Is Trump Starting to Wear Down?

[Aseahawkfan]

We discussed this issue in another thread a number of months ago. I get the majority of my news from my Microsoft news feed on my Surface tablet. I can pick out the sources that are used and have intentionally selected both conservative sources as well as liberal. I want a wide viewpoint from multiple angles. I'll watch the local news on our NBC affiliate in the mornings and I get a digital replica of our local newspaper. When I'm at my gym, I'll watch either Fox or MSNBC on the TV as those are the only two national news syndicates available.

The problem with the media isn't the accuracy or reliability of their reporting. They can't afford to put out a story that hasn't been thoroughly checked out as it would damage their credibility. They don't want a scandal like CBS had to endure with the Bush Air National Guard story or CNN experienced with the Operation Tailwind story. That's why I insist on seeing a story in one of the major news services or some other source I trust before I'll believe it as although it won't necessarily be an objective report, they won't publish 'fake news.'

The problem is the stories they choose to report on. As I noted, when I exercise on an aerobic machine at the gym, I can watch either Fox News or MSNBC and will alternate between the two. On one particular day, Fox was reporting on a female college student from Iowa that was murdered by an illegal alien. I turned the channel to MSNBC and found that their lead story was the Ukraine scandal. News services are for-profit, so they will show stories that will attract and retain viewers so they will select stories that they feel will appeal to their core viewers as advertisers look at the size and demographics of the viewers that are watching a particular station. Even non profits like NPR will feature stories that appeal to their audience as they, too, have a vested interest in attracting and retaining viewers. The same is true with print media. You want a liberal spin, read the Washington Post. You want a conservative spin, read the Washington Examiner.

I'll also look for the sources reporters are quoting. A named source always carries more weight than "sources close to the President".

Maybe the actual news stories have to be accurate, but the commentators get to do what they want as near as I can tell. These commentators are the ones feeding people their opinions, not the generic news stories. If someone wants unsubstantiated crap news, they go to social media. If they want a good rant absent sufificient evidence, they go to Hannity, Tucker, Lemon, or Cooper. Where they seem to just rattle on with their opinion. Same with people like John Oliver. That is not news, but they have tremendous power to influence opinion and votes. It's why they get paid.

As near as I can tell right, an agenda is being pushed to attack white men sending them into a tizzy. I don't watch much of it myself, but that seems to be the takeaway. The latest Fox News story is about someone in the Seattle City Council pushing some "you should apologize" for being white training or something. This crap is just further inflaming divisions.

[RiverDog]

Maybe the actual news stories have to be accurate, but the commentators get to do what they want as near as I can tell. These commentators are the ones feeding people their opinions, not the generic news stories.

If someone wants unsubstantiated crap news, they go to social media. If they want a good rant absent sufificient evidence, they go to Hannity, Tucker, Lemon, or Cooper. Where they seem to just rattle on with their opinion. Same with people like John Oliver. That is not news, but they have tremendous power to influence opinion and votes. It's why they get paid.

I agree. That's why I'll listen to the same story on multiple channels or read it from multiple sources. The problem is that there's too many people that won't take the time or simply don't want to hear another POV as it doesn't align with their core beliefs. It's a problem that affects both sides of the political spectrum and is IMO one of the causes for this sharp political divide that exists today.

I generally try to stay away from the op-ed guys like Sean Hannity and Chris Mathews, but I will watch when they have a person that they are interviewing that I want to hear from. Ironically, Fox News has one of my favorite moderators, Chris Wallace. If anyone that thinks Fox hires nothing but a bunch of right wing stooges, they need to watch a program with Wallace as a moderator.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree. That's why I'll listen to the same story on multiple channels or read it from multiple sources. The problem is that there's too many people that won't take the time or simply don't want to hear another POV as it doesn't align with their core beliefs. It's a problem that affects both sides of the political spectrum and is IMO one of the causes for this sharp political divide that exists today.

I generally try to stay away from the op-ed guys like Sean Hannity and Chris Mathews, but I will watch when they have a person that they are interviewing that I want to hear from. Ironically, Fox News has one of my favorite moderators, Chris Wallace. If anyone that thinks Fox hires nothing but a bunch of right wing stooges, they need to watch a program with Wallace as a moderator.

Riverdog

What do you think of this? What would you do if you were required to take this training? Do you think this is real? It's causing the Pro-Trump folks to go into a tizzy. I can't imagine a government requiring this, but I could see someone like that Sawant woman trying some radical crap like this.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/madelinepeltzer/2020/07/08/seattle-city-council-outlines-ways-to-undo-your-whiteness-n2572128

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-chop-segregated-training-session-white-supremacy-physical-safety

[I-5]

Shouldn't we assume every member of this forum gets their news from multiple sources, both right and left? Even though we all have our own biases, I always look for a diversity of angles to find my angle.

I just searched the terms 'city of seattle' and 'diversity' training' on Google, and they all aluded to the story you mentioned, but didn't see any search results that weren't right wing news sources. What does that mean?

