Epstein Case - Twists and Turns

[Aseahawkfan]

If you've ever seen The Godfather 2, Riverdog likely means something like when Tom Hagen showed up to talk to Frank Pantangele in witness protection and basically had a conversation about Romans who failed to kill the emperor. They were allowed to commit suicide to preserve their families and fortunes. Not sure if Epstein had anyone he cared about, but I have little doubt the people involved in all of this will not hold off killing someone's family to keep them quiet. To them if the choice is being revealed as a pedophile, a very public and humiliating trial with jail time, or kill someone's wife, husband, or children or parents, the shelf-life on that family is low if the person in question does not take the offer.

In The Godfather Don Michael showed up with Frank's brother to send a clear message of what happens if Frank sells out the Corleone family. It wasn't only his life on the line, but the lives of everyone he cares about. I have zero doubt the same is on the line for anyone trying to take down a ring of wealthy pedophiles. You can take them down, sure, but they will take you down with them and everyone you care about.

[I-5]

If you've ever seen The Godfather 2, Riverdog likely means something like when Tom Hagen showed up to talk to Frank Pantangele in witness protection and basically had a conversation about Romans who failed to kill the emperor. They were allowed to commit suicide to preserve their families and fortunes. Not sure if Epstein had anyone he cared about, but I have little doubt the people involved in all of this will not hold off killing someone's family to keep them quiet. To them if the choice is being revealed as a pedophile, a very public and humiliating trial with jail time, or kill someone's wife, husband, or children or parents, the shelf-life on that family is low if the person in question does not take the offer.

In The Godfather Don Michael showed up with Frank's brother to send a clear message of what happens if Frank sells out the Corleone family. It wasn't only his life on the line, but the lives of everyone he cares about. I have zero doubt the same is on the line for anyone trying to take down a ring of wealthy pedophiles. You can take them down, sure, but they will take you down with them and everyone you care about.

I think Epstein was a known narcissist, so while the Godfather example is possible, it requires thinking about others, which from what I've seen of Epstein, that's not one of his traits.

[RiverDog]

If you've ever seen The Godfather 2, Riverdog likely means something like when Tom Hagen showed up to talk to Frank Pantangele in witness protection and basically had a conversation about Romans who failed to kill the emperor. They were allowed to commit suicide to preserve their families and fortunes. Not sure if Epstein had anyone he cared about, but I have little doubt the people involved in all of this will not hold off killing someone's family to keep them quiet. To them if the choice is being revealed as a pedophile, a very public and humiliating trial with jail time, or kill someone's wife, husband, or children or parents, the shelf-life on that family is low if the person in question does not take the offer.

In The Godfather Don Michael showed up with Frank's brother to send a clear message of what happens if Frank sells out the Corleone family. It wasn't only his life on the line, but the lives of everyone he cares about. I have zero doubt the same is on the line for anyone trying to take down a ring of wealthy pedophiles. You can take them down, sure, but they will take you down with them and everyone you care about.

I think Epstein was a known narcissist, so while the Godfather example is possible, it requires thinking about others, which from what I've seen of Epstein, that's not one of his traits.

In order for a Godfather-like intimidation to work, one has to belong to a family with strong internal ties. Epstein never married and had no kids of his own, both of his parents are deceased, and his only sibling is his brother Mark, of whom the two were never very close to one another. He was truly a loner.

[I-5]

In order for a Godfather-like intimidation to work, one has to belong to a family with strong internal ties. Epstein never married and had no kids of his own. both of his parents are deceased, and his only sibling is his brother Mark, of whom the two were never very close to one another. He was truly a loner.

Yup exactly. That's why a loner narcissist committing suicide in this situation seems unlikely - except for the prospect of spending the rest of his years in a barren cell (or being raped in prison) was too much.

[Aseahawkfan]

You are both right. Then he was likely murdered.

[RiverDog]

In order for a Godfather-like intimidation to work, one has to belong to a family with strong internal ties. Epstein never married and had no kids of his own. both of his parents are deceased, and his only sibling is his brother Mark, of whom the two were never very close to one another. He was truly a loner.

Yup exactly. That's why a loner narcissist committing suicide in this situation seems unlikely - except for the prospect of spending the rest of his years in a barren cell (or being raped in prison) was too much.

IMO Epstein's family situation neither supports nor undermines the notion that it was suicide.

There's not a more powerful motivation for suicide than the prospect of spending the rest of your life in prison, especially for a convicted child rapist/molester, especially after you're used to rubbing elbows with the rich and powerful, a billionaire that comes from Wall Street and suddenly dumped into the mix with boys from the hood. There's a hierarchy amongst the inmates, with child molesters like Epstein at the very bottom of it. Epstein would have been subjected to a living hell for the rest of his life.

[Aseahawkfan]

IMO Epstein's family situation neither supports nor undermines the notion that it was suicide.

There's not a more powerful motivation for suicide than the prospect of spending the rest of your life in prison, especially for a convicted child rapist/molester, especially after you're used to rubbing elbows with the rich and powerful, a billionaire that comes from Wall Street and suddenly dumped into the mix with boys from the hood. There's a hierarchy amongst the inmates, with child molesters like Epstein at the very bottom of it. Epstein would have been subjected to a living hell for the rest of his life.

You think a guy like Epstein is going to do regular prison time when he can trade the names of the rich and powerful for leniency? I doubt that.

Do you have any previous evidence a billionaire goes to regular prison when he has the names of so many powerful people to trade?

[RiverDog]

IMO Epstein's family situation neither supports nor undermines the notion that it was suicide.

There's not a more powerful motivation for suicide than the prospect of spending the rest of your life in prison, especially for a convicted child rapist/molester, especially after you're used to rubbing elbows with the rich and powerful, a billionaire that comes from Wall Street and suddenly dumped into the mix with boys from the hood. There's a hierarchy amongst the inmates, with child molesters like Epstein at the very bottom of it. Epstein would have been subjected to a living hell for the rest of his life.

You think a guy like Epstein is going to do regular prison time when he can trade the names of the rich and powerful for leniency? I doubt that.

With all the publicity that surrounded Epstein and being that he had received an extremely light, highly controversial sentence after a similar conviction back in 2008, there's no way that he could have plea bargained his way out again. His goose was cooked, and he knew it.

Epstein likely would have drawn a medium security type prison similar to what Bernie Madoff served in, ie a medium security prison, and although it's not like maximum security, it's still not a fun place to live in, especially if you're a sex offender. No way would they have given him a country club assignment, ie minimum security.

Do you have any previous evidence a billionaire goes to regular prison when he has the names of so many powerful people to trade?

Yup. Bernie Madoff spent time in a medium security unit in a federal prison in North Carolina.

[Aseahawkfan]

With all the publicity that surrounded Epstein and being that he had received an extremely light, highly controversial sentence after a similar conviction back in 2008, there's no way that he could have plea bargained his way out again. His goose was cooked, and he knew it.

Epstein likely would have drawn a medium security type prison similar to what Bernie Madoff served in, ie a medium security prison, and although it's not like maximum security, it's still not a fun place to live in, especially if you're a sex offender. No way would they have given him a country club assignment, ie minimum security.

You think he couldn't have plea bargained? I think he could have. That guy died with names that are bigger than him by a good measure.

Yup. Bernie Madoff spent time in a medium security unit in a federal prison in North Carolina.

Bernie Madoff did not have the names of powerful, wealthy pedophiles. Apples and oranges.

This isn't some financial crime. This was pedophilia. Wealthy, powerful individuals being exposed as pedophiles. Not tax evasion or some ponzi scheme.

The reason Epstein was murdered was because he did have a lot of names to give up. I still can't believe you think he was well watched when he was so easily able to commit suicide in a way that isn't even immediate. How did he get left alone long enough to hang himself? A guy with the names of wealthy, powerful pedophiles in both political parties and from around the world somehow is left alone long enough to contrive some means to hang himself, then left alone long enough to die with no real attempt to revive him.

C'mon, man. Epstein couldn't have plea bargained? You really believe that? A guy who has presidents and billionaires on his plane? And wealthy princes?

I told you this guy was marked for death before he died. No one wanted this guy alive in either political party or amongst the wealthy. That's why he was left as exposed as he was.

I can't believe you're buying the story when it is pretty clear Epstein had names that can easily engineer his death and a cover up.

[I-5]

Yeah, I'm sure he was murdered too.

[RiverDog]

With all the publicity that surrounded Epstein and being that he had received an extremely light, highly controversial sentence after a similar conviction back in 2008, there's no way that he could have plea bargained his way out again. His goose was cooked, and he knew it.

Epstein likely would have drawn a medium security type prison similar to what Bernie Madoff served in, ie a medium security prison, and although it's not like maximum security, it's still not a fun place to live in, especially if you're a sex offender. No way would they have given him a country club assignment, ie minimum security.

You think he couldn't have plea bargained? I think he could have. That guy died with names that are bigger than him by a good measure.

Correct. Plea bargaining, at least on the scale of what he was able to do in his previous conviction, wasn't an option.

The reason Epstein was murdered was because he did have a lot of names to give up. I still can't believe you think he was well watched when he was so easily able to commit suicide in a way that isn't even immediate. How did he get left alone long enough to hang himself? A guy with the names of wealthy, powerful pedophiles in both political parties and from around the world somehow is left alone long enough to contrive some means to hang himself, then left alone long enough to die with no real attempt to revive him.

C'mon, man. Epstein couldn't have plea bargained? You really believe that? A guy who has presidents and billionaires on his plane? And wealthy princes?

I told you this guy was marked for death before he died. No one wanted this guy alive in either political party or amongst the wealthy. That's why he was left as exposed as he was.

I can't believe you're buying the story when it is pretty clear Epstein had names that can easily engineer his death and a cover up.

All you're telling me is why people would be motivated to kill Epstein. That's just one element of a crime, ie why he was killed. Start telling me how they could get into and out of his cell without being observed.

I don't disbelieve that it was murder, or at the very least, that Epstein was allowed to kill himself. But especially given what we've learned regarding the culture in that specific facility and in the federal prison system nation wide, it's quite possible that incompetence within the prison staff was a factor in his death. Sometimes chit happens.

[Aseahawkfan]

Correct. Plea bargaining, at least on the scale of what he was able to do in his previous conviction, wasn't an option.

You know this how?

All you're telling me is why people would be motivated to kill Epstein. That's just one element of a crime, ie why he was killed. Start telling me how they could get into and out of his cell without being observed.

I don't disbelieve that it was murder, or at the very least, that Epstein was allowed to kill himself. But especially given what we've learned regarding the culture in that specific facility and in the federal prison system nation wide, it's quite possible that incompetence within the prison staff was a factor in his death. Sometimes chit happens.

Pretty easily. The monitoring system was hardly sophisticated. A multibillionaire could easily pay someone to hack the system or gain access to it and modify the video footage. Has anyone actually investigated the footage?

Then there could be people in the power chain doing very little to investigate the suicide. The guards could have been interrogated not very well. And could have been told not to pay attention or they won't be here very long.

We're talking people so powerful they will ruin your life and the life of your family if you cross them.

Have you not conspicuously noticed that no other names are being associated with Epstein's crimes? Totally quiet on that front. As though things are being nicely swept under the carpet.

I cannot believe you think there are not people capable of sweeping a scandal like this under the rug including hacking some weak prison video monitoring system, doctoring the tapes, and intimidating some guards into keeping quiet. This case is dead in the water. I don't care much what you try to tell me, you are not inside any of these places. It is obvious that this case was getting killed from up on high before it even got off the ground to ensure the names of wealthy and powerful people would not go to trial or have their reputations ruined.

It's funny to me you think wealth and powerful people have no actual power. They do. You've been watching it for the past 5 or 6 years in its most obvious form as even a billionaire like Trump does awful things and people in his own party defend him and he suffers on legal consequences for his actions just by virtue of being wealthy and powerful. You watched a president during Clinton lie on the witness stand in front of America entire and suffer some minor fines. You even watched Nixon caught and walk away with no jail time or much happening to him. You watched the Iran-Contra hearings where elements in our government launched a murderous weapons deal and who got jail time? Olly North? Then he got out, wrote some books, and became a billionaire. The man was literally part of an operation that led to the murder of children in another nation, walked away mostly fine and well compensated.

Man, you really want to believe these people don't do bad things? And you think the conspiracy theorists are the nuts? You really want to be that guy that thinks these things are not possible for some reason.

No use discussing. I'm about 99% sure Epstein was offed. I don't think it was all that hard to do. He wasn't well watched for a reason. The place he was at could easily be hacked or video changed. There won't be too deep of an investigation into it. I believe Maxwell is well handled as well. No one but them will suffer because of the pedophile ring. It has been cleanly covered up.

[RiverDog]

Pretty easily. The monitoring system was hardly sophisticated. A multibillionaire could easily pay someone to hack the system or gain access to it and modify the video footage. Has anyone actually investigated the footage?

I don't know. All I know is that it would be very difficult to penetrate such a facility unless there was some significant inside cooperation.

Then there could be people in the power chain doing very little to investigate the suicide. The guards could have been interrogated not very well. And could have been told not to pay attention or they won't be here very long.

We're talking people so powerful they will ruin your life and the life of your family if you cross them.

Of course, there could be. That doesn't mean that there was or is.

Have you not conspicuously noticed that no other names are being associated with Epstein's crimes? Totally quiet on that front. As though things are being nicely swept under the carpet.

I cannot believe you think there are not people capable of sweeping a scandal like this under the rug including hacking some weak prison video monitoring system, doctoring the tapes, and intimidating some guards into keeping quiet. This case is dead in the water. I don't care much what you try to tell me, you are not inside any of these places. It is obvious that this case was getting killed from up on high before it even got off the ground to ensure the names of wealthy and powerful people would not go to trial or have their reputations ruined.

It's funny to me you think wealth and powerful people have no actual power. They do. You've been watching it for the past 5 or 6 years in its most obvious form as even a billionaire like Trump does awful things and people in his own party defend him and he suffers on legal consequences for his actions just by virtue of being wealthy and powerful. You watched a president during Clinton lie on the witness stand in front of America entire and suffer some minor fines. You even watched Nixon caught and walk away with no jail time or much happening to him. You watched the Iran-Contra hearings where elements in our government launched a murderous weapons deal and who got jail time? Olly North? Then he got out, wrote some books, and became a billionaire. The man was literally part of an operation that led to the murder of children in another nation, walked away mostly fine and well compensated.

Man, you really want to believe these people don't do bad things? And you think the conspiracy theorists are the nuts? You really want to be that guy that thinks these things are not possible for some reason.

No use discussing. I'm about 99% sure Epstein was offed. I don't think it was all that hard to do. He wasn't well watched for a reason. The place he was at could easily be hacked or video changed. There won't be too deep of an investigation into it. I believe Maxwell is well handled as well. No one but them will suffer because of the pedophile ring. It has been cleanly covered up.

Let me correct some misconceptions that you obviously have concluded about my position. I do not rule out the possibility of Epstein being murdered. I fully acknowledge that there are people out there, for various reasons, that wanted to see him dead. It is entirely possible that he could have been murdered as the result of a conspiracy.

All I am saying is that (1) outside of an inclusive autopsy, there is no physical evidence that it was anything other than a suicide, that (2) the possibility of Epstein obtaining a favorable plea bargain was extremely remote, that (3) he had previously attempted to take his own life and (4) he had plenty of reason to be so afraid of what his future held for him that it could have motivated him to take his own life.

Bottom line: Was it possible for Epstein to have been murdered? Yes, absolutely. Is it probably that he was murdered? IMO based on the lack of evidence, he probably was not.

Is it possible or probable that he took his own life? Obviously possible and quite probable, but not conclusive that he did.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't know. All I know is that it would be very difficult to penetrate such a facility unless there was some significant inside cooperation.

Of course there was inside cooperation. No one wanted Epstein alive in either political party. Nothing good comes from Epstein being alive for any of the major players who used his services.

We'll never know anyway more than likely. It's just the public record which says suicide and a bunch of us speculating otherwise.

I know if I had a magic machine we could both look into to know with 100% certainty, I'd bet a grand he was murdered before I knew one way or the other easy. I'd never bet everything I had because I don't like that kind of risk for anything. But definitely I'd pony up a 1000 on this bet. I'm pretty sure he was murdered. As far as who killed him, arranged it all, and who is pulling the strings to put the tamp on this case since no other major names have been charged, that I could not say. The list is so long that I'm not sure who is actually taking care of everything. I just know for all these names to avoid getting charged, it must be some people with serious juice in both parties making sure nothing damaging comes out of this.

[I-5]

If he was murdered (and I firmly believe he was murdered), there are too many coincidences for someone to break in when the guards weren't doing their job or the camera wasn't working. It would more likely be a coordinated incident. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by habit, but I don't see why a narcissist with no family to speak of would choose death over a semi comfortable prison stay for the rest of his life. I could be wrong.

[RiverDog]

If he was murdered (and I firmly believe he was murdered), there are too many coincidences for someone to break in when the guards weren't doing their job or the camera wasn't working. It would more likely be a coordinated incident. I'm not a conspiracy theorist by habit, but I don't see why a narcissist with no family to speak of would choose death over a semi comfortable prison stay for the rest of his life. I could be wrong.

Semi comfortable? Do you know anyone that has served time in a medium security prison, one like Bernie Madoff served in and where Epstein was likely heading? It's not posh.

In the federal prison definition, medium-security prisons are known as Federal Correctional Institutions. These prisons house their inmates in cells. A majority of their inmates has a violent past.

The Federal Correctional Institutions are enclosed with multiple fences, spools of razor wire, and armed perimeter automobiles that surveys the perimeter 24/7. They do offer their inmates a nice variety of treatment and work programs too.

Their inmate to correctional officer ratio is a lot higher than the previous two security levels. Inmates here usually have sentences up to 30 years to complete.

Being housed in a cell with prisoners that have a violent past and are serving long sentences doesn't sound very enticing for a person convicted of sex crimes.

Keep in mind that Epstein already had one documented suicide attempt. Is it really unreasonable to think that he'd make another attempt?

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QenEK2UxrBM

Interesting information on Epstein. Where he got his money and that he was protected from up on high.