Coronavirus Hype

[RiverDog]

Looks like it (testing) was a CDC decision, not Trump. That confirms what I thought that he was following the advice of his advisers. Trump likes to talk about a lot of things and listen to other people talk, but at the end of the day he listens to the true experts.

The delay in testing was a 100% CDC failure. Except for the fact that the POTUS is the head of the government and ultimately his responsibility, we can't hang that one on Trump. Part of it was just plain American arrogance and stupidity, that we just had to have our own test and not the ones the rest of the world was using.

Trump didn't start listening to his advisors until just recently, within the last week. His team of experts, led by Dr. Fauci, had some serious discussions with him that finally persuaded him to take this crisis recently. Until then, he was calling it a hoax, insisting that we could be back to normal by Easter, rate counties as high, medium, and low risk and allow businesses to re-start, and so on.

Once again I must point out this same lapse in judgment seems to have occurred worldwide at roughly the same pace. There is no indication we missed a month as most nations missed on this, which is why the outbreak is so widespread worldwide. The only nations doing testing in advance was South Korea and China, South Korea is closer to China and likely had a good idea what was going on since they got hit hard by the last few outbreaks.

South Korea ran way more tests than we did. As a matter of fact, we are just now surpassing them in the number of test conducted even though our population is 6 times theirs. They also have an advantage in that they have something like 3 times the hospital bed space that we do, and as you pointed out, the Asian culture is more accepting of authority than ours here in America and western Europe.

Suffice it to say I still don't think our slowness is what caused this. I think it has been circulating since December. I think most of the deaths and problems with it have been attributed to the flu. I think it's been here with us quite and a while and testing has just revealed the full extent. I think that will be borne out in the after action report when this thing is done and once antibody testing starts.

It didn't cause it, but it damn sure has contributed to the severity of it. Had the Mayor of New Orleans canceled Mardi Gras, it's likely they could have prevented a lot of the suffering they're going through now, but the CDC had yet to issue an advisory, and without the CDC to back her up, she hesitated, caved into the business interests. The Florida governor refused to close down the beaches even though the CDC advisory existed and honored by the NCAA, NBA, MLB, NHL, and many more organizations that canceled their events. We were late to the game in a lot of areas, and there's a lot of elected officials, including but definitely not limited to, the POTUS, that don't showed up late.

[Aseahawkfan]

The delay in testing was a 100% CDC failure. Except for the fact that the POTUS is the head of the government and ultimately his responsibility, we can't hang that one on Trump. Part of it was just plain American arrogance and stupidity, that we just had to have our own test and not the ones the rest of the world was using.

Trump didn't start listening to his advisors until just recently, within the last week. His team of experts, led by Dr. Fauci, had some serious discussions with him that finally persuaded him to take this crisis recently. Until then, he was calling it a hoax, insisting that we could be back to normal by Easter, rate counties as high, medium, and low risk and allow businesses to re-start, and so on.

Seems everywhere except South Korea was doing the same. Go figure.

South Korea ran way more tests than we did. As a matter of fact, we are just now surpassing them in the number of test conducted even though our population is 6 times theirs. They also have an advantage in that they have something like 3 times the hospital bed space that we do, and as you pointed out, the Asian culture is more accepting of authority than ours here in America and western Europe.

Apparently a previous outbreak clued them in.

It didn't cause it, but it damn sure has contributed to the severity of it. Had the Mayor of New Orleans canceled Mardi Gras, it's likely they could have prevented a lot of the suffering they're going through now, but the CDC had yet to issue an advisory, and without the CDC to back her up, she hesitated, caved into the business interests. The Florida governor refused to close down the beaches even though the CDC advisory existed and honored by the NCAA, NBA, MLB, NHL, and many more organizations that canceled their events. We were late to the game in a lot of areas, and there's a lot of elected officials, including but definitely not limited to, the POTUS, that don't showed up late.

Apparently we don't have much experience with once in a century pandemics. I guess when we have another once in a century pandemic (hopefully not for another 100 years), then we'll have some data to compare it against. For the time being let's just say I'm not going to hammer too hard on a slow reaction to an event will hopefully occur once a century. This is like those stock market crashes that occur once in a great while. Someone predicts it and suddenly 20/20 makes them look like a genius even when they were predicting crashes over and over again until they were finally right. Now all the people that were predicting a pandemic like this look like geniuses because they were finally right even when they were wrong the other fifty times.

Sounds great to shout about it after the water is spilled, but I'd rather just work on cleaning up the water rather than worrying about which of the hundred guys in the room didn't know it was going to fall over in the first place.

[I-5]

Well, we DID have a pandemics team that was assembled after the Ebola scare (and it was a scare, although luckily we avoided a pandemic in the US, and no one died who was infected on US soil), but someone decided we didn't need it anymore. I'm not saying having a pandemics team could have stopped the virus, but they definitely could have made a difference in the response.

[RiverDog]

Well, we DID have a pandemics team that was assembled after the Ebola scare (and it was a scare, although luckily we avoided a pandemic in the US, and no one died who was infected on US soil), but someone decided we didn't need it anymore. I'm not saying having a pandemics team could have stopped the virus, but they definitely could have made a difference in the response.

Actually Trump disbanding that team doesn't bother me near as much as some of the things he's said and done over the past month: Calling it a hoax, arguing with governors, disseminating false information, proposing completely unreasonable and uninformed policies not based on science, an so on. He's been brought along kicking and screaming, not out front and leading like a POTUS should be doing.

