Did the Founding Fathers see this coming?

[I-5]

I know that the members of this forum all have different opinions of our 45th president. I'm not interest in arguing that, but what we can all observe is there appears to be no guiding leadership coming from the the president other than his tweets inciting violence ('when the looting starts, the shooting starts' and retweet of 'the only good democrat is a dead democrat'), an ill-advised photo op in front of a boarded up church, and an intercepted phone call to governors ordering them to dominate the protestors. We all heard him threaten to bring the US military in to go against US civilians exercising their rights to protest. That seems to be highly highly illegal to me.

If this is not an attempted dictatorship, I would ask, what would an attempted dictatorship actually actually look like?

My second question is this: did the Founding Fathers put in any provision that allows a president to be removed outside of an election that doesn't involve a political process? For example, is there a national security process that could remove him, regardless of congress? From what I can see, the Founding Fathers put full faith in congress to do this job, but everything we've seen shows me that this congress (and Senate) is going to go with him all the way to Nov 3 no matter what happens.

We can all agree on one thing: both Putin and Xi are enjoying this spectacle.

[RiverDog]

I know that the members of this forum all have different opinions of our 45th president. I'm not interest in arguing that, but what we can all observe is there appears to be no guiding leadership coming from the the president other than his tweets inciting violence ('when the looting starts, the shooting starts' and retweet of 'the only good democrat is a dead democrat'), an ill-advised photo op in front of a boarded up church, and an intercepted phone call to governors ordering them to dominate the protestors. We all heard him threaten to bring the US military in to go against US civilians exercising their rights to protest. That seems to be highly highly illegal to me.

As Commander in Chief, the President does have the authority to take some extraordinary actions in the name of national security.
For example, he can nationalize the National Guard and command them to restore order in NYC. Eisenhower did so when the Governor of Arkansas refused to allow black students enroll in a public high school in spite of a Supreme Court decision outlawing segregation in public schools. As a matter of fact, Ike even sent in the 82nd Airborne to escort students to class.

If this is not an attempted dictatorship, I would ask, what would an attempted dictatorship actually actually look like?

Suspending the provisions in the Constitution. Throwing your political opponents in jail. Taking control of the military.

My second question is this: did the Founding Fathers put in any provision that allows a president to be removed outside of an election that doesn't involve a political process? For example, is there a national security process that could remove him, regardless of congress? From what I can see, the Founding Fathers put full faith in congress to do this job, but everything we've seen shows me that this congress (and Senate) is going to go with him all the way to Nov 3 no matter what happens.

No. There are only two Constitutionally prescribed methods to remove a President: Impeachment or the evoking of the 25th Amendment.

We can all agree on one thing: both Putin and Xi are enjoying this spectacle.

Yup, as are the neo Nazis and the KKK.

I want this sack of manure out of office as much as you do, but I want it done via the ballot box.

[I-5]

So Ike used his powers on behalf of a US citizen’s right to attend class. And Trump is threatening to use it to protect whose rights? We all know it’s for his image, nothing more or less.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump is an idiot. Terrible president to have right now. His fighting with the press and anyone who bothered him was amusing when times were good. But his mouth right now is annoying, It's irritating and counter-productive during these terrible times.

I wish he could learn to calm things, not make this into pissing match between The White House and everyone not agreeing with him.

[RiverDog]

So Ike used his powers on behalf of a US citizen’s right to attend class. And Trump is threatening to use it to protect whose rights? We all know it’s for his image, nothing more or less.

I don't necessarily disagree. But no matter how bad it may look to us, it pales in comparison to the power and methods used by leaders of totalitarian countries.

The conventional wisdom is that Trump's chances of re-election are "going down in flames", as one Republican operative put it. There have been a couple of polls that have come out since the protests began that show his deficit to Biden widening. His reaction to the situation is turning off white suburban females, a constituency he's going to need a healthy percentage of if he stands a chance of winning in November. More and more Republican politicians are beginning to distance themselves from him, calling his rhetoric "divisive", "not helpful", and "just the opposite message". He'd be better off just staying out of the limelight and putting down his cell phone for a couple of weeks, but the man can't help himself. He has a huge blind spot when it comes to understanding his weaknesses. To the contrary, he doesn't even see himself as having any weaknesses.

Trump has been taking on Bush 43 lately, who rarely speaks out and genuinely tried to help the situation by filling the void left by Trump's failure to deliver a somewhat unifying message. If he provokes Bush into turning on him, he can kiss goodbye the moderates he so desperately needs. There is almost zero chance that Trump will be able to get him to speak at the convention or participate in political ads like so many candidates have been able to take advantage of past presidents in the past. With Texas now a competitive state, Trump is tickling the dragon's tail with his trash talking of Bush, who remains very popular in the Lone Star state. He's playing exclusively to the far right wing of the party.

