like pedophiles and molesters and can be bought to do the deed anyways. So in order not to have a cell mate who would gladly do the job, he had to be taken off suicide watch. The bigger question is why wasn't the cameras working outside his cell and in the common areas?

Once his bail was denied, Epstein realized that he was never going to see the light of day again. There was zero chance that he was going to receive a favorable sentence where he could be out in less than 10 years. It's very hard to understand why prison officials wouldn't have come to that realization as well, especially after his first unsuccessful suicide attempt.

There is some suspicion that the first attempt wasn't a suicide attempt but rather the cell mate he had was an ex cop who was on trial for a quadruple murder and other heinous crimes. I imagine you could get him to do the job in exchange for all his witnesses in his trial forgetting what they know.

I'm still not buying the conspiracy theory, but I'm not closing my mind to it either. The only plausible theory, if there is one, is that it's possible that prison officials were bribed or coerced to put Epstein into a situation where he could kill himself. But that would take the cooperation of a number of employees, and it's unlikely that they'd be able to keep such a conspiracy under wraps.

Which is why I said watch the papers to see how many of the people who were working that night have fatal accidents over the coming weeks and months.

[Aseahawkfan]

ASF, I assume you mean that his motive for hanging himself is that its less painful than what might happen to him in prison...would he have been with other inmates?

I mean it more as a Godfather type of option. As in someone explained to him he has been caught and he is absolutely finished. His options are to try to sell out some powerful people for a reduced sentence who will kill him painfully or to take himself out and end the investigation or mostly end it. He chose option 2. The only way Epstein was getting any sentence reduction was to bring down a lot of powerful people with him. Those people must have been powerful enough that he knew he was only going to get out of this one way: death. How he died was up to him. He chose the easier way out maybe.

Or who knows. Maybe some people did show up to his cell setting up the guards with an alibi and making sure the cameras didn't work, then hung him. I'm sure there are professionals who can do this as well as needed.

Either way the case mostly died with him and I don't see too many people overly outraged other than the some token words. I guess we'll see for sure if we get another Congressional investigation or a Department of Justice deep investigation rather than a token investigation. I personally think no one wants this to keep going other than the American people.

[RiverDog]

Now things might be changing some. Apparently Epstein's autopsy found multiple broken bones in his neck:

One of the broken bones in Epstein's neck was the hyoid, according to The (Washington) Post. This type of fracture is associated with both suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation but is more commonly related to the latter, Jonathan Arden, the president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, told The Post.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeffrey ... ort-2019-8

It doesn't rule out suicide, but it happens more often in strangulations than it does in hangings. That's the type of evidence I'm referring to that would be required for me to ascribe to a conspiracy theory. The next step would be to find out how a person(s) might have gained access.

We'll see what else develops. Stay tuned.

BTW, that information was available yesterday (Thursday) morning which may have added to the confusion of your stance since I believe a number of people already knew it.

If anyone's confused, it's you. If you would have checked the date on my post, you would see that I wrote that on Thursday morning, not Friday.

[idhawkman]

Now things might be changing some. Apparently Epstein's autopsy found multiple broken bones in his neck:

One of the broken bones in Epstein's neck was the hyoid, according to The (Washington) Post. This type of fracture is associated with both suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation but is more commonly related to the latter, Jonathan Arden, the president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, told The Post.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeffrey ... ort-2019-8

It doesn't rule out suicide, but it happens more often in strangulations than it does in hangings. That's the type of evidence I'm referring to that would be required for me to ascribe to a conspiracy theory. The next step would be to find out how a person(s) might have gained access.

We'll see what else develops. Stay tuned.

BTW, that information was available yesterday (Thursday) morning which may have added to the confusion of your stance since I believe a number of people already knew it.

If anyone's confused, it's you. If you would have checked the date on my post, you would see that I wrote that on Thursday morning, not Friday.

Not confused at all. I wrote it on Friday stating that it was widely spread on Thurs. Morning news but it broke on Wed night. You posted at 8:11 PDT which is 11:11 EDT when they are already into the mid day news cycle. Your news outlets are giving you stale news.

[RiverDog]

If anyone's confused, it's you. If you would have checked the date on my post, you would see that I wrote that on Thursday morning, not Friday.

Not confused at all. I wrote it on Friday stating that it was widely spread on Thurs. Morning news but it broke on Wed night. You posted at 8:11 PDT which is 11:11 EDT when they are already into the mid day news cycle. Your news outlets are giving you stale news.

You chastised me on Friday that the info was available "yesterday", meaning Thursday. You said nothing about it being available on Wednesday night.