[Aseahawkfan]

Shouldn't we assume every member of this forum gets their news from multiple sources, both right and left? Even though we all have our own biases, I always look for a diversity of angles to find my angle.

I just searched the terms 'city of seattle' and 'diversity' training' on Google, and they all aluded to the story you mentioned, but didn't see any search results that weren't right wing news sources. What does that mean?

Exactly why I question it's veracity. No. I wouldn't assume people get their news from both sources.

C-bob for example probably avoids Fox News which he has called "Faux News" for the longest time, meaning he has been using the equivalent of "Fake News" for Fox News longer than Trump.

I'm not sure what sources people look at or their ability to analyze the information they are provided for logical consistency, accuracy, and truth. It would seem to me that if people were good at information analysis, then we wouldn't be where we're at right now.

[I-5]

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I was talking about posters in this forum using a diversity of news sources. I wasn’t talking about the general public. I’m sure your assumption about Bob is wrong, too. Even though I don’t agree much with ID, I think he’s a fair minded guy and checks multiple news sources as well. I hate Faux News, but I check it frequently so that I know how both sides spin every story.

[Aseahawkfan]

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I was talking about posters in this forum using a diversity of news sources. I wasn’t talking about the general public. I’m sure your assumption about Bob is wrong, too. Even though I don’t agree much with ID, I think he’s a fair minded guy and checks multiple news sources as well. I hate Faux News, but I check it frequently so that I know how both sides spin every story.

Most post the consistent posters do yes. You think C-bob watches Fox News? That would be surprising. He doesn't seem to like them too much. I can see why. They have a lot of really terrible shows and commentary. Just smarmy conservatives acting like they know what is best. Tiresome. Much like CNN. I can't stand these Op-Ed guys. Though John Oliver is at least funny a lot of the time.

[I-5]

I wouldn’t assume either way. I’m saying that I hate Faux news, but I still check in to see what they’re saying from to time...even Tucker, who is twice as annoying as Hannity. I find Cuomo just annoying as the Faux guys, too. I miss shows like the McNeil Lehrer News Hour.

[RiverDog]

Shouldn't we assume every member of this forum gets their news from multiple sources, both right and left? Even though we all have our own biases, I always look for a diversity of angles to find my angle.

I don't think we can assume that at all. Idahawkman told us that swore off watching CNN and other main stream media sources long ago and praised the accuracy of the reporting of Fox News. He often times was critical of my being a stooge of the MSM. Of course, I don't know what he considers as the MSM (IMO Fox News is part of the 'mainstream'), but the impression I got is that he derives most of his information from Fox or other conservative sources. He never posted a link from any of the left leaning sources.

I just searched the terms 'city of seattle' and 'diversity' training' on Google, and they all aluded to the story you mentioned, but didn't see any search results that weren't right wing news sources. What does that mean?

I don't think that KOMO News is right wing. The sessions were controversial because they separated participants and altered the content based on their race, which IMO is outrageous. Here's a clip from the article that highlights the problems with this approach:

“Honestly, the content is pretty typical of what I see in these types of trainings,” said Borysenko, who is an organizational psychologist and asks people on social media to send her information about racial bias sessions they have participated in. “I do think it’s particularly egregious for a government organization to be doing it in this fashion. Seattle was overt in separating (its) trainings by race.”

“What really disturbed me was both that they are administrating these training in a race segregated manner (and) also the content of the training,” he said.

Borysenko suggests that the city should rethink the separation approach.

“It worries me if segregation is going to become the new norm as led by the city of Seattle,” she said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/segre ... r-BB16yCUd

[RiverDog]

Riverdog

What do you think of this? What would you do if you were required to take this training? Do you think this is real? It's causing the Pro-Trump folks to go into a tizzy. I can't imagine a government requiring this, but I could see someone like that Sawant woman trying some radical crap like this.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/madelinepeltzer/2020/07/08/seattle-city-council-outlines-ways-to-undo-your-whiteness-n2572128

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-chop-segregated-training-session-white-supremacy-physical-safety

The Town Hall source said that they obtained information on the content of the sessions via the Freedom of Information act, so it should be easy to verify, and they named their source and established his credentials. Additionally, Fox News, which may not be the most objective of sources and they'll certainly put their own spin on it, but none of the major news organizations are going to run a story without vetting it, They don't want to end up with egg on their faces if the story was fabricated, so I'm satisfied with the accuracy of what was quoted. As far as what I would do, I'd attend and consider what was being presented, but I wouldn't be happy about having to be separated by my race and shown content that was different from others.

