Epstein Case - Twists and Turns

[I-5]

Riv, I’m sure someone did profit in this case!

[Aseahawkfan]

How funny (and sad) is it that this forum displays more caution than the POTUS. I’m talking about the tweet promoting conspiracy theories specifically about Clinton bring responsibile for Epstein’s death, of course without any evidence. It’s no surprise sadly, since he did exactly the same with the birther conspiracy, the wire tapping conspiracy...the only conspiracy he doesn’t believe is that Russia has nothing to do with trying to undermine our election process. Because of course.

C'mon, he's a former reality TV star. He loves spinning people up with BS. His Trumpbots eat it up ice cream. Trump can do no wrong to the Trumpbots.

You have ask yourself why? Are they really that stupid or are the Democrats vision of the nation so bad they feel driven to support crazy? I'm for the latter.

I find Trump odious. I hate what the way he represents the nation. I hate how he spins people up. I hate his tweeting. But I'd rather have him in office than nearly every Democrat I've seen. Liberals and Democrats run nations like charities where people are babysat and language is controlled like 1984. I hate the way they want this country to run with a passion. I despise Jay Inslee. I want to move out of Washington State at some point due to the liberal politics. Liberals make constant excuses for bad behavior and while they live in well-protected neighborhoods, they let homeless drug addicts and criminals ruin the rest of King County because they feel bad for them. Yet they won't take a hard line on even the harder drugs like heroin and crack. It's astounding how few liberals want to actually enforce laws or clean up communities that aren't theirs or people with money. They cry about the poor while funneling them all into areas populated by middle and working class. I really despise them.

[RiverDog]

Riv, I’m sure someone did profit in this case!

The 'company' running the jail didn't profit.

I haven't and won't jump onto the conspiracy theory bandwagon until I see some evidence. I'm not closing my mind to it, but an inside job like that one would have required the cooperation of a number of people and it's unlikely that they could all keep or be kept quiet. It's not impossible and it's not out there with the fake moon landing conspiracies, but it would have to have been a very complicated operation to pull off and not leave any incriminating evidence behind. This was the same jail that recently held El Chappo while he was awaiting trial so they've had some experience protecting high profile prisoners.

I'll be interested in what the investigation reveals.

[Aseahawkfan]

The 'company' running the jail didn't profit.

I haven't and won't jump onto the conspiracy theory bandwagon until I see some evidence. I'm not closing my mind to it, but an inside job like that one would have required the cooperation of a number of people and it's unlikely that they could all keep or be kept quiet. It's not impossible and it's not out there with the fake moon landing conspiracies, but it would have to have been a very complicated operation to pull off and not leave any incriminating evidence behind. This was the same jail that recently held El Chappo while he was awaiting trial so they've had some experience protecting high profile prisoners.

I'll be interested in what the investigation reveals.

A few prison guards sent away and a few spiked pills or a few guys to hang him. Do they have video footage? Why wasn't this guy on camera 24-7 in such a high profile case? If they don't have video footage for a guy this high profile that just happened to end up dead, even you gotta see the writing on the wall.

You don't need that many people to cover anything up to kill a single guy. A couple of prison guards sent out of the area that never saw anything are worthless as witnesses. Sneak a guy or two in, finish him, get them out, no one even knows who to start with. If the people that did the actual killing just disappear, who do you go after? The guards won't know who paid off the killers. The killers could be disguised in uniforms themselves. You could pull this off with a very easy cover up.

[RiverDog]

A few prison guards sent away and a few spiked pills or a few guys to hang him. Do they have video footage? Why wasn't this guy on camera 24-7 in such a high profile case? If they don't have video footage for a guy this high profile that just happened to end up dead, even you gotta see the writing on the wall.

You don't need that many people to cover anything up to kill a single guy. A couple of prison guards sent out of the area that never saw anything are worthless as witnesses. Sneak a guy or two in, finish him, get them out, no one even knows who to start with. If the people that did the actual killing just disappear, who do you go after? The guards won't know who paid off the killers. The killers could be disguised in uniforms themselves. You could pull this off with a very easy cover up.

It's the same prison that guarded El Chapo a few months ago. It's not going to be as easy as you think to get "a few guys" into a high security cell and hang an inmate. Here's an article from the NY Times about the MCC:

The Metropolitan Correctional Center, the rust-colored fortress in Lower Manhattan where hundreds of federal inmates are housed, was described as less hospitable than Guantánamo Bay by one inmate who had been incarcerated at both. The highest risk half-dozen inmates — or at least the ones facing the most severe charges — are housed in conditions so isolating that some have blamed them for deteriorating eyesight.

This is where federal agents brought Joaquín Guzmán Loera, the drug lord known as El Chapo, when he was extradited to the United States last week after two escapes from high-security Mexican prisons.