I first saw the news of Epstein's autopsy finding broken bones in his neck on Thursday morning 8/15, less than half a day if I accept your word that it was available Wednesday night. That's hardly stale news, especially considering that I rarely post in here in the evenings.

Besides, what difference does it make if my comments were based on news that broke a few hours earlier or half a day earlier? Was I not the first one in this thread to comment on that information? Are you trying to discredit me?

[Hawktawk]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-jef ... 0-minutes/

Interesting listen. Ill see what kind of mood i'm in on Sunday around 6 I might tune in to this.

[RiverDog]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-jeffrey-epstein-cell-sunday-on-60-minutes/

Interesting listen. Ill see what kind of mood i'm in on Sunday around 6 I might tune in to this.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll set it to record.

Edit: I just saw some previews to the episode. If you're a conspiracy theorist, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[RiverDog]

I watched the episode. Kind of a nothing burger, more of a mind teaser than anything else. A lot of information that might clear up some of the irregularities is being withheld because of the trials of the two guards that were on duty that night. But some of the stuff they found showed further just how bungled the imprisonment of Epstein was, not treating the jail cell as a crime scene and moving the dead body, electrical cords strung around, etc.

However, I saw no new evidence that a conspiracy was involved. I already knew that the type of neck fracture was unusual for a self inflicted wound.

[c_hawkbob]

I watched the episode. Kind of a nothing burger, more of a mind teaser than anything else. A lot of information that might clear up some of the irregularities is being withheld because of the trials of the two guards that were on duty that night. But some of the stuff they found showed further just how bungled the imprisonment of Epstein was, not treating the jail cell as a crime scene and moving the dead body, electrical cords strung around, etc.

However, I saw no new evidence that a conspiracy was involved. I already knew that the type of neck fracture was unusual for a self inflicted wound.

I didn't watch the show you're talking about so I can only imagine that they did not have the autopsy photos that were released yesterday because those make it an absolute certainty that he was killed with some sort of wire garrot or electrical cord (NOT a bed sheet) and that there is indeed a (very clumsy) cover up in place.

I won't post a link but they're not hard to google.

[RiverDog]

I didn't watch the show you're talking about so I can only imagine that they did not have the autopsy photos that were released yesterday because those make it an absolute certainty that he was killed with some sort of wire garrot or electrical cord (NOT a bed sheet) and that there is indeed a (very clumsy) cover up in place.

I won't post a link but they're not hard to google.

Actually they did show the autopsy photo of Epstein's neck, and yes, you're right, the strangulation device and wounds did not appear to match up as it seemed too thin for a bedsheet rope. Plus the wound, according to celebrity pathologist Michael Baden, wasn't in a normal location for self strangulation.

However, that is not evidence of a conspiracy or a cover up, just an autopsy irregularity that has yet to be explained. Unfortunately, we're going to have to wait for the trials of the two guards and the ongoing investigations of the FBI and DOJ before we can have access to all the evidence, something we need before we start jumping to conclusions. I want to hear how the medical examiner determined that they were "confident" that Epstein's death was a suicide. So far, they haven't been allowed to give a full and complete explanation. Also, there's hundreds of hours of surveillance video that has not been released to the public which could shed some light on some of these irregularities.

[c_hawkbob]

However, that is not evidence of a conspiracy or a cover up, just an autopsy irregularity that has yet to be explained.

I could not possibly disagree with you more. It amazes me what you seem capable of overlooking sometimes.

[RiverDog]

I could not possibly disagree with you more. It amazes me what you seem capable of overlooking sometimes.

I'm not overlooking anything. Did I not acknowledge the autopsy photo and even volunteer other suspicious information regarding the strangulation wound?

I simply want to hear/see all the evidence before making up my mind. The office of medical examiner that performed the autopsy and concluded with confidence that the cause of death was suicide made a statement in response to the 60 Minutes episode:

“We can’t answer more specific questions around this ongoing investigation at this time, but we refer you to our previous statements,” the medical examiner’s office told the Washington Examiner on Monday.

When asked if this meant Sampson was standing by her findings that Epstein killed himself, the representative replied: “Yes, that is fair.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... in-suicide

One would have to assume that this medical examiner is a pretty competent individual or else she wouldn't have been assigned to this case. I want to hear why she came to her conclusion, of which she seems pretty confident about.

[c_hawkbob]

And I say other evidence is not necessary in the determination of a cover up. At all. It is simply not possible for those wounds to have been made by a suicide, especially not one with a bed sheet. And those dependencies rise far beyond the level of autopsy inconsistencies!

Somebody is clearly lying here and others are clearly abetting that effort that is what a cover up is! More information will aid in determining how far and how high up the conspiracy goes, but IMO it's existence cannot be denied.