I'd have to see the full content of the curriculum to get a fair understand of these training sessions, but if the clips from the links you posted are typical of the type of content that's being presented in these sessions, IMO it's outrageous. Here's an example:

"We'll examine our complicity in the system of white supremacy—how we internalize and reinforce it—and begin to cultivate practices that enable us to interrupt racism in ways that are accountable to Black, Indigenous, People of Color (BIPOC) folks within our community, including our friends and colleagues at the City,"

That's a very subjective statement unsupported by any factual information that is based on nothing but the personal experiences/opinion of the individual that wrote it. One should never assume that our personal thoughts and experiences are typical of anyone but our own. How in the hell do they know what I internalize? Do they think that I was born into a culture of white supremacy simply due to the color of my skin? Suppose a white person was adapted at birth and raised by a black couple. Would they assume that they, too, are complicit in the white supremacy system? It's complete and utter nonsense, which has unfortunately has become the norm for the same City of Seattle that once spent $5 million on toilets for the homeless.

Additionally, I fail to see why it would be necessary to separate the participants by race. All that does is reinforce the differences between us when we should be looking for commonalities. If you're multi racial like my nephews are, why should you be forced to declare yourself as one race or another? It probably wouldn't affect the thinking of mature adults, but if this BS trickles into the public school system, it could be extremely damaging to start pigeon holing students into different groups and reinforcing the idea that they're different from others.

[NorthHawk]

It's Fox news or rather it's Fox writers, so I consider the source.
Those things may very well be in the so called training sessions, but without context they don't mean much and can be slanted in a number of ways.
The way the article reads, it sounds like communist re-education where they want to tear down one group instead of lifting the others up.

[RiverDog]

It's Fox news or rather it's Fox writers, so I consider the source. Those things may very well be in the so called training sessions, but without context they don't mean much and can be slanted in a number of ways.

They got their information through a public records search, so I doubt that the quoted statements are fabricated. If it's false, it would be pretty easy to debunk as all you'd have to do is to do your own records search.

This statement: We'll examine our complicity in the system of white supremacy—how we internalize and reinforce it. cannot be slanted or spun. If you're separating people by skin color and read that statement to them, you are pre-judging the motivations of every participant by telling them that they have a complicity in the system of white supremacy. It's a racist statement, the exact same thought process that we've been trying to drive out of our society for decades. They are not eliminating racism, they are displacing it from one group to another.

The way the article reads, it sounds like communist re-education where they want to tear down one group instead of lifting the others up.

Good analogy. Statements like those quoted in the article could cause more harm than good if you start telling people that for no other reason than the color of your skin that you are born with an inherent superiority complex that must be purged.

[Aseahawkfan]

The Town Hall source said that they obtained information on the content of the sessions via the Freedom of Information act, so it should be easy to verify, and they named their source and established his credentials. Additionally, Fox News, which may not be the most objective of sources and they'll certainly put their own spin on it, but none of the major news organizations are going to run a story without vetting it, They don't want to end up with egg on their faces if the story was fabricated, so I'm satisfied with the accuracy of what was quoted. As far as what I would do, I'd attend and consider what was being presented, but I wouldn't be happy about having to be separated by my race and shown content that was different from others.

I'd have to see the full content of the curriculum to get a fair understand of these training sessions, but if the clips from the links you posted are typical of the type of content that's being presented in these sessions, IMO it's outrageous. Here's an example:

"We'll examine our complicity in the system of white supremacy—how we internalize and reinforce it—and begin to cultivate practices that enable us to interrupt racism in ways that are accountable to Black, Indigenous, People of Color (BIPOC) folks within our community, including our friends and colleagues at the City,"

That's a very subjective statement unsupported by any factual information that is based on nothing but the personal experiences/opinion of the individual that wrote it. One should never assume that our personal thoughts and experiences are typical of anyone but our own. How in the hell do they know what I internalize? Do they think that I was born into a culture of white supremacy simply due to the color of my skin? Suppose a white person was adapted at birth and raised by a black couple. Would they assume that they, too, are complicit in the white supremacy system? It's complete and utter nonsense, which has unfortunately has become the norm for the same City of Seattle that once spent $5 million on toilets for the homeless.

Additionally, I fail to see why it would be necessary to separate the participants by race. All that does is reinforce the differences between us when we should be looking for commonalities. If you're multi racial like my nephews are, why should you be forced to declare yourself as one race or another? It probably wouldn't affect the thinking of mature adults, but if this BS trickles into the public school system, it could be extremely damaging to start pigeon holing students into different groups and reinforcing the idea that they're different from others.

I'm all for people becoming more aware of history and calling out racists, but this is some serious trash. I'd leave.

I don't get it. Is the desire equality or revenge? You can't go around blaming all people of European descent like they were all from some meta-culture that taught them the same thing or were equally involved in slavery of the past. That's just a completely falsehood. It's like I told you. Some of these folks aren't concerned with accurate history. They just want to broad brush every person of European ancestry as part of the same group and the same crimes whether or not that is proven or provable.

How can I blame them when American society as a whole teaches everyone to paint each other with a broad brush? The idea of race needs to be destroyed. It's inaccurate, built for subjugation, and will not lead to an egalitarian society. Until we pursue accurate cultural history not based on this ridiculous, shallow designation based on skin color, society will never get past this.

