Epstein Case - Twists and Turns

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not sure how much Hillary enabled Slick Willy, but I agree with everything else you said. Hillary would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see what was going on as he was a womanizer for decades before he became POTUS. Any self-respecting woman would have dumped him years ago. I still think that there was more than just a dotted line connection between Slick Willy and Jeffery Epstein. They're birds of a feather.

10-4 on your picking sides comment. I can be accused of a lot of things, but it's damn difficult for anyone to claim that I'm a hypocrite because I called out Trump's behavior but didn't call out Clinton's. Trump's behavior was a little different in scale but that's about the only difference.

Hilary stayed with him. She publicly attacked his accusers. Hilary is not some wallflower idiot. She's from a powerful political family that was well-connected. Her family is part of the reason why Bill Clinton married her. She's not Kennedy level family, but definitely from a well-connected family. She knew what she was getting into. Stuck by Bill all those years. She was a Senator in New York, where Trump was a prominent businessman for decades paying into campaigns and hobnobbing with the politicians in New York.

Hilary is ruthless, intelligent, and she helped engineer more than a few coverups and scandals to advance her position.

Hilary knew Epstein was a scumbag. None of them in either party did anything about the PoS Epstein. Same as the British Royals and politicians did nothing with that PoS Prince Andrew. Just like no one in Hollywood did anything about Weinstein or R. Kelly until things finally changed. Or Roger Ailes at Fox News. No one is going to convince me that quite a few powerful people knew what these people were up to and did nothing about it because it was not politically beneficial to do so including Hilary Clinton. Even the women were selling each other out for these predators in Hollywood, Politics, and the like.

I remember being in my 20s in the 90s and wondering why it was ok for R. Kelly to date the 15 year old Aaliyah. But he just got away with that garbage for years because he was rich and famous. Same with the rest of them. Then we have a reckoning decades later and I'm supposed to believe any of these people are remorseful? Let's just say I'm not buying it.

[Hawktawk]

I don't think it leads to gold diggers. They are already there. Just like the men who think they can get away with using women and throwing them away claiming consensual.

Tolerance for men abusing women was high in the past. Lots of excuses and payouts. That only recently changed. Women were often expected to take it and shut up.

I'm not like Hawktawk though. All the stuff I read about Kavanaugh is nothing to me. 30 years ago he may have groped a girl at a party for 30 seconds is not what I look at as some kind of career ending sin. Same with his drunken tea bagging a girl at a party. Guys teabag each other and do stupid crap while drunk, but a guy does it to a girl and it's sexual assault? Do women want equality or not? I read everything I could on the Kavanaugh case. Even if he did what he did, that's not what I consider sexual assault. And even the women that said he groped her drunkenly for 30 seconds and she is somehow sure it was 30 seconds after 30 years while she was probably drunk at the same party? Give me a break. Whoever did that to her whether Kavanaugh or not obviously stopped when she told them to get off. The other lady who was also drunk remembers getting tea bagged by Kavanaugh at a college party? So if a guy gets tea bagged, it's sexual assault now? The whole attack on Kavanaugh was rubbish. All the women who came Kavanaugh's defense saying he treated them with nothing but respect completely ignored by the media and people like Hawktawk. Guy literally had multiple women who worked under him over the years come to his defense that he never mistreated them on the job. They literally had to go back to some nameless High School Party and his college days to find something to attack Kavanaugh with. Nothing they could find about his behavior on the job and expected that to torpedo his career? It was unreal. What's the next candidate going to do? Go back to his elementary school days and have some women claiming when they were both 8 years old he did something?

Kavanaugh was a political hit job using the Me Too movement that the Democrats lost. I'm glad they did. That was total BS.

OK so now he did it but its OK? All that good stuff you wrote to start out then this to end it? What Kavanaugh AND his falling down drunk buddy did at age 17 was drag a 15 year old girl into a room, close the door, pin her down and try to rip her swimsuit off. She was about 90 pounds. She was able to escape or the story would have surely been much worse. And tea bagging a woman is all in good fun as a college guy in your 20s? You must have been at some crazier parties than me. Alcohol is an explanation but its not an excuse. Some POS give alcohol a bad name.

I thought you said it was all false but now you admit it was true and its still OK for the man to be a supreme court justice. I dont. There are 9 of the jobs on the planet with hundreds of qualified applicants such as Neil Gorsuch. Its a lifetime appointment. If hes a swing shift manager at MCD it doesn't matter as along as hes figured out how to lay off the ladies. If its the SCOTUS its all fair game. There's women in this country who this guy did stuff to, likely more than 2 cause they never stop at 1 or 2 that are gonna watch this man in his dream job till they die. We know one was seeking counseling for it within a year of him being nominated, many decades later. Its wrong. A bit humorous hes the least reliable of Trumps picks but he should never have been there with what the senators surely knew which is exactly what you have accepted which is that he did it.

[Hawktawk]

Bill Clinton is also the poster child for Trump-like behavior, yet you give him some kind of pass and his wife who helped cover up all his affairs and doings? Hilary was literally an enabler of men like Trump and Bill Clinton, yet half the country voted for her including some of these so called feminists. Bunch of hypocrites that only care about defending whatever side they're on regardless of their behavior.

The biggest scumbag of the Me Too# movement, Harvey Weinstein, was one of the biggest Democratic supporters out there. So was Epstein. He did far more hobnobbing with Democrats than Republicans by a good measure. Bill Clinton was on Epstein's plane more than Trump and this is documented fact. Yet you were defending Bill and Hilary Clinton against Trump vehemently, even though Hilary knew everything Bill was doing and worked very hard to destroy any of his accusers.

And you wonder why the country is in the state it is in when you just a pick a side and defend it to the end making excuse after excuse for the scumbag behavior of your preferred candidate.

Not sure what the hell you are talking about. If you can show where I've defended slick Willie Id like to see it. I believe the accusers who say he assaulted and raped them. I supported his impeachment and felt he should definitely be removed. In hindsight at least he could govern which is more than I've seen for quite a while now. His sins likely doomed Hillary as she had no weapon against the sexist pig rapist groper Trump.

At least democrats do eat their own as the falls of Epstein, Weinstein, Franken show. Cheeto is still a viable 2024 candidate. The R party is more for the abusers.
I'm a bi partisan critic of those who hurt women and defile the higher offices of this nation.

[RiverDog]

Hilary stayed with him. She publicly attacked his accusers. Hilary is not some wallflower idiot. She's from a powerful political family that was well-connected. Her family is part of the reason why Bill Clinton married her. She's not Kennedy level family, but definitely from a well-connected family. She knew what she was getting into. Stuck by Bill all those years. She was a Senator in New York, where Trump was a prominent businessman for decades paying into campaigns and hobnobbing with the politicians in New York.

Hilary is ruthless, intelligent, and she helped engineer more than a few coverups and scandals to advance her position.

Hilary knew Epstein was a scumbag. None of them in either party did anything about the PoS Epstein. Same as the British Royals and politicians did nothing with that PoS Prince Andrew. Just like no one in Hollywood did anything about Weinstein or R. Kelly until things finally changed. Or Roger Ailes at Fox News. No one is going to convince me that quite a few powerful people knew what these people were up to and did nothing about it because it was not politically beneficial to do so including Hilary Clinton. Even the women were selling each other out for these predators in Hollywood, Politics, and the like.

I remember being in my 20s in the 90s and wondering why it was ok for R. Kelly to date the 15 year old Aaliyah. But he just got away with that garbage for years because he was rich and famous. Same with the rest of them. Then we have a reckoning decades later and I'm supposed to believe any of these people are remorseful? Let's just say I'm not buying it.

Although it's impossible to prove your allegations, I agree with what you're saying about Hillary. I've always felt that their marriage was one of political convenience, that each needed the other to further their political ambitions. If you're read anything about FDR and his wife Eleanor, it was much the same type of relationship, with each living separate lives with separate political agendas. Clinton's womanizing was an open secret, and it would have been impossible for Hillary not to have known about it.