The Metropolitan Correctional Center, which held Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, and Bernard L. Madoff, who orchestrated a $20 billion Ponzi scheme, has a reputation for stringent security measures. Even so, several inmates over the years have tried to escape, and a few have succeeded.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/nyre ... -jail.html

Escaping from a place like that is one thing, but a hit team penetrating that place, executing their task, and getting out of there without a trace? Like I said, I need some evidence before I ascribe to any conspiracy theory.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's the same prison that guarded El Chapo a few months ago. It's not going to be as easy as you think to get "a few guys" into a high security cell and hang an inmate. Here's an article from the NY Times about the MCC:

The Metropolitan Correctional Center, the rust-colored fortress in Lower Manhattan where hundreds of federal inmates are housed, was described as less hospitable than Guantánamo Bay by one inmate who had been incarcerated at both. The highest risk half-dozen inmates — or at least the ones facing the most severe charges — are housed in conditions so isolating that some have blamed them for deteriorating eyesight.

This is where federal agents brought Joaquín Guzmán Loera, the drug lord known as El Chapo, when he was extradited to the United States last week after two escapes from high-security Mexican prisons.

The Metropolitan Correctional Center, which held Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, and Bernard L. Madoff, who orchestrated a $20 billion Ponzi scheme, has a reputation for stringent security measures. Even so, several inmates over the years have tried to escape, and a few have succeeded.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/nyre ... -jail.html

Escaping from a place like that is one thing, but a hit team penetrating that place, executing their task, and getting out of there without a trace? Like I said, I need some evidence before I ascribe to any conspiracy theory.

I can't see how a guy on this high profile a case against this many powerful people wasn't on video or with a guard at all times. Would you have let this guy be alone for a long enough time to hang himself with a sheet?

Even you gotta be going, "This is really fishy." And you're one of the biggest skeptics on this forum. I usually don't buy into conspiracy theories, but this is really fishy.

Even if someone didn't kill him, I still get the feeling Epstein was given the chance to do himself in and took it.

This isn't some regular suicide. This was at the very least a "Do what needs to be done or it will be done for you" situation in my opinion. No one will ever know otherwise because Epstein took the way out offered.

[RiverDog]

I can't see how a guy on this high profile a case against this many powerful people wasn't on video or with a guard at all times. Would you have let this guy be alone for a long enough time to hang himself with a sheet?

Even you gotta be going, "This is really fishy." And you're one of the biggest skeptics on this forum. I usually don't buy into conspiracy theories, but this is really fishy.

Even if someone didn't kill him, I still get the feeling Epstein was given the chance to do himself in and took it.

This isn't some regular suicide. This was at the very least a "Do what needs to be done or it will be done for you" situation in my opinion. No one will ever know otherwise because Epstein took the way out offered.

It is fishy, and I said so in my first comments. But nevertheless, my logic tells me that it is highly unlikely for any team to have penetrated a high security prison unobserved, quietly subdued and execute a prisoner by hanging him, and literally disappear into thin air. There would have been easier ways to get to him other than entering his cell and hanging him, like poisoning his food. It's more likely that a perfect storm of human errors and gross incompetence gave Epstein the opportunity to do what he had tried and failed to do a few weeks earlier.

But we'll see. I'm anxious to see the results of the various investigations. I'm not closing my mind to a conspiracy, but what ever I end up believing is going to be driven by facts, not by politics, random speculation, or circumstantial evidence. There's 3 questions to any who dunnit crime that needs to be answered: Means, motive, and opportunity. We've answered just one of those questions.

[Hawktawk]

I’m with Asea on this 100%. Either someone did him in or he was expressly allowed to do himself in. It was intentional either way. No suicide watch pulled after 6 days after he was found with neck injuries and claimed his cell mate assaulted him btw. No roommate . No 30 minute checks . In other words all safeguards removed for the most notorious and radioactive inmate in America . Not buying any of it.

On another note I read the article describing the account of a woman who claims trump repeatedly assaulted her in 1994 when she was a 13 year old member of Epstein’s harem of underage girls. She was suing both of them under the name Jane doe but dropped it in the face of death threats just prior to Nov 16.

Also interesting the FBI raiding orgy island. Still my guess is with the faux indignant walrus Barr running the show there will be no prominent republicans implicated and that includes you know who.

[RiverDog]

I’m with Asea on this 100%. Either someone did him in or he was expressly allowed to do himself in. It was intentional either way. No suicide watch pulled after 6 days after he was found with neck injuries and claimed his cell mate assaulted him btw. No roommate . No 30 minute checks . In other words all safeguards removed for the most notorious and radioactive inmate in America . Not buying any of it.

Very strange, stinks to high heaven, and is going to be difficult of not impossible for prison officials to come up with an acceptable explanation. But it's still circumstantial evidence, and any conclusions drawn at this time are purely speculative and not based on any hard, tangible findings.

There's hacks on both sides of the spectrum, including Trump, that are pushing their heavily biased, politically motivated narratives. The far left is saying Trump did it and the far right is saying Hillary did it.

On another note I read the article describing the account of a woman who claims trump repeatedly assaulted her in 1994 when she was a 13 year old member of Epstein’s harem of underage girls. She was suing both of them under the name Jane doe but dropped it in the face of death threats just prior to Nov 16.

It's going to be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff on these generic claims. Did Trump assault young women in Epstein's harem? Maybe, perhaps even probably. But are there also women out there that absolutely nothing happened to and are looking for their 15 seconds of fame and anxious to cash in on it? Of course.

