So Where Do We Go From Here?

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump haters gonna hate and exaggerate. Most world leaders reacted slowly to this, not just Trump, So not sure how you can blame the guy for what it seemed was happening in most places. The hindsight is 20/20 crowd always comes out when the blood is in the water. That's to be expected as that's part of the political game. Suddenly the people who sounded the big alarm first proved to be right and we're all why didn't you listen to that guy after the fact when a bunch of other guys were obviously less concerned. Comparing these outbreaks to the H1N1 flu or the Ebola outbreak response is pretty ridiculous because neither disease hit the entire world like this where we saw this massive worldwide shutdowns. I don't recall Europe having anything like this during H1N1. This two week advance notice rubbish has been clearly disproven as we were infected at the same time if not before Europe. We have as much if not more contact with China than anywhere else in the world not in Asia. So that whole timeline people are claiming is provably false.

That being said what I am finding irritating about Trump is this state first plan when The Fed and States should be working equally to get this done. His lack of wearing a mask as well as Pence setting a bad example. I find the lack of a national, coordinated plan that moves quickly and effectively to be unbelievable given the resources available to us in America. Since Trump does not run things alone, he's either communicating very poorly what is being done or is not listening to what needs to be done. Either way, it's a piss poor way to get things done. He's arguing with his governors and arguing with the press because he can't control his petty, combative attitude during a national pandemic. He's a very irritating, unwelcome, ineffective communicator and coordinator during this global pandemic who is not effectively using our technology resources and capabilities to maximum effect.

I'm sorry, I don't agree that it is because he is Republican. I think a Republican like George Bush Jr. would be listening to his science people and doing a far better job than Trump. I think both Reagan and Bush Sr. would be very focused on martialing our resources to get this done. But low tech, befuddled Trump seems like he doesn't even know what needs to be done and words like "contact tracing" and "enough testing" aren't registering with him.

[Aseahawkfan]

I doubt you'll see too much of a run on fresh fruits and vegetables. With the exception of tree fruits like apples and cherries, they can't be hoarded like meat and poultry can as unless you process them, they can't be preserved beyond a few weeks so you can't buy more than what you can eat in that amount of time. Most fruit and vegetables found on our shelves in the winter, save a few that are produced in greenhouses, are grown in Mexico and Central/South America, and so far, those areas haven't been hit by the virus, either due to the hot and humid climate or reporting issues. As far as potatoes go, fresh potatoes, onions, and other root vegetables have a longer shelf life, but you have to keep them cool, and this time of year, they'll sprout unless you keep them in your fridge. Storing them under the sink or in the garage won't work in the summer.

No, but you might see a run on potatoes, rice, and beans. Vegetables are not high quality sources of protein. The best vegetable sources of proteins are beans and peas with quinoa (too expensive for most people) and pasta being decent.

Back to meat and poultry. I've read where we still have a quite large supply of those products but they're in frozen warehouses. Sometimes panic buying will cause stores to temporarily run out as the transportation pipeline is timed to match demand.

Tyson is known for their frozen food, so not sure that is true. I would have to see. I know they sell a lot of frozen chicken foods.

I've worked in the vegetable processing industry for 40 years and worked with many friends and former employees that have worked at a nearby meat packing plant that I've referenced. Meat and poultry processing are a lot different in that they employ 2-3 times the numbers we do and work in much more confined spaces closer to other workers. My former employer reports that they've been able to keep operating but have had to shut some plants down occasionally when they've had an employee test positive. One of my friends from work is under quarantine at this time. It's a challenge for them to operate, but they're doing it. The meat packing plant, on the other hand, has had 126 positive tests and counting. They've shut down and vowed to test every one of their 1400 employees.

If Trump wants to keep them open, he better step the testing support up. I wonder if the Idgit understands that is why we need more testing.

Canned, packaged, frozen, and other processed foods have much higher inventories and can absorb the added demand, at least for a period of time. We may see shortages of certain types of food in certain locations, but we're not going to go hungry. Hoarders are a bigger threat. They may have to go to a rationing system like they did during WW2, but we're not going to starve.

I hope we don't starve. I don't want everything shutting down as a knee jerk reaction every time we get an outbreak. From what I understand and as you've stated, food processing is very labor intensive. And we do use a lot of immigrant labor. Trump. Trump better get some money support going to keep the food industry going including testing support. This guy is irritating the hell out of me. How much of our support stimulus and testing is going to food and healthcare? The Lakers are taking a loan? What is that?