Having said that, for whatever reason whether it be that he's genuinely concerned about our health or that he's doing it for very selfish reasons in that he thinks that it will help him politically, his turn around has been very refreshing.

[Aseahawkfan]

Well, we DID have a pandemics team that was assembled after the Ebola scare (and it was a scare, although luckily we avoided a pandemic in the US, and no one died who was infected on US soil), but someone decided we didn't need it anymore. I'm not saying having a pandemics team could have stopped the virus, but they definitely could have made a difference in the response.

I keep hearing that one along with all the other stories the press puts out to keep the fight against Trump going. And hindsight is 20/20 as usual.

I ignore these clowns back and forth petty bickering. It's not helpful.

Trump seems to be letting the experts do the job now since I think even he realizes at this point it's gone beyond him. It's now in the hands of of the infectious disease experts and god or mother nature, which everyone you believe in. Viruses don't respond to political arguments or wishes, just data and medicine.

[RiverDog]

Trump seems to be letting the experts do the job now since I think even he realizes at this point it's gone beyond him. It's now in the hands of of the infectious disease experts and god or mother nature, which everyone you believe in. Viruses don't respond to political arguments or wishes, just data and medicine.

At least for the time being, Trump is letting the experts do their jobs. I'm not sure how content he's going to be to remain in the background. Like I said earlier, his narcissism gives him this insatiable desire to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

As a side note, one of my wife's high school friend's dad just tested positive for COVID-19. He has to be in his 90's and already has pneumonia. He's apparently delirious, very confused from the pain killing drugs. Sounds like he's destined to be a statistic.

Also, one of my friends is making a mask for me to wear on my twice weekly trips to the grocery store. I hope they don't think I'm trying to hold up the place.

[Aseahawkfan]

At least for the time being, Trump is letting the experts do their jobs. I'm not sure how content he's going to be to remain in the background. Like I said earlier, his narcissism gives him this insatiable desire to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

As a side note, one of my wife's high school friend's dad just tested positive for COVID-19. He has to be in his 90's and already has pneumonia. He's apparently delirious, very confused from the pain killing drugs. Sounds like he's destined to be a statistic.

Also, one of my friends is making a mask for me to wear on my twice weekly trips to the grocery store. I hope they don't think I'm trying to hold up the place.

I might order some masks for grocery trips too. Might as well get used to it. Work will hopefully provide them if they required soon.

[RiverDog]

I might order some masks for grocery trips too. Might as well get used to it. Work will hopefully provide them if they required soon.

Be careful ordering them. My wife tried and found that the reviews were almost all negative, false claims, etc. Also, the outside of them has to be sanitized if you're going to re-use them. Big pain in the butt.

[Aseahawkfan]

Be careful ordering them. My wife tried and found that the reviews were almost all negative, false claims, etc. Also, the outside of them has to be sanitized if you're going to re-use them. Big pain in the butt.

That's great. I don't need an N95 mask. The South Korean doctor said almost any mask better than none. Most South Koreans not wearing N95, but some other approved mask.

[RiverDog]

Be careful ordering them. My wife tried and found that the reviews were almost all negative, false claims, etc. Also, the outside of them has to be sanitized if you're going to re-use them. Big pain in the butt.

That's great. I don't need an N95 mask. The South Korean doctor said almost any mask better than none. Most South Koreans not wearing N95, but some other approved mask.

A lot of people are making their own.

Ironically, I was chatting with my back yard neighbor, who is a paramedic for the fire department, and he gave me two N95 masks, so I'm all set! The only problem is going to be cleaning the outside of them for re-use. It has to be done in such a manner that you don't inhale the sanitizer.

[I-5]

Just thought I'd chime in to break you two up. Ha.

Here in Vancouver, a lot of people (including myself) have slowly come around to the idea of wearing a mask the way the Japanese think of it. It's not so much only to protect yourself - which is what the N95 does best for healthcare workers - but that the idea of everyone wearing a mask is to protect the community, by protecting others from yourself, since we really don't know who has it or not. I myself feel fine, but it's very possible we can all be carriers without knowing it (which we all saw with the Skagit Valley Choir). Not everyone is wearing a mask when I go outside, but I'd say most people are. It's unconscionable that the WHO is still advocating for no masks. If they're concerned people are hoarding N95's, they could simply say 'wear ANY mask', because they should know that in those countries in Asia where the virus has been held in better check, they hand out free masks to every citizen, which coupled with rigorous testing and tracking, is making a huge difference. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can test, track, and wear masks.

[RiverDog]

Just thought I'd chime in to break you two up. Ha.

Here in Vancouver, a lot of people (including myself) have slowly come around to the idea of wearing a mask the way the Japanese think of it. It's not so much only to protect yourself - which is what the N95 does best for healthcare workers - but that the idea of everyone wearing a mask is to protect the community, by protecting others from yourself, since we really don't know who has it or not. I myself feel fine, but it's very possible we can all be carriers without knowing it (which we all saw with the Skagit Valley Choir). Not everyone is wearing a mask when I go outside, but I'd say most people are. It's unconscionable that the WHO is still advocating for no masks. If they're concerned people are hoarding N95's, they could simply say 'wear ANY mask', because they should know that in those countries in Asia where the virus has been held in better check, they hand out free masks to every citizen, which coupled with rigorous testing and tracking, is making a huge difference. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can test, track, and wear masks.