Also interesting the FBI raiding orgy island. Still my guess is with the faux indignant walrus Barr running the show there will be no prominent republicans implicated and that includes you know who.

They're turning the place upside down, looking for any evidence at all of who might have been there, including stuff like hair follicles, clothing, pictures, anything that could establish a presence on that island. There's going to be a lot of women filing lawsuits on Epstein's estate and there's tons of pressure to do something for the victims. They'll need to establish that each claimant was on that island. Barr's not going to be able to sit on the results of the investigation like he did with the Mueller report. Besides, it's pretty unlikely that Trump was on that island anytime within recent years.

[I-5]

Riv, if you're making a point about gov't messing things up in Epstein's case, I wouldn't necessarily paint the entire world of 'gov't work' that way. My experience in 4 years in Canada has changed my stereotype in my mind, but don't blame you for your thinking. My wife has lived her whole life in Canada, and although it's not a perfect system, she has been to the US many times since we started dating 10 years ago and seen how we have to deal with healthcare, and genuinely feels sorry for us.

[Aseahawkfan]

It is fishy, and I said so in my first comments. But nevertheless, my logic tells me that it is highly unlikely for any team to have penetrated a high security prison unobserved, quietly subdued and execute a prisoner by hanging him, and literally disappear into thin air. There would have been easier ways to get to him other than entering his cell and hanging him, like poisoning his food. It's more likely that a perfect storm of human errors and gross incompetence gave Epstein the opportunity to do what he had tried and failed to do a few weeks earlier.

But we'll see. I'm anxious to see the results of the various investigations. I'm not closing my mind to a conspiracy, but what ever I end up believing is going to be driven by facts, not by politics, random speculation, or circumstantial evidence. There's 3 questions to any who dunnit crime that needs to be answered: Means, motive, and opportunity. We've answered just one of those questions.

Just as I called it before, nothing is going to be found in the investigation that implicates anyone important. So if you're looking for hard, sure facts, they won't be forthcoming unless they blame it on some patsy.

I think the more likely scenario was he did himself in with a handshake agreement to give him time to do so. Then those powerful people gave him the time and opportunity with a few orders and well-planned cover ups. Epstein did what someone does who has attained his position and is completely lost with powerful people looking to take him out: he did himself in. The game for him is over. Now the political game begins.

I don't much agree with you and Hawktawk that Trump was assaulting 13 year old girls. He likely knew about Epstein like so many, but Trump likes women in their 20s. There is no history other than rumor that Trump ever did girls that young. Even all the women accusing him were in this age range or higher. His dating history is pretty clear that he likes women generally in their 20s or up, highly attractive, and willing. Trump isn't some kind of powerful physical specimen forcing himself on women other than some groping or a kiss here and there. No idea why people are painting that narrative other than to smear him. He's a fairly weak man, non-physical, never been known to do athletics, lift weights, or any of that other than play golf. He's never been muscular or strong. It takes physical effort to rape a woman. Trump isn't physical. If a woman wasn't willing, he'd just find someone that was after some groping or kissing likely. It's not like he didn't have a long line of women lining up to hook up with the popular, billionaire playboy. Just as you stated, there has to be factual support for him raping women, just groping and acting inappropriately like was common until the metoo# movement.

[RiverDog]

I don't much agree with you and Hawktawk that Trump was assaulting 13 year old girls. He likely knew about Epstein like so many, but Trump likes women in their 20s. There is no history other than rumor that Trump ever did girls that young. Even all the women accusing him were in this age range or higher. His dating history is pretty clear that he likes women generally in their 20s or up, highly attractive, and willing. Trump isn't some kind of powerful physical specimen forcing himself on women other than some groping or a kiss here and there. No idea why people are painting that narrative other than to smear him. He's a fairly weak man, non-physical, never been known to do athletics, lift weights, or any of that other than play golf. He's never been muscular or strong. It takes physical effort to rape a woman. Trump isn't physical. If a woman wasn't willing, he'd just find someone that was after some groping or kissing likely. It's not like he didn't have a long line of women lining up to hook up with the popular, billionaire playboy. Just as you stated, there has to be factual support for him raping women, just groping and acting inappropriately like was common until the metoo# movement.

All I said was that Trump "maybe, or perhaps even likely" assaulted women in Epstein's harem. I didn't say that he did. I'll admit that I'm a bit biased because I think Trump is such a sleaze bag, but I sure got the impression in his infamous "he likes women like I do, and some of them are on the young side" video taped statement about Epstein that Trump would be a willing participant. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if he did. I wouldn't put anything past that man. He's a spoiled rich kid that doesn't think generally accepted rules of behavior applies to him.

As far as Trump not having the physical stature to commit rape, keep in mind that sex with a juvenile, even if it is consensual, is considered rape. Besides, the statement in the discussion wasn't rape, it was sexual assault...pats on the fanny, groping, unwanted advances. And pertaining to 13 year olds not appealing to him I agree, that might be a bit young, but a well developed 16 or 17 year old could easily pass for an adult in their early 20's and would be the type of woman that could appeal to him.