The skin color association has to die first because it is an impediment to equality and accurate history. Not to mention it makes people into these shallow, artificial cariacatures that don't even have a cultural, geographical, or historical basis. There is no nation known as black or white, never was, never will be. Skin color is skin color, not any more relevant to culture or history than hair color. Those designations were created to divide and conquer. That is all they are being used for even to this day.

I have to tune out of all this crap. Our politicians have lost their way. Our corporations bend over backwards for every little issue and exert greater control over us than our government. Terrible environment to live in. Just furthered exacerbated by these COVID19 restrictions making America feel not very free at the moment.

[RiverDog]

I'm all for people becoming more aware of history and calling out racists, but this is some serious trash. I'd leave.

I don't get it. Is the desire equality or revenge? You can't go around blaming all people of European descent like they were all from some meta-culture that taught them the same thing or were equally involved in slavery of the past. That's just a completely falsehood. It's like I told you. Some of these folks aren't concerned with accurate history. They just want to broad brush every person of European ancestry as part of the same group and the same crimes whether or not that is proven or provable.

How can I blame them when American society as a whole teaches everyone to paint each other with a broad brush? The idea of race needs to be destroyed. It's inaccurate, built for subjugation, and will not lead to an egalitarian society. Until we pursue accurate cultural history not based on this ridiculous, shallow designation based on skin color, society will never get past this.

The skin color association has to die first because it is an impediment to equality and accurate history. Not to mention it makes people into these shallow, artificial cariacatures that don't even have a cultural, geographical, or historical basis. There is no nation known as black or white, never was, never will be. Skin color is skin color, not any more relevant to culture or history than hair color. Those designations were created to divide and conquer. That is all they are being used for even to this day.

I have to tune out of all this crap. Our politicians have lost their way. Our corporations bend over backwards for every little issue and exert greater control over us than our government. Terrible environment to live in. Just furthered exacerbated by these COVID19 restrictions making America feel not very free at the moment.

I agree with most of what you've said.

This type of crap plays right into the hands of race baiters like Donald Trump. It gives him tangible evidence of a culture war that he's counting on to motivate his base and turn out in the fall election. The message it sends to whites, especially those over 50 white males w/o a college education, ie Trump's base, people that already perceive themselves, either rightly or wrongly, as being victims of reverse discrimination, is that they should be ashamed of their heritage and that they need to purge out their whiteness before they can become acceptable members of a diverse community. It is by definition a very divisive policy they've embarked on.

North Hawk said that he had to see it in context before passing judgement, but I disagree. The wording in the introductory statement is not in the least bit vague and can't be interpreted in multiple ways. Talking heads don't even have to put their spin on it in order for it to have an impact. Just read the paragraph aloud and let it speak for itself.

I-5 was wondering why it was just the right wing news sources that were reporting on it. It's because the story can't be spun and is indefensible. There's no way that the liberal side of the spectrum, the CNN's, MSNBC's, et al, can justify or minimize what the City of Seattle is doing so they won't report on it unless they are forced to if it gets far enough into open water, such as Trump stumbling onto it and tweeting it, to where they can't ignore it. If the shoe were on the other foot, Fox News would do the exact same thing: Ignore it and maybe it will go away. This is actually is a great example as to why we need to get our news from a wide spectrum of sources. If all you did was watch CNN and read the Washington Post, you'd never hear about it.

The liberal press remaining as silent as a church mouse supports the authenticity of the subject matter. If it were false, they'd be talking about it, running their fact checks and screaming their bloody heads off over the right perpetuating fake news.

But I do disagree with your last paragraph. This isn't corporate America exerting more control over us. This is a city government run by elected officials, extremely liberal left wing officials, that is responsible for this crap. I can speak for my former employer and honestly say that they would NEVER divide employees into groups based on race for ANYTHING, even if it were something as benign as a softball game.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with most of what you've said.

This type of crap plays right into the hands of race baiters like Donald Trump. It gives him tangible evidence of a culture war that he's counting on to motivate his base and turn out in the fall election. The message it sends to whites, especially those over 50 white males w/o a college education, ie Trump's base, people that already perceive themselves, either rightly or wrongly, as being victims of reverse discrimination, is that they should be ashamed of their heritage and that they need to purge out their whiteness before they can become acceptable members of a diverse community. It is by definition a very divisive policy they've embarked on.

North Hawk said that he had to see it in context before passing judgement, but I disagree. The wording in the introductory statement is not in the least bit vague and can't be interpreted in multiple ways. Talking heads don't even have to put their spin on it in order for it to have an impact. Just read the paragraph aloud and let it speak for itself.