Personally I'm pretty reluctant to adapt that position as I know how wrong the talking heads were in 2016, that we're 5 months away from the election, and that the pubic has a notoriously short memory. But if I'm a Trump supporter, I'm mighty nervous about his prospects at this moment.

[RiverDog]

Trump is an idiot. Terrible president to have right now. His fighting with the press and anyone who bothered him was amusing when times were good. But his mouth right now is annoying, It's irritating and counter-productive during these terrible times.

I wish he could learn to calm things, not make this into pissing match between The White House and everyone not agreeing with him.

That's exactly why I have been so vehemently against him since the day he became a candidate. He is a piss poor leader. Character does matter when it comes to leadership. I don't object nearly as much to his politics as I do his persona.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's exactly why I have been so vehemently against him since the day he became a candidate. He is a piss poor leader. Character does matter when it comes to leadership. I don't object nearly as much to his politics as I do his persona.

Did his BS tweet, 'If you loot, we shoot." When did stealing property carry the death penalty in America? Don't we have property insurance so people aren't devastated by the loss of property? Seriously, this guy is so ignorant he would rather shoot people, have the lawsuits, push further unrest, then wait it out? I could see this stance if armed people were killing cops or burning everything down in every city, but we haven't come close to that point yet. Ridiculous.

[I-5]

Does anyone think he actually cares about our institutions beyond what he thinks he can get away with? I'm sure if he could throw CNN reporters in jail, he would have done so by now. He absolutely can command the military, but at this point, I highly doubt his generals want to be seen coming down against US citizens after what happened in Lafayette Square, and Trump at least understands that. That's what we would call 'bad optics'.

If you're Trump, all you care about is either surviving the election, or finding a way to not go to prison if you get voted out. Preserving our institutions is the very last thing he would worry about. Scratch that, he's never worried about it, much less understood it.

[RiverDog]

I found this to be pretty astounding. James Mattis, Trump's defense secretary for almost two years, has denounced Trump as "...the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership.

“When you leave an administration over clear policy differences, you need to give the people who are still there as much opportunity as possible to defend the country. They still have the responsibility of protecting this great big experiment of ours.” He did add, however: “There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago,” he writes, “I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a ‘battlespace’ that our uniformed military is called upon to ‘dominate.’ At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them."

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... YD3Gc7K4Mo

[c_hawkbob]

“There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”

We're going to here a LOT of that in the coming years, Trump's legacy is going to be pure sh!t after all the competent, honest people he's chewed up and spat out during his presidency become done holding their tongues.

[Aseahawkfan]

Does anyone think he actually cares about our institutions beyond what he thinks he can get away with? I'm sure if he could throw CNN reporters in jail, he would have done so by now. He absolutely can command the military, but at this point, I highly doubt his generals want to be seen coming down against US citizens after what happened in Lafayette Square, and Trump at least understands that. That's what we would call 'bad optics'.

If you're Trump, all you care about is either surviving the election, or finding a way to not go to prison if you get voted out. Preserving our institutions is the very last thing he would worry about. Scratch that, he's never worried about it, much less understood it.

Yeah. There are. I know people that are talking smack about second amendment rights and the Constitution that are huge Trump supporters who are too stupid to realize the 2nd Amendment was created to arm up citizens should some dumb president try to use the military in an unconstitutional way like limiting free speech and ordering a military to shoot looters. These so called supporters of the Constitution only conveniently call on it when it suits their beliefs and opinions and conveniently ignore it when it does not. They do not understand the Constitution nor really believe in it. It's just another talking point on their part. I'd bet money Trump knows very little about the Constitution, it's creation, or the idea of natural law. These same Trumptards consider his stance as "tough", even when he is engaged in Constitutionally unsound behaviors. They don't seem to care. It's all about the political divisiveness to them and not about American values or improving the nation. They hate liberals and want to vent their hate and pettiness along with their pathetic "leader."

[I-5]

At this point, this is about as scared as I’ve ever been about our country. Trump himself is eclipsing the topic of systemic racism, by his spectacular failure as a leader. Hawktalk wasn’t strong enough in his criticism, in hindsight. Trump is much, much, worse than even I thought he could be.

Is there a flaw in how the Founding Fathers designed the three branches that something like this shitstorm is able to happen and show no signs of slowing down before the election?

Trump has every living president and nearly every retired military leader (who still have a ton of influence in the current service), and even the current Sec of Defense going against his leadership. It’s way beyond politics at this point. I think most of us can see that. When will the republican senators finally do something?

[Aseahawkfan]

At this point, this is about as scared as I’ve ever been about our country. Trump himself is eclipsing the topic of systemic racism, by his spectacular failure as a leader. Hawktalk wasn’t strong enough in his criticism, in hindsight. Trump is much, much, worse than even I thought he could be.