A lot depends on the employees at these facilities. Their unions are dead set against it. If they refuse to go back in, I have a hard time seeing the courts siding with the POTUS. It's going to be up to him to show that there's a need, and at least at this point, we're not there yet. There is a precedent he would have to overcome. Harry Truman lost a 6-3 decision in SCOTUS when he tried to take over steel mills during the Korean War under the very same DPA.

Let's be honest here. Korean War was a unique situation. America was starting to sour to endless war.

I find it ironic that the POTUS considers these workers so essential that he's using the DPA to order them back to work. Most of these workers are low paid, entry level immigrants and minorities. If you read the article I liked, there are 11 different languages spoken in that one plant. Some may be undocumented. Agricultural work is even more heavily laden with immigrants and have a higher percentage of illegals amongst the workforce. If we do have a genuine food shortage, the plight of those workers and how they are treated will come to light, and it's not going to favor the POTUS as he's spent the past 4 years demonizing them. He's opening up a can of worms that Biden can exploit in the fall.

Yeah. pretty stupid. Just more of the hypocrisy that permeates our society in regards to immigrants. Great to have when you need them, easy targets to attack to get some easy votes from the racist, dumb group of Americans that don't bother to spend much time looking into things.

[RiverDog]

No, but you might see a run on potatoes, rice, and beans. Vegetables are not high quality sources of protein. The best vegetable sources of proteins are beans and peas with quinoa (too expensive for most people) and pasta being decent.

Maybe. If panic buying starts to threaten the nation's food supply, they might have to start instituting rationing. Some store are already limiting the purchases of some products. But I doubt that the situation gets that serious.

Back to meat and poultry. I've read where we still have a quite large supply of those products but they're in frozen warehouses. Sometimes panic buying will cause stores to temporarily run out as the transportation pipeline is timed to match demand.

Tyson is known for their frozen food, so not sure that is true. I would have to see. I know they sell a lot of frozen chicken foods.

Frozen meat and poultry isn't a problem, at least not yet. They have sufficient supplies in frozen warehouses. The problem is fresh meats. The pipeline for fresh meat is pretty delicately balanced, and the link you shared showed the effects of a relatively small bottleneck in the pipeline. With such a short shelf life, it has to be finely tuned to match a predictable demand. The same is true with dairy products like fresh milk and eggs, fresh vegetables, etc. Disrupt the supply chain and you get almost immediate shortages. Remember last year when romaine lettuce that had to be pulled off the shelves due to E. coli? That was due to an outbreak in just one growing region, yet you couldn't get a Caesar salad for weeks.

I've worked in the vegetable processing industry for 40 years and worked with many friends and former employees that have worked at a nearby meat packing plant that I've referenced. Meat and poultry processing are a lot different in that they employ 2-3 times the numbers we do and work in much more confined spaces closer to other workers. My former employer reports that they've been able to keep operating but have had to shut some plants down occasionally when they've had an employee test positive. One of my friends from work is under quarantine at this time. It's a challenge for them to operate, but they're doing it. The meat packing plant, on the other hand, has had 126 positive tests and counting. They've shut down and vowed to test every one of their 1400 employees.

If Trump wants to keep them open, he better step the testing support up. I wonder if the Idgit understands that is why we need more testing.

Yep. Testing and contact tracing.

Canned, packaged, frozen, and other processed foods have much higher inventories and can absorb the added demand, at least for a period of time. We may see shortages of certain types of food in certain locations, but we're not going to go hungry. Hoarders are a bigger threat. They may have to go to a rationing system like they did during WW2, but we're not going to starve.

I hope we don't starve. I don't want everything shutting down as a knee jerk reaction every time we get an outbreak. From what I understand and as you've stated, food processing is very labor intensive. And we do use a lot of immigrant labor. Trump. Trump better get some money support going to keep the food industry going including testing support. This guy is irritating the hell out of me. How much of our support stimulus and testing is going to food and healthcare? The Lakers are taking a loan? What is that?

The food industry isn't in trouble, at least not yet. Meat packing is perhaps the most labor intensive business in food processing. Even my facilities, which I initially thought it was crazy for them to operate, seem to be managing OK with the protocols they've put in place. They've had to shut down a few of them for several days due to positive tests, but nothing like what's going on in the fresh meat and poultry industry.. Our plants are only about 1/2 or 1/3 the number of workers as Tyson has.