I-5 was wondering why it was just the right wing news sources that were reporting on it. It's because the story can't be spun and is indefensible. There's no way that the liberal side of the spectrum, the CNN's, MSNBC's, et al, can justify or minimize what the City of Seattle is doing so they won't report on it unless they are forced to if it gets far enough into open water, such as Trump stumbling onto it and tweeting it, to where they can't ignore it. If the shoe were on the other foot, Fox News would do the exact same thing: Ignore it and maybe it will go away. This is actually is a great example as to why we need to get our news from a wide spectrum of sources. If all you did was watch CNN and read the Washington Post, you'd never hear about it.

The liberal press remaining as silent as a church mouse supports the authenticity of the subject matter. If it were false, they'd be talking about it, running their fact checks and screaming their bloody heads off over the right perpetuating fake news.

But I do disagree with your last paragraph. This isn't corporate America exerting more control over us. This is a city government run by elected officials, extremely liberal left wing officials, that is responsible for this crap. I can speak for my former employer and honestly say that they would NEVER divide employees into groups based on race for ANYTHING, even if it were something as benign as a softball game.

In this instance it is government. But overall it is corporate America bending over backward for these movements that is providing them a huge push. Even the Redskins name change as much as I agree with is being effectively pushed by corporate sponsors removing support from the team. All the firings and removal of sponsorship from anyone saying anything against what the mob wants is punished financially by a corporate paradigm that does not want any problems or disruptions to their personal income streams. These corps would even sell us out to China to keep their money flowing. They consider loyalty to their corporate brands more important than the nation in which they reside or the values they hold dear. Corporations are a huge part of moral relatavism as they prioritize corporate profits over culture or right and wrong viewing oppressive regimes as just a different culture and way of doing business they have to adapt to. They are currently more dangerous than our government because their loyalties do not lie with any philosophy other than the protection of their brand and the maximization of their profits.

I believe the current corporate structure is more dangerous to personal freedom at this moment than our government.

[RiverDog]

In this instance it is government. But overall it is corporate America bending over backward for these movements that is providing them a huge push. Even the Redskins name change as much as I agree with is being effectively pushed by corporate sponsors removing support from the team. All the firings and removal of sponsorship from anyone saying anything against what the mob wants is punished financially by a corporate paradigm that does not want any problems or disruptions to their personal income streams. These corps would even sell us out to China to keep their money flowing. They consider loyalty to their corporate brands more important than the nation in which they reside or the values they hold dear. Corporations are a huge part of moral relatavism as they prioritize corporate profits over culture or right and wrong viewing oppressive regimes as just a different culture and way of doing business they have to adapt to. They are currently more dangerous than our government because their loyalties do not lie with any philosophy other than the protection of their brand and the maximization of their profits.

I believe the current corporate structure is more dangerous to personal freedom at this moment than our government.

Corporate America's loyalties lay with their customers. If customers don't want to buy goods from China, they can boycott companies that sell merchandise made in China. This happened back in 2001 when a Chinese fighter plane crashed into the nose of one of our spy planes and was forced down in China. There were boycotts of WalMart, of which 80% of their goods were made in China, demanding the release of the crew. The dollar rules, and consumers control the dollars.

The problem is that the American public is so stupid, uncaring, and uninformed that most do not realize the collective power they have to shape corporate America.

[c_hawkbob]

Corporate America's loyalties lay with their customers? You've got to be kidding me! "Customers" are only a consideration at all as it pertains to keeping them coming back, their loyalties are entirely to their shareholders and the bottom line.

[RiverDog]

Corporate America's loyalties lay with their customers? You've got to be kidding me! "Customers" are only a consideration at all as it pertains to keeping them coming back, their loyalties are entirely to their shareholders and the bottom line.

No kidding at all, my friend. No customers, no sales. No sales, no revenue. No revenue, no profit.

Corporations are market driven, and the primary driver in any market is the consumer (customer). They'll crawl through the hubs of hell to keep their customer base. It's only the passivity and ignorance of the customer that allows some corporations to forget who it is that butters their bread.

And speaking of stockholders, just who do you think they are? Do you have a pension? Maybe a 401K? A mutual fund? Perhaps a life insurance policy? Take a look at those quarterly reports they fill up our mailboxes with. Fact is that the vast majority of the equity market is instutionalized, so when you rail about these unGodly sock holders, you're talking about every day Americans.

[I-5]

"Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very ... there won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation."

Direct quote from our Dear Leader. What does he mean?

[RiverDog]

"Get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very ... there won't be a transfer, frankly. There'll be a continuation."

Direct quote from our Dear Leader. What does he mean?

Trump talking out of his arse again.

He was probably trying to think of something to say about the mail in ballots issue, couldn't come up with anything intelligent, then in mid sentence, rejected the premise by indicating that he was going to win the election ie no transfer of power.

Or at least that's one possibility. Who knows what goes on in that man's mind.

[c_hawkbob]

Who knows what goes on in that man's mind.

"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal, Doctor Donald J Trump, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, and Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea" ... ad nauseam.

[RiverDog]

Who knows what goes on in that man's mind.

"His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal, Doctor Donald J Trump, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, and Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea" ... ad nauseam.