Is there a flaw in how the Founding Fathers designed the three branches that something like this shitstorm is able to happen and show no signs of slowing down before the election?

Trump has every living president and nearly every retired military leader (who still have a ton of influence in the current service), and even the current Sec of Defense going against his leadership. It’s way beyond politics at this point. I think most of us can see that. When will the republican senators finally do something?

No. The people choose the leader they want, even if they want a rancorous idiot. We'll see in November if they've had enough or their liberal hate has enough left in it to carry this idiot to a second term.

I'm not concerned about America. We will survive. But we might be in for some rough times, but it still won't be nearly as rough as our ancestors dealt with during The Great Depression. two World Wars, a Civil War, a Revolutionary War, and colonizing a wide open land to solidify power. This is this generation's tough period. Hopefully it will toughen them up and wake them up so they start realizing they can't float through life in a haze. They're going to have to put work in to maintain the world and make it better.

This will suck and made all the worse by the COVID19 lock down, but we'll survive and hopefully come out of it better in the long run. I really believe all these protests wouldn't be near as bad had we not had everyone locked down at home with no school to go to, no work to go to, massive unemployment, and the like. These governors and politicians set themselves up for this and now they're reaping their decisions.

[RiverDog]

I'd bet money Trump knows very little about the Constitution, it's creation, or the idea of natural law.

Yeah, but who in their right mind would take you up on such a bet?

With all trash talking aside and as dead serious as I can make myself appear to be, the more Trump talks, whether it be to the PM of India telling him "It's not like you have China on your border", his tweet showing that he thought that Paris is in Germany, that the Mexican border extends to Colorado, his rendition of the Revolutionary Army storming airports, or his statement to doctors suggesting they look at injecting a disinfectant and ultraviolet lights to cleanse the body of the coronavirus, I am truly convinced that the man is a moron.

[RiverDog]

At this point, this is about as scared as I’ve ever been about our country. Trump himself is eclipsing the topic of systemic racism, by his spectacular failure as a leader. Hawktalk wasn’t strong enough in his criticism, in hindsight. Trump is much, much, worse than even I thought he could be.

Is there a flaw in how the Founding Fathers designed the three branches that something like this shitstorm is able to happen and show no signs of slowing down before the election?

Trump has every living president and nearly every retired military leader (who still have a ton of influence in the current service), and even the current Sec of Defense going against his leadership. It’s way beyond politics at this point. I think most of us can see that. When will the republican senators finally do something?

I'm not nearly as scared as you and Hawktalk. I found General Mattis's comments to be very refreshing, almost a warning shot across Trump's bow, that he could not command the military to do something that was clearly unconstitutional or immoral as every buck private took an oath the same as he did. The US Constitution is still valid and is working as we speak. Indeed, it's the one thing that stands between a POTUS gone mad (not saying that Trump has) and pushing the button. I have no doubt that there have been countless times when Trump has had to be told that he can't do this, that, or the other thing because it's unconstitutional.

We're only 5 months away from the election. Mattis coming out so strongly against Trump is a big deal. It's going to hurt Trump big time to have a man from within his own cabinet, and such a high ranking cabinet position to boot, for close to two years break his silence and condemn him in the language that he used. The only person with more drawing power that could come out against him would be George Bush, a prospect that at this point, would not surprise anyone.

You have to look at the bright side of all of this. Trump is virtually guaranteeing his own defeat. He can't afford to have people like General Mattis come out against him.

[RiverDog]

“There is a period in which I owe my silence. It’s not eternal. It’s not going to be forever.”

We're going to here a LOT of that in the coming years, Trump's legacy is going to be pure sh!t after all the competent, honest people he's chewed up and spat out during his presidency become done holding their tongues.

As a rule, it takes several decades for historians to get a good hold on a former President's legacy, but I don't think it's going to take that long in Trump's case. Once Trump is defeated in November.. Although I've been wrong in the past, I simply can't see him climbing out of the hole that he's dug himself into over the past couple months. I'm more confident in his defeat now than I have been at any point in the past 3 years. Once he leaves office, we'll start seeing a steady stream of kiss and tell books.

[I-5]

Your ‘working as we speak’ comment, while trying to remain calm and serene as if this is exactly how it’s supposed to be, conjures up the image of the RMS Titanic band heroically playing as the ship slowly slipped into the frigid waters of the Atlantic in the middle of the night. Mattis broke his vow to never criticize a sitting president. Would he do that if he thought it was working as designed? I didn’t find it refreshing at all, and I don’t think he meant it to be.