I find it ironic that the POTUS considers these workers so essential that he's using the DPA to order them back to work. Most of these workers are low paid, entry level immigrants and minorities. If you read the article I liked, there are 11 different languages spoken in that one plant. Some may be undocumented. Agricultural work is even more heavily laden with immigrants and have a higher percentage of illegals amongst the workforce. If we do have a genuine food shortage, the plight of those workers and how they are treated will come to light, and it's not going to favor the POTUS as he's spent the past 4 years demonizing them. He's opening up a can of worms that Biden can exploit in the fall.

Yeah. pretty stupid. Just more of the hypocrisy that permeates our society in regards to immigrants. Great to have when you need them, easy targets to attack to get some easy votes from the racist, dumb group of Americans that don't bother to spend much time looking into things.

I don't mean to suggest that I have some ultimate understanding of immigrants as there's a lot that I don't know, but I wish others had a chance to experience them from the same viewpoint which I have. People fear most what they understand least, and way too many don't understand people from other cultures. I suspect it is the same in other countries as well.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't mean to suggest that I have some ultimate understanding of immigrants as there's a lot that I don't know, but I wish others had a chance to experience them from the same viewpoint which I have. People fear most what they understand least, and way too many don't understand people from other cultures. I suspect it is the same in other countries as well.

It's the same BS I have to bring up with conservatives. They watch some story on Fox News about some immigrant that murdered some people or did some crime and they start acting like it's every immigrant in the nation or even a large percentage. Then you explain that is one person or a few person among millions and they start to say , No it's not with no proof. The I bring up several domestic born serial killers and mass shooters who did worse and were European ancestry, then they go quiet or don't say much. Fact is the conservative love to buy into their theories of immigrants and dark-skinned folk being criminals even though it is an extremely small percentage for every group.

Then again it's hard to get the liberal groups to accept that crime will indeed rise with high levels of immigration from poor and war torn nations where criminals and criminal organizations will piggy back in with non-criminal immigrants. It happens and we must be concerned with it.

People really aren't very sensible. They love their extremist viewpoints and are rarely able to process information to reach a viewpoint that takes into account the varying arguments. Fortunately, people aren't particularly violent and if you have well-supported rule of law you can keep the true violent lunatics in line that would really make for a rotten society like the Kim Jong Uns and Mexican cartels.

[RiverDog]

I don't mean to suggest that I have some ultimate understanding of immigrants as there's a lot that I don't know, but I wish others had a chance to experience them from the same viewpoint which I have. People fear most what they understand least, and way too many don't understand people from other cultures. I suspect it is the same in other countries as well.

It's the same BS I have to bring up with conservatives. They watch some story on Fox News about some immigrant that murdered some people or did some crime and they start acting like it's every immigrant in the nation or even a large percentage. Then you explain that is one person or a few person among millions and they start to say , No it's not with no proof. The I bring up several domestic born serial killers and mass shooters who did worse and were European ancestry, then they go quiet or don't say much. Fact is the conservative love to buy into their theories of immigrants and dark-skinned folk being criminals even though it is an extremely small percentage for every group.

Then again it's hard to get the liberal groups to accept that crime will indeed rise with high levels of immigration from poor and war torn nations where criminals and criminal organizations will piggy back in with non-criminal immigrants. It happens and we must be concerned with it.

People really aren't very sensible. They love their extremist viewpoints and are rarely able to process information to reach a viewpoint that takes into account the varying arguments. Fortunately, people aren't particularly violent and if you have well-supported rule of law you can keep the true violent lunatics in line that would really make for a rotten society like the Kim Jong Uns and Mexican cartels.

The problem with immigrant crime isn't the immigrants themselves, it's the next generation. Because most immigrants enter the workforce at the bottom of the totem pole, they are forced by economic conditions to live in some of the most undesirable neighborhoods in the country, aka "The Hood", so that's the environment their kids grow up in. Somehow, we need to figure out how to break that cycle, not set them up to fail, where their children will fall victim to the same problems inherent with the ghetto.

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem with immigrant crime isn't the immigrants themselves, it's the next generation. Because most immigrants enter the workforce at the bottom of the totem pole, they are forced by economic conditions to live in some of the most undesirable neighborhoods in the country, aka "The Hood", so that's the environment their kids grow up in. Somehow, we need to figure out how to break that cycle, not set them up to fail, where their children will fall victim to the same problems inherent with the ghetto.