It's all speculation, but I think that Trump is a little more involved than he's admitting to. Just how involved is anyone's guess.

[RiverDog]

Riv, if you're making a point about gov't messing things up in Epstein's case, I wouldn't necessarily paint the entire world of 'gov't work' that way. My experience in 4 years in Canada has changed my stereotype in my mind, but don't blame you for your thinking. My wife has lived her whole life in Canada, and although it's not a perfect system, she has been to the US many times since we started dating 10 years ago and seen how we have to deal with healthcare, and genuinely feels sorry for us.

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I've met and worked with some very fine people in government and generally had good interactions with them, and I've seen plenty of dead beats that work in the private sector. But in my opinion, by in large government workers aren't going to be as dedicated to customer service as a for-profit business would, and the huge amount of incompetence and blunders at MCC seems so very typical of a government agency.

[c_hawkbob]

Trump likes women in their 20s

That's quite the assumption. All I've heard that I know is not speculation is that Trump likes beautiful women (and that he considers them to have an expiration date) these things I'm sure of as they are his words. Beyond that I don't think he's got much for restrictions.

There are a lot of gorgeous women that are gorgeous at 13 or 14. I would not assume that he has no experience in that regard. Not saying he did, just saying I would not assume he hasn't.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's quite the assumption. All I've heard that I know is not speculation is that Trump likes beautiful women (and that he considers them to have an expiration date) these things I'm sure of as they are his words. Beyond that I don't think he's got much for restrictions.

There are a lot of gorgeous women that are gorgeous at 13 or 14. I would not assume that he has no experience in that regard. Not saying he did, just saying I would not assume he hasn't.

I know you hate him, c-bob, but there is zero evidence of that. Just like Bill Clinton likely isn't banging underage women though he was closer to Epstein than Trump apparently. That being said I'd bet you money both of them and a lot more knew what Epstein was doing and didn't bother to help any of the trapped girls. Just let this snake do his thing just like all the Hollyweird people let Weinstein do his thing and so many others. All because he had a lot of money and they were used to letting rich scumbags do scumbag things.

That's another reason no one listens to Hollywood. They're ground zero for abusing young women and men, yet they have to gall to talk politics like they really give a crap.

As far as I'm concerned, Trump, Bill Clinton, and all the others on the list are just like I've been saying: hypocritical, untrustworthy scumbag liars that overlook vile people like Epstein and Weinstein doing their evil crap as long as they get what they want.

I'm sure Idhawkman will defend Trump in this trashfire even though Trump knew Epstein was abusing young girls. None of them did anything to protect the girls from this predator. They allowed powerful people to help him cover it up. This appears to be one of the few times where the Bush's are like, "Glad I'm not part of that trashfire."

[RiverDog]

That's quite the assumption. All I've heard that I know is not speculation is that Trump likes beautiful women (and that he considers them to have an expiration date) these things I'm sure of as they are his words. Beyond that I don't think he's got much for restrictions.

There are a lot of gorgeous women that are gorgeous at 13 or 14. I would not assume that he has no experience in that regard. Not saying he did, just saying I would not assume he hasn't.

I know you hate him, c-bob, but there is zero evidence of that.

No less evidence than your assertations that it was a hit.

At this point, I don't believe that Clinton or his surrogates bumped off Epstein anymore than I believe that Trump's clan was responsible. I'll be interested in what the investigation reveals.

[Aseahawkfan]

No less evidence than your assertations that it was a hit.

At this point, I don't believe that Clinton or his surrogates bumped off Epstein anymore than I believe that Trump's clan was responsible. I'll be interested in what the investigation reveals.

I disagree with that.

You have a high profile individual in a high security prison involved in a high profile case plastered all over the media that ends up committing suicide before a serious investigation occurs. You have numerous people that will be damaged by his testimony or any deep investigation into his past. Somehow this individual is not on camera, isn't being closely watched, and somehow ended with enough time alone to hang himself with a sheet. You're telling me that's more evidence that something is afoul than accusing a guy of raping a 13 year old girl or other underage girls just because he knew someone? Sorry, your idea of evidence is different than mine. I think there is far more evidence that something foul occurred in that prison even if it was nothing more than a lawyer showing up and saying, "You have an option" and arranging for Epstein to have sufficient time alone to kill himself.

I pretty much guarantee if that was the case, you won't see a single ounce of evidence that will satisfy you. And that's fine. As long as you stay off the radar of powerful people like this, you wont end up dead with no one able to investigate it.

I've seen zero credible evidence of Trump raping underage girls. You kept bringing up Trump's single trip on his plane, yet Bill Clinton had 4 or 5 trips? Was Bill Clinton raping underage girls too? That's the evidence level we're at. I think there is far more evidence that Epstein was offed or at the very least given the chance to kill himself than either Clinton or Trump raping underage girls.

[c_hawkbob]

there is zero evidence of that

Sorry, but more than there is evidence to the contrary. Just the video of him pointing out girls and laughing with Epstein at that "party" (at which he and his buddy were the only male participants) is in fact evidence. Not necessarily of anything beyond what was actually shown in the video, but certainly more than any evidence there is that he never touched an underage girl.