[RiverDog]

And I say other evidence is not necessary in the determination of a cover up. At all. It is simply not possible for those wounds to have been made by a suicide, especially not one with a bed sheet. And those dependencies rise far beyond the level of autopsy inconsistencies!

Somebody is clearly lying here and others are clearly abetting that effort that is what a cover up is! More information will aid in determining how far and how high up the conspiracy goes, but IMO it's existence cannot be denied.

If what you say is true, ie that it is not possible for those wounds to be made by a suicide, then that leaves just two possible conclusions: Either the medical examiner is incompetent or she is in on a cover-up/conspiracy, perhaps an accessory to murder.

I will allow for one possible cover-up, and that is the prison staff could be covering up their own ineptitude. Against protocol, the body was moved from the jail cell before investigators could arrive. There's also some items in the jail cell photo, like an electrical cord, that should not be in any jail cell, let alone this one. That has not been explained and none of the staff is allowed to comment until the investigation is complete. We have not seen all of the security video that would have recorded the guards and other staff movements.

Let's wait and hear what the medical examiner has to say and for the other evidence to be released and hear the explanations of the evidence that look and sound suspicious.

[c_hawkbob]

You go ahead and wait. I don't need to see other security video and I don't care who or who all are lying. I know that someone is lying and while it's not difficult imagine why, more information will surely give us the who (for that I will wait).

[Aseahawkfan]

I think he was killed myself. Whether or not we ever find out exactly who did it is unlikely. Even if they offer some patsy for the killings, I don't think they get the people behind it. The man's dead and it was likely one of those movie type of a phone call with a few words made by a few people without much spoken set thing in motion. It amounted to get rid of this guy before this blows up into something bigger.

The lesson is the same one we've seen for years: piss off or put at risk the wrong people and you will end up dead with nothing to show for it no matter who you are. So many of the people who were involved with Epstein have the juice to end him even in a lock up facility like he was in that the list of suspects is long.

Not even billions will keep you safe once you're on the hit list of a group more powerful than you.

[RiverDog]

I think he was killed myself. Whether or not we ever find out exactly who did it is unlikely. Even if they offer some patsy for the killings, I don't think they get the people behind it. The man's dead and it was likely one of those movie type of a phone call with a few words made by a few people without much spoken set thing in motion. It amounted to get rid of this guy before this blows up into something bigger.

The lesson is the same one we've seen for years: piss off or put at risk the wrong people and you will end up dead with nothing to show for it no matter who you are. So many of the people who were involved with Epstein have the juice to end him even in a lock up facility like he was in that the list of suspects is long.

Not even billions will keep you safe once you're on the hit list of a group more powerful than you.

Obviously there was a motive for a lot of very powerful people to bump off Epstein, and I've heard conspiracy theories implicating both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Social media is running wild with them. Motive is the easiest piece of the puzzle to solve.

So far there is not any indisputable evidence that it wasn't a suicide. We have a single autopsy photo, out of a dozen or so that are taken, that shows a wound that, according to some, is not consistent with self strangulation. There are several procedures that were not followed by prison staff that have yet to be explained. There are photos of the jail cell that shows some items that shouldn't be there. The instrument of death does not appear to match the wound on the neck shown in the one autopsy photo that's been disclosed.

I want to hear from the medical examiner as to why she concluded with such a high degree of confidence that Epstein killed himself. Until I hear her defend her work, I am not comfortable with discarding her opinion in favor of the opinion of an 85 year old celebrity pathologist, who himself wouldn't even say that Epstein's death wasn't a suicide, only that some of the evidence is more consistent with a homicide. I want to know what, if anything, is on the hundreds of hours of video tape that they are withholding as evidence in the upcoming trial of the 2 prison guards. I want to hear from the prison guards themselves.

The investigation is ongoing and there are two guards that are awaiting trial. All we've seen is a couple of teasers in a movie trailer.

[Aseahawkfan]

Obviously there was a motive for a lot of very powerful people to bump off Epstein, and I've heard conspiracy theories implicating both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. Social media is running wild with them. Motive is the easiest piece of the puzzle to solve.

So far there is not any indisputable evidence that it wasn't a suicide. We have a single autopsy photo, out of a dozen or so that are taken, that shows a wound that, according to some, is not consistent with self strangulation. There are several procedures that were not followed by prison staff that have yet to be explained. There are photos of the jail cell that shows some items that shouldn't be there. The instrument of death does not appear to match the wound on the neck shown in the one autopsy photo that's been disclosed.