And we have to stop allowing criminal organizations to take advantage of the poverty and poor policing of immigrant and minority neighborhoods. It's easy to convince some penniless poor guy to slang drugs to make money to have a better life.

If you read up on how drug cartels take advantage of free immigration to piggyback in to our nation to set up drug operations, it would be eye-opening for you.

[url][https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/drug-trafficking-smuggling-cartels-tunnels/559814001//url]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2949286/

Wall won't stop these people either. They know what they're doing. They use free immigration to set up drug operations.

[RiverDog]

And we have to stop allowing criminal organizations to take advantage of the poverty and poor policing of immigrant and minority neighborhoods. It's easy to convince some penniless poor guy to slang drugs to make money to have a better life.

If you read up on how drug cartels take advantage of free immigration to piggyback in to our nation to set up drug operations, it would be eye-opening for you.

https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/st ... 559814001/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2949286/

Wall won't stop these people either. They know what they're doing. They use free immigration to set up drug operations.

Yep. Which is one of the reasons why I keep saying that Trump's wall is a hideous waste of money. There may be some places where it's appropriate, such as urban areas like San Diego, but the vast majority of illegal activity is not occurring across hundreds of miles of open stretches of the Sonoran desert or from wetbacks swimming the Rio Grande. We would be much better off putting that money towards other resources, electronic measures, drones, enhanced port of entry inspection, etc.

Perhaps with this downturn in the economy and an expected lessening of demand for immigration that we can take the time to overhaul our border security and immigration policy in general.

BTW, I fixed your link for you.

[c_hawkbob]

I know I've said this before but it's absolutely mt response to this thread as well:

We begin by ending the stupid failed war on drugs, do away with 90% of the "vice" type operations that are in effect policing adulthood (obviously except where children or trafficking is concerned) and refocus on getting more cops actually out on the streets in uniform doing the whole protect and serve thing. A big part of the equation would also be doing away with our for profit prison system and stop over-incarcerating the American people to keep dirty politicians and their "contributors" happy.

Defunding does NOT equal abolishing. In fact it's a terrible word (although no one has complained much about the decades of defunding the education system) ... refocusing our law enforcement resources would be a much more appropriate way to put it.

[RiverDog]

I know I've said this before but it's absolutely mt response to this thread as well:

We begin by ending the stupid failed war on drugs, do away with 90% of the "vice" type operations that are in effect policing adulthood (obviously except where children or trafficking is concerned) and refocus on getting more cops actually out on the streets in uniform doing the whole protect and serve thing. A big part of the equation would also be doing away with our for profit prison system and stop over-incarcerating the American people to keep dirty politicians and their "contributors" happy.

Defunding does NOT equal abolishing. In fact it's a terrible word (although no one has complained much about the decades of defunding the education system) ... refocusing our law enforcement resources would be a much more appropriate way to put it.

Agreed about the war on drugs. As I think you are alluding to, I would still apprehend and prosecute sellers and distributors, but not the end user. De-criminalize most drug offenses involving personal use. Most studies show that treatment and intervention are more successful than interdiction.

Refocusing policing strategy, or re-defining their mission, is one thing that I think we can agree on. But that's not the message that is being sent, or at least not the one which is being received, which seems to me to be to Demonize the police, painting all of them with the same brush stroke as a handful of bad cops, blaming them for a city's or society's problems, denying them the tools to do their jobs and protect themselves, and punishing departments by slashing their budgets.

As I mentioned in another thread, we have to recognize that the message that is being received by the police is creating a demoralizing effect among their ranks and is making law enforcement a much less desirable occupation which could lead to lower quality, less experienced individuals being employed by departments. The focus needs to be on improving departments, ferreting out bad cops, retaining good ones, and supporting them with appropriate training and tools.

[c_hawkbob]

The message being sent is entirely dependent upon who you're listening to. There are plenty of people (including the top of the Dem ticket) calling for common sense redistribution of our policing resources but if you choose only to listen to the extremists of what ever party you feel yourself opposed to all you are going to hear is that which angers you the most.

[RiverDog]

The message being sent is entirely dependent upon who you're listening to. There are plenty of people (including the top of the Dem ticket) calling for common sense redistribution of our policing resources but if you choose only to listen to the extremists of what ever party you feel yourself opposed to all you are going to hear is that which angers you the most.

Who I listen to or who you listen to doesn't matter. What matters is who the police are listening to, that is, city councils like Seattle's:

At least 41 Seattle Police Department officers have left the agency since the beginning of June, and sources in the department say several others are lining up to leave after a summer of street protests and attacks by City Council members that culminated recently with a vote to cut the police budget.