I also agree that at the very least, Bill Clinton knew what was going on with Epstein, that he was running a prostitution ring. Hell, the tour agencies used to refer to Epstein's private compound as "pedophile island", so if knowledge about the activities within Epstein's compound was that common, there's no way that at least Slick Willy would have known about it. A former POTUS doesn't hitch rides on private planes with random strangers. The secret service had to have known and relayed that information to him. Whether or not Hillary knew about the sex ring is a little harder to conceive of, but it wouldn't surprise me if she did.

Going back to my original comments, they need to do away with these non-disclosure agreements and make them illegal. It has led to a double standard of justice, that those rich enough to afford to pay off accusers can behave in a much different fashion than slobs like us, and IMO has led to gold diggers looking for a pot of gold.

[Hawktawk]

Every high profile person who palled around with Epstein knew the deal. Alan Dershowitz “ yeah it was just a massage. Former NM Governor Bill Richardson . Former Republican speaker I can’t remember . Why else would these people fly on his plane . Clinton went to orgy island and I’ve heard Trump publicly praise Epstein “ he likes his women on the young side “. It’s a scandal of unparalleled magnitude but I doubt a single person beyond Maxwell will be prosecuted . Despicable . We’re Rome .

[RiverDog]

Every high profile person who palled around with Epstein knew the deal. Alan Dershowitz “ yeah it was just a massage. Former NM Governor Bill Richardson . Former Republican speaker I can’t remember . Why else would these people fly on his plane . Clinton went to orgy island and I’ve heard Trump publicly praise Epstein “ he likes his women on the young side “. It’s a scandal of unparalleled magnitude but I doubt a single person beyond Maxwell will be prosecuted . Despicable . We’re Rome .

It has also largely been ignored by the media. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cover-up on a large scale, that there were a lot of rich and powerful people involved in this ring. I don't doubt for a minute that it goes well beyond Prince Andrew. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me that some of Andrew's hush money is being provided by a number of others, a high rollers "FundMe" account.

And as I keep harping about, these non-disclosure agreements allow for a cover-up like this, or at least the possibility of one.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah I agree River but IMO people who pay millions and demand ND are guilty and would never make it through discovery . It’s why Trump never sued, it’s why slick willie paid off Paula Jones . Juanita Broderick had an even more messed up account of being pinned , molested , bitten on the lip.

I don’t believe many super wealthy people would pay millions to a liar who is impugning them . I’d wreck that person , countersue them into bankruptcy .


Micheal Jackson comes to mind and he beat the rap because he was Micheal Jackson but god only knows how much he paid . I’m sure there’s some messed up young men running around after that. Hopefully it’s not the gift that keeps giving .

[RiverDog]

I don’t believe many super wealthy people would pay millions to a liar who is impugning them . I’d wreck that person , countersue them into bankruptcy .

Micheal Jackson comes to mind and he beat the rap because he was Micheal Jackson but god only knows how much he paid . I’m sure there’s some messed up young men running around after that. Hopefully it’s not the gift that keeps giving .

I disagree. Wealthy people, at least those unlike Michael Jackson, who was an anomaly that was weird to begin with, that have a wife and kids and a reputation or image they want to protect, would much rather pay off an accuser than have their name and reputation sullied. There are too many scum bag lawyers that will more than willingly take on a high profile case in order to make a name for themselves. Stormy Daniels lawyer is a great example. I have no doubt that Trump was guilty as sin, but that lawyer of hers was in it for his own benefit, not his client's.

I'm not saying that it happens frequently, but no matter what the issue is, anytime you start dangling 6 and 7 figure sums in front of a person, it makes for a huge temptation for them to set aside their honesty and compassion for the collateral damage they might cause. It's the power of the almighty dollar. Besides, like I said, it's about creating a level playing field. If someone accused you of sexual harassment and were innocent of the charges, could you afford to pay her off?

[Aseahawkfan]

[OK so now he did it but its OK? All that good stuff you wrote to start out then this to end it? What Kavanaugh AND his falling down drunk buddy did at age 17 was drag a 15 year old girl into a room, close the door, pin her down and try to rip her swimsuit off. She was about 90 pounds. She was able to escape or the story would have surely been much worse. And tea bagging a woman is all in good fun as a college guy in your 20s? You must have been at some crazier parties than me. Alcohol is an explanation but its not an excuse. Some POS give alcohol a bad name.

I thought you said it was all false but now you admit it was true and its still OK for the man to be a supreme court justice. I dont. There are 9 of the jobs on the planet with hundreds of qualified applicants such as Neil Gorsuch. Its a lifetime appointment. If hes a swing shift manager at MCD it doesn't matter as along as hes figured out how to lay off the ladies. If its the SCOTUS its all fair game. There's women in this country who this guy did stuff to, likely more than 2 cause they never stop at 1 or 2 that are gonna watch this man in his dream job till they die. We know one was seeking counseling for it within a year of him being nominated, many decades later. Its wrong. A bit humorous hes the least reliable of Trumps picks but he should never have been there with what the senators surely knew which is exactly what you have accepted which is that he did it.

I saw guys faces written on, their eyebrows shaved. I saw drunken girls sleeping around with them as the aggressors. I saw plenty of fights. I saw farting in faces. I saw guys crap themselves.

If I had a magic time machine and could go where I want in time, I'd bet money I could find accusers who would accuse you of a bunch of crap you would deny in the modern day. Or just about anyone on the forum. But your not in politics, so your drunken or messed up past doesn't get dragged up 30 years later with the pretense that alcohol had nothing to do with what was going on with behavior.

So stop pretending that teens in High School and college at drunken parties don't do tons of stupid crap. Everyone knows they do. Trying to bring it up 30 year plus years later to torpedo someone's career after they're well past that stage of life and you can't find anything on them as an adult shows how ridiculous the entire political attack was.

[Aseahawkfan]

It has also largely been ignored by the media. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cover-up on a large scale, that there were a lot of rich and powerful people involved in this ring. I don't doubt for a minute that it goes well beyond Prince Andrew. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me that some of Andrew's hush money is being provided by a number of others, a high rollers "FundMe" account.

And as I keep harping about, these non-disclosure agreements allow for a cover-up like this, or at least the possibility of one.

You keep saying you're not into conspiracy theories, yet there is a ton of proof that people are conspiring all the time to benefit themselves.

I get that you're not into the crazy stuff, but not accepting that people are conspiring all the time is more crazy to me. You are literally watching a huge conspiracy right now with the Ukraine assault. They were conspiring in Russia to make this happen.

You watched a conspiracy to take down Trump with the Russian collusion investigation to benefit Hilary Clinton. You literally read about her manipulating the Democratic Party to torpedo Bernie Smith.

There are so many conspiracies occurring all the time, you'd have to be more insane not to believe in them. They aren't even secret half the time or at least make themselves known at some point. But they were conspiring before they occurred.

Wake up, RD. Powerful people work together to manipulate the world, they conspire to their greater benefit. If they did not, you wouldn't even need half the laws that are in place to try to stop them whether anti-monopoly laws, to limits on donations, to limits on lobbyist, to laws against private army mercenary work. Wake the hell up, man.

Powerful and wealthy people want to rule this world. They work to do it skirting legality all the time. They are conspiring. Americans need to be far more awake to this reality.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah I agree River but IMO people who pay millions and demand ND are guilty and would never make it through discovery . It’s why Trump never sued, it’s why slick willie paid off Paula Jones . Juanita Broderick had an even more messed up account of being pinned , molested , bitten on the lip.

I don’t believe many super wealthy people would pay millions to a liar who is impugning them . I’d wreck that person , countersue them into bankruptcy .


Micheal Jackson comes to mind and he beat the rap because he was Micheal Jackson but god only knows how much he paid . I’m sure there’s some messed up young men running around after that. Hopefully it’s not the gift that keeps giving .

I don't believe Michael Jackson did it myself. I believe Michael Jackson paid off the first accuser because he was afraid even the accusation would ruin him, which it did. He fought the second time to stop people from going after him like that.

Michael Jackson was a strange man. But I don't believe he treated children or people badly or sexually. I think he was just a very strange, scared man who never wanted to grow up. I don't even think he had sex. I don't think those kids were conceived through sexual intercourse. Most likely some sort of fertilization process.

Michael Jackson had thousands of kids through his Neverland Ranch. Only a few accused him and never of actual sexual intercourse. It was always this touching or some other crap. They always wanted money from him to keep it quiet.

Mike was a strange man. But not a cruel or malicious man. I think he was taken advantage of because they knew no one would belief the weirdo he had become.

Someone has been making money off Michael Jackson since he was young and his dad started to even after he was dead and that pathetic documentary came out with those two lying dudes claiming he molested them after he couldn't defend himself. Make money off the famous crazy is all I saw.

[RiverDog]

It has also largely been ignored by the media. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cover-up on a large scale, that there were a lot of rich and powerful people involved in this ring. I don't doubt for a minute that it goes well beyond Prince Andrew. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me that some of Andrew's hush money is being provided by a number of others, a high rollers "FundMe" account.

And as I keep harping about, these non-disclosure agreements allow for a cover-up like this, or at least the possibility of one.

You keep saying you're not into conspiracy theories, yet there is a ton of proof that people are conspiring all the time to benefit themselves.

I get that you're not into the crazy stuff, but not accepting that people are conspiring all the time is more crazy to me. You are literally watching a huge conspiracy right now with the Ukraine assault. They were conspiring in Russia to make this happen.

You watched a conspiracy to take down Trump with the Russian collusion investigation to benefit Hilary Clinton. You literally read about her manipulating the Democratic Party to torpedo Bernie Smith.

There are so many conspiracies occurring all the time, you'd have to be more insane not to believe in them. They aren't even secret half the time or at least make themselves known at some point. But they were conspiring before they occurred.

Wake up, RD. Powerful people work together to manipulate the world, they conspire to their greater benefit. If they did not, you wouldn't even need half the laws that are in place to try to stop them whether anti-monopoly laws, to limits on donations, to limits on lobbyist, to laws against private army mercenary work. Wake the hell up, man.

Powerful and wealthy people want to rule this world. They work to do it skirting legality all the time. They are conspiring. Americans need to be far more awake to this reality.

I should have said that differently. What I meant to say was that 'as a rule', I'm not into conspiracy theories. Technically, all it takes is two people to 'conspire' to do something for it to be called a conspiracy, but that's not what I think about when using the term. For example, I don't think of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance as a 'conspiracy' even though it obviously involved more than one person. IMO there was only one organization involved. Clandestine, yes. Conspiracy, no.

I'm not sure how much of what you're talking about is something that I would consider a 'conspiracy'.

[Hawktawk]

I saw guys faces written on, their eyebrows shaved. I saw drunken girls sleeping around with them as the aggressors. I saw plenty of fights. I saw farting in faces. I saw guys crap themselves.

If I had a magic time machine and could go where I want in time, I'd bet money I could find accusers who would accuse you of a bunch of crap you would deny in the modern day. Or just about anyone on the forum. But your not in politics, so your drunken or messed up past doesn't get dragged up 30 years later with the pretense that alcohol had nothing to do with what was going on with behavior.

So stop pretending that teens in High School and college at drunken parties don't do tons of stupid crap. Everyone knows they do. Trying to bring it up 30 year plus years later to torpedo someone's career after they're well past that stage of life and you can't find anything on them as an adult shows how ridiculous the entire political attack was.

To begin with Blasi Ford was victimized 2 times . Once with a sexual assault by 2 guys including BK. Pinning a 15 year old down and trying to rip a 1 piece off of her is not hanky Panky gone too far . It’s assault , attempted rape of a minor. 2 guys . Sick perverted predatory behavior you seem to have conceded occurred. That’s jail time . Same for exposing yourself and tea bagging a woman . Jail. Sure thousands of out of control people have done it and far worse but they are not on the scotus . The second victimization of Blasi Ford was by Dianne Fenstein who leaked her private letter that had only been intended as an FYI by Senators to help them make a decision . She’s still in counseling 4 decades later. I get it as a survivor of childhood sexual assault . I probably should be, might some day . The conspiracy was the sham FBI investigation. Trump was a whisker from dumping him till the Trumpanzee polls came out . It’s no point rehashing it. We will look at a man who committed at least 2 crimes against women till we are dead and gone . Something tells me Neil Gorsuch didn’t go to parties like that . You think this is Ok. I don’t . End of subject .

[Aseahawkfan]

I should have said that differently. What I meant to say was that 'as a rule', I'm not into conspiracy theories. Technically, all it takes is two people to 'conspire' to do something for it to be called a conspiracy, but that's not what I think about when using the term. For example, I don't think of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance as a 'conspiracy' even though it obviously involved more than one person. IMO there was only one organization involved. Clandestine, yes. Conspiracy, no.

I'm not sure how much of what you're talking about is something that I would consider a 'conspiracy'.

Too many people have turned the world conspiracy into something applied to nuts believing in UFO cover ups and focused on Elvis sitings.

Yet conspiracy is a group getting together to do harm or to collude to do illegal activity to benefit themselves. That is happening all the time. No one is stopping it because it is hidden, then once it gets out it's often too late or people just make excuses for their chosen side.

The American people have no one to blame but themselves for supporting unethical, power mongers who manipulate them for a vote and then use the power they've obtained for their own benefit.

[Aseahawkfan]

To begin with Blasi Ford was victimized 2 times . Once with a sexual assault by 2 guys including BK. Pinning a 15 year old down and trying to rip a 1 piece off of her is not hanky Panky gone too far . It’s assault , attempted rape of a minor. 2 guys . Sick perverted predatory behavior you seem to have conceded occurred. That’s jail time . Same for exposing yourself and tea bagging a woman . Jail. Sure thousands of out of control people have done it and far worse but they are not on the scotus . The second victimization of Blasi Ford was by Dianne Fenstein who leaked her private letter that had only been intended as an FYI by Senators to help them make a decision . She’s still in counseling 4 decades later. I get it as a survivor of childhood sexual assault . I probably should be, might some day . The conspiracy was the sham FBI investigation. Trump was a whisker from dumping him till the Trumpanzee polls came out . It’s no point rehashing it. We will look at a man who committed at least 2 crimes against women till we are dead and gone . Something tells me Neil Gorsuch didn’t go to parties like that . You think this is Ok. I don’t . End of subject .

Horse puckey. You want to feel bad for some pawn used in a political hack attack that didn't work, you go right ahead. I feel zero sympathy for Blasi Ford. Some wealthy liberal that wanted to take down Kavanaugh with some 30 year old BS story about 30 seconds at a drunken party where she was likely drunk too and you slurp that garbage up because you hate Trump.

I'm not buying it. Even if what she said is accurate, whoever did it to her stopped and let her go. Period. If it had been a serious assault, they wouldn't have let her go.

As far as whoever exposed himself at a party, what about the all the others present who don't even remember it happening? I guess they're just liars in your mind.

You had Kavanagh guilty by association before he even had a chance to defend himself because you don't believe in a justice system. You just pick a side and believe it no matter what on the barest of evidence and make excuse after excuse for the bad behavior of any evidence that proves you wrong. You've been proven wrong again and again and again.

I'm glad Kavanaugh didn't get torpedoed for that garbage accusation. BS political attack that lemmings like you eat up because you hate Trump so much. Your assessment was pathetic and showed you're willing to be part of any lying trash movement to harm someone regardless of the proof.

You''re just that kind of person who doesn't care about real justice. You just want to pile on like all the rest of the mindless mob.

[RiverDog]

To begin with Blasi Ford was victimized 2 times . Once with a sexual assault by 2 guys including BK. Pinning a 15 year old down and trying to rip a 1 piece off of her is not hanky Panky gone too far . It’s assault , attempted rape of a minor. 2 guys . Sick perverted predatory behavior you seem to have conceded occurred. That’s jail time . Same for exposing yourself and tea bagging a woman . Jail. Sure thousands of out of control people have done it and far worse but they are not on the scotus . The second victimization of Blasi Ford was by Dianne Fenstein who leaked her private letter that had only been intended as an FYI by Senators to help them make a decision . She’s still in counseling 4 decades later. I get it as a survivor of childhood sexual assault . I probably should be, might some day . The conspiracy was the sham FBI investigation. Trump was a whisker from dumping him till the Trumpanzee polls came out . It’s no point rehashing it. We will look at a man who committed at least 2 crimes against women till we are dead and gone . Something tells me Neil Gorsuch didn’t go to parties like that . You think this is Ok. I don’t . End of subject .

Horse puckey. You want to feel bad for some pawn used in a political hack attack that didn't work, you go right ahead. I feel zero sympathy for Blasi Ford. Some wealthy liberal that wanted to take down Kavanaugh with some 30 year old BS story about 30 seconds at a drunken party where she was likely drunk too and you slurp that garbage up because you hate Trump.

I'm not buying it. Even if what she said is accurate, whoever did it to her stopped and let her go. Period. If it had been a serious assault, they wouldn't have let her go.

As far as whoever exposed himself at a party, what about the all the others present who don't even remember it happening? I guess they're just liars in your mind.

You had Kavanagh guilty by association before he even had a chance to defend himself because you don't believe in a justice system. You just pick a side and believe it no matter what on the barest of evidence and make excuse after excuse for the bad behavior of any evidence that proves you wrong. You've been proven wrong again and again and again.

I'm glad Kavanaugh didn't get torpedoed for that garbage accusation. BS political attack that lemmings like you eat up because you hate Trump so much. Your assessment was pathetic and showed you're willing to be part of any lying trash movement to harm someone regardless of the proof.

You''re just that kind of person who doesn't care about real justice. You just want to pile on like all the rest of the mindless mob.

I'm with ASF on this one, my friend. We didn't hardly hear a peep out of you when Biden was faced with more serious, more recent, and more documented allegations than Kavanaugh faced, and he was applying for a much more serious job than Kavanaugh.

I'm sympathetic to sexual harassment victims and acknowledge the difficulty women have in reporting such incidents, that it's so damn difficult to prove, but when decades elapse, it's pretty apparent that even if they did occur, they've long since made peace with it and have moved on. There's a reason why we have a statute of limitations on most crimes. There's also this concept of being innocent until proven guilty.

[Hawktawk]

To begin with Blasi Ford was victimized 2 times . Once with a sexual assault by 2 guys including BK. Pinning a 15 year old down and trying to rip a 1 piece off of her is not hanky Panky gone too far . It’s assault , attempted rape of a minor. 2 guys . Sick perverted predatory behavior you seem to have conceded occurred. That’s jail time . Same for exposing yourself and tea bagging a woman . Jail. Sure thousands of out of control people have done it and far worse but they are not on the scotus . The second victimization of Blasi Ford was by Dianne Fenstein who leaked her private letter that had only been intended as an FYI by Senators to help them make a decision . She’s still in counseling 4 decades later. I get it as a survivor of childhood sexual assault . I probably should be, might some day . The conspiracy was the sham FBI investigation. Trump was a whisker from dumping him till the Trumpanzee polls came out . It’s no point rehashing it. We will look at a man who committed at least 2 crimes against women till we are dead and gone . Something tells me Neil Gorsuch didn’t go to parties like that . You think this is Ok. I don’t . End of subject .

Horse puckey. You want to feel bad for some pawn used in a political hack attack that didn't work, you go right ahead. I feel zero sympathy for Blasi Ford. Some wealthy liberal that wanted to take down Kavanaugh with some 30 year old BS story about 30 seconds at a drunken party where she was likely drunk too and you slurp that garbage up because you hate Trump.

I'm not buying it. Even if what she said is accurate, whoever did it to her stopped and let her go. Period. If it had been a serious assault, they wouldn't have let her go.

As far as whoever exposed himself at a party, what about the all the others present who don't even remember it happening? I guess they're just liars in your mind.

You had Kavanagh guilty by association before he even had a chance to defend himself because you don't believe in a justice system. You just pick a side and believe it no matter what on the barest of evidence and make excuse after excuse for the bad behavior of any evidence that proves you wrong. You've been proven wrong again and again and again.

I'm glad Kavanaugh didn't get torpedoed for that garbage accusation. BS political attack that lemmings like you eat up because you hate Trump so much. Your assessment was pathetic and showed you're willing to be part of any lying trash movement to harm someone regardless of the proof.

You''re just that kind of person who doesn't care about real justice. You just want to pile on like all the rest of the mindless mob.

I'm with ASF on this one, my friend. We didn't hardly hear a peep out of you when Biden was faced with more serious, more recent, and more documented allegations than Kavanaugh faced, and he was applying for a much more serious job than Kavanaugh.

I'm sympathetic to sexual harassment victims and acknowledge the difficulty women have in reporting such incidents, that it's so damn difficult to prove, but when decades elapse, it's pretty apparent that even if they did occur, they've long since made peace with it and have moved on. There's a reason why we have a statute of limitations on most crimes. There's also this concept of being innocent until proven guilty.[/quote]




"Baloney and baloney. And I did address Biden. Frankly something was off with the Tara Reid thing. I think something happened. But lets look it over. He was running against a guy with 25 reported victims who i also believe, a psychotic man who was trashing the presidency, ignoring a worldwide pandemic. So what do you do? Its our system, pick a turd. That's not the case with a SCOTUS nominee. there's a process he flunked with an F-.It would have been appropriate to replace him with a respectable republican judge.

As for Kavanaugh the molester flasher tea bagger , your the ones not facing reality .You dont even have the facts straight. I listened to that zit faced weasel for 2 minutes and could tell he was lying. All your name calling and ad hominin attacks on me wont change it. He lied in a powder puff fox interview, lied under oath to the senate . There were over 40 people who attempted to contact the FBI with relevant information who interviewed exactly 10 people, none under oath. None named Blasi Ford or Mark Judge. I rather doubt there are only 2 victims with a guy like that. I know there are the 2 which is enough.

There's a molester on the court and its cool with you good old boys so own it. You accept that a a guy who attempted to rape a girl and who exposed himself to another put his junk on her face is fit to sit in judgement for life. It has nothing to do with Trump. Show me where I attacked Gorsuch???. As I said before Aseas last shrill attack on my character and intellect END OF STORY. I am proud of my position."

[RiverDog]

As for Kavanaugh the molester flasher tea bagger , your the ones not facing reality .You dont even have the facts straight. I listened to that zit faced weasel for 2 minutes and could tell he was lying. All your name calling and ad hominin attacks on me wont change it. He lied in a powder puff fox interview, lied under oath to the senate . There were over 40 people who attempted to contact the FBI with relevant information who interviewed exactly 10 people, none under oath. None named Blasi Ford or Mark Judge. I rather doubt there are only 2 victims with a guy like that. I know there are the 2 which is enough.

There's a molester on the court and its cool with you good old boys so own it. You accept that a a guy who attempted to rape a girl and who exposed himself to another put his junk on her face is fit to sit in judgement for life. It has nothing to do with Trump. Show me where I attacked Gorsuch???. As I said before Aseas last shrill attack on my character and intellect END OF STORY. I am proud of my position."

I told you that we'd send Hawktalk bouncing off the walls again if we dredged up Kavanaugh.

[Hawktawk]

I am not the only one “ bouncing off the walls “. Launching on me for believing what half the country did is more off the rails than my factual and moral argument . One of us is right and one is wrong . There’s no grey area

. As for the OT Epstein’s pimp who procured over 1000 girls over the years “hung” himself in prison the other day. No cameras , no witnesses . On phone and too stupid to link but sounds familiar . I doubt Maxwell will say anything .

[RiverDog]

I am not the only one “ bouncing off the walls “. Launching on me for believing what half the country did is more off the rails than my factual and moral argument . One of us is right and one is wrong . There’s no grey area

. As for the OT Epstein’s pimp who procured over 1000 girls over the years “hung” himself in prison the other day. No cameras , no witnesses . On phone and too stupid to link but sounds familiar . I doubt Maxwell will say anything .

I'm not clear as to how you are able to calculate that half of the country subscribes to your "factual moral argument", that Kavanaugh is a "zit faced weasel" and a "molester flasher tea bagger" as opinions of his qualifications to serve on SCOTUS are largely determined by one's political ideology vs a belief in the accuracy or timeliness of the unproven allegations that arose during his confirmation. Even if Ms. Ford hadn't testified, the vote in the Senate and public opinion on his qualifications would have broken largely along ideological lines much as it did with Gorsuch and likely will do with Biden's nominee.

I saw what you were talking about regarding Epstein's former associate being found dead in his jail cell. I have no idea of the evidence or circumstances surrounding the incident, but I will say that it's not unusual for a person accused of sexually abusing minors to commit suicide vs. other crimes. One of my friends from work was accused by his teenage stepdaughter of sexually abusing her, and he committed suicide on the day he was to be arraigned. Part of it could be that there's a code in prison, with cop killers being at the top of the pyramid and child rapists at the bottom (see Jeffery Dahmer). It's a more difficult crime for a human being with any kind of conscious to reconcile than are other transgressions. Even if they're innocent, the shame and humiliation of being accused of it is more than a lot of people can handle.

[Aseahawkfan]

I am not the only one “ bouncing off the walls “. Launching on me for believing what half the country did is more off the rails than my factual and moral argument . One of us is right and one is wrong . There’s no grey area

. As for the OT Epstein’s pimp who procured over 1000 girls over the years “hung” himself in prison the other day. No cameras , no witnesses . On phone and too stupid to link but sounds familiar . I doubt Maxwell will say anything .

And you're wrong. You'll never admit you're wrong. You love to claim people are guilty of lots of stupid crap without trial or proof. You do it all the time. If you ran the legal system, it would be total lunacy based on who you liked and who you didn't.

You have completely ignored all the people who stood up on Kavanaugh's behalf and only sided with his accusers. That's you right there. You don't like Trump, so you don't like Kavanaugh, so you don't believe anyone that contradicts what Kavanaugh is accused of even though he had a ton of people stand up for him and also other people present at both parties say they saw nothing of what Ford or the other woman accused him of. One of the people accusing him was clearly a liar being exploited by that scumbag Avenatti.

Should have been very clear to you that it was a political hit job that Democrats tried to exploit. But you don't care about the dirty crap the Democrats do as long as it's against Trump who continues to dodge all the so called charges you were absolutely sure he did.

I've never seen a group who so clearly let's there emotions overcome all reason and evidence as the Trump hating crowd. Hard to catch a guy for real crimes and problems if the people going after him are so emotionally driven by hate that you can easily dismiss their attacks as irrational, biased, and ridiculous. It's why Trump continues to give everyone the finger and play the lot of the emotional jackwads as fools.

[I-5]

Sorry I missed a few of these comments until now. Back to Prince Andrew, we'll never know if he's innocent or guilty in a court of law after this settlement, but his reputation was already destroyed before he paid her off, so by paying off someone he claimed in 2019 he didn't even know nor met, his guilt is now cemented in the public's eye. The way the crass Britain put it in nursery rhyme form,

“The grand old Duke of York, he had 12 million quid. He gave it to someone he’d never met, for something he never did".

If you're innocent, you just don't pay off a stranger you claim don't even know unless you think they have something on you.

As for inviting gold diggers to blackmail someone, it would only work if they had actual leverage...and bad publicity isn't leverage. I'm sure if someone totally unconnected to Prince Andrew tried to take him to court over fabricated accusations hoping to get a settlement in exchange for shutting up, I'm 1000% sure he would laugh it off and not pay a penny....or quid as it were.

[RiverDog]

Sorry I missed a few of these comments until now. Back to Prince Andrew, we'll never know if he's innocent or guilty in a court of law after this settlement, but his reputation was already destroyed before he paid her off, so by paying off someone he claimed in 2019 he didn't even know nor met, his guilt is now cemented in the public's eye. The way the crass Britain put it in nursery rhyme form,

“The grand old Duke of York, he had 12 million quid. He gave it to someone he’d never met, for something he never did".

If you're innocent, you just don't pay off a stranger you claim don't even know unless you think they have something on you.

As for inviting gold diggers to blackmail someone, it would only work if they had actual leverage...and bad publicity isn't leverage. I'm sure if someone totally unconnected to Prince Andrew tried to take him to court over fabricated accusations hoping to get a settlement in exchange for shutting up, I'm 1000% sure he would laugh it off and not pay a penny....or quid as it were.

Yeah, in my mind, there's no question that "the grand ole Duke of York" was guilty of something. It may not have been the precise accusations leveled by the women he paid off, but he definitely wanted to get it behind him and thwart an investigation. There's too much that has come out over the past couple of years that he has to have participated in at least some of the improprieties that have been raised by multiple individuals.

As far as Andrew's reputation goes, it's fitting and to the point of being comical as Britain's fascination with the Royal Family is on the verge of perversion. It killed Princess Di and drove away Harry and Meghan.

But I disagree that bad publicity isn't leverage. Depending on the situation, public image is the mother's milk for a lot of high rollers and is precisely the reason why guys like Trump pay hush money to porn stars that couldn't possibly win a civil case in court.

[I-5]

Yeah, in my mind, there's no question that "the grand ole Duke of York" was guilty of something. It may not have been the precise accusations leveled by the women he paid off, but he definitely wanted to get it behind him and thwart an investigation. There's too much that has come out over the past couple of years that he has to have participated in at least some of the improprieties that have been raised by multiple individuals.

As far as Andrew's reputation goes, it's fitting and to the point of being comical as Britain's fascination with the Royal Family is on the verge of perversion. It killed Princess Di and drove away Harry and Meghan.

But I disagree that bad publicity isn't leverage. Depending on the situation, public image is the mother's milk for a lot of high rollers and is precisely the reason why guys like Trump pay hush money to porn stars that couldn't possibly win a civil case in court.

Riv, I'm pretty sure the truth is much much more and much worse than what Virginia Giuffre tells. She doesn't know the full scope of Epstein - only her experience in it for a couple years. Epstein's world wouldn't exist without clients like the prince. She has the receipts for all the places she says Epstein took her, too, in the form of boxes and boxes of photos she took of herself that a poor girl from the Florida burbs would have no chance of ever seeing.

Do you really imagine a random stranger could extort $12M from the prince based on a fabrication? I don't think anyone believes that for a second. The brit press may be obsessed with the Royal Family, but if Giuffre had leveled this charge against Bill, or Woody Allen, or Trump, it would be no less a scandal.

[Hawktawk]

I am not the only one “ bouncing off the walls “. Launching on me for believing what half the country did is more off the rails than my factual and moral argument . One of us is right and one is wrong . There’s no grey area

. As for the OT Epstein’s pimp who procured over 1000 girls over the years “hung” himself in prison the other day. No cameras , no witnesses . On phone and too stupid to link but sounds familiar . I doubt Maxwell will say anything .

And you're wrong. You'll never admit you're wrong. You love to claim people are guilty of lots of stupid crap without trial or proof. You do it all the time. If you ran the legal system, it would be total lunacy based on who you liked and who you didn't.

You have completely ignored all the people who stood up on Kavanaugh's behalf and only sided with his accusers. That's you right there. You don't like Trump, so you don't like Kavanaugh, so you don't believe anyone that contradicts what Kavanaugh is accused of even though he had a ton of people stand up for him and also other people present at both parties say they saw nothing of what Ford or the other woman accused him of. One of the people accusing him was clearly a liar being exploited by that scumbag Avenatti.

Should have been very clear to you that it was a political hit job that Democrats tried to exploit. But you don't care about the dirty crap the Democrats do as long as it's against Trump who continues to dodge all the so called charges you were absolutely sure he did.

I've never seen a group who so clearly let's there emotions overcome all reason and evidence as the Trump hating crowd. Hard to catch a guy for real crimes and problems if the people going after him are so emotionally driven by hate that you can easily dismiss their attacks as irrational, biased, and ridiculous. It's why Trump continues to give everyone the finger and play the lot of the emotional jackwads as fools.[/quote]

Kavanaugh was not on trial . It was the court of public opinion . He’s a liar . Not sure why you keep going off the rails . All his current associates have no idea who he was when he and his buddy sexually asssaulted a 15 year old and tried to rip off her swimsuit . I can see it in my minds eye . I have 2 sisters and a daughter who were assaulted . 1 sister has had a broken life of drug abuse , sex trade , now in her 50s still dysfunctional . My other sister is a tenured UW professor specializing in addictive behaviors , counseling people who have these sick urges . Unfortunately my daughter in her mid 30s is on the streets of Portland abusing opiates . She’s danced , prostituted herself , swindled people become someone I don’t recognize anymore .they cut themselves . An estimated 90 % of people in the sex trade are former victims . So I take it seriously . Liberals can actually be molested by conservatives , it’s not always politics. . Sick and tired of hearing about how this is about Trump . Pull up my critical posts about Gorsuch or stop spitting it . I’m anti sexual abuser on the court . Better yet find the sex accuser in the democratic playbook that accused Gorsuch ? Why make all this up just to wind up with another conservative justice ?

I know the FBI sure wasn’t listening to the 40 plus witnesses who were not allowed to give accounts . Innocent guys don’t do a powder puff fox interview . They don’t huddle at the White House with a phalanx of lawyers for 3 days before any public denial .

I believe the woman for a whole bunch of common sense reasons . Many listed here . As for a court of law I request to be left off juries due to a dysfunctional inability to believe guilty people’s bullsh@t. You believe it’s fine he’s on the court if it’s true he assaulted a 15 year old with his wingman .
I don’t . End of story unless you have another rant .

[RiverDog]

Riv, I'm pretty sure the truth is much much more and much worse than what Virginia Giuffre tells. She doesn't know the full scope of Epstein - only her experience in it for a couple years. Epstein's world wouldn't exist without clients like the prince. She has the receipts for all the places she says Epstein took her, too, in the form of boxes and boxes of photos she took of herself that a poor girl from the Florida burbs would have no chance of ever seeing.

Quite possibly, but we'll never know for sure. I haven't followed it as closely as you have, but the evidence you mentioned, ie receipts, boxes of photos, etc, would in my mind would be sufficient to vote for a conviction on a civil charge if I were on a jury, but I'd have to take a closer look at it or see some other piece of the puzzle for a criminal conviction. In other words, it's more likely than not (civil standard) that he did as alleged but it might not be beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal).

My belief in Andrew's guilt is based on the theory that things of this nature don't happen just once or with one person. They generally happen over the course of years and with multiple individuals, so if it were just this one person making accusations, I'd be less inclined to believe it. But when two, three, four, and more accusers start to come forward and when other players in the same network start to be exposed, the odds of all of them lying or being gold diggers becomes more and more remote.

Do you really imagine a random stranger could extort $12M from the prince based on a fabrication?

Random stranger? Of course, not. A casual acquaintance with a low sense of ethics? A disgruntled employee? A consensual one-night stand? Absolutely!

[I-5]

My belief in Andrew's guilt is based on the theory that things of this nature don't happen just once or with one person. They generally happen over the course of years and with multiple individuals, so if it were just this one person making accusations, I'd be less inclined to believe it. But when two, three, four, and more accusers start to come forward and when other players in the same network start to be exposed, the odds of all of them lying or being gold diggers becomes more and more remote.

That's exactly it. We won't know any more about Virginia Giuffre because of the settlement, but it doesn't end any action with someone else, if there is a someone else.

Random stranger? Of course, not. A casual acquaintance with a low sense of ethics? A disgruntled employee? A consensual one-night stand? Absolutely!

He would have no trouble fending off these types, since he already has had a disgruntled employee speak out, and he didn't even bother responding (which is the correct call). A one night stand is not shocking for this prince, but if someone tries to turn a one-night stand into a child abuse sex trafficking ring, that's an entirely different story. I'd give that as much chance of succeeding as the Pope not being catholic.

[Aseahawkfan]

Kavanaugh was not on trial . It was the court of public opinion . He’s a liar . Not sure why you keep going off the rails . All his current associates have no idea who he was when he and his buddy sexually asssaulted a 15 year old and tried to rip off her swimsuit . I can see it in my minds eye . I have 2 sisters and a daughter who were assaulted . 1 sister has had a broken life of drug abuse , sex trade , now in her 50s still dysfunctional . My other sister is a tenured UW professor specializing in addictive behaviors , counseling people who have these sick urges . Unfortunately my daughter in her mid 30s is on the streets of Portland abusing opiates . She’s danced , prostituted herself , swindled people become someone I don’t recognize anymore .they cut themselves . An estimated 90 % of people in the sex trade are former victims . So I take it seriously . Liberals can actually be molested by conservatives , it’s not always politics. . Sick and tired of hearing about how this is about Trump . Pull up my critical posts about Gorsuch or stop spitting it . I’m anti sexual abuser on the court . Better yet find the sex accuser in the democratic playbook that accused Gorsuch ? Why make all this up just to wind up with another conservative justice ?

I know the FBI sure wasn’t listening to the 40 plus witnesses who were not allowed to give accounts . Innocent guys don’t do a powder puff fox interview . They don’t huddle at the White House with a phalanx of lawyers for 3 days before any public denial .

I believe the woman for a whole bunch of common sense reasons . Many listed here . As for a court of law I request to be left off juries due to a dysfunctional inability to believe guilty people’s bullsh@t. You believe it’s fine he’s on the court if it’s true he assaulted a 15 year old with his wingman .
I don’t . End of story unless you have another rant .

Yeah. I believe Kavanaugh. I don't think he did anything wrong whatsoever. Dredging some drunken garbage claiming 30 seconds of time, and you somehow know its 30 seconds after 30 years, is total BS. Just like claiming some guy exposed himself to you at a drunken party, but no one else remembers it is BS.

I wish you would have someone do that to you where you sit there knowing they're 100% wrong and you never did it, but everyone believes them 100% because they're part of a movement that has no interest in justice. I really want you to experience that so you can see how rotten a person you've been in regards to Kavanaugh.

[I-5]

I'm not like Hawktawk though. All the stuff I read about Kavanaugh is nothing to me. 30 years ago he may have groped a girl at a party for 30 seconds is not what I look at as some kind of career ending sin. Same with his drunken tea bagging a girl at a party. Guys teabag each other and do stupid crap while drunk, but a guy does it to a girl and it's sexual assault? Do women want equality or not? I read everything I could on the Kavanaugh case. Even if he did what he did, that's not what I consider sexual assault. And even the women that said he groped her drunkenly for 30 seconds and she is somehow sure it was 30 seconds after 30 years while she was probably drunk at the same party? Give me a break. Whoever did that to her whether Kavanaugh or not obviously stopped when she told them to get off. The other lady who was also drunk remembers getting tea bagged by Kavanaugh at a college party? So if a guy gets tea bagged, it's sexual assault now? The whole attack on Kavanaugh was rubbish. All the women who came Kavanaugh's defense saying he treated them with nothing but respect completely ignored by the media and people like Hawktawk. Guy literally had multiple women who worked under him over the years come to his defense that he never mistreated them on the job. They literally had to go back to some nameless High School Party and his college days to find something to attack Kavanaugh with. Nothing they could find about his behavior on the job and expected that to torpedo his career? It was unreal. What's the next candidate going to do? Go back to his elementary school days and have some women claiming when they were both 8 years old he did something?

This is one of the more naive things I've read. Using this example, the Green River Killer worked at a truck painting company for decades, brought pies to his church socials, and I'm sure he was thought of very highly by those acquaintances and even friends who thought they knew him well. He's still the Green River Killer. In Kavanaugh's example, the part that was left out above is that we're not talking about a middle management job - it's the highest court in the land with a lifetime appointment whose discretion and judgement affects hundreds of thousands of people. If Graham hadn't bared his fangs and come to his rescue, I'm not sure his nomination would have survived.

[Aseahawkfan]

This is one of the more naive things I've read. Using this example, the Green River Killer worked at a truck painting company for decades, brought pies to his church socials, and I'm sure he was thought of very highly by those acquaintances and even friends who thought they knew him well. He's still the Green River Killer. In Kavanaugh's example, the part that was left out above is that we're not talking about a middle management job - it's the highest court in the land with a lifetime appointment whose discretion and judgement affects hundreds of thousands of people. If Graham hadn't bared his fangs and come to his rescue, I'm not sure his nomination would have survived.

And Kavanaugh doesn't have anywhere near the evidence to support anything close to your analogy. Not even in the same ballpark. I don't know how people like you or Hawktawk can read the accusations which can at best be termed weak evidence corroborated by no one else I know of from 30 years ago. Yet this man who has worked in the various courts after High School and after college and had no sexual harassment or anything of the kind accusations. No affairs I heard about. And has done nothing but performed admirably his job helping other lawyers advance their careers both male and female.

I read thoroughly the accusations. I read the statements by character witnesses who supported him. I read the entire case. And I didn't even care if he was appointed to the Supreme Court. I literally am not religious and am not a social conservative. But nothing that I read indicated anything but extremely weak and unproven evidence of alleged wrongdoing not even corroborated by people supposedly at the events.

Once again, I wish all the people who read the evidence would be tried and convicted in the court of public opinion on 30 year old recollections at drunken parties. I really wish they would be fired from their jobs or tossed in jail on such trash evidence because everyone has decided that you have to believe anything no matter how weak the evidence because...

In no way was it justice or anything of the kind. It was a political hit job so weak it had no effect stopping him. If that is all the Democratic left has to offer or fight with, then they are as bad as the crazy Republicans. They don't care about justice or truth, just win at all costs no matter who they have to smear or convict in the court of public opinion.

I seriously want some of you to have to defend yourself against such weak accusations from 30 years prior that you probably barely remember if you were even there, then have people so sure you're guilty you deserve to be fired and ostracized. You deserve it for buying into such trash.

[RiverDog]

This is one of the more naive things I've read. Using this example, the Green River Killer worked at a truck painting company for decades, brought pies to his church socials, and I'm sure he was thought of very highly by those acquaintances and even friends who thought they knew him well. He's still the Green River Killer. In Kavanaugh's example, the part that was left out above is that we're not talking about a middle management job - it's the highest court in the land with a lifetime appointment whose discretion and judgement affects hundreds of thousands of people. If Graham hadn't bared his fangs and come to his rescue, I'm not sure his nomination would have survived.

I have a little different take on what changed undecided Senators and public opinion as opposed to Graham "baring his fangs". IMO it was Kavanaugh's passionate, emotionally charged emphatic denial, made under oath and bringing him nearly to tears, that made him more believable than his accuser and changed the course of the nomination, very similar to Clarence Thomas' "high tech lynching" remark he made in his defense during his hearing.

Say what you want about Kavanaugh, but that was a very powerful, emotional denial, a reaction that many of us would have experienced had we been accused of something we didn't do and caused a lot of people to identify with his predicament.

And as long as we're talking about evidence, here's some of the problems with Ms. Ford's story:

Ford still can’t recall basic details of what she says was the most traumatic event in her life. Not where the “assault” took place — she’s not sure whose house it was, or even what street it was on. Nor when — she’s not even sure of the year, let alone the day and month.

Ford’s not certain how old she was or what grade she was in when she says an older student violently molested her. (But she doesn’t plead inebriation: She described having just “one beer” at the party.)

Ford concedes she told no one what happened to her at the time, not even her best friend or mother. That means she can rely on no contemporaneous witness to corroborate her story.

Worse, the four other people she identified as attending the party, including Kavanaugh, all deny knowledge of the gathering in question, including Leland Ingham Keyser, who she calls a “lifelong friend.”

The other two potential witnesses — Mark Judge and Patrick “P.J.” Smyth — also deny any recollection of attending such a party. The committee took their sworn statements “under penalty of perjury.”

Her own immediate family doesn’t appear to be backing her up, either. Her mother, father and two siblings are all conspicuously absent from a letter of support released by a dozen relatives, mostly on her husband’s side of the family. Ford tried to reach out to old friends from high school and college to jog her memory. They couldn’t help her.

Ford contends that notes her therapist took in 2012 corroborate her account. But they don’t mention Kavanaugh....Ford told her there were “four boys” in the bedroom, not two as she now says. The notes also indicate Ford said she was in her “late teens” when she was assaulted. But Ford now says she may have been only 15.

Ford told The Washington Post she was upset when Trump won in 2016, because Kavanaugh was mentioned as a Supreme Court pick. But Kavanaugh wasn’t added to Trump’s list of possibles until November 2017, a full year later.

https://nypost.com/2018/09/25/eight-big ... rds-story/

In summary, Ms. Ford can't remember whose house it was or what street the house was on, can't remember within 2 years of how old she was, can't remember whether there were 2 or 4 others in the room, can't find any contemporary witnesses to back her up, including immediate family and people she describes as close friends, admits having been drinking (just one beer? Yea, right!), is untruthful in her more recent statement about Kavanaugh's possible SCOTUS nomination, yet you choose to believe her vs. multiple others that claim it didn't happen?

And once again, this alleged event occurred 37 years ago, and they were teenagers at the time.

Ms. Ford is a registered Democrat and was active in fund raising during the 2016 campaign, marching in anti Trump rallies. That's pretty good evidence to the possibility that she was politically motivated. She had an opportunity to file her complaint when Kavanaugh was nominated as a US Circuit Court judge, not exactly a middle management job, back in 2006 when the Senate held a confirmation hearing. But it was crickets.

I wouldn't have replied had it been Hawktalk that made the comment as I know how he feels and there's no sense debating him as he literally goes bonkers anytime Kavanaugh's name is mentioned. But I thought that you might be little more rational and objective about the issue, so when I saw you start calling others naive, I had to respond. Pot calling the kettle black.

[RiverDog]

Random stranger? Of course, not. A casual acquaintance with a low sense of ethics? A disgruntled employee? A consensual one-night stand? Absolutely!

He(Prince Andrew) would have no trouble fending off these types, since he already has had a disgruntled employee speak out, and he didn't even bother responding (which is the correct call). A one night stand is not shocking for this prince, but if someone tries to turn a one-night stand into a child abuse sex trafficking ring, that's an entirely different story. I'd give that as much chance of succeeding as the Pope not being catholic.

Once again, I'm not talking about Prince Andrew. I'm talking about some other individual not associated with Epstein or anyone else. It is entirely possible for a gold digger to make up a charge and frame an innocent person, and these very public payouts serve as a motivation. Just my humble opinion.

I do not think that Andrew paid off a gold digger. There's simply too many other accusers, too many other high rollers that are involved in the scandal, for it all to have been concocted. If he wasn't guilty of that specific accusation, there's many others that he has to explain. It conforms to a pattern, making the accusation believable. IMO he paid her off so as to avoid opening a Pandora's box, that evidence introduced in one trial could lead to others making similar claims. He cut his losses.

But I have my doubts about a criminal involvement. For example, I'm not sure if Andrew knew if any of the girls were minors, if they were there against their will, or that they were procured and trafficked. A reasonable person should have concluded that something wasn't right, that young, attractive girls just don't willingly jump in bed for middle aged men and at the very least it was a prostitution ring, but I don't think that's good enough evidence to put him behind bars.

[Aseahawkfan]

Tons of people probably visited Epstein's island. Very wealthy and powerful people who look at the working class population as their servants to be used as they wish.

Remember Roman Polanski? The director who drugged and raped a 13 year old girl. https://www.indiewire.com/2009/09/over-100-in-film-community-sign-polanski-petition-55821/ Here's the article of how many Hollywood Elite signed a petition to let Polanski back in the United States so he could make great films again.

That's how the wealthy who visited Epstein view the regular working people. Do you think they care that regular people's young daughters were used for sex by wealthy and powerful people? Nope. They're only mad because they got caught and it looks bad. Gotta keep up appearances.

I'm sure Prince Andrew was told "He can play with the peasant toys, but he has to make sure the peasant voters don't find out."

[I-5]

Tons of people probably visited Epstein's island. Very wealthy and powerful people who look at the working class population as their servants to be used as they wish.

Remember Roman Polanski? The director who drugged and raped a 13 year old girl. https://www.indiewire.com/2009/09/over-100-in-film-community-sign-polanski-petition-55821/ Here's the article of how many Hollywood Elite signed a petition to let Polanski back in the United States so he could make great films again.

That's how the wealthy who visited Epstein view the regular working people. Do you think they care that regular people's young daughters were used for sex by wealthy and powerful people? Nope. They're only mad because they got caught and it looks bad. Gotta keep up appearances.

I'm sure Prince Andrew was told "He can play with the peasant toys, but he has to make sure the peasant voters don't find out."

I'm sure this is the case, and I'm equally sure that is the reason Epstein died in his cell with miraculously no guards or cameras around to record it....

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm sure this is the case, and I'm equally sure that is the reason Epstein died in his cell with miraculously no guards or cameras around to record it....

I'm surprised Ghislaine is still alive. But maybe they have sufficient control of her to make sure she only sacrifices people no one cares about.

[RiverDog]

I'm sure this is the case, and I'm equally sure that is the reason Epstein died in his cell with miraculously no guards or cameras around to record it....

There are videos of the hallway outside of Epstein's jail cell, and they supposedly show that no one entered or exited the cell, so it's pretty clear that it wasn't murder. However, that doesn't preclude the possibility that Epstein might have been allowed to commit suicide or had some sort of enabler.

It's interesting, because the Justice Department was supposed to release the results of their investigation into Epstein's death over a year ago, but I can't find it via a search. They understandably initially withheld the results as charges against several of the guards were still pending and the public release of that information might have interfered with their right to a fair trial, but those cases were closed in December of 2019:

The Justice Department has a clear path to release its investigation into how Jeffrey Epstein died in jail, more than 2 years after the financier's suicide

https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-depa ... 48394.html

I could understand that the previous justice department might have been pressured by Trump not to release the report, but what's been the hold-up with Biden's DOJ?

[Aseahawkfan]

There are videos of the hallway outside of Epstein's jail cell, and they supposedly show that no one entered or exited the cell, so it's pretty clear that it wasn't murder. However, that doesn't preclude the possibility that Epstein might have been allowed to commit suicide or had some sort of enabler.

It's interesting, because the Justice Department was supposed to release the results of their investigation into Epstein's death over a year ago, but I can't find it via a search. They understandably initially withheld the results as charges against several of the guards were still pending and the public release of that information might have interfered with their right to a fair trial, but those cases were closed in December of 2019:

The Justice Department has a clear path to release its investigation into how Jeffrey Epstein died in jail, more than 2 years after the financier's suicide

https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-depa ... 48394.html

I could understand that the previous justice department might have been pressured by Trump not to release the report, but what's been the hold-up with Biden's DOJ?

I wouldn't buy anything they're selling. Someone figured things out even though the incompetent guards somehow didn't keep watch on a prisoner holding the names of a bunch of wealthy, powerful pedophiles. But the video shows no one went in like that can't be doctored. There is zero ways you're convincing me barring god-like powers to transport me to Epstein's cell during the time of his death that he wasn't murdered.

Why would you have such a light guard force for a billionaire pedophile who ran an island of underage women he invited wealthy and powerful business, political, and world elite to for pleasure? If you ran the investigation and really wanted to bring a case against some of the most powerful people in the world for being pedophiles, would you leave him in his cell alone ever? Just think it out as if you were in charge of the case and you had a guy you arrested who hobnobbed with presidents, billionaires, royals, powerful tech entrepreneurs, who basically employed a madame and a pimp that recruited underaged girls. You tell me as a manager, would you have run the security for this individual in a way he would have had time to hang himself?

At best he was allowed to commit suicide and at worst someone was already waiting in the cell or the tapes are doctored. I'm still surprised Maxwell is still alive.

[RiverDog]

I wouldn't buy anything they're selling. Someone figured things out even though the incompetent guards somehow didn't keep watch on a prisoner holding the names of a bunch of wealthy, powerful pedophiles. But the video shows no one went in like that can't be doctored. There is zero ways you're convincing me barring god-like powers to transport me to Epstein's cell during the time of his death that he wasn't murdered.

Why would you have such a light guard force for a billionaire pedophile who ran an island of underage women he invited wealthy and powerful business, political, and world elite to for pleasure? If you ran the investigation and really wanted to bring a case against some of the most powerful people in the world for being pedophiles, would you leave him in his cell alone ever? Just think it out as if you were in charge of the case and you had a guy you arrested who hobnobbed with presidents, billionaires, royals, powerful tech entrepreneurs, who basically employed a madame and a pimp that recruited underaged girls. You tell me as a manager, would you have run the security for this individual in a way he would have had time to hang himself?

At best he was allowed to commit suicide and at worst someone was already waiting in the cell or the tapes are doctored. I'm still surprised Maxwell is still alive.

I'm not necessarily 'buying' anything, and I don't have an answer for your questions, indeed, they're virtually the same questions I'm curious of. But I do think that we can boil it down to one of two things: Either someone participated in some manner in Epstein's death or there was gross incompetence, either due to staffing issues or incompetence of multiple individuals. Either way, it's a huge government f-up.

I'm not surprised that Maxwell is still alive. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I can only imagine that after having grossly botched the Epstein confinement for the entire world to see, that they're not about to f-up Maxwell's. They probably have guards guarding the guards that are guarding the guards that are guarding Maxwell.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not necessarily 'buying' anything, and I don't have an answer for your questions, indeed, they're virtually the same questions I'm curious of. But I do think that we can boil it down to one of two things: Either someone participated in some manner in Epstein's death or there was gross incompetence, either due to staffing issues or incompetence of multiple individuals. Either way, it's a huge government f-up.

I'm not surprised that Maxwell is still alive. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I can only imagine that after having grossly botched the Epstein confinement for the entire world to see, that they're not about to f-up Maxwell's. They probably have guards guarding the guards that are guarding the guards that are guarding Maxwell.

I know what I think is happening. I'll list it here to see whether I'm right or wrong.

The powerful folks involved in this know murdering a second incarcerated person and a woman is a bad idea. No one will buy a second murder or suicide.

So as you say, they have her well-guarded. But she's been visited and coached by representatives of various parties involved. They have figured out what fish to let her fry and it won't be any big fish that we know much about, just some small fish we've probably never heard of. The case won't amount to much. She'll get confinement, and maybe she'll be allowed to live if she can pull off the believable frying of the small fish. After that she'll either be offed in prison after she is forgotten about or allowed to live as long as everything goes quiet.

We'll see at some point. But right now she is being carefully coached and evidence is being sifted to see who will get cooked. If it becomes too much of an issue, someone will off her or she'll die of "natural" causes or suicide again.

But this case is on the back burner now with everything else going on. So they might be able to sweep it under the carpet real nice at this point.

[I-5]

There are videos of the hallway outside of Epstein's jail cell, and they supposedly show that no one entered or exited the cell, so it's pretty clear that it wasn't murder. However, that doesn't preclude the possibility that Epstein might have been allowed to commit suicide or had some sort of enabler.

It's interesting, because the Justice Department was supposed to release the results of their investigation into Epstein's death over a year ago, but I can't find it via a search. They understandably initially withheld the results as charges against several of the guards were still pending and the public release of that information might have interfered with their right to a fair trial, but those cases were closed in December of 2019:

The Justice Department has a clear path to release its investigation into how Jeffrey Epstein died in jail, more than 2 years after the financier's suicide

https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-depa ... 48394.html

I could understand that the previous justice department might have been pressured by Trump not to release the report, but what's been the hold-up with Biden's DOJ?

Curious why he might have been 'allowed' to commit suicide - do you mean bribing someone in charge to look the other way? I guess that's possible.
However, regarding the official cause of death as suicide by hanging, I also read conflicting reports saying the injuries Epstein sustained were as consistent, if not more so, with strangulation or homicide as with suicide.