Trump at this point, the way he is trying to restore ‘law and order’ by ‘dominating’ protestors who have a legitimate issue, not only shows how utterly clueless he is about leading a country, he now looks like a dictator losing his power, very similar to President Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines in 1986. Ironically, the Philippine system of government is modeled exactly on the template of the United States of America, with the same 3 branches of government, and they were also unable to stop him. Marcos refused to leave elected office by declaring martial law, until events around the huge protest for the killing of his main rival led to fed up citizens surrounding the presidential palace. Marcos also ordered his military to quell the protests, until one by one, the leaders of each branch defected (except for the army) refusing to go against its own citizens. In the end, Marcos realized he couldn’t survive if he killed any protestors, so he called the army off. In that case, the system of checks and balances failed, until the people literally had him surrounded. The details differ, but the images are beginning to overlap. The ill-fated clearing of protestors to get to the stupid photo opp is the absolute worst thing he could have done to show his weakness while trying to project strength. It shows how clueless he really is. I’m curious to see how far his supporters are willing to go down with him. Lindsey Graham is strangely silent these days.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your ‘working as we speak’ comment, while trying to remain calm and serene as if this is exactly how it’s supposed to be, conjures up the image of the RMS Titanic band heroically playing as the ship slowly slipped into the frigid waters of the Atlantic in the middle of the night. Mattis broke his vow to never criticize a sitting president. Would he do that if he thought it was working as designed? I didn’t find it refreshing at all, and I don’t think he meant it to be.

Trump at this point, the way he is trying to restore ‘law and order’ by ‘dominating’ protestors who have a legitimate issue, not only shows how utterly clueless he is about leading a country, he now looks like a dictator losing his power, very similar to President Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines in 1986. Ironically, the Philippine system of government is modeled exactly on the template of the United States of America, with the same 3 branches of government, and they were also unable to stop him. Marcos refused to leave elected office by declaring martial law, until events around the huge protest for the killing of his main rival led to fed up citizens surrounding the presidential palace. Marcos also ordered his military to quell the protests, until one by one, the leaders of each branch defected (except for the army) refusing to go against its own citizens. In the end, Marcos realized he couldn’t survive if he killed any protestors, so he called the army off. In that case, the system of checks and balances failed, until the people literally had him surrounded. The details differ, but the images are beginning to overlap. The ill-fated clearing of protestors to get to the stupid photo opp is the absolute worst thing he could have done to show his weakness while trying to project strength. It shows how clueless he really is. I’m curious to see how far his supporters are willing to go down with him. Lindsey Graham is strangely silent these days.

He never had that kind of power to begin with by design. He is unlikely to be able to exercise the power he thinks he has. Which is why I have never been in fear in the way you seem to be. There are checks and balances on president. He can talk a lot as we know Trump does, but can't do a whole lot. The President lives in a gilded cage. Even though the news puts forth these Trump protesters as angry and such, the government workers know what they can and cannot do. Even the Republicans won't support much of Trump's idiot talk. Not like any of them wanted us turned into some third world dictatorship. Trump don't have that kind of power inside or outside the government. He's just a bunch of hot air who eventually has to shut his mouth for a while when other Republicans tell him, "Hey, we cannot and won't be doing that. So if you want to keep your job, you need to STFU."

I don't understand why so many left leaning people don't understand that Trump may seem like he has power talking smack, but behind closed doors there are Republicans more powerful than Trump patting him on his head and telling the Republicans around him to keep that idiot occupied thinking he has power and don't do half the stuff that idiot tells you do. Trump is not more powerful than the Republican Party. He just has the vote right now and is harder to keep in line than most intelligent Republican presidents. Be sure that powerful Republicans behind the scene are keeping that clown to mostly talk.

[I-5]

For sure I agree it's the republican senators that are the ones keeping him in power. That's why I said that in my OP. Without them, he's toast. So far, they're going right along with him.

[RiverDog]

Your ‘working as we speak’ comment, while trying to remain calm and serene as if this is exactly how it’s supposed to be, conjures up the image of the RMS Titanic band heroically playing as the ship slowly slipped into the frigid waters of the Atlantic in the middle of the night. Mattis broke his vow to never criticize a sitting president. Would he do that if he thought it was working as designed? I didn’t find it refreshing at all, and I don’t think he meant it to be.

What I took away from Mattis's comments was that he was concerned about Trump's not even trying to unite the country, that he only cares about his base. In my opinion, he threw in the tidbit about his oath upon entering the military as a means of reminding Trump that there are limits to his power, but even that is pure speculation. In any event, I do not get the impression that he feels that the Constitution is being threatened or that the country is in peril.

Trump at this point, the way he is trying to restore ‘law and order’ by ‘dominating’ protestors who have a legitimate issue, not only shows how utterly clueless he is about leading a country, he now looks like a dictator losing his power, very similar to President Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines in 1986. Ironically, the Philippine system of government is modeled exactly on the template of the United States of America, with the same 3 branches of government, and they were also unable to stop him. Marcos refused to leave elected office by declaring martial law, until events around the huge protest for the killing of his main rival led to fed up citizens surrounding the presidential palace. Marcos also ordered his military to quell the protests, until one by one, the leaders of each branch defected (except for the army) refusing to go against its own citizens. In the end, Marcos realized he couldn’t survive if he killed any protestors, so he called the army off. In that case, the system of checks and balances failed, until the people literally had him surrounded. The details differ, but the images are beginning to overlap. The ill-fated clearing of protestors to get to the stupid photo opp is the absolute worst thing he could have done to show his weakness while trying to project strength. It shows how clueless he really is. I’m curious to see how far his supporters are willing to go down with him. Lindsey Graham is strangely silent these days.