Yea, that's the rationale. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to wear mine when I go to the store and let my wife sanitize it so we can reuse it. But if everyone follows the guidelines and stays 6'+ apart, there's not a very high likelihood of infecting one another, at least not by casually passing by as happens in a grocery store. If you are within close proximity of others for a long period of time, say on an airline flight or, as in the tragic case in Mt. Vernon, a 2 hour long choir practice, then it would make a lot more sense to wear one.

Regardless of any added effectiveness in preventing the spread of this disease, I do think that large numbers of people wearing a mask sends a signal to others and utilizes peer pressure to get people to take this thing seriously. I get tired of debating ignorant people on my FB page that continue to compare this with the flu. Too many people aren't getting the message. If more people started wearing masks, perhaps they wouldn't be laughing at them as they are now and instead get with the program.

And BTW, the WHO's not advocating masks is just one example of an unconscionable and inadequate position that they have taken. Their social distancing recommendations are just one meter.

[c_hawkbob]

Just thought I'd chime in to break you two up. Ha.

Here in Vancouver, a lot of people (including myself) have slowly come around to the idea of wearing a mask the way the Japanese think of it. It's not so much only to protect yourself - which is what the N95 does best for healthcare workers - but that the idea of everyone wearing a mask is to protect the community, by protecting others from yourself, since we really don't know who has it or not...

Interesting, after a facetime Dr's appointment the other day I was left in the same frame of mind and wrote this on my FB page:

If you're not symptomatic you don't need an N95 mask, at least not while there is such a shortage of PPE for our healthcare professionals and first responders. For the purposes of preventing the transfer of contaminates from you to others or from others to you while you visit the grocery store or go to work a homemade mask or even a bandanna will make a world of difference. Please leave (or better yet help supply) n95s to the front line workers that need them so badly.

I for one am glad our local leaders and health care professionals (keeping in mind that local for me is Kentucky) are more proactive than the WHO.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think I might pick up a box of some kind of disposable mask for my grocery visits. Not the N95, but something.

[RiverDog]

I think I might pick up a box of some kind of disposable mask for my grocery visits. Not the N95, but something.

My wife is going ape chit over masks now. Even though we have two new N95 masks and should be able to re-use them, she has me stopping by a friend's house to pick up a couple of home made ones. She's been studying how to clean and sanitize disposable masks, how best to store them, etc.

Just some random news observations. I see where the DNC has moved their convention back to mid August, after the R's have theirs. The President of the Philippines has told police to kill any citizen that is not obeying social distancing requirements. Apparently they have had to assign a security detail to protect Dr. Fauci.

[Aseahawkfan]

The "President" of the Philippines is an insane dictator disguised as a Democratically elected leader.

[RiverDog]

The "President" of the Philippines is an insane dictator disguised as a Democratically elected leader.

Agreed. It is a bit of an oxymoronish term for him, isn't it?

[Aseahawkfan]

Agreed. It is a bit of an oxymoronish term for him, isn't it?

Yeah. He makes Trump look like a saint. That's why I think Americans are spoiled when they see Trump as some kind of dictator. He's a narcissistic jerk, not a violent crazy like Kim, Duterte, and a long list of leaders in the rest of the world where real oppression occurs, not a name calling contest between various parties that is mostly playground games and dirty politics. Real oppression is violent, cruel, and those leaders won't hesitate to have their opponents or people killed for speaking against them. As much as I rail against the stupidity, I hope Americans remain the naive, outspoken, argumentative unique group they are than become the frightened, oppressed, no value for life leaders who consider their power more important than the lives and well-being of their people.

[Aseahawkfan]

You read the info on Iceland? Now they're estimating a possible 50% of people infected are asymptomatic carriers. That is nuts. Just wandering around spreading the virus and not even knowing they're sick.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/europe/iceland-testing-coronavirus-intl/index.html

[RiverDog]

You read the info on Iceland? Now they're estimating a possible 50% of people infected are asymptomatic carriers. That is nuts. Just wandering around spreading the virus and not even knowing they're sick.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/europe/iceland-testing-coronavirus-intl/index.html

Great article, thanks! It sure makes a case for social distancing, doesn't it? Next time I see someone on my Facebook page trying to compare this to the flu, I'll hit him with those findings. Most people that get the flu show symptoms 1-4 days after infection. Not sure how many are asymptomatic, but I doubt that it's anywhere near 50%.

I wrote an email to the tour director in Iceland a couple days ago regarding rescheduling our tour that is currently slated for June 9th-20th. I'm thinking of moving it back into July or August but won't make a decision for another 4 or 5 weeks. Here's part of her response. Part of it dove tails with the article you linked:

The peak of the Covid 19 pandemic will happen here around mid-April. Due to our small population it is easy for the government to track and control the situation. Most people work from home and kids have limited school, 2-3 times a week, so luckily it will soon be over here in Iceland.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sometimes it's nice to be from a small country.

[RiverDog]

Sometimes it's nice to be from a small country.

Yea, I'm working to convince my wife that this is about as safe as a country one can visit relative to the virus. The biggest risk are the airline flights.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yea, I'm working to convince my wife that this is about as safe as a country one can visit relative to the virus. The biggest risk are the airline flights.