And again, I didn't say he had, just said that I wouldn't make the assumption that he hadn't.

[RiverDog]

No less evidence than your assertations that it was a hit.

At this point, I don't believe that Clinton or his surrogates bumped off Epstein anymore than I believe that Trump's clan was responsible. I'll be interested in what the investigation reveals.

I disagree with that.

You have a high profile individual in a high security prison involved in a high profile case plastered all over the media that ends up committing suicide before a serious investigation occurs. You have numerous people that will be damaged by his testimony or any deep investigation into his past. Somehow this individual is not on camera, isn't being closely watched, and somehow ended with enough time alone to hang himself with a sheet. You're telling me that's more evidence that something is afoul than accusing a guy of raping a 13 year old girl or other underage girls just because he knew someone? Sorry, your idea of evidence is different than mine. I think there is far more evidence that something foul occurred in that prison even if it was nothing more than a lawyer showing up and saying, "You have an option" and arranging for Epstein to have sufficient time alone to kill himself.

I pretty much guarantee if that was the case, you won't see a single ounce of evidence that will satisfy you. And that's fine. As long as you stay off the radar of powerful people like this, you wont end up dead with no one able to investigate it.

Except for the evidence that Epstein was left alone, which can be explained, that's all circumstantial. I want to see evidence of an unidentified figure on a video, or evidence that a video system was tampered with. I want to see autopsy findings that show some sort of a struggle. I want to see fingerprint evidence, DNA on the victim, hair follicles left on the makeshift rope, anything that shows even the possibility of someone entering that cell and doing the deed. It's too much of an observable, confined space with just one locked entry and exit for me to think otherwise. You're right, I probably won't see any evidence that will satisfy me because in all likelihood there is none.

I do think that there's a possibility that the two guards intentionally overlooked Epstein in order that he could kill himself, and hence the possibility that they were in some way influenced by a conspirator. But you have to keep in mind that we're talking about a maximum security prison that has handled some of the most notorious criminals in the world, so I would think that it would be next to impossible to get that kind of access to a guard, but we'll see.

I've seen zero credible evidence of Trump raping underage girls. You kept bringing up Trump's single trip on his plane, yet Bill Clinton had 4 or 5 trips? Was Bill Clinton raping underage girls too? That's the evidence level we're at. I think there is far more evidence that Epstein was offed or at the very least given the chance to kill himself than either Clinton or Trump raping underage girls.

As Cbob pointed out, we have the video/audio of Trump complimenting Epstein about his choice of women along with photos of him at parties. All the evidence I've seen of Clinton is that his name and the SS detail in the logs of his trips on the plane. There is more evidence surrounding Trump vs. Clinton, but it's circumstantial in both cases and doesn't prove a thing other than like scores of other rich and powerful people, they were friends with Epstein, but given the two men's past, it's certainly plausible that either one or both of them could have been sexually involved with underage girls in Epstein's harem.

And even if one or both of them did engage in illegal behavior with Epstein's girls, it only gives them a motive to want him silenced. It doesn't give them the means or opportunity to have done it.

[idhawkman]

I can't see how a guy on this high profile a case against this many powerful people wasn't on video or with a guard at all times. Would you have let this guy be alone for a long enough time to hang himself with a sheet?

After 72 hours from the previous attempt he had to be evaluated and kept on suicide watch but he passed the evaluation. Therefore, they don't have video cameras on the prisoner for "privacy reasons". The cameras in the common area mysteriously didn't work. The guards were working long shifts and "fell asleep". I doubt they did but I hope they took blood samples of the two guards that same day before any substances in their body would have been evacuated. The facts as outlined above could allow him to commit suicide or a hit man/squad to infiltrate and execute the guy. Both scenarios are possible.

Even you gotta be going, "This is really fishy." And you're one of the biggest skeptics on this forum. I usually don't buy into conspiracy theories, but this is really fishy.

River is just inconsistent with his judgments. For instance, he had Kraft fried before the investigation was done. He's made comments about O.J. in the past even though he was found criminally innocent by a jury of his peers. This case, for some reason, he wants to hold judgment which I'm okay with since I always hold judgment until someone is convicted of their charges.

Even if someone didn't kill him, I still get the feeling Epstein was given the chance to do himself in and took it.

This isn't some regular suicide. This was at the very least a "Do what needs to be done or it will be done for you" situation in my opinion. No one will ever know otherwise because Epstein took the way out offered.

Just an FYI - experts say that it is almost impossible to commit suicide by strangulation unless you kick a chair out and physically can't save yourself. The "bunkbed" in the cell was not tall enough to prevent Epstein from saving himself though.

[idhawkman]

It is fishy, and I said so in my first comments. But nevertheless, my logic tells me that it is highly unlikely for any team to have penetrated a high security prison unobserved, quietly subdued and execute a prisoner by hanging him, and literally disappear into thin air. There would have been easier ways to get to him other than entering his cell and hanging him, like poisoning his food. It's more likely that a perfect storm of human errors and gross incompetence gave Epstein the opportunity to do what he had tried and failed to do a few weeks earlier.