I want to hear from the medical examiner as to why she concluded with such a high degree of confidence that Epstein killed himself. Until I hear her defend her work, I am not comfortable with discarding her opinion in favor of the opinion of an 85 year old celebrity pathologist, who himself wouldn't even say that Epstein's death wasn't a suicide, only that some of the evidence is more consistent with a homicide. I want to know what, if anything, is on the hundreds of hours of video tape that they are withholding as evidence in the upcoming trial of the 2 prison guards. I want to hear from the prison guards themselves.

The investigation is ongoing and there are two guards that are awaiting trial. All we've seen is a couple of teasers in a movie trailer.

I doubt anyone wants too much more revealed unless they can pin it on some opponent. This is rich, powerful person hardball. The most dangerous hardball there is.

[RiverDog]

I doubt anyone wants too much more revealed unless they can pin it on some opponent. This is rich, powerful person hardball. The most dangerous hardball there is.

Oh, I don't doubt that there was a Bill Clinton, a Donald Trump, a Prince Andrew, and/or who knows else that breathed a sigh of relief when news of Epstein's death broke.

The two guards trial date is set for April 20th. Let's agree to revisit the issue after we have some more information, see if anyone's opinion has changed.

[Aseahawkfan]

Oh, I don't doubt that there was a Bill Clinton, a Donald Trump, a Prince Andrew, and/or who knows else that breathed a sigh of relief when news of Epstein's death broke.

The two guards trial date is set for April 20th. Let's agree to revisit the issue after we have some more information, see if anyone's opinion has changed.

This will probably end up one of those endless conspiracy theory situations. Hollywood will probably make a few movies or so. He'll be sort of the exclamation point on the biggest portion of the metoo# movement.

[RiverDog]

This will probably end up one of those endless conspiracy theory situations. Hollywood will probably make a few movies or so. He'll be sort of the exclamation point on the biggest portion of the metoo# movement.

Yup. Marilyn Monroe, Elvis, Jimmy Hoffa, JFK.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... urder.html

I've come to believe that Epstein was in fact murdered in a federal facility by god knows who but there had to be lots of people in on it. Surely it benefits many wealthy evil people of all political persuasions and every walk of life. Much as Ukraine this calls out for an independent prosecutor but fat chance with the Walrus as a gatekeeper.

We live in bizarro world

[c_hawkbob]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894685/The-burst-capillaries-Epsteins-eyeballs-pathologists-say-suggests-murder.html

I've come to believe that Epstein was in fact murdered in a federal facility by god knows who but there had to be lots of people in on it. Surely it benefits many wealthy evil people of all political persuasions and every walk of life. Much as Ukraine this calls out for an independent prosecutor but fat chance with the Walrus as a gatekeeper.

We live in bizarro world

Him getting offed in prison is about the least bizarro thing about his whole story. And it didn't have to be all the people that wanted him dead that killed him. It could have been, and in fact more likely was, just one of them. Almost all of them had plenty of resources to get it done.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wouldn't have bet more than a $1 that Epstein was going to get offed. Being able to provide evidence that some rich and powerful person is a pedophile trafficking and abusing young girls in a trial is about as bad as it gets. No way that guy was getting a chance to go to trial or delve into his associations too deeply.

World been this way a long time. Hawktawk. History books filled with this type of stuff. Yet we're still in a far better world than we've ever been in. I doubt there will ever be a time when we won't have stuff like this happening. Too many humans with sick desires that they find a way to feed.

[Hawktawk]

I wouldn't have bet more than a $1 that Epstein was going to get offed. Being able to provide evidence that some rich and powerful person is a pedophile trafficking and abusing young girls in a trial is about as bad as it gets. No way that guy was getting a chance to go to trial or delve into his associations too deeply.

World been this way a long time. Hawktawk. History books filled with this type of stuff. Yet we're still in a far better world than we've ever been in. I doubt there will ever be a time when we won't have stuff like this happening. Too many humans with sick desires that they find a way to feed.

You called this Asea. I really never believed they would actually be able to do it or would have the balls.

As for us being in "a far better world than we've ever been in" you really lost me there.....Id say in the ways that matter most which is charity, honesty, common decency, moral compass and so forth it's never been worse. American citizens and politicians are apathetic or worse, selfish and transactional,greedy and morally bankrupt or at least apathetic about those who are. Only if your idea of best is technology or the markets is it the best ever.

[Aseahawkfan]

You called this Asea. I really never believed they would actually be able to do it or would have the balls.

As for us being in "a far better world than we've ever been in" you really lost me there.....Id say in the ways that matter most which is charity, honesty, common decency, moral compass and so forth it's never been worse. American citizens and politicians are apathetic or worse, selfish and transactional,greedy and morally bankrupt or at least apathetic about those who are. Only if your idea of best is technology or the markets is it the best ever.