Trump's "law and order", "dominate the protesters" remarks should not have surprised anyone that has watched him over the past 3+ years like we all have. It was classic Trump, putting on a show for his base. Same with his little hold up the Bible stunt. I'd bet money that the man hasn't actually read more than a couple of lines from it or could quote a favorite verse.

As far as your comparison to Marcos and the Philippines, they are/were a developing country. Apples and oranges compared to the US. Chill out, guy! As disgusting as it is, take solace in the fact that Trump is taking what could have been a very close election and turning it into a decisive Biden victory.

[Aseahawkfan]

For sure I agree it's the republican senators that are the ones keeping him in power. That's why I said that in my OP. Without them, he's toast. So far, they're going right along with him.

And keeping him controlled from doing some of his stupid ideas. The idea is to keep the presidency, not let him destroy the country. I'm sure the majority of Republicans will be relieved when the clown is out of office, properly voted out. Not some fake Russian Spy crap dreamed up by Democrats.

And we aren't the Philippines or even close to it. No idea why you are comparing us to them other than to exaggerate the situation. We've had more powerful and charismatic presidents than Trump. I can pretty much guarantee Trump after four years compared to Marcos 31 years as president doesn't have his "puppets" installed in the military or other branches of government. So comparing Trump to Marcos is ridiculous.

Man, why can't you just rationally see this clown and the presidency in the U.S. for what they are rather than making these comparisons that have little to no traction. Marcos was a dictator, not a president. He installed his people to protect him, which we don't even allow. He had control over the military that we don't even give a president.

Just stop with that type of fool's comparison. Trump's a toothless jerk who gets supported by the Republican Party when they want something or want to protect the presidency and ignored when they know he's doing something he can't do or is utterly stupid. Stop acting like the Republican Party doesn't have a bunch of intelligent, capable leaders who are keeping the idiot in chief in line from doing his stupider ideas.

[I-5]

Maybe I'm not aware, so you can englighten me. When was the last time a US president called in the National Guard against citizens?

If Trump loses an election, how do you think he will respond? Do you see him walking away from the presidency without calling for his people to take up arms and incite violence?

The only thing I agree with you is that Marcos had the benefit of 20 years to install his minions, though I don't think he did quite as much damage his first term as this president has. I also said the details are different (which of course you would ignore me saying that), but the images have some resemblance. I didn't and never said they were actually the same thing, just that the images we're seeing remind me of that.

[RiverDog]

Maybe I'm not aware, so you can englighten me. When was the last time a US president called in the National Guard against citizens?

Both Eisenhower and Johnson nationalized the National Guard over the objections of their respective state's governors. You may not call those actions as being "against citizens", but certainly the people that were concerned about qualify as citizens. But I get your point.

If Trump loses an election, how do you think he will respond? Do you see him walking away from the presidency without calling for his people to take up arms and incite violence?

I posed that question in another thread. If he loses, I do think that he's going to make up some conspiracy theory, most likely vote by mail, and try to de-legitimize the election. Although I don't think he'd go so far as to blatantly ask his supporters to overthrow the government, some might interpret something he says as a call to arms. If the election is close like it was in 2000, it's going to be real ugly. Hopefully we don't get that far, that Biden wins by 3-4 states.

It's going to be an interesting back half of the year.

[I-5]

I posed that question in another thread. If he loses, I do think that he's going to make up some conspiracy theory, most likely vote by mail, and try to de-legitimize the election. Although I don't think he'd go so far as to blatantly ask his supporters to overthrow the government, some might interpret something he says as a call to arms. If the election is close like it was in 2000, it's going to be real ugly. Hopefully we don't get that far, that Biden wins by 3-4 states.

Thanks Riv. Do you think even if Biden wins by 10 states, that Trump won't try to de-legitimize the election? After all, he tried to de-legitimise the last election, and he won that electoral vote. I think it's going to be ugly no matter what the outcome is. If he does lose (and I'm not confident in that outcome yet), it will be interesting to see how quickly the rats jump off the ship. I guess I like ship metaphors today.

[Aseahawkfan]

Maybe I'm not aware, so you can englighten me. When was the last time a US president called in the National Guard against citizens?

Here are 12 times.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-national-guard-deployments-timeline-htmlstory.html

Presidents and governors have done a surprising amount of controlling and shady crap that doesn't get publicized, especially if you're not paying attention for it.