In other words, he's a megalomaniac.

[I-5]

The question is, how much power does a megalomaniac have in our republic? He is actively looking for ways to insure he wins, or not lose, to put it another way.

If he loses, he also becomes a regular citizen with the Southern District of New York setting a welcome mat for him.

[c_hawkbob]

The question is, how much power does a megalomaniac have in our republic? He is actively looking for ways to insure he wins, or not lose, to put it another way.

If he loses, he also becomes a regular citizen with the Southern District of New York setting a welcome mat for him.

He'll probably angle for a pardon as incentive for him leave quietly and not throw the country into a civil war.

[RiverDog]

The question is, how much power does a megalomaniac have in our republic? He is actively looking for ways to insure he wins, or not lose, to put it another way.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you asking if Trump could retain power even if he loses the election? Do you think he can use his power to undermine the election?

First of all, the federal government does not control voting. That's left up to the states. Trump could sue, as happened in Florida in 2000 when their voting law was declared unconstitutional because it treated some voters differently than others, violating the equal protection clause. He'd have a long road to hoe if he chooses to contest the authenticity or security of mail in ballots, which seems to be his strategy. It would be up to him to produce evidence.

There's not much Trump can physically do to retain power if he loses the election. He would not control the military. As General Mattis pointed out, everyone in the military's first sworn obligation is to defend the Constitution, not the Commander-in Chief. Additionally, Trump is getting a lot of push back from R's about his comments regarding a peaceful transfer of power in the event he loses in November, including Mitch McConnell, Liz Cheney, Richard Shelby, and many more.

If he loses by just a state or two, it could be interesting. I personally think he's going to lose quite big, perhaps by as much as 150 electoral votes. But I was wrong on the last election, so what do I know.

If he loses, he also becomes a regular citizen with the Southern District of New York setting a welcome mat for him.

If Trump loses, I could care less what happens to him after he leaves office. You're jumping on Hawktalk's bandwagon, wanting to see him tarred and feathered, continue the hate and widen the divide between right and left. I just want him out, period. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a President Biden giving him a pardon as one of his first acts when he takes office. It would be a great gesture towards burying the hatchet and healing the country.

[RiverDog]

The question is, how much power does a megalomaniac have in our republic? He is actively looking for ways to insure he wins, or not lose, to put it another way.

If he loses, he also becomes a regular citizen with the Southern District of New York setting a welcome mat for him.

He'll probably angle for a pardon as incentive for him leave quietly and not throw the country into a civil war.

Brilliant minds think alike! I was thinking about the possibility of a pardon, too.

But I'm actually serious. I'm tired of this hate and divisiveness. Dragging Trump through an endless parade of court appearances and sensational trials would keep him in the front page of the news and give him martyr status with his supporters. A pardon by President Biden would go a long way in healing the divide as a good faith gesture and deny him the publicity he so craves.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm still wondering if he believes what he says or just does it to wind people up and get them yapping. I imagine we'll find out in November.

Trump can't go too long without having people talking about him. His ego demands the attention.

In the end, if he loses I think he'll make a deal to shut up and move on to something else. He gains nothing by fighting to stay in office or any of that. The Republicans don't either.

[I-5]

“If he loses”

That’s the part he’s trying to create the impression (in no one’s mind but his true believers), the idea that he could only ‘lose’ by fraud. Hence, the ‘we’ll see’ attitude when asked about the results, as if he’s the arbiter of what’s fair. I’m not too worried, because I don’t think even the most sycophantic senator would go along with his protests of not allowing for a smooth transfer of power...with the possible exception of Tom Cotton.

In no scenario do I believe he would shut his yap, win or lose, pardon or no pardon. Now that he has had a taste of the attention he has always craved, does anyone believe he would stay out of the headlines as an ex-POTUS?

[Sports Hernia]

Trump cannot be pardoned federally for state charges. The only one that can pardon state charges is the governor of said state. State of NY has the goods on him, Pence won’t be able to save him and the NY state gov is a Democrat they hates Trump. He’s in deep doo when he gets beat badly at the ballot box in November. He may have to call up his buddy vlad to see if there is a spare bedroom in the Kremlin, to avoid prison time in New York.

[RiverDog]

“If he loses”

That’s the part he’s trying to create the impression (in no one’s mind but his true believers), the idea that he could only ‘lose’ by fraud. Hence, the ‘we’ll see’ attitude when asked about the results, as if he’s the arbiter of what’s fair. I’m not too worried, because I don’t think even the most sycophantic senator would go along with his protests of not allowing for a smooth transfer of power...with the possible exception of Tom Cotton.

In no scenario do I believe he would shut his yap, win or lose, pardon or no pardon. Now that he has had a taste of the attention he has always craved, does anyone believe he would stay out of the headlines as an ex-POTUS?

And to my knowledge, no Senator has said that there will be anything other than a peaceful transition. Even his favorite lap dogs McConnell and Graham have said that the results of Nov. 3rd will be honored.