You gotta stop buying into the media driven BS and read your history books. There is more charity, a better standard of living, more people being fed, less war, and a more focused, united, and agreeable attempt to help humans than at any point in history.

I know you and most of older folks grew up watching TV shows like Little House on the Prairie, The Brady Bunch, Andy Griffith, and the like, but those shows were shows. When you look at the real history of the times those shows were made int, you''re looking rampant acceptable racism, Vietnam and other wars before it, ghettos, mistreatment of women, poorer nations all around, South African Apartheid, The Cold War, JFK sleeping around with Marilyn Monroe, presidential assassinations, and the like.

Sometimes I think people are overwhelmed by the speed and general material generation of the media nowadays. They are inundated with negative news that didn't exist when they were young because they did not have the Internet and the 24 hour news cycle. Even with all this material we're getting, the world is still far, far better and more people are being helped than at any point in history. We are better morally than before even with less religious people. There is a very pro human philosophy among the people of the world that is being pushed across all nations by the advent of social media so that even folks living in China, Russia, and nearly every other place know there are more free and better ways to live.

And Trump, he's small potatoes. You having lived longer than me should be able to see that. You were alive during the Cold War when Russia and America were feuding across many nations fueling military strife. It's far more stable around the world than it was regardless of how many media pundits try to say otherwise.

I think a lot of people are always looking for the worst spun up by the media. If you took a step away from the constant news cycle trying to drag you in ten different ways and looked at the world and how stable it is, you would feel better. Especially in a nation as insulated from suffering as the United States where most of the suffering is self-inflicted.

[RiverDog]

As for us being in "a far better world than we've ever been in" you really lost me there.....Id say in the ways that matter most which is charity, honesty, common decency, moral compass and so forth it's never been worse. American citizens and politicians are apathetic or worse, selfish and transactional,greedy and morally bankrupt or at least apathetic about those who are. Only if your idea of best is technology or the markets is it the best ever.

I know you and most of older folks grew up watching TV shows like Little House on the Prairie, The Brady Bunch, Andy Griffith, and the like, but those shows were shows. When you look at the real history of the times those shows were made int, you''re looking rampant acceptable racism, Vietnam and other wars before it, ghettos, mistreatment of women, poorer nations all around, South African Apartheid, The Cold War, JFK sleeping around with Marilyn Monroe, presidential assassinations, and the like.

While it's true to a certain extent in that the media and television producers during the post war era until the early 60's yearned to produce material that showed an idyllic lifestyle, you got the generation wrong. My parents generation was the one that was brainwashed into believing that life was a bowl of cherries. Hawktalk and my generation, the baby boomers, cut our teeth during the Vietnam era, the civil rights movement, campus protests, and Watergate. As a group, we grew up questioning authority, and indeed, I had many a dinner table argument with my old man over subjects like Vietnam and race relations, arguments my dad would never dreamed of attempting with his father. The motto back then was "don't trust anyone over 30".

And Trump, he's small potatoes. You having lived longer than me should be able to see that. You were alive during the Cold War when Russia and America were feuding across many nations fueling military strife. It's far more stable around the world than it was regardless of how many media pundits try to say otherwise.

I wouldn't go quite so far as saying that Trump is small potatoes, but I agree that in general that his effect is overstated. I also agree that the world is as stable now as it has been at any time since the end of WW2, with an occasional blip now and then, most notably 9/11.

[I-5]

Reviving this old thread now that after years of vehement dial that he had anything to do with 16 year old Virgina Giuffre, let alone had sex with her, Prince Andrew settles out of court with his accuser for roughly $16M...a pathetic sum to buy the truth that would have brought down the House of Windsor. Obviously it was enough for her, but quite disappointing from a public standpoint. He's basically admitting that yes, he does know her, and wants to shut her up for good.

I wonder where he got the money from....

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/prince-andrew-did-only-privileged-174945793.html

[RiverDog]

Hey, I-5! Good to see you again. I was afraid that you'd found something else better to do with your spare change.

That's as close to an admission of guilt without actually stating it as there can be. And there's one other thing that these large, multi million dollar settlements cause: It encourages those gold diggers out there that had consensual sexual relationships with a rich or famous person
to make false accusations, knowing that they can strike it rich by settling out of court.

The Brits obsession with the Royal family is obscene. It's what killed Princess Diana. No wonder Meghan and Harry left the family.

[Hawktawk]

Hey, I-5! Good to see you again. I was afraid that you'd found something else better to do with your spare change.

That's as close to an admission of guilt without actually stating it as there can be. And there's one other thing that these large, multi million dollar settlements cause: It encourages those gold diggers out there that had consensual sexual relationships with a rich or famous person
to make false accusations, knowing that they can strike it rich by settling out of court.