If Trump loses an election, how do you think he will respond? Do you see him walking away from the presidency without calling for his people to take up arms and incite violence?

I think he'll leave office. I think the Republicans will tell him he lost. They won't back any coup or other trash like you seem to think they will. The Party leaders and whips will show up while Trump tries to talk, look at the cabinet members and notify the military Trump is done, they will politely ignore him, and then tell him to prepare to leave The White House. Like has happened for every president in history. Parties control the government, not individuals in America. I do not understand why you think otherwise because Trump is a big mouth. I guarantee you that Trump does not hold dictatorial power in this nation no matter how many times he does something stupid like his church photo op or his stupid tweets. People will not listen to him and will not obey him if he tries any kind of violent coup or anything of the kind. He loses. He's done. The worst you'll see from him is whining and tweeting.

The only thing I agree with you is that Marcos had the benefit of 20 years to install his minions, though I don't think he did quite as much damage his first term as this president has. I also said the details are different (which of course you would ignore me saying that), but the images have some resemblance. I didn't and never said they were actually the same thing, just that the images we're seeing remind me of that.

There is no comparison between The Phillipines and The United States. No party has ever questioned the elections or attempted a coup in the United States since The Civil War. I am not sure why Trump has you believing anyone will support him not accepting the results of an election. The Senate won't support it. The House won't. His cabinet members have no power to stop it. The Republican Party leaders won't support it. If he steps out of line after losing an election, I can guarantee powerful Republicans like the Bushes, Cheneys, Romneys and the like will step in and usher his orange ass out of The White House gladly.

Trump has no more power in the Republican Party than Obama has in the Democratic Party. He has no more power to hold the presidency after losing an election than any past president. You are basically implying that the Republican Party will back a military coup of the nation, which has a less than zero percent chance of happening.

[RiverDog]

I posed that question in another thread. If he loses, I do think that he's going to make up some conspiracy theory, most likely vote by mail, and try to de-legitimize the election. Although I don't think he'd go so far as to blatantly ask his supporters to overthrow the government, some might interpret something he says as a call to arms. If the election is close like it was in 2000, it's going to be real ugly. Hopefully we don't get that far, that Biden wins by 3-4 states.

Thanks Riv. Do you think even if Biden wins by 10 states, that Trump won't try to de-legitimize the election? After all, he tried to de-legitimise the last election, and he won that electoral vote. I think it's going to be ugly no matter what the outcome is. If he does lose (and I'm not confident in that outcome yet), it will be interesting to see how quickly the rats jump off the ship. I guess I like ship metaphors today.

Of course, he's going to try to de-legitimize the election whether he loses by 1 electoral vote or 100. He is a confirmed narcissist, and can never admit to anything close to rejection. But the more states he loses by, the more incredible his claims.

I'm not confident in a Biden win, either. To the contrary, in 2016, I didn't give Trump a snowball's chance in hell not because of the pundits that were predicting a Clinton win, but rather I did not see how or where Trump was deriving his support from.

What's interesting about the Mattis story is that it comes on the heals of George W. Bush's equally uncharacteristic statement regarding the Floyd killing. Bush has remained in the background for the vast majority of the time since he left office in 2009, including the entire time that Obama was in office. If Bush were to come out against Trump, he'd at least lose Texas, which along with Florida, is a must for Trump.

[I-5]

"Mr. Trump says he's had enough and warns that he'll seek to adjourn both chambers of Congress if lawmakers don't formally declare a proper recess. That way, he could appoint some nominees without the Senate's approval. Mr. Trump said, "Perhaps it's never been done before, nobody's even sure if it has, but we're going to do it."

The Constitution doesn't spell out a unilateral power for the president to adjourn Congress. It states only that he can decide on adjournment if there's a dispute over it between the House and Senate. Such a disagreement doesn't now exist, nor is it likely to arise.

Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley tweeted that the Constitution gives a president authority in "extraordinary occasions" to convene or adjourn Congress. However, he said, "This power has never been used and should not be used now."

------

Business as usual again?

[RiverDog]

"Mr. Trump says he's had enough and warns that he'll seek to adjourn both chambers of Congress if lawmakers don't formally declare a proper recess. That way, he could appoint some nominees without the Senate's approval. Mr. Trump said, "Perhaps it's never been done before, nobody's even sure if it has, but we're going to do it."

The Constitution doesn't spell out a unilateral power for the president to adjourn Congress. It states only that he can decide on adjournment if there's a dispute over it between the House and Senate. Such a disagreement doesn't now exist, nor is it likely to arise.

Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley tweeted that the Constitution gives a president authority in "extraordinary occasions" to convene or adjourn Congress. However, he said, "This power has never been used and should not be used now."

------

Business as usual again?