Actually, with proper target analysis (which they've had plenty of time to do in this case) would result in many ways to accomplish this. Especially when looking at a facility that is designed to keep people in and not keep people out.

Poisoning would not work because you can't make it look like "a perfect storm of human errors and gross incompetence". An autopsy would clearly point to murder and not a "suicide".

But we'll see. I'm anxious to see the results of the various investigations. I'm not closing my mind to a conspiracy, but what ever I end up believing is going to be driven by facts, not by politics, random speculation, or circumstantial evidence. There's 3 questions to any who dunnit crime that needs to be answered: Means, motive, and opportunity. We've answered just one of those questions.

So in this case, you have two of the three. Means - anyone with two legs and arms could strangle the guy, especially a trained assassin especially with the resources available to the stake holders in this case. Motive - Ha, that's the one thing we have an abundance of in this case. Opportunity - again, with the amount of time and resources available to a trained team to do the target analysis of this incident, the opportunities are varied. Proving the opportunity is another story though.

[idhawkman]

I think the more likely scenario was he did himself in with a handshake agreement to give him time to do so.

Are you sure that he is actually dead? There's something to think about, isn't it?

[idhawkman]

He's a spoiled rich kid that doesn't think generally accepted rules of behavior applies to him.

I've seen this in a number of your posts over the past couple years and am starting to really wonder if this is the real core of your ire toward the man. Jealousy is not a pretty trait to have.

As far as Trump not having the physical stature to commit rape, keep in mind that sex with a juvenile, even if it is consensual, is considered rape.

depends on the state you are in as the age of consent is different by state. I know when I was in high school, the age of consent in Idaho was 14. Not sure what it is now and really don't care since it won't ever be entering my life.

Besides, the statement in the discussion wasn't rape, it was sexual assault...pats on the fanny, groping, unwanted advances. And pertaining to 13 year olds not appealing to him I agree, that might be a bit young, but a well developed 16 or 17 year old could easily pass for an adult in their early 20's and would be the type of woman that could appeal to him.

It's all speculation, but I think that Trump is a little more involved than he's admitting to. Just how involved is anyone's guess.

Interesting how you make an assumptive statement and then follow it up with a definitive statement about Trump and his involvement. This is a text book example of bias when taking courses on journalism.

[idhawkman]

Trump likes women in their 20s

That's quite the assumption. All I've heard that I know is not speculation is that Trump likes beautiful women (and that he considers them to have an expiration date) these things I'm sure of as they are his words. Beyond that I don't think he's got much for restrictions.

There are a lot of gorgeous women that are gorgeous at 13 or 14. I would not assume that he has no experience in that regard. Not saying he did, just saying I would not assume he hasn't.

Well that's quite the leap there Bob. Trump may have said he like beautiful women but to then make a minor a woman to fit your narrative is a bit rich to say the least. 13 and 14 year old girls are girls, not women.

[idhawkman]

I'm sure Idhawkman will defend Trump in this trashfire even though Trump knew Epstein was abusing young girls. None of them did anything to protect the girls from this predator. They allowed powerful people to help him cover it up. This appears to be one of the few times where the Bush's are like, "Glad I'm not part of that trashfire."

That's a leap for you now. What makes you think no one did anything to help the girls? Did Epstein face trial and get a conviction where he was sentenced to do time? Did the local penal system in Florida let him out on work release every day? Why did that trial even start? Why were the locals trying to get him off from that charge and when the feds stepped in and got as much charged against him as they could to lock him up, the left fried that federal prosecutor years later for not being more severe in his prosecution. You don't know who turned in Epstein for that investigation do you? Did Trump throw him out of Mara Largo for harassing the young ladies in the spa? This is a trashfire but to try and spread that fire to people who don't deserve to be in it is just as big a trashfire as the one already burning.

[RiverDog]

depends on the state you are in as the age of consent is different by state. I know when I was in high school, the age of consent in Idaho was 14. Not sure what it is now and really don't care since it won't ever be entering my life.

The applicable state would have been Florida, and in that state, anyone under 16 cannot consent to sex and under 18 if the defendant is 24 years old or older.

[RiverDog]

River is just inconsistent with his judgments. For instance, he had Kraft fried before the investigation was done. He's made comments about O.J. in the past even though he was found criminally innocent by a jury of his peers. This case, for some reason, he wants to hold judgment which I'm okay with since I always hold judgment until someone is convicted of their charges.

In both those cases, ie Kraft and OJ, there was irrefutable evidence (videos, DNA) indicating their guilt. Contrast that with the Epstein death where there is no evidence (so far) of foul play let alone evidence that any one particular person or persons were complicit.

And FYI, you're only telling half the story of the OJ trial. He was found innocent of murder in his criminal trial but found to be responsible for the deaths in a civil trial. Both those decisions can't be right. Which jury do you think reached the correct verdict?

[Hawktawk]

Trump admitted walking in on nude pageant contestant “ I own it so I’m inspecting it, I can get away with it” a girl 15 yrs old at a junior miss contest said he did exactly that .... I believe all of it.... the girl who was 13 described his bizarre comments about Ivankas beauty , she was 13 at the time , that he was a germaphobe, that he slapped her at one time and said he would do what he wanted. I believe every word from every woman.