Just make sure you can get back, that's the key.

[RiverDog]

Just make sure you can get back, that's the key.

Last month when Trump announced his banning of travel to/from Europe, it included Iceland they are in Europe’s Schengen Area, but Iceland complained, arguing that they are distinctly unique due to their geography, population density, and the fact that most of their visits come from the US or Canada, not Europe. I felt they had a damn good case. If anything, it should be the other way around, Iceland should be banning travel with us.

[Aseahawkfan]

Last month when Trump announced his banning of travel to/from Europe, it included Iceland they are in Europe’s Schengen Area, but Iceland complained, arguing that they are distinctly unique due to their geography, population density, and the fact that most of their visits come from the US or Canada, not Europe. I felt they had a damn good case. If anything, it should be the other way around, Iceland should be banning travel with us.

For sure. Everyone should be banning travel with us. We are heavily infected. Though we may never find out, I think we've been infected since December or early January. It's just been spreading and spreading and spreading and is now blowing up.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/colorado-hospital-calling-donors-experimental-promising-coronavirus-treatment/story?id=69951910

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/regeneron-aims-to-have-coronavirus-drug-ready-for-testing-early-summer.html

Hopefully this gets started sooner rather than later. I think we have a ton of people with antibodies to fight this, more than we know.

[RiverDog]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/colorado-hospital-calling-donors-experimental-promising-coronavirus-treatment/story?id=69951910

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/regeneron-aims-to-have-coronavirus-drug-ready-for-testing-early-summer.html

Hopefully this gets started sooner rather than later. I think we have a ton of people with antibodies to fight this, more than we know.

Thanks for the links. There's a number of potential vaccines out there, and with about the same timeline: Clinical trials this fall, FDA approval and distributable vaccine by January 2021. That would be a few months ahead of the 12-18 month timeline given to us from the time a new virus appears before a distributable vaccine is available.

My wife has been using hydroxychloroquine to treat her rheumatoid arthritis (she has both MS and RA), and the first day when she heard that they were using it as a potential treatment for COVID, she decided to re-order even though she still had a couple months left, certain that there'd be a run on it. Now even Trump is talking about taking it, and sure enough, there's already shortages. FYI my wife is on 11 prescription drugs.

[Aseahawkfan]

Thanks for the links. There's a number of potential vaccines out there, and with about the same timeline: Clinical trials this fall, FDA approval and distributable vaccine by January 2021. That would be a few months ahead of the 12-18 month timeline given to us from the time a new virus appears before a distributable vaccine is available.

My wife has been using hydroxychloroquine to treat her rheumatoid arthritis (she has both MS and RA), and the first day when she heard that they were using it as a potential treatment for COVID, she decided to re-order even though she still had a couple months left, certain that there'd be a run on it. Now even Trump is talking about taking it, and sure enough, there's already shortages. FYI my wife is on 11 prescription drugs.

The links are not to a vaccine. They are to the use of antibodies taken from patients that recovered to be used to infuse people with antibodies to fight off the virus. This is a much quicker process as antibodies have not proven to have a negative effect when injected into another human like a vaccine. Blood and plasma transfusion is a very common procedure.

Hopefully those drugs are helping protect her from COVID. I heard there is some promise in prevention of COVID19, but not so much if you already have it and are critical.

[RiverDog]

The links are not to a vaccine.

From the bullet point in your 2nd link:

Regeneron has moved forward its time frame for having doses of a potential coronavirus vaccine and treatment ready for human testing.

[Aseahawkfan]

From the bullet point in your 2nd link:

Regeneron has moved forward its time frame for having doses of a potential coronavirus vaccine and treatment ready for human testing.

It may act like a vaccine, but it is not the usual vaccine and might be produced much faster. From what I can understand, the journalist may have gotten it wrong because it is an experimental drug treatment.

The approach involves creating antibodies to the virus that could be used to treat the disease and to prevent it, Regeneron said in a statement Tuesday.

"So what we're doing is we're taking the plasma from the people that are just recovered from coronavirus but no longer have the virus, and then transfusing it into people who currently have the virus, but haven't made enough antibodies to defeat the illness yet, in hopes that will help them to kind of get over the hump and start getting better."


This is a summary of what they are trying that was used for an Ebola outbreak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REGN-EB3

[RiverDog]

They're going to need a safe, effective, and distributable vaccine before we can put this crisis completely to bed. I'm sure they can advance the normal process some, but there are certain steps that the FDA isn't going to allow a manufacturer to skip or compromise in their validation process. It takes time to determine the right dosage and to gain confidence that it's safe and effective. This thing is going to be with us the rest of the year.

Having said that, if we can just get past these next few months, we'll have a reliable testing method where we can use to track the virus as it progresses during the summer and into the fall, and we'll have more effective treatments for those that do get ill. We should know by then if a recovered person has built up enough immunity to stave off another infection. We'll have a lot more knowledge about this virus than we did back in January and February when cases first started to pop up. We'll be a lot more prepared for the 2nd wave of infections than we were for the first. We will be proactive rather than reactive. Hopefully we won't have to shut down the entire country if it pops up again.

[Aseahawkfan]

They're going to need a safe, effective, and distributable vaccine before we can put this crisis completely to bed. I'm sure they can advance the normal process some, but there are certain steps that the FDA isn't going to allow a manufacturer to skip or compromise in their validation process. It takes time to determine the right dosage and to gain confidence that it's safe and effective. This thing is going to be with us the rest of the year.