That's just Trump talking out of his arse again, like he has when he says he's going to over rule the governors and open the economy. The Supreme Court would rule 9-0 that he can't adjourn Congress.

[c_hawkbob]

You keep saying it's nothing every time he threatens stuff like this, and it is nothing, until it's not. This is an extremely dangerous SOB here, nobody knows just what's going to happen.

I wanna see his tweets when he gets a load of the new street across from the White House! (That DC Mayor has got some stones!)

[RiverDog]

You keep saying it's nothing every time he threatens stuff like this, and it is nothing, until it's not.

So which one of his wild eyed, outrageously unconstitutional statements have come to fruition? Heck, he hasn't even issued any pardons to his jailed buddies like Roger Stone even though he is fully within his rights to do so and would go unchallenged if he were to issue them.

[Aseahawkfan]

You keep saying it's nothing every time he threatens stuff like this, and it is nothing, until it's not. This is an extremely dangerous SOB here, nobody knows just what's going to happen.

I wanna see his tweets when he gets a load of the new street across from the White House! (That DC Mayor has got some stones!)

It's not a matter of him being nothing. Pure fact is he hasn't done anything to warrant some kind of violent removal or upheaval of the current election system. And he isn't Marcos, Putin, or any of the 3rd world dictators. He's a loud mouth who might do worse if he had people willing to do it, but he doesn't. And if he tries, he'll get tossed out office. People are clearly tiring of this guy. And hopefully they'll make it clear how tired they are in November. He will be removed by an election for his ignorance, pettiness, meanness, and general rotten leadership, as it should be.

If you and I5 feel like pretending he's some kind of 3rd world dictator, have at it. But I'm not falling for that trash. I know plenty of people who have lived in third world crapholes and nothing Donald Trump has done in his entire life much less time as president compares to what it is to be ruled by a real third world dictator or totalitarian government. Trump is a bunch of hot air that is learning his hot air does not serve him well in America. We have plenty of checks and balances to make sure a clown like him can't do 3rd world dictator trash. Trump's lack of ability to "dominate" and "you loot, we shoot" trash shows our Constitution is working as intended to cage an idiot. If anything Trump is a testament to the construction of our Constitution and it's ability to keep a rich, callous, narcissistic, empathy-lacking idiot in line.

[Aseahawkfan]

"Mr. Trump says he's had enough and warns that he'll seek to adjourn both chambers of Congress if lawmakers don't formally declare a proper recess. That way, he could appoint some nominees without the Senate's approval. Mr. Trump said, "Perhaps it's never been done before, nobody's even sure if it has, but we're going to do it."

The Constitution doesn't spell out a unilateral power for the president to adjourn Congress. It states only that he can decide on adjournment if there's a dispute over it between the House and Senate. Such a disagreement doesn't now exist, nor is it likely to arise.

Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley tweeted that the Constitution gives a president authority in "extraordinary occasions" to convene or adjourn Congress. However, he said, "This power has never been used and should not be used now."

------

Business as usual again?

Nope. But he'll be stopped. Just another example of Trump spouting hot air that he can't make happen. Trump is not someone who can issue absolute commands. Trump the Chump is learning that.

I do not so much trust Trump to not be a total scumbag, I trust in our Constitution and other Republicans who know the Constitution to keep his stupid ass in line until he is voted out.

Our Constitution was designed for this exact type of person and their attempts to circumvent the Constitution to act like a tyrant. If it works, then he will be caged and tossed out in due time. If it doesn't, then we the American people have the 1st and 2nd Amendment to handle it. If you're not ready to take up arms against a scumbag like Trump trying to enact tyranny, then you don't really much believe what you're saying. Fact is if Trump tries to tyrannize America as you think he is doing, then you and all those who think the same best take up arms and be ready to fight to make sure your country remains free. Because that is the final option provided you by the Constitution as provided in the 2nd Amendent.

You are finding out right now why I so vehemently support the 2nd Amendment. When you have a guy who doesn't follow the law, is always looking to circumvent it, and wants to use the military to "dominate", then the American people had best be ready to fight back if for some reason the military leadership and government leadership wont' get the out of control dog back under control.

That's another of the things I question about liberals. They see tyranny and yet don't seem willing to arm up to stand against it. It's like they forget they have the 2nd Amendment for this exact reason. If I see the military used in a manner the idgit Trump is planning to use it, I may heading to the store to pick up the weapons because I may need it if Trump-backers pretending to love the Constitution keep backing this clown who needs to be gone from office in November.

[c_hawkbob]

You keep saying it's nothing every time he threatens stuff like this, and it is nothing, until it's not.

So which one of his wild eyed, outrageously unconstitutional statements have come to fruition? Heck, he hasn't even issued any pardons to his jailed buddies like Roger Stone even though he is fully within his rights to do so and would go unchallenged if he were to issue them.