[idhawkman]

depends on the state you are in as the age of consent is different by state. I know when I was in high school, the age of consent in Idaho was 14. Not sure what it is now and really don't care since it won't ever be entering my life.

The applicable state would have been Florida, and in that state, anyone under 16 cannot consent to sex and under 18 if the defendant is 24 years old or older.

And yet that state didn't want to charge him at all when they had the chance, instead they left it up to the Feds to try and get something going on him. I wonder who he had pictures on at that time...

[idhawkman]

In both those cases, ie Kraft and OJ, there was irrefutable evidence (videos, DNA) indicating their guilt. Contrast that with the Epstein death where there is no evidence (so far) of foul play let alone evidence that any one particular person or persons were complicit.

And FYI, you're only telling half the story of the OJ trial. He was found innocent of murder in his criminal trial but found to be responsible for the deaths in a civil trial. Both those decisions can't be right. Which jury do you think reached the correct verdict?

Obviously there was refutable evidence since OJ was cleared of criminal charges and Kraft still hasn't been charged and the "evidence" has been suppressed. But don't worry, you can go on with your judgments anyways.

As I stated, he was criminally cleared which is still the case. There are no two sides to the criminal case. What you are confusing is that he was found civilly liable for the deaths which is not convicting him of doing the crime - he's just responsible for the restitution of the crime. Pretty stupid isn't it, regarding our "justice" system. Basically it states that he didn't do it but he's responsible for the crime he didn't commit. What I believe is that the civil jury wrongly reached its conclusion since they are holding him liable for a crime he didn't commit nor caused to happen per the criminal exoneration.

[idhawkman]

Trump admitted walking in on nude pageant contestant “ I own it so I’m inspecting it, I can get away with it” a girl 15 yrs old at a junior miss contest said he did exactly that .... I believe all of it.... the girl who was 13 described his bizarre comments about Ivankas beauty , she was 13 at the time , that he was a germaphobe, that he slapped her at one time and said he would do what he wanted. I believe every word from every woman.

Ha! every word huh? FYI - germaphobes don't go around touching other people and they definitely don't want to be touched. So which is it? He constantly touches women and they fondle him or he's a germaphobe?

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not going to continue this BS. I know some of you hate Trump and want to try to pin this all on him while politicizing this trash.

The reality is that a lot of powerful people including Donald Trump and Bill Clinton both knew about this scumbag and did nothing. They didn't report him, they didn't investigate him, and they let him get away this trash for years. Using this as "Hate Trump More" moment is just letting all the other trash off the hook. None of them should be left off the hook. Not because there is some rumor they were banging underage girls, but for the very provable and real fact they did nothing to stop a rich pedophile from sex trafficking. They should all be burnt to the ground for this scumbag behavior. Trump, Clinton, and all other scum that enabled this rich pedophile.

This is beyond political parties or presidents. This is just vile crap by wealthy folk overlooking a predator within their midst.

[RiverDog]

I'm not going to continue this BS. I know some of you hate Trump and want to try to pin this all on him while politicizing this trash.

The reality is that a lot of powerful people including Donald Trump and Bill Clinton both knew about this scumbag and did nothing. They didn't report him, they didn't investigate him, and they let him get away this trash for years. Using this as "Hate Trump More" moment is just letting all the other trash off the hook. None of them should be left off the hook. Not because there is some rumor they were banging underage girls, but for the very provable and real fact they did nothing to stop a rich pedophile from sex trafficking. They should all be burnt to the ground for this scumbag behavior. Trump, Clinton, and all other scum that enabled this rich pedophile.

This is beyond political parties or presidents. This is just vile crap by wealthy folk overlooking a predator within their midst.

I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to pin anything on Trump or Clinton, even though I think that they both know more about this than they've let on. It wouldn't surprise me if either or both of them were participants based on what we know about their past.

My only disagreement with you was over the circumstances of Epstein's death. Yes, it's fishy, mysterious, and difficult to explain. But the easiest explanation is that sh!t happens. There are incompetent guards, idiot wardens, and so on. In the absence of facts, I'll default to the simplest of explanations.

[RiverDog]

Now things might be changing some. Apparently Epstein's autopsy found multiple broken bones in his neck:

One of the broken bones in Epstein's neck was the hyoid, according to The (Washington) Post. This type of fracture is associated with both suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation but is more commonly related to the latter, Jonathan Arden, the president of the National Association of Medical Examiners, told The Post.

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeffrey ... ort-2019-8

It doesn't rule out suicide, but it happens more often in strangulations than it does in hangings. That's the type of evidence I'm referring to that would be required for me to ascribe to a conspiracy theory. The next step would be to find out how a person(s) might have gained access.

We'll see what else develops. Stay tuned.

[I-5]

Ha! every word huh? FYI - germaphobes don't go around touching other people and they definitely don't want to be touched. So which is it? He constantly touches women and they fondle him or he's a germaphobe?