The Brits obsession with the Royal family is obscene. It's what killed Princess Diana. No wonder Meghan and Harry left the family.

That’s just baloney river . Where’s the proof this leads gold diggers to accuse innocent men ? How does that thought enter into the Epstein thread ? Incredibly perverse ultra wealthy people preying on young girls need to be jailed and sued . Not saying false accusations don’t happen but most wealthy perverts are indeed guilty as charged. Women who take on wealthy people need courage because they will have their character destroyed . I think there are much bigger fish than Andrew . 2 ex presidents and many other super wealthy people such as Bill Gates . We will never know the truth . I’m sure Maxwell would sing in exchange for a reduced sentence but I doubt a prosecuter wants to know .

[RiverDog]

Hey, I-5! Good to see you again. I was afraid that you'd found something else better to do with your spare change.

That's as close to an admission of guilt without actually stating it as there can be. And there's one other thing that these large, multi million dollar settlements cause: It encourages those gold diggers out there that had consensual sexual relationships with a rich or famous person
to make false accusations, knowing that they can strike it rich by settling out of court.

The Brits obsession with the Royal family is obscene. It's what killed Princess Diana. No wonder Meghan and Harry left the family.

That’s just baloney river . Where’s the proof this leads gold diggers to accuse innocent men ? How does that thought enter into the Epstein thread ? Incredibly perverse ultra wealthy people preying on young girls need to be jailed and sued . Not saying false accusations don’t happen but most wealthy perverts are indeed guilty as charged. Women who take on wealthy people need courage because they will have their character destroyed . I think there are much bigger fish than Andrew . 2 ex presidents and many other super wealthy people such as Bill Gates . We will never know the truth . I’m sure Maxwell would sing in exchange for a reduced sentence but I doubt a prosecuter wants to know .

You can start with Kavanaugh, but I'm not going back down that rabbit hole with you. William Kennedy Smith is another one, the Duke lacrosse team, Tom Brokaw, etc.

I've seen blackmail happen before, and it doesn't have to involve the super rich. When the subject is sex, there's a lot of people that would much rather pay off an accuser than defend themselves against the accusation in court as it's a messy business. Did you ever see the movie "Disclosure"?

My point is that it cuts both ways. Obviously, there's POS men like Prince Andrew, Bill Cosby, and others out there, but there's also unscrupulous women that wouldn't think twice about ruining a person's life in order to hit the jackpot, and these out of court settlements are an encouragement to them. Since there's very little evidence in a sexual encounter beyond he said, she said, there's virtually no risk of perjury or slander to the accuser.

[Hawktawk]

You know my thoughts on kavanaugh. He did it . I think William Kennedy Smith did too but that’s cash register justice . Mike Tyson had a far stronger case for acquittal but he was the wrong color and the make up call for the furious feminists after Smith skated. His shirttail relative Micheal Skakel raped a neibor girl and killed her with a golf club and skated for 30 years due to his bloodlines . Big Ben raped 2 women , 1 in a ladies bathroom stall and got a 4 game suspension . The cops didn’t investigate it but they were taking selfie’s with Ben that evening in that bar . I’m not aware of the Brokaw investigation .

Again , I’m not aware of many high profile suits involving consensual sex being called rape . Most accused deny any contact whatsoever . Trump is the poster child for a serial groper, molester , rapist . And he never met any of his accusers As a survivor of childhood abuse and knowing friends and family the overwhelming percentage of victims never say anything or at least for many years . I had suppressed memories of what happened to me for decades . Many victims do . Then they come forth and hear “ why did you wait ? “
I err greatly on the side of the reported victim . I think many more people get away with assault than get falsely accused. That said River I also believe if an accuser cam be proven to be lying they should face the identical punishment as the accused had they been found guilty .

[RiverDog]

Again , I’m not aware of many high profile suits involving consensual sex being called rape . Most accused deny any contact whatsoever . Trump is the poster child for a serial groper, molester , rapist . And he never met any of his accusers As a survivor of childhood abuse and knowing friends and family the overwhelming percentage of victims never say anything or at least for many years . I had suppressed memories of what happened to me for decades . Many victims do . Then they come forth and hear “ why did you wait ? “
I err greatly on the side of the reported victim . I think many more people get away with assault than get falsely accused. That said River I also believe if an accuser cam be proven to be lying they should face the identical punishment as the accused had they been found guilty .

I always error on the side of the accused no matter what the issue is. It's called presumption of innocence, and it's one of the cornerstones of our democratic society.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think it leads to gold diggers. They are already there. Just like the men who think they can get away with using women and throwing them away claiming consensual.

Tolerance for men abusing women was high in the past. Lots of excuses and payouts. That only recently changed. Women were often expected to take it and shut up.

I'm not like Hawktawk though. All the stuff I read about Kavanaugh is nothing to me. 30 years ago he may have groped a girl at a party for 30 seconds is not what I look at as some kind of career ending sin. Same with his drunken tea bagging a girl at a party. Guys teabag each other and do stupid crap while drunk, but a guy does it to a girl and it's sexual assault? Do women want equality or not? I read everything I could on the Kavanaugh case. Even if he did what he did, that's not what I consider sexual assault. And even the women that said he groped her drunkenly for 30 seconds and she is somehow sure it was 30 seconds after 30 years while she was probably drunk at the same party? Give me a break. Whoever did that to her whether Kavanaugh or not obviously stopped when she told them to get off. The other lady who was also drunk remembers getting tea bagged by Kavanaugh at a college party? So if a guy gets tea bagged, it's sexual assault now? The whole attack on Kavanaugh was rubbish. All the women who came Kavanaugh's defense saying he treated them with nothing but respect completely ignored by the media and people like Hawktawk. Guy literally had multiple women who worked under him over the years come to his defense that he never mistreated them on the job. They literally had to go back to some nameless High School Party and his college days to find something to attack Kavanaugh with. Nothing they could find about his behavior on the job and expected that to torpedo his career? It was unreal. What's the next candidate going to do? Go back to his elementary school days and have some women claiming when they were both 8 years old he did something?

Kavanaugh was a political hit job using the Me Too movement that the Democrats lost. I'm glad they did. That was total BS.

[Aseahawkfan]

You know my thoughts on kavanaugh. He did it . I think William Kennedy Smith did too but that’s cash register justice . Mike Tyson had a far stronger case for acquittal but he was the wrong color and the make up call for the furious feminists after Smith skated. His shirttail relative Micheal Skakel raped a neibor girl and killed her with a golf club and skated for 30 years due to his bloodlines . Big Ben raped 2 women , 1 in a ladies bathroom stall and got a 4 game suspension . The cops didn’t investigate it but they were taking selfie’s with Ben that evening in that bar . I’m not aware of the Brokaw investigation .

Again , I’m not aware of many high profile suits involving consensual sex being called rape . Most accused deny any contact whatsoever . Trump is the poster child for a serial groper, molester , rapist . And he never met any of his accusers As a survivor of childhood abuse and knowing friends and family the overwhelming percentage of victims never say anything or at least for many years . I had suppressed memories of what happened to me for decades . Many victims do . Then they come forth and hear “ why did you wait ? “
I err greatly on the side of the reported victim . I think many more people get away with assault than get falsely accused. That said River I also believe if an accuser cam be proven to be lying they should face the identical punishment as the accused had they been found guilty .

Bill Clinton is also the poster child for Trump-like behavior, yet you give him some kind of pass and his wife who helped cover up all his affairs and doings? Hilary was literally an enabler of men like Trump and Bill Clinton, yet half the country voted for her including some of these so called feminists. Bunch of hypocrites that only care about defending whatever side they're on regardless of their behavior.

The biggest scumbag of the Me Too# movement, Harvey Weinstein, was one of the biggest Democratic supporters out there. So was Epstein. He did far more hobnobbing with Democrats than Republicans by a good measure. Bill Clinton was on Epstein's plane more than Trump and this is documented fact. Yet you were defending Bill and Hilary Clinton against Trump vehemently, even though Hilary knew everything Bill was doing and worked very hard to destroy any of his accusers.

And you wonder why the country is in the state it is in when you just a pick a side and defend it to the end making excuse after excuse for the scumbag behavior of your preferred candidate.

[RiverDog]

I don't think it leads to gold diggers. They are already there. Just like the men who think they can get away with using women and throwing them away claiming consensual.

Tolerance for men abusing women was high in the past. Lots of excuses and payouts. That only recently changed. Women were often expected to take it and shut up.

I'm not like Hawktawk though. All the stuff I read about Kavanaugh is nothing to me. 30 years ago he groped a girl at a party for 30 seconds is not what I look at as some kind of career ending sin. Same with his drunken tea bagging a girl at a party. Guys teabag each other and do stupid crap while drunk, but a guy does it and it's sexual assault? Do women want equality or not? I read everything I could on the Kavanaugh case. Even if he did what he did, that's not what I consider sexual assault. And even the women said he groped her drunkenly for 30 seconds and she is somehow sure it was 30 seconds after 30 years while she was probably drunk at the same party? Give me a break. Whoever did that to her whether Kavanaugh or not obviously stopped when she told them to get off. The other lady who was also drunk remembers getting tea bagged by Kavanaugh at a college party? So if a guy gets tea bagged, it's sexual assault now?