I said it's nothing until it's not. Obviously we haven't reached that threshold yet, but because "until it's not' hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. I would not at all be surprised to see one day before this is all said and do see that it has.

[c_hawkbob]

So now he's putting together his own Republican Guard like Saddam Hussein. You still think putting up a fight upon losing the election is such a long shot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja8PC_Y ... yL0BvHZQd8

[RiverDog]

So now he's putting together his own Republican Guard like Saddam Hussein. You still think putting up a fight upon losing the election is such a long shot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja8PC_Y ... yL0BvHZQd8

Short answer: Yes.

You do realize that the op-ed at MSNBC is the liberal equivalent to Fox News, don't you?

[c_hawkbob]

that was just the only link I could find to the unmarked, unnamed troops patrolling around the WH. My point was the facts not the opinion.

[RiverDog]

that was just the only link I could find to the unmarked, unnamed troops patrolling around the WH. My point was the facts not the opinion.

There are lot of unnamed citizens and groups of citizens, many of them armed and mostly law abiding, that are roaming the streets and parking lots in an effort to discourage rioting and looting. We have one here in the Tri Cities that formed when rumors over social media surfaced that there was going to be a vandalism spree. They are in contact with local police, who have advised them on the limits of what they can do as citizens. There was/is another similar group of citizens that formed to protect businesses up near your old stomping grounds in Snohomish County. I can provide links if you like.

I'm not saying that the citizens in that video were formed for the same purposes that I've described above, only that given the level of violence that now engulfs our nation, it should be no surprise to see the types of activities such as what we're witnessing. It's not necessarily a silent conspiracy by DJT to set up a Hussein-style Republican Guard.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh for chrissakes! That was not just a group of random citizens! I ain't buying that crap at all.

[RiverDog]

Oh for chrissakes! That was not just a group of random citizens! I ain't buying that crap at all.

OK, fine, don't buy it. But you're going to have to come up with a lot more credible evidence other that what appears to be a few prison guards from Texas patrolling the White House grounds/streets of DC to convince me that it's the genesis of a Hussein-style Republican Guard.

[Hawktawk]

At this point, this is about as scared as I’ve ever been about our country. Trump himself is eclipsing the topic of systemic racism, by his spectacular failure as a leader. Hawktalk wasn’t strong enough in his criticism, in hindsight. Trump is much, much, worse than even I thought he could be.

Is there a flaw in how the Founding Fathers designed the three branches that something like this shitstorm is able to happen and show no signs of slowing down before the election?

Trump has every living president and nearly every retired military leader (who still have a ton of influence in the current service), and even the current Sec of Defense going against his leadership. It’s way beyond politics at this point. I think most of us can see that. When will the republican senators finally do something?

Thanks for the props I5. I know we agree about Trump but TDS isnt looking so unreasonable anymore . Its his slavish rube supporters at this point who have it, anyone who truly thinks its a good thing hes in the oval office at all is delusional. Pence should be in there, should have been long ago, weeks into this presidency. Im really proud as a lifelong republican and ardent Obama critic that I figured this out when Trump wasnt to the bottom of the escalator. Im overwhelmingly sad so many in my former party that no longer exists do support him, he enjoys a 95% approval among the trumpanzee base.

Ive said from day one hes a danger to the planet. Its not unfolded the way i feared (yet) which is all out war but there's still time. Weve become a shell of ourselves as a nation these last 3 years though. Thers a lot more to leading than a bunch of executive orders, red meat for the base, cancelling every treaty and hiring a bunch of goldman sachs guys to red line the markets..

And no I5 I dont think the founding fathers envisioned a time when getting and keeping power would cause dozens of normally decent honorable men and women to support a madman tearing at the fabric of the very world order. Impeachment has been proven a joke as has the 25th amendment.

As I said at the time the vote on impeachment should be secret, like a jury. As former Sen Jeff Flake said if it was secret 35 republicans would vote to remove him. Legislators vote in public, jurors which they become should be able to vote secretly without fear of political retribution. It wont happen and I dont think its even worth trying for any party ever again barring a 70% majority in the Senate.

After Mattis comments Lisa Murkowski said she agreed with them and mused about whether some more people might speak their conscience. She said she was "struggling" with whether to support DJT in november. If you agree with mattis whats the struggle Lisa??? Ben Sasse who grew a pair then they shrunk off as November approaches only said Mattis is a man of integrity. Moscow Mitch refused to answer any questions as most of the other R senators. so to answer when they might do something I5 its NEVER. They are despicable political snakes. Theres 1 republican left, Mitt Romney. They say wait till Novemeber and vote him out as he tries to bankrupt the postal service and his corrupt AG tries to deconstruct the russia and ukraine investigations.Barr has said any investigations into the 2020 vote will be approved by him alone.. Intelligence says russia is at it again. I feel real safe with our voting system let me tell yiou
The founders met their match