I'm not saying that Trump will shut his yap. What a pardon does is take him off the front pages and puts him on a perpetual back 9 of the golf course. You put him on trial and it will make the OJ Simpson trial look like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and the BLM protests look like Christmas carolers.

[c_hawkbob]

Trump cannot be pardoned federally for state charges. The only one that can pardon state charges is the governor of said state. State of NY has the goods on him, Pence won’t be able to save him and the NY state gov is a Democrat they hates Trump. He’s in deep doo when he gets beat badly at the ballot box in November. He may have to call up his buddy vlad to see if there is a spare bedroom in the Kremlin, to avoid prison time in New York.

Good point. I like it!

I can see pardoning him for all the horrible things he's done as President for "the good of the country" but having been president for the past 4 years shouldn't make him immune from prosecution for all the crap he's done for all the years he wasn't President.

[RiverDog]

Trump cannot be pardoned federally for state charges. The only one that can pardon state charges is the governor of said state. State of NY has the goods on him, Pence won’t be able to save him and the NY state gov is a Democrat they hates Trump. He’s in deep doo when he gets beat badly at the ballot box in November. He may have to call up his buddy vlad to see if there is a spare bedroom in the Kremlin, to avoid prison time in New York.

That is true, but there are federal charges, too. SDNY is a federal court run by federal prosecutors. If Trump receives a pardon from a Democratic POTUS, would put a lot of pressure on Gov. Cuomo to follow suit.

[Hawktawk]

https://time.com/5892948/trump-former-o ... speak-out/
Those who will vote for Trump will accept that all these good men who know whats up and the many hundreds of other career public servants who have spoken in unison of the mans unfitness for the job are the "deep state". They will justify crippling the postal service with Trump's hand picked hatchet man who donated 1.5 million directly to his campaign. They are OK with 204 K dead people right now. Probably 250 K by election day.(polls show 60% of *republicans* find the death toll "acceptable") They are OK with comments like "It affects only old people, sick people, people with other problems. It affects almost nobody"about a pandemic that affects the whole world.

It was the zillionth disqualifying statement this evil mentally unstable man has made but the slavish deplorables(she was right but stupid to say it out loud) who not only support but it's become clear they celebrate the greatest threat to american democracy since the civil war. They like the racism. They like the bigotry, the "tough talk" which is just lies and bluster and denigration of the office. They dont care that Russia is once again meddling in our american elections if it means four more years of their beloved fascist icon.

Its a truly frightening scenario for an actual shooting war with these triggered trumpanzees. They think packing heavy armor into statehouses is cool, that wearing a mask to protect others is an attack on their freedom but they are following after a racist, fascist madman who is sowing seeds of discord, doubt on our very electoral process, threatening to not leave the office peacefully.

These are the actions of a despotic strongman. In the America I grew up in a guy like this would be at 10% support. Actually he'd have been impeached and removed years ago and likely be in prison by now. Right now I fear this may come down to the military and I've read reports there are fears of it at the pentagon https://dnyuz.com/2020/09/25/at-pentago ... on-unrest/.

Id love to have a conversation with Burrton and see if he still thinks I'm a total loon for opposing this man so forcefully from day one after 57 years as a staunch republican conservative.I was a prophet. I was more correct than I ever thought I might be unfortunately . I am very fearful of what's ahead. We are living in an orwellian time.

[c_hawkbob]

+1. Every word.

[RiverDog]

https://time.com/5892948/trump-former-officials-speak-out/
Those who will vote for Trump will accept that all these good men who know whats up and the many hundreds of other career public servants who have spoken in unison of the mans unfitness for the job are the "deep state". They will justify crippling the postal service with Trump's hand picked hatchet man who donated 1.5 million directly to his campaign. They are OK with 204 K dead people right now. Probably 250 K by election day.(polls show 60% of *republicans* find the death toll "acceptable") They are OK with comments like "It affects only old people, sick people, people with other problems. It affects almost nobody"about a pandemic that affects the whole world.

It was the zillionth disqualifying statement this evil mentally unstable man has made but the slavish deplorables(she was right but stupid to say it out loud) who not only support but it's become clear they celebrate the greatest threat to american democracy since the civil war. They like the racism. They like the bigotry, the "tough talk" which is just lies and bluster and denigration of the office. They dont care that Russia is once again meddling in our american elections if it means four more years of their beloved fascist icon.

Its a truly frightening scenario for an actual shooting war with these triggered trumpanzees. They think packing heavy armor into statehouses is cool, that wearing a mask to protect others is an attack on their freedom but they are following after a racist, fascist madman who is sowing seeds of discord, doubt on our very electoral process, threatening to not leave the office peacefully.

These are the actions of a despotic strongman. In the America I grew up in a guy like this would be at 10% support. Actually he'd have been impeached and removed years ago and likely be in prison by now. Right now I fear this may come down to the military and I've read reports there are fears of it at the pentagon https://dnyuz.com/2020/09/25/at-pentago ... on-unrest/.