Having said that, if we can just get past these next few months, we'll have a reliable testing method where we can use to track the virus as it progresses during the summer and into the fall, and we'll have more effective treatments for those that do get ill. We should know by then if a recovered person has built up enough immunity to stave off another infection. We'll have a lot more knowledge about this virus than we did back in January and February when cases first started to pop up. We'll be a lot more prepared for the 2nd wave of infections than we were for the first. We will be proactive rather than reactive. Hopefully we won't have to shut down the entire country if it pops up again.

They put the 1918 flu epidemic to bed within two years without a vaccine, though I'm not sure they ever took measures as strong as we are now. I think the Post-World 1 economy was very good as it was called The Roaring Twenties. The first flu vaccine wasn't developed until 1938. If they could put this to bed back then, then we certainly can now. Though it would be nice to do that sooner than a year.

[RiverDog]

They put the 1918 flu epidemic to bed within two years without a vaccine, though I'm not sure they ever took measures as strong as we are now. I think the Post-World 1 economy was very good as it was called The Roaring Twenties. The first flu vaccine wasn't developed until 1938. If they could put this to bed back then, then we certainly can now. Though it would be nice to do that sooner than a year.

I'm not sure how comparable the 1918 flu is to the coronavirus. As you know, what makes the coronavirus different from other flu viruses is how communicable it is with the delayed and very mild symptoms allowing an infected person come in contact with many more people. Also, the nation wasn't nearly as densely populated. We have over three times the population now than we did back then, and we weren't nearly as mobile back then.

I'm relatively sure that we'll be able to "put to bed" COVID-19 within 2 years. They seem to have a number of vaccines in the works so if one doesn't work, another one probably will. Same goes for treatments.

But I do wonder whether or not we're going to have a football season and if we do, how it's going to look. Trump had a meeting with all the major league sports commissioners and said that he wanted the NFL to start their season as scheduled, but the governor of CA replied immediately and said that they would not be allowed to have fans in the stadiums in his state.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not sure how comparable the 1918 flu is to the coronavirus. As you know, what makes the coronavirus different from other flu viruses is how communicable it is with the delayed and very mild symptoms allowing an infected person come in contact with many more people. Also, the nation wasn't nearly as densely populated. We have over three times the population now than we did back then, and we weren't nearly as mobile back then.

That flu was far worse than the corona virus during a far worse time, yet they didn't lose their minds as the government is now. Now we have governor's talking about even one death prevented is worth shutting the economy down and other such nonsense that sounds great in a soundbyte, but is actually a terrible decision countered by all the people that will die from poverty or be standing in food lines or seeking drugs or alcohol living homeless with their lives destroyed. We have to as humans accept a certain level of death to get back to living. We can't live in a state of not dying, but not living. We better start ramping back up by June or these leaders won't have much of a country to lead.

I'm relatively sure that we'll be able to "put to bed" COVID-19 within 2 years. They seem to have a number of vaccines in the works so if one doesn't work, another one probably will. Same goes for treatments.

But I do wonder whether or not we're going to have a football season and if we do, how it's going to look. Trump had a meeting with all the major league sports commissioners and said that he wanted the NFL to start their season as scheduled, but the governor of CA replied immediately and said that they would not be allowed to have fans in the stadiums in his state.

The league needs to spend money on testing. They should be able to at least get going on TV. Wrestling and MMA are going to test the waters and see how it goes. If they go well, then the NFL and other leagues should follow suit. Plenty of people would watch on TV, though I imagine the teams might seem a bit lacking in energy without the fans to pump them. Can you imagine what that would be like as a player? No sound but your teammates. A quiet field. Pure football, basketball, and baseball in an empty stadium. I would find it interesting to watch sports without the fan advantage in any stadium.

[Hawktawk]

That flu was far worse than the corona virus during a far worse time, yet they didn't lose their minds as the government is now. Now we have governor's talking about even one death prevented is worth shutting the economy down and other such nonsense that sounds great in a soundbyte, but is actually a terrible decision countered by all the people that will die from poverty or be standing in food lines or seeking drugs or alcohol living homeless with their lives destroyed. We have to as humans accept a certain level of death to get back to living. We can't live in a state of not dying, but not living. We better start ramping back up by June or these leaders won't have much of a country to lead.

I hear what you are saying but I think with something like this its a false choice to say we just live with some deaths to keep the economy humming. You can't have a functioning economy with a complete collapse of the medical system. Its strained to the limit with states having distanced, some for a month plus. 20% of cases are healthcare workers with many young healthy doctors and first responders getting violently ill and dying. One hospital in NY has a full third of its staff in quarantine. Over 10% of the NYPD is sick and some have died. They are maybe a day or 2 from running out of ventilators a couple of places at which point you've got bodies stacking up like cordwood, dying people in the hallway, in some countries there are dead bodies in the streets already. We will have the most deaths in the world in less than a week. And again, this is sheltering. There's good news in our state ,Oregon, california, and even Italy as well as NY where they are seeing a flattening of the curve but people are still dying by the hundreds or thousands and will do so for weeks as this plateaus, hopefully over the next month.

The problem is all these Trumptards not following the F@King directions, red state governors including Florida refusing to shut down and even opening beaches for spring break. His beach bars were open just a weekend ago My fear and that of many experts is that this will just come wave after wave until its controlled by medication.Dr Fauci said he believes it will likely become seasonal. Clearly testing has to happen for everyone to get this back to some semblance of normal or none of what's been done already will have helped anything except crater the economy.China is seeing some new infections now from people RETURNING FROM THE USA.

The unbridled greed and sense of security in our society among our ultra wealthy elite running the country did us in Im afraid, killed the goose that laid the golden egg. Our politicians made purely political calculations from Trump on down which caused the many delays that necessarily forced long periods of sheltering and separation which cratered our economy.Worrying for about 2 weeks about the financial impact of shutting down china was the window in which the first confirmed case came in.And as I know you're aware chinese from some parts of the country were still arriving in the US at about 15K PER DAY with this supposed shutdown Trump likes to brag about.

As I said in my soul of america post, how many lives are worth 10K on the Dow? Spanish flu killed 40 to 60 million worldwide and in america. Cities that prevented large gatherings did in some cases 75% better. And the second year of the spanish flu was far more deadly. Its all we could do is shelter from this . If we had a competent leader we would be having a different discussion I think. As it is we will deal with this a long time.

Morally here's how I see It. I understand a balance but having done nothing we would be worse off now, far more sick and infected and the economy and market might have wound up even worse.

In that instance I believe almost everyone would wind up having a relative or friend who dies. Don't know about you but I would rather see our economy shrink for a while then bury my wife, one of my kids or one of my friends. Id plant a garden, shoot game to eat and drink from a river before I'd do that.

[Aseahawkfan]

I hear what you are saying but I think with something like this its a false choice to say we just live with some deaths to keep the economy humming. You can't have a functioning economy with a complete collapse of the medical system. Its strained to the limit with states having distanced, some for a month plus. 20% of cases are healthcare workers with many young healthy doctors and first responders getting violently ill and dying. One hospital in NY has a full third of its staff in quarantine. Over 10% of the NYPD is sick and some have died. They are maybe a day or 2 from running out of ventilators a couple of places at which point you've got bodies stacking up like cordwood, dying people in the hallway, in some countries there are dead bodies in the streets already. We will have the most deaths in the world in less than a week. And again, this is sheltering. There's good news in our state ,Oregon, california, and even Italy as well as NY where they are seeing a flattening of the curve but people are still dying by the hundreds or thousands and will do so for weeks as this plateaus, hopefully over the next month.

The problem is all these Trumptards not following the F@King directions, red state governors including Florida refusing to shut down and even opening beaches for spring break. His beach bars were open just a weekend ago My fear and that of many experts is that this will just come wave after wave until its controlled by medication.Dr Fauci said he believes it will likely become seasonal. Clearly testing has to happen for everyone to get this back to some semblance of normal or none of what's been done already will have helped anything except crater the economy.China is seeing some new infections now from people RETURNING FROM THE USA.

The unbridled greed and sense of security in our society among our ultra wealthy elite running the country did us in Im afraid, killed the goose that laid the golden egg. Our politicians made purely political calculations from Trump on down which caused the many delays that necessarily forced long periods of sheltering and separation which cratered our economy.Worrying for about 2 weeks about the financial impact of shutting down china was the window in which the first confirmed case came in.And as I know you're aware chinese from some parts of the country were still arriving in the US at about 15K PER DAY with this supposed shutdown Trump likes to brag about.

As I said in my soul of america post, how many lives are worth 10K on the Dow? Spanish flu killed 40 to 60 million worldwide and in america. Cities that prevented large gatherings did in some cases 75% better. And the second year of the spanish flu was far more deadly. Its all we could do is shelter from this . If we had a competent leader we would be having a different discussion I think. As it is we will deal with this a long time.

Morally here's how I see It. I understand a balance but having done nothing we would be worse off now, far more sick and infected and the economy and market might have wound up even worse.

In that instance I believe almost everyone would wind up having a relative or friend who dies. Don't know about you but I would rather see our economy shrink for a while then bury my wife, one of my kids or one of my friends. Id plant a garden, shoot game to eat and drink from a river before I'd do that.

We are way past 10k on the Dow. We're talking lost homes, lost jobs, lost cars, not able to take care of your kids even if you live, retirement money destroyed for old folks that may live ten more years in poverty watching their kids live in poverty, lost businesses, not able to support themselves leading to depression, drug abuse, and other such problems. Educations destroyed. Lives destroyed.

That's why I'm thinking we can last until June like this, but much longer and we risk worse economic damage than the deaths. This is a bad pandemic, but it's not he Spanish Flu and we're not in 1918. We should be able to get things functional again as a modern economy. That is the balance these governors should be taking. I hope they are.

I know the media is feeding us bits and pieces. And none of these politicians can give us many dates while this thing is raging. But behind the scenes they have to be working on ways to get this thing going again because they have to have people screaming at them to do so. There are a lot more prominent people than us that pay the bills as it goes screaming to get this thing going again. The government also makes very little money to give in handouts when no economic activity is occurring and they have to want to get it going as soon as possible as well.

I'm not in your camp. I would lose a relative or loved one before I'd watch the modern world destroyed. I'd hate to see my relatives standing in food lines, living like a 3rd world country, all because they were told this economic destruction saved .5% more lives while destroying the lives of 20%. I know how third world nations live and the death toll of a nation living with people shooting game to live as a requirement is far greater than a modern nation with virus deaths that are currently an estimate. Maybe we lose 2 million from the corona virus in a worst case scenario, but if we destroy the nation maybe we double the normal national death total of 2.3 million to 4.6 million from crime, poor health care, suicides, and all the deaths from a 3rd world nation economy along with a terrible standard of living and we gained nothing and lost more. Short-term thinking that leads to long-term losses rather than short-term losses that lead to long-term gains.

It's the same decisions our ancestors had to make during pandemics, famines, exploring new parts of the world, making it to space, advancing medicine, air travel, creating cars, fighting wars, and making the world. If modern people can't make the same hard decisions involving life and death, then we're done as a species.

[Hawktawk]

We can see what were losing. As I say its a false choice. You can't have a functioning economy with people dropping like flies and hospitals shut down, overrun. Then look at the spread and contagion, the way this thing affects people different. There are 7 sick tigers in NYC and one was tested and came back positive. Imagine if it spreads to house cats? Clearly the more of this in the air the more contagious and deadly.

You have no idea if this is better or worse than the spanish flu.Nobody does but it scares the s*** out of people who know best. The Spanish flu was treated very differently by primitive medical procedures and many places never distanced. And again year 2s mutation was far deadlier. It would be just as bad eventually for the economy if we just tried to ignore it. Do you truly believe this could kill 2.5 million americans in a year or so and it would be business as usual? The only way to prevent a pandemic is stopping it in its tracks.

If Obama who I hated was still president we might not have this in America, certainly not nearly to the level we have this here based on his response to Ebola.We led the world in that fight from the day it broke, did so well obama didn't really get credit. Actually he was assailed by republicans for missing ONE person coming in infected and voters handed the congress to republicans a year later.

Trump wrecked his only calling card and the entire nation by being a climate denying science denying intelligence community denier in a bitter on twitter trade war with the host country , 5 chiefs of staff in 3 years , acting this and that in various department who thought he could bluster his way through this. He was briefed on Jan 3rd and here we are a complete cluster in april. Now Jarred is onboard and I feel so reassured

Now we have a guy who said GW "didn't keep us safe" because he couldn't stop 911 is telling us 100K to 250 K deaths from something he called a democratic hoax, told HSS secretary Alex Azar he was being an alarmist in Jan would be doing a "great job"!!!!.Its way too little too late now and he's flailing around trying to blame others for his worst failing of his life. Blame impeachment, blame Obama, blame the CDC, blame the manufacturers, blame the governors but as for Trump? "I take no responsibility" He never made a truer statement.

We folks with TDS look a lot more sane these days. Too bad the entire world is screwed as a result. Asea as with everything the last 4 years with this guy I hope to be wrong. He's got some really smart people in his financial positions. But I'm not sure the world will ever be the same.

As you say cars, houses,boats, 3 TVs, mortgaged up the ass. This economy was on the backs of consumers strapped with record debt, propped up by record government debt, financial tricks to push the market, huge tax cuts for business. Our nation is bankrupt printing funny money. I'm sure it wasn't like that during the swine flu.I put up a post a few months ago discussing the economic house of cards when were building. Boy howdy.What about the money Asea?

I hope you're right and it's back to business as usual soon. I just fear things I've not seen in my life may be ahead.

[Aseahawkfan]

We can see what were losing. As I say its a false choice. You can't have a functioning economy with people dropping like flies and hospitals shut down, overrun. Then look at the spread and contagion, the way this thing affects people different. There are 7 sick tigers in NYC and one was tested and came back positive. Imagine if it spreads to house cats? Clearly the more of this in the air the more contagious and deadly.

You have no idea if this is better or worse than the spanish flu.Nobody does but it scares the s*** out of people who know best. The Spanish flu was treated very differently by primitive medical procedures and many places never distanced. And again year 2s mutation was far deadlier. It would be just as bad eventually for the economy if we just tried to ignore it. Do you truly believe this could kill 2.5 million americans in a year or so and it would be business as usual? The only way to prevent a pandemic is stopping it in its tracks.

I am sure it won't be as bad as The Spanish Flu that killed 17 to 25 million people and I haven't heard that projection a worst case scenario. I will continue to believe that until I see reason to do otherwise. We're also not seeing that play out as the Spanish Flu did that in a relatively short amount of time after a World War.

If Obama who I hated was still president we might not have this in America, certainly not nearly to the level we have this here based on his response to Ebola.We led the world in that fight from the day it broke, did so well obama didn't really get credit. Actually he was assailed by republicans for missing ONE person coming in infected and voters handed the congress to republicans a year later.

Trump wrecked his only calling card and the entire nation by being a climate denying science denying intelligence community denier in a bitter on twitter trade war with the host country , 5 chiefs of staff in 3 years , acting this and that in various department who thought he could bluster his way through this. He was briefed on Jan 3rd and here we are a complete cluster in april. Now Jarred is onboard and I feel so reassured

I'm not going to further fuel your Trump hate. It's not the time. Every nation in the world is dealing with COVID 19 cases. We have zero proof that we would have been shielded any better from this with a different president. We are not as organized or efficient as Germany or South Korea, but hopefully better than Italy or Spain. At least that is my hope at this point. The president alone does not decide our fate, even though he gets undue blame and credit depending on the times. I don't much look at him. I'm looking at the data at this point. This is unfolding about as expected with our more population dense areas getting hit harder and our more spread out, flatter places less so. Let's just hope that continues. We have a lot of land even though we have a lot of people and we can spread out pretty well. It's too bad New York and New Jersey are ant farms of people.

As you say cars, houses,boats, 3 TVs, mortgaged up the ass. This economy was on the backs of consumers strapped with record debt, propped up by record government debt, financial tricks to push the market, huge tax cuts for business. Our nation is bankrupt printing funny money. I'm sure it wasn't like that during the swine flu.I put up a post a few months ago discussing the economic house of cards when were building. Boy howdy.What about the money Asea?

I hope you're right and it's back to business as usual soon. I just fear things I've not seen in my life may be ahead.

I'm hoping June we have some means in place to go back. We can do better than this. We have some very smart people working on this. Our country runs with or without a president. We've survived worse.

I hope businesses are smart enough to let people delay payments and such and recover together. It doesn't do much to bleed consumers and then try to further bleed them to make up for the losses. If I were in charge, I would impose a big economic delay game. After this things lifts, I would start writing some of the money off the books. Just gone, poof to reduce the money supply. This is a game of numbers. If we can manipulate the numbers to lessen the effect and write off two months of economic activity as though it did not even exist, then we can pull out of this.

And at the moment you are right we don't have to make a choice between death and economy. The deaths are coming whether we want it or not. I do figure we have enough juice in place to last a few months with a shutdown country. Then at that point we need to see if we can get safeguards in place to get back to business, slowly, methodically, and with managing the economic damage enough that people don't lose everything. It sounds like many of the big banks are on board because they know one quarter of extremely bad earnings with a quick return to normalcy is better than trying to squeeze dry rocks for juice hoping to keep an earning quarter decent. We just gotta hope we hit that June 30 mark for ramp up. The next few weeks will be telling.

Let's hope all these sharp entrepreneurs, scientists, and politicians can put their heads together to get this thing ramping back up within that two months. Sacrificing some entertainment industries should be ok, but the overall economy will need to learn to operate with a virus in circulation.

[RiverDog]

We are way past 10k on the Dow.

No, we're not. On Feb. The DJIA stood at 29,413 on Feb. 13th, it's highest of the year. Before trading today, the Dow stands at 21,052. It's bottom was 18,591 on March 23rd.

We're talking lost homes, lost jobs, lost cars, not able to take care of your kids even if you live, retirement money destroyed for old folks that may live ten more years in poverty watching their kids live in poverty, lost businesses, not able to support themselves leading to depression, drug abuse, and other such problems. Educations destroyed. Lives destroyed.

I haven't heard of anyone losing their homes or cars yet. We've only been in this for a month. People aren't even tardy on their mortgage or rent payments yet. Not saying that it won't happen, just that we're not there yet. You're way over dramatizing the effects of this on the economy, yet you're the one that says the media and govt is over reacting, going ape chit bananas over this.

But I will say that there's going to be some serious unemployment and business decline even if we were to open back up today. I read where 20% of all restaurants will close permanently due to this, and that's going to put a lot of people out looking for work. But they'll survive.

I'm retired, and I'm doing just fine. I've lost about 13% of value in my IRA's and our income is still stable. According to my financial advisor, whom I just messaged yesterday, his average non retired, aggressive investor client has lost about 20%. They'll regain some of that if we're back to normal by the fall.

That's why I'm thinking we can last until June like this, but much longer and we risk worse economic damage than the deaths. This is a bad pandemic, but it's not he Spanish Flu and we're not in 1918. We should be able to get things functional again as a modern economy. That is the balance these governors should be taking. I hope they are.

Just looking at the curve, I think Memorial Day looks like a reasonable time frame for starting the economy back up. We need to keep an eye on western Europe, in particular Italy, and see when they start to come out of it. We should be a couple weeks behind them. But I'm with Hawktalk on this one. As Dr. Fauci said, the virus sets the timetable.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... c-response

Trump and his sheeple cannot get away from his horrendous early failures on this, nor his dismissive comments to this day.History will not be kind.

It's not because of my Trump hate. Its because he behaves like this I and so many others hate him.We've always known he was totally unfit. It's clear to me now why my skin crawled when he was halfway down the escalator. Now the economy in the toilet, my friends and relatives are damaging their businesses, people in the medical community including my beautiful wife are re using masks in Covid hotspot Grant Co after being told for MONTHS not to wear masks if nobody had symptoms.They are 20% of cases. I saw masks on everyone in China months ago. They had to lie cause there are no masks.


Trump was briefed Jan 3rd. Trump orders ventilators to be made by GM in mid March and masks by 3M among others months after we knew this was coming ashore

The peak will (hopefully)pass without any of them arriving in late april or early may at best . He says he won't wear a mask "doesn't see it for him, its optional derrrr" So his trumpanzees will ignore it, walk around without one and get the crap going again screwing us all who have made these sacrifices. I'm having a mask made and I absolutely will not go into any confined of populated space without it for the foreseeable future.

Now my medical professional wife who cant get tested without symptoms comes home to her 60 year old in so so shape with mild COPD husband.and if she has symptoms tests in Grant Co are taking a week to process in April.She has to go to work. I have to come home. This hits home.

No I dont give the orange baboon much credit here guys, sorry.I want him to go to NYC and pull a shift without a mask and take Jarred with him.

No president could possibly have Fd this up worse.