Kavanaugh was a political hit job using the Me Too movement that the Democrats lost. I'm glad they did. That was total BS.

I suspect that non-disclosure agreements or out of court settlements encourage gold digging, but I can't prove it, nor can it be proven that it doesn't. I don't like NDA's as it seems contrary to our justice system, favoring those that have the money to make these insidious payoffs and duck the justice system, like Trump and Prince Andrew. If someone is accused of a crime, they should have to face the music like the rest of us.

The sexual harassment allegations against Tom Brokaw came on the heels of the Matt Lauer scandal, and were 23 years old. There were 65 women within the television industry were incensed by the charges and that came forward voluntary and signed a statement regarding Brokaw's character, saying that he was “a man of tremendous decency and integrity” that caused the two women to get cold feet and drop their charges. And keep in mind that the charge was harassment and sexual misconduct, not sexual assault or rape.

[Aseahawkfan]

I suspect that non-disclosure agreements or out of court settlements encourage gold digging, but I can't prove it, nor can it be proven that it doesn't. I don't like NDA's as it seems contrary to our justice system, favoring those that have the money to make these insidious payoffs and duck the justice system, like Trump and Prince Andrew. If someone is accused of a crime, they should have to face the music like the rest of us.

The sexual harassment allegations against Tom Brokaw came on the heels of the Matt Lauer scandal, and were 23 years old. There were 65 women within the television industry were incensed by the charges and that came forward voluntary and signed a statement regarding Brokaw's character, saying that he was “a man of tremendous decency and integrity” that caused the two women to get cold feet and drop their charges. And keep in mind that the charge was harassment and sexual misconduct, not sexual assault or rape.

All I know is both of these political parties had a bunch of scumbags in them treating women poorly and getting away with it for decades. Once the Me Too movement was rolling and it caught the obvious scum like Roger Ailes, Jeffrey Epstein, and Harvey Weinstein, then people just started hopping on whether or not their accusations were credible or not culminating in the hit job on Kavanaugh where everyone accused by a woman was guilty without even the possibility of being proven innocent. And that is not a way to run a justice system at all.

[RiverDog]

Bill Clinton is also the poster child for Trump-like behavior, yet you give him some kind of pass and his wife who helped cover up all his affairs and doings? Hilary was literally an enabler of men like Trump and Bill Clinton, yet half the country voted for her including some of these so called feminists. Bunch of hypocrites that only care about defending whatever side they're on regardless of their behavior.

The biggest scumbag of the Me Too# movement, Harvey Weinstein, was one of the biggest Democratic supporters out there. So was Epstein. He did far more hobnobbing with Democrats than Republicans by a good measure. Bill Clinton was on Epstein's plane more than Trump and this is documented fact. Yet you were defending Bill and Hilary Clinton against Trump vehemently, even though Hilary knew everything Bill was doing and worked very hard to destroy any of his accusers.

And you wonder why the country is in the state it is in when you just a pick a side and defend it to the end making excuse after excuse for the scumbag behavior of your preferred candidate.

I'm not sure how much Hillary enabled Slick Willy, but I agree with everything else you said. Hillary would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see what was going on as he was a womanizer for decades before he became POTUS. Any self-respecting woman would have dumped him years ago. I still think that there was more than just a dotted line connection between Slick Willy and Jeffery Epstein. They're birds of a feather.

10-4 on your picking sides comment. I can be accused of a lot of things, but it's damn difficult for anyone to claim that I'm a hypocrite because I called out Trump's behavior but didn't call out Clinton's. Trump's behavior was a little different in scale but that's about the only difference.

[RiverDog]

All I know is both of these political parties had a bunch of scumbags in them treating women poorly and getting away with it for decades. Once the Me Too movement was rolling and it caught the obvious scum like Roger Ailes, Jeffrey Epstein, and Harvey Weinstein, then people just started hopping on whether or not their accusations were credible or not culminating in the hit job on Kavanaugh where everyone accused by a woman was guilty without even the possibility of being proven innocent. And that is not a way to run a justice system at all.

Agreed. And I'll add that politics isn't the only arena where that happens.

I don't want to re-visit the Kavanaugh thing again as we'll get Hawktalk bouncing off the walls, but there needs to be something done with our confirmation process for SCOTUS justices so that kind of crap doesn't happen. It's happened twice in my memory, once with Clarence Thomas and again with Kavanaugh. If they're federal judges, as both Thomas and Kavanaugh were and as most SCOTUS nominees are, they've already gone through confirmation hearings and had to undergo FBI background checks, so they should be well vetted way before they're nominated.