Id love to have a conversation with Burrton and see if he still thinks I'm a total loon for opposing this man so forcefully from day one after 57 years as a staunch republican conservative.I was a prophet. I was more correct than I ever thought I might be unfortunately . I am very fearful of what's ahead. We are living in an orwellian time.

Although I'm not going to join you in your over the top rhetoric or accept your premise that every Trump voter is essentially possessed by the Devil, I agree in principle with most of what you've said.

But in relation to your fears of the military having to intervene, here's a comment from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that hopefully alleviates some of your fears:

“I foresee no role for the U.S armed forces in this process,” Gen. Mark Milley stated in written responses released Friday to questions from two Democrats on the House Armed Services Committee.

“In the event of a dispute over some aspect of the elections, by law U.S. courts and the U.S. Congress are required to resolve any disputes, not the U.S. military ... We will not turn our backs on the Constitution of the United States.”

Asked if the military would refuse an order from the president if Trump was attempting to use military action for political gain rather than for national security, Milley responded: “I will not follow an unlawful order.”

Like I said earlier, every person that has entered the military has a sworn duty to uphold the Constitution, and as numerous military tribunals have shown, military officers and enlisted personnel are legally and morally obligated NOT to follow an illegal order, even one from the Commander-in-Chief.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/29/top-us- ... -vote.html

Additionally, any resistance to a peaceful transition would have to include the cooperation of a large number of cabinet members. Even William Barr wouldn't go to that extreme so as to resist a peaceful transition. None of them are going to take a bullet for Trump.

[NorthHawk]

Is history repeating (or rhyming)?
Here is an article about the 1876 election with some interesting parallels.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/a-di ... ket-newtab

[RiverDog]

Is history repeating (or rhyming)?
Here is an article about the 1876 election with some interesting parallels.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/a-di ... ket-newtab

“Let’s imagine that the Republicans recognize Biden, withdraw their claim that, say, Biden is ahead by 7m popular votes but the electoral college is disputed. In exchange for that, Biden has to promise to do X, Y and Z. He’s got to promise to build the border wall to completion. He’s got to promise to make Russia the 51st state. Whatever it is Trump wants.

That's preposterous! There is zero chance of something like that happening. If the electoral college is disputed, it will be resolved within the state or states in question. If there is a legal issue involved in the counting of votes, such as there was in Florida in 2000, it will end up in the Supreme Court. The Republicans/Trump would have no negotiating position.

The most likely case for a disputed election would be questions about the security of the elections. The other day in PA, they found a handful of ballots, 9 in all, of which 7 were cast for Trump, in the garbage. The FBI has been called in to investigate.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/fbi-inves ... a-garbage/

If the election is going to be disputed, it's likely to be over something like this, but it would have to be on a much larger scale.

[NorthHawk]

The guys is an accomplished historian, so he might have some insight - but what do I know?

I think if Trump loses, he will try to use the courts that he's stacked to extend his reign as long as possible
and possibly steal the election. This could get real ugly for a long time.

[RiverDog]

The guys is an accomplished historian, so he might have some insight - but what do I know?

I'm not an accomplished historian, either, but he'd have to explain to me how that would work in the Constitution. Each state controls the delegates it sends to the Electoral College, so at least on a national level, the Republicans would not be able to negotiate from a position of power. I suppose there could be some scenario where the vote in the electoral college is so close that one or two faithless electors could do something to sway the result, but odds of getting the electoral math to work out so as to put the election to within 1 or 2 electoral votes in itself has a very low probability.

I think if Trump loses, he will try to use the courts that he's stacked to extend his reign as long as possible and possibly steal the election. This could get real ugly for a long time.

Outside of winning the election outright, that's clearly what Trump is hoping for as his Plan B, but he might be in for a rude awaking. The two Trump appointees are far from being in his pocket. For example, both Kavanaugh and Gorsch ruled against him in his effort to keep from handing over his personal financial documents to a grand jury. Personally, I have a lot of confidence in the Supreme Court, in particular the Chief Justice, to do the right thing.

And I think it unlikely that a controversy would last more than 6 weeks. The electoral college is required by law to vote on the Monday after the 2nd Wednesday in December, or in this case, Monday, December 14th. That's why there was such a rush in 2000 to get Florida's election mess resolved, ie prior to the electoral college meeting. Here's a timeline on how it all plays out:

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-the ... ine-2020-8

Trump is doing what Trump does best: He's stirring the pot. I actually think he enjoys seeing his opponents go into hysterics over something he says or tweets.

[Aseahawkfan]

Donald Trump is 74 years old. It don't matter at this point. He has enough money and power to fight this in the courts endlessly until he passes.

You all thinking Trump's going to do any time or not escape are living in a dreamworld. It should be obvious to anyone watching over the years that wealthy and powerful people run by a different set of rules around the world.