You're contradicting your president. He's the one bragging about it in detail. IMO, the germophobe mostly applies to his food habits, which is why he goes with fast food the majority of the time, believing somehow it's 'cleaner'. He has no problems with touching strippers, for example.

[RiverDog]

Ha! every word huh? FYI - germaphobes don't go around touching other people and they definitely don't want to be touched. So which is it? He constantly touches women and they fondle him or he's a germaphobe?

You're contradicting your president. He's the one bragging about it in detail. IMO, the germophobe mostly applies to his food habits, which is why he goes with fast food the majority of the time, believing somehow it's 'cleaner'. He has no problems with touching strippers, for example.

A true germaphobe is so obsessed that they won't even shake hands with anyone without sanitizing their hands immediately afterwards. It goes much deeper than a fear of eating contaminated food.

But your point about Trump and strippers is spot on. No way would a true germaphobe have sex with pornstars, especially when he has a friend like Epstein available to provide him with 13-14 year old virgins .

[Aseahawkfan]

We'll likely never know. Government awful at cover ups. Powerful people outside of government often very good at it. I haven't seen anything that reeked more of powerful people offing one of their own to shut them up than this in recent memory. But maybe we'll be surprised and Epstein offed himself while leaving behind a ton of evidence to implicate others. We shall see.

I find it awfully convenient that the most high profile prisoner in a max security prison somehow had incompetent guards doctoring books looking in on his cell. Of course we all know that's how you handle high profile prisoners with dirt on powerful people abusing underage girls. We just plop them in a cell alone, toss in some incompetent guards, and make sure no video cameras are watching them. Sounds exactly like the perfect way to handle a high profile prisoner with dirt on powerful people worldwide.

I say next time we have witness testifying against some high up drug lord, we just let him wander the yard in general pop in the same prison with a gang working for that drug lord. Make sure the most incompetent and careless guards are on duty. Then we'll all feign outrage when the witness gets offed and pretend it was just incompetence.

[RiverDog]

We'll likely never know. Government awful at cover ups. Powerful people outside of government often very good at it. I haven't seen anything that reeked more of powerful people offing one of their own to shut them up than this in recent memory. But maybe we'll be surprised and Epstein offed himself while leaving behind a ton of evidence to implicate others. We shall see.

I find it awfully convenient that the most high profile prisoner in a max security prison somehow had incompetent guards doctoring books looking in on his cell. Of course we all know that's how you handle high profile prisoners with dirt on powerful people abusing underage girls. We just plop them in a cell alone, toss in some incompetent guards, and make sure no video cameras are watching them. Sounds exactly like the perfect way to handle a high profile prisoner with dirt on powerful people worldwide.

I still want to know why he was taken off suicide watch so quickly after his first unsuccessful attempt and why he was not either assigned a cellmate or put back on 24/7 watch once his cellmate was moved. Epstein had to be one of if not the highest profile prisoner in their charge, yet they seem so complacent.

Once his bail was denied, Epstein realized that he was never going to see the light of day again. There was zero chance that he was going to receive a favorable sentence where he could be out in less than 10 years. It's very hard to understand why prison officials wouldn't have come to that realization as well, especially after his first unsuccessful suicide attempt.

I'm still not buying the conspiracy theory, but I'm not closing my mind to it either. The only plausible theory, if there is one, is that it's possible that prison officials were bribed or coerced to put Epstein into a situation where he could kill himself. But that would take the cooperation of a number of employees, and it's unlikely that they'd be able to keep such a conspiracy under wraps.

[Aseahawkfan]

I still want to know why he was taken off suicide watch so quickly after his first unsuccessful attempt and why he was not either assigned a cellmate or put back on 24/7 watch once his cellmate was moved. Epstein had to be one of if not the highest profile prisoner in their charge, yet they seem so complacent.

Once his bail was denied, Epstein realized that he was never going to see the light of day again. There was zero chance that he was going to receive a favorable sentence where he could be out in less than 10 years. It's very hard to understand why prison officials wouldn't have come to that realization as well, especially after his first unsuccessful suicide attempt.

I'm still not buying the conspiracy theory, but I'm not closing my mind to it either. The only plausible theory, if there is one, is that it's possible that prison officials were bribed or coerced to put Epstein into a situation where he could kill himself. But that would take the cooperation of a number of employees, and it's unlikely that they'd be able to keep such a conspiracy under wraps.

I don't think we'll ever get conclusive evidence myself. I'm not even sure anyone showed up to kill Epstein. I think it was more likely he was allowed to commit suicide as a way out. One last arrangement to let Epstein do what he must do because he was never going to make it to the stand to implicate all those powerful people.

That's my belief, though we'll likely never know for sure. I can''t believe in the modern day given our ability to install heavy surveillance that he wasn't constantly watched. If Epstein had Trump clean, Dems would have made sure he was protected and had a deal. if Epstein had Clinton clean, Republicans would have done the same. Epstein must have been so dirty that no one really wanted him alive, thus the lax security and surveillance.

[I-5]

ASF, I assume you mean that his motive for hanging himself is that its less painful than what might happen to him in prison...would he have been with other inmates?