The department is also preparing for the departure of Chief Carmen Best, who decided to retire after the council's decision to slash the department's funding. It has prompted many officers to reevaluate their jobs with the city and the police department.

KOMO News found that a handful of police departments and law enforcement agencies across Puget Sound have received inquiries or applications from or offered jobs to current Seattle police officers.

Detective Ed Troyer with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department said his agency has offered contracts to five Seattle officers and are reviewing applications from 25 other applicants who are connected to SPD.

36 Seattle officers have applied for position at the King County Sheriff’s Office since June 5, according to a sheriff's spokesperson.

Everett police said at least 30 Seattle police officers have completed lateral applications and more have expressed interest, according to the Everett department.

According to a spokesperson for the Kent Police Department, “Since June, we have had 21 SPD officers apply. Two have been provided conditional offers of employment and are in the latter stages of our hiring process.”

A spokesperson for Tukwila police said roughly 15 to 20 Seattle officers have applied for a position with their department.

Bellevue police said they have received 35 applications from Seattle officers for two open positions.

https://keprtv.com/news/local/morale-am ... SK2uVJXbrs

[Aseahawkfan]

I know I've said this before but it's absolutely mt response to this thread as well:

We begin by ending the stupid failed war on drugs, do away with 90% of the "vice" type operations that are in effect policing adulthood (obviously except where children or trafficking is concerned) and refocus on getting more cops actually out on the streets in uniform doing the whole protect and serve thing. A big part of the equation would also be doing away with our for profit prison system and stop over-incarcerating the American people to keep dirty politicians and their "contributors" happy.

Defunding does NOT equal abolishing. In fact it's a terrible word (although no one has complained much about the decades of defunding the education system) ... refocusing our law enforcement resources would be a much more appropriate way to put it.

I don't want cops wandering around my neighborhood "protecting and serving" with these politicians writing tons of petty and stupid laws. Then I'll probably start reading about some unarmed black man killed for shooting off fireworks in his suburban house because some "protect and serve" cop is enforcing a no fireworks in city limits laws and went too far.

You ever spend much time reading the federal, state, and local laws and codes? It's ridiculous. The police could literally find some reason to stop, harass, and arrest almost anyone at any point in time with all the stupid laws on the book. I'm always shocked when I spend the time perusing the number of laws on the books that can be enforced if someone decides to enforce them. Zoning laws, property laws, commerce laws, traffic violations, and an enormous of stupid crap that can be used as a weapon against a citizen as needed. It's ridiculous. I'm surprise we all tolerate this crap.

[RiverDog]

You ever spend much time reading the federal, state, and local laws and codes? It's ridiculous. The police could literally find some reason to stop, harass, and arrest almost anyone at any point in time with all the stupid laws on the book. I'm always shocked when I spend the time perusing the number of laws on the books that can be enforced if someone decides to enforce them. Zoning laws, property laws, commerce laws, traffic violations, and an enormous of stupid crap that can be used as a weapon against a citizen as needed. It's ridiculous. I'm surprise we all tolerate this crap.

Truth. And it's so confusing and constantly changing that you can't even find out of something is against the law or not.

Back in May, on our first 80+ degree day, I was walking our dog on a horse trail in our neighborhood when I came upon a rattlesnake. Even though it came within inches of my dog's face, it did not strike or even rattle, at least not until I cornered it. Since the trail was very popular with small kids, pets, and that it was within a couple hundred feet of some residences, I decided it was best to kill it, and so as to alert my neighbors, I posted the incident on our neighborhood blog. The responses I got were mixed as many thanked me, but there were some that reacted as if I had just burned the American flag. One lady threatened to call the cops on me, so I responded by posting the non emergency number to our sheriff's office.

Curiosity got the better of me, so I decided to do some research to see if it was illegal to kill a western diamondback in the state of WA. I knew it wasn't against federal law as it is not listed as either an endangered or threatened species. Not finding anything definitive, I decided to call the sheriff's office and pose the question to them. None of the deputies in the office at the time had an answer for me, which I thought was rather odd as rattlesnakes are actually quite common around here with occasional reports of a person or pet getting bit by one. They passed me off to the State Department of Fish and Wildlife, where I was put on hold for an eternity before I finally decided to hang up.

You're preaching to the choir about these silly laws and ordinances.