ANTIFA

[c_hawkbob]

Seems that it's not what you probably thought it was:

"Records for “antifa.com” in the domain name database Whoisology.com show the site was registered in the Russian Federation from 2013 through last July. Starting last November, the site’s registration was moved to Panama, The website has always been anonymously registered and its owners could not be reached for comment."

Be careful what you read and believe. Whether for or against, you could just be reacting to some Russian stirring the pot here in America to keep us hating each other.

I wonder what other radical bastions (on either side) are constructs of off shore meddling

[Aseahawkfan]

I always question everything. I trust the media, the government, and people in general about as much I trust Donald Trump. Trust is over-rated. There is what you can prove and what I can verify that you prove. I'm not some uneducated lemming. I know how to read research. I know how economics, psychology, and a variety of other subjects work on a scientific level. I don't like being influenced by influencers or talking heads. You state your case, provide me with relevant information to support your case, and then I will verify that information, then I can see if it's a well-supported argument worth supporting.

Donald Trump's disdain for science is annoying.

[I-5]

I wonder what other radical bastions (on either side) are constructs of off shore meddling

Pizzagate comes to mind, but you’re right, you have to watch it no matter what side you’re on. I make a point of not sharing any post or news article that I haven’t verified from multiple resources that I respect, and even then I might not share it.

It was documented after the last election how 2 groups within the russian network created a rally event in Texas, using 2 opposing facebook groups that they created, and actually got people to attend.

But they don’t even need to go to those lengths. There are more than enough conspiracy theories floating around that all they have to do is amplify it to create chaos.

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/04/03/522503844/how-russian-twitter-bots-pumped-out-fake-news-during-the-2016-election

[RiverDog]

I never really believed in it. It's just a label used to describe an individual or group. It's an attempt to convince people that there is an armed, radical left in the same numbers and influence as are the neo Nazis and KKK on the far right. It's part of Trump's "many sides" argument.

[Aseahawkfan]

This meddling and propaganda has been happening for ages. I have no idea why we're suddenly focused on Russia doing it. If they took the time to investigate, they would find other nations interfering in our elections and such. China and Russia are the other two big dogs who do this and steal our technology all the time. We manipulate their nations too and steal talent from them as well. We have lots of local groups on the left and right who create lies about each other and exploit each other.

That's the game in a pluralistic political environment. It happens every election for ages to varying degrees. Not sure why people are focused on Trump other than the Democrats focused the whole Russia angle on Trump. I"m sure the Republicans will pay this back at some point by manufacturing similar charges on some Democratic presidential candidate when they get the chance. And I'm sure the Republicans will eat it up like they did the whole Lewinsky affair and the Clinton Chinese associations back in the 90s.

It's very naive for Americans not to realize that foreign nations interfere in our elections when we send billions of dollars in foreign aid world wide and these nations may lose money or power based on who takes office in America due to our vast worldwide political associations.

[I-5]

I have no idea why we're suddenly focused on Russia doing it.

I think we are all aware every superpower country does this. We're simply talking about Russia related to the US election system, since they are the ones spending the most effort doing it. For example, China is not (unless you have some information for us). Even though it's been happnening forever, social media is a relatively new medium, and Russia has been the benchmark in this medium thus far, above even what the US has been able to do.

[RiverDog]

This meddling and propaganda has been happening for ages. I have no idea why we're suddenly focused on Russia doing it. If they took the time to investigate, they would find other nations interfering in our elections and such. China and Russia are the other two big dogs who do this and steal our technology all the time. We manipulate their nations too and steal talent from them as well. We have lots of local groups on the left and right who create lies about each other and exploit each other.

I agree. Even allies like Israel have tampered with elections in the past. It doesn't make it right, though.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think we are all aware every superpower country does this. We're simply talking about Russia related to the US election system, since they are the ones spending the most effort doing it. For example, China is not (unless you have some information for us). Even though it's been happnening forever, social media is a relatively new medium, and Russia has been the benchmark in this medium thus far, above even what the US has been able to do.

Elements in the media and the government focused us on Russia and the election system. Which is another group vying for power and using what means they can to gain it. They built a loose association with Trump and Russia because they could. It didn't pay off for them with impeachment, but they sure gave it a great shot. Dumb as Dirt even gave them a gift with his Ukraine phone call. Anyone that hated Trump piled on believing it, just like the dumb Republicans and conservatives who bought into the birther scenario. There always seem to be someone willing to believe something on the loosest of evidence which is why we have people in 2020 believing in flat earth.

China is not? What do you mean? China is most definitely active on social media trying to influence elections. Do you really need the media and a government investigation to tell you when something is happening? Is that your only source?

You don't read stories about America banning Wechat or Huawei because of their ability to collect information on us and the like? Or the hacking stories by Chinese hackers? Or the technological piracy?

They are out there if you look, but the mainstream media and a particular government party only highlights these stories if it serves their purposes.

And the United States is very much interfering in other nations. Russia don't have the benchmark in the medium, which is they don't carry near the influence we have worldwide. Why do you think China and Russia control social media so heavily in their nations? Because we would mess them up if they allowed free information in their nations. Why are you always fooling yourself? We are some of the best players of this game across all media forms in the world. The only way these foreign nations stop us from influencing their elections is by banning us. America has put more people in power world wide or taken them out than most of the world combined that isn't from Europe. Russia and China have got nothing on America when it comes to playing world power games using social media or whatever medium they want to use.

Wake up to the reality of the country of your birth. The United Nations has no power without us for a very important reason.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree. Even allies like Israel have tampered with elections in the past. It doesn't make it right, though.

When did right have much to do with anything? A lot of things aren't right in the world and it don't seem to matter.

Donald Trump is president. Kshawa Sawant is still a member of the Seattle City Council after literally saying she wanted to forcibly socialize companies in Seattle. Neither of those things are right, but for some reason both of these clowns find followers to support them in America. Sickens me greatly.

[NorthHawk]

Seems that it's not what you probably thought it was:

"Records for “antifa.com” in the domain name database Whoisology.com show the site was registered in the Russian Federation from 2013 through last July. Starting last November, the site’s registration was moved to Panama, The website has always been anonymously registered and its owners could not be reached for comment."

Be careful what you read and believe. Whether for or against, you could just be reacting to some Russian stirring the pot here in America to keep us hating each other.

I wonder what other radical bastions (on either side) are constructs of off shore meddling

The real threat is QAnon. They are nutcase conspiracy theorists and some even are willing to take up arms to "fix" the conspiracies.

[Aseahawkfan]

The real threat is QAnon. They are nutcase conspiracy theorists and some even are willing to take up arms to "fix" the conspiracies.

There is only the constant movement of America's various groups and the competition between them. You must be young. When I was growing up it was the militias. Now it's QAnon eh? What about the Deep State believers? They're all over the place too. Too many loons to keep track of.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not young. I'm in my 60's and retired 6 years ago.
What's interesting about QAnon is it's ability to attract all types of odd characters from the benign tin foil hat types
to violent militia including those with mental and emotional issues. From what I've found out about it is it has the
possibility of doing great harm in any direction and an FBI office once designated them as domestic terrorist threat.

[c_hawkbob]

I've never even heard of QAnon ...

[NorthHawk]

I've never even heard of QAnon ...

Conspiracy believers for the most part. A Republican candidate in Georgia
was congratulated by Trump just recently and you often see his supporters
holding Q signs. She has been promoting some of the QAnon conspiracies.

[RiverDog]

I've never even heard of QAnon ...

Conspiracy believers for the most part. A Republican candidate in Georgia
was congratulated by Trump just recently and you often see his supporters
holding Q signs. She has been promoting some of the QAnon conspiracies.

They used to be referred to as the grassy knoll crowd.

[NorthHawk]

It's a lot more than the Grassy Knoll crowd.

Here's an article that touches onto a small part of it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ ... ket-newtab

[Aseahawkfan]

QAnon is the new group of loons spreading their stupid over the nation. Let's hope they don't have to do an Oklahoma City Bombing before someone decides to tear them down. Probably people that listen too much to Alex Jones and people like that.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's a lot more than the Grassy Knoll crowd.

Here's an article that touches onto a small part of it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ ... ket-newtab

Don't give too much credence to the loons or you'll head down a rabbit hole you don't want to go down. End up unhappy and worried about stupid things that plague the minds of loons that join QAnon.

[NorthHawk]

I don’t believe any of that crapola, but it fascinates me that others fall for it.
And some aren’t simpletons that can easily be dismissed, so it makes me
wonder how they could as you say ‘head down the rabbit hole’.
Maybe they get caught when in a vulnerable state. It’s the only thing that
makes sense to me.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don’t believe any of that crapola, but it fascinates me that others fall for it.
And some aren’t simpletons that can easily be dismissed, so it makes me
wonder how they could as you say ‘head down the rabbit hole’.
Maybe they get caught when in a vulnerable state. It’s the only thing that
makes sense to me.

My mother believes being a Colonel in the military makes you right about UFOs.

Idhawkman, a Green Beret and an intelligent guy in the tech field, believes in the Deep State, argued with us Trump never lies, and believes Trump to be one of the greatest presidents in history.

Unabomber had an IQ over 160.

Epstein was likely highly intelligent as well and a former teacher, used his intelligence and wealth to traffic in young girls.

Intelligence doesn't prevent crazy, it just seems to make crazy more dangerous in that, "What insane act of violence or crime will this person carry out in the name of their lunacy?" Luckily many get caught, but boy, there are a handful that really do some sick things like the serial killers or terrorists.

I wish humans weren't so crazy. Given there are 7 billion of us, that's a lot of ticking time bombs that go off here and there in terrible ways. I'm sure QAnon is feeding the crazies.

Heck, after you mentioned it some person ready a QAnon story about Hilary Clinton eating babies and leading the socialist Democrats who are actually ruled by a Satanic Cabal of cannibals. The person saw it on the internet with a video Hilary eating a child that was convincing enough to make the person believe it. Some people are insane.

Even if dangerous insanity is .000001% of humans, that's still a lot of dangerous crazy.

[RiverDog]

Idhawkman, a Green Beret and an intelligent guy in the tech field, believes in the Deep State, argued with us Trump never lies, and believes Trump to be one of the greatest presidents in history.

Idahawkman is one of the most interesting characters I've come across. I've met him personally and found him to be a great guy, and I still would jump at the opportunity to meet up with him again. But I honestly can't understand how he arrives at some of his positions. I once asked him if there was anything he disagreed with Trump on, and he replied that he disagreed with him over the Dreamers, the offspring of illegal immigrants that migrated here with their parents as children. He wanted to round them up, re-educate them, then deport them to their country of origin. He was willing to do that to a person that hasn't so much as been accused of spitting on the sidewalk. That's getting pretty close to dangerous crazy.

But I still consider him a friend and wish he'd come back in here and debate the issues with us. I've learned a lot from him.

[Aseahawkfan]

Idahawkman is one of the most interesting characters I've come across. I've met him personally and found him to be a great guy, and I still would jump at the opportunity to meet up with him again. But I honestly can't understand how he arrives at some of his positions. I once asked him if there was anything he disagreed with Trump on, and he replied that he disagreed with him over the Dreamers, the offspring of illegal immigrants that migrated here with their parents as children. He wanted to round them up, re-educate them, then deport them to their country of origin. He was willing to do that to a person that hasn't so much as been accused of spitting on the sidewalk. That's getting pretty close to dangerous crazy.

But I still consider him a friend and wish he'd come back in here and debate the issues with us. I've learned a lot from him.

That's why I don't worry about people too much. I don't hold grudges. I don't dislike or hate people over politics or much else. Not worth my time. Most people you meet in person are good enough to hang out with for conversation now and again.

This whole forum is decidedly anti-Trump. No use for IDhawkman to hang out in a forum where he is the sole pro-Trump voice. I'm about the closest to a Trump neutral person on this forum and I'm tired of him.

[RiverDog]

That's why I don't worry about people too much. I don't hold grudges. I don't dislike or hate people over politics or much else. Not worth my time. Most people you meet in person are good enough to hang out with for conversation now and again.

This whole forum is decidedly anti-Trump. No use for IDhawkman to hang out in a forum where he is the sole pro-Trump voice. I'm about the closest to a Trump neutral person on this forum and I'm tired of him.

I can fully understand why Idahawkman doesn't frequent this place anymore. Burrton used to give him some support but since he's bailed, too, it's a pretty lonely place for someone that proudly wears a red MAGA hat.

I actually don't discuss politics very much. As I think I've mentioned before, I'm reluctant to as I don't want people to feel that they can't approach me. I felt very passionately that one of my most important attribute as a supervisor was approachability, especially considering the diversity of the work force I managed. Even now that I'm retired, I still don't talk a lot about politics, even amongst my closest of friends.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can fully understand why Idahawkman doesn't frequent this place anymore. Burrton used to give him some support but since he's bailed, too, it's a pretty lonely place for someone that proudly wears a red MAGA hat.

I actually don't discuss politics very much. As I think I've mentioned before, I'm reluctant to as I don't want people to feel that they can't approach me. I felt very passionately that one of my most important attribute as a supervisor was approachability, especially considering the diversity of the work force I managed. Even now that I'm retired, I still don't talk a lot about politics, even amongst my closest of friends.

It depends on the person. A lot of my friends enjoy talking politics. I avoid talking politics with people who believe in nutty ideas. This world would be so much easier if so many humans weren't so bad at adapting to a constantly changing world and/or are so damn crazy.

I really enjoy discussing politics, religion, science including social sciences, and intellectual subjects I find interesting. Even football is a combination of the primal and intellectual. Primal due to its physicality and intellectual due to the strategy and tactics.

My brain is on and rolling when I'm awake. I get very bored if there isn't something intellectual to engage whether a debate or some topic to study.

[Hawktawk]

That's why I don't worry about people too much. I don't hold grudges. I don't dislike or hate people over politics or much else. Not worth my time. Most people you meet in person are good enough to hang out with for conversation now and again.

This whole forum is decidedly anti-Trump. No use for IDhawkman to hang out in a forum where he is the sole pro-Trump voice. I'm about the closest to a Trump neutral person on this forum and I'm tired of him.

Everyone is moving old HTs way. This was definitely not an anti trump forum a few years ago. I miss both Id Hawkman and Burrton because they never showed up for their crow. I took merciless attacks from Burrt, was told I was a total loon for my utter hatred and loathing of this man, suffering from Trump derangement syndrome etc. He talked a good game but he was way more pro trump than not.ID was a hopeless sycophant but again a great patriotic dude Id love to have a beer with i'm sure.

I do not talk politics with anyone I disagree with, especially now unless they bring it up. I keep my position short and sweet and refuse to get into the mud or carry on endlessly. I told my own brother to just stop when he launched into some Faux news covid truther bullshit while discussing the virus. I wish Hannity and Carlson would catch it and die they are screwing up so many good peoples minds including my lifelong friend of 45 years Dale who is just triggered and going off and I've NEVER SEEN HIM LIKE THIS.Me on the other hand

This forum is where I let off steam. But when my own Brother and best friend as well as many other friends still support the guy to the teeth we just have nowhere to start an intelligent conversation. I've unfollowed over 60 people, blocked some on FB who kept up arguments on messenger after i told them to STFU and drop it. I watch very little TV these days. Just waiting for November and lord willing this nightmare of an administration will go back to the swamp it crawled out of. I'm thankful it isn't Sanders and Warren up 9. Biden is a lifelong moderate and consensus builder and Harris is a rising star, Neither supports defunding police. Its a clear choice and it could have been so much worse.

[curmudgeon]

Wishing anyone to die is a classless move. No matter the politics.......

[RiverDog]

Everyone is moving old HTs way. This was definitely not an anti trump forum a few years ago. I miss both Id Hawkman and Burrton because they never showed up for their crow. I took merciless attacks from Burrt, was told I was a total loon for my utter hatred and loathing of this man, suffering from Trump derangement syndrome etc. He talked a good game but he was way more pro trump than not.ID was a hopeless sycophant but again a great patriotic dude Id love to have a beer with i'm sure.

My position towards Trump hasn't changed since he first became a candidate. I said back in 2016 that there was zero chance of my voting for him then and that remains so today. The only difference between this election and 2016 is that the Dems are nominating a person I can actually vote for. I'm not sure exactly why burrton left. He used to be active on the Seahawks forum, too, but he just disappeared without a trace. Idahawkman made an appearance a couple months ago, said he'd been busy with work but admitted that the place being so anti Trump had an effect on him. He's not a psychopath.

I do not talk politics with anyone I disagree with, especially now unless they bring it up. I keep my position short and sweet and refuse to get into the mud or carry on endlessly. I told my own brother to just stop when he launched into some Faux news covid truther bullshit while discussing the virus. I wish Hannity and Carlson would catch it and die they are screwing up so many good peoples minds including my lifelong friend of 45 years Dale who is just triggered and going off and I've NEVER SEEN HIM LIKE THIS.Me on the other hand

This forum is where I let off steam. But when my own Brother and best friend as well as many other friends still support the guy to the teeth we just have nowhere to start an intelligent conversation. I've unfollowed over 60 people, blocked some on FB who kept up arguments on messenger after i told them to STFU and drop it. I watch very little TV these days. Just waiting for November and lord willing this nightmare of an administration will go back to the swamp it crawled out of. I'm thankful it isn't Sanders and Warren up 9. Biden is a lifelong moderate and consensus builder and Harris is a rising star, Neither supports defunding police. Its a clear choice and it could have been so much worse.

Curm is right, wishing ill of a law abiding citizen is just wrong. Besides, Hannity came on his show advocating mask wearing a few weeks ago. I don't watch enough of him to know what his thoughts are about the virus but he said he's wearing a mask because he wants to watch football this fall.

It's true that Biden is a moderate and consensus builder, but he can be swayed, and my worry is that the Democratic party has moved so far to the left that if they gain complete control of Congress that Biden will be compelled to move with them. His lead has dwindled a bit in recent weeks. The latest RCP average has him up 7.6% but he's still right at 50%, meaning that most voters have already made up their minds. His lead in the big swing states, ie PA, MI, and FL, is outside the margin of error and there's a number of states Trump won in 2016, like AZ, WI, and TX, that Biden is either leading or within a few percentage points in this election With more people voting by mail than ever before, the campaign is going to be shortened by several weeks as people will be mailing in their ballots well ahead of the election, so realistically we're down to 60 days or so. I'm still sticking by my prediction that he wins by 5-7% nationally and 100-150 votes in the electoral college.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not so sure Biden would go far left if they won both houses, too.
He understands the need to bring the country together and I think that weighs heavy on him should
he be elected President. I think he's much more open to arguments on both sides than some previous
presidents.

[RiverDog]

I'm not so sure Biden would go far left if they won both houses, too. He understands the need to bring the country together and I think that weighs heavy on him should he be elected President. I think he's much more open to arguments on both sides than some previous presidents.

Both Democratic Presidents we've had since Carter haven't had a majority in Congress, either. Clinton and Obama lost their majorities big time in their first midterm election then never got it back. Neither Reagan or Bush 41 had a majority in the House. Bush 43 is the only POTUS since 1980 that had a majority for more than 2 years. We'll be in uncharted waters if the Democrats control Congress for Biden's entire term.

[Aseahawkfan]

No president I have seen in my 50 plus years has taken the path of encouraging divisiveness and relying on it to fuel his followers. I keep hearing no president has been as hated as Trump, but that's total BS. No one has invited hate as much as Trump. That's what these lemmings don't get. He wants the hate and he uses the hate to drive his insane followers who think they're in some kind of culture war.

I watched George Bush Jr handle all types of liberal attacks and not go on the offense. It's what I term keeping the peace which Trump doesn't know how to do. He can't just keep his mouth shut when this crap is going on. He doesn't seem to get that these are just the games D.C. politicians play to make it look like they're doing something for their followers. The Republicans will play the same games back. They will go back and forth on this crap. Same as Bill Clinton dealt with a ton of right wing hate and attacks on him leading to the Lewinski trial. Yet they both kept the peace and didn't get sucked into the rabbit hole of trying to fight idiots.

[I-5]

Below is an actual recent russian troll site that was identified by the FBI as having ties to the same groups that infiltrated the 2016 election cycle, and subsequently both facebook and twitter accounts associated with the company were suspended today. Notice how it has incendiary articles that target both the left and right. Their strategy is chaos. They use AI technology to create fake photos of fictional journalists, but they also recruit unsuspecting real journalists to write for them. It has just enough to make you think it's a regular independent news site...but is it?

https://peacedata.net/

"In an attempt to appear legitimate, Peace Data featured fake personas for people who were supposedly its editors, according to Graphika. These personas were used to recruit unwitting, real writers to contribute articles -- including, it seems, some writers in the United States, according to Graphika. Pictures for some of the fake personas were created using artificial intelligence technology, Facebook and Graphika said, the same kind of technology that is used to create deepfake video. Graphika pointed to a person identified online as "Alex Lacusta." A Twitter (TWTR) bio for "Lacusta" listed him as an associate and online editor at Peace Data. The profile picture on the account was created using deepfake technology, Graphika said."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/tech/russian-troll-group-facebook-campaign/index.html

[I-5]

I'm not so sure Biden would go far left if they won both houses, too.
He understands the need to bring the country together and I think that weighs heavy on him should
he be elected President. I think he's much more open to arguments on both sides than some previous
presidents.

Being a listener, which I think Biden is, doesn't mean he will do whatever the left demands. His records strongly suggests he is a moderate bordering on conservative, and that's all we have to go by. He's anti-defunding, anti-riot, anti-looting. If I was a republican disgusted with this non-leader president Trump, I'd be very comfortable with the return to stability that a Biden presidency promises. Even Kamala, for all of her moxie for a fight, is more on the moderate side than other democrats.

[c_hawkbob]

Below is an actual recent russian troll site that was identified by the FBI as having ties to the same groups that infiltrated the 2016 election cycle, and subsequently both facebook and twitter accounts associated with the company were suspended today. Notice how it has incendiary articles that target both the left and right. Their strategy is chaos. They use AI technology to create fake photos of fictional journalists, but they also recruit unsuspecting real journalists to write for them. It has just enough to make you think it's a regular independent news site...but is it?

https://peacedata.net/

"In an attempt to appear legitimate, Peace Data featured fake personas for people who were supposedly its editors, according to Graphika. These personas were used to recruit unwitting, real writers to contribute articles -- including, it seems, some writers in the United States, according to Graphika. Pictures for some of the fake personas were created using artificial intelligence technology, Facebook and Graphika said, the same kind of technology that is used to create deepfake video. Graphika pointed to a person identified online as "Alex Lacusta." A Twitter (TWTR) bio for "Lacusta" listed him as an associate and online editor at Peace Data. The profile picture on the account was created using deepfake technology, Graphika said."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/tech/russian-troll-group-facebook-campaign/index.html

It's a real problem unless you ask Trump, then it's purely a construct of the democrats to make him look bad, his buddy Vlad can't have had anything to do with it.

[RiverDog]

Being a listener, which I think Biden is, doesn't mean he will do whatever the left demands. His records strongly suggests he is a moderate bordering on conservative, and that's all we have to go by. He's anti-defunding, anti-riot, anti-looting. If I was a republican disgusted with this non-leader president Trump, I'd be very comfortable with the return to stability that a Biden presidency promises. Even Kamala, for all of her moxie for a fight, is more on the moderate side than other democrats.

Here's an editorial piece that has noted a couple of facts about some recent stances that Biden has taken:

Sure, Biden may not be calling for wiping away all student debt and providing free college. But he does want to spend an additional $1.5 trillion subsidizing education from preschool through college, including increased student aid, free community college, and some debt forgiveness. He may not be going the full AOC on the Green New Deal, but he does cite it as a “crucial framework” in his $1.7 trillion climate plan.

Throughout the primary, Biden has argued against the $34 trillion Sanders healthcare plan aimed at replacing all private insurance with a single government-run plan. However, Biden wants to spend $750 billion expanding Obamacare so that it includes more subsidies and a government-run plan that would erode private insurance over time. The provision was championed by the Left during the Obamacare debate, but it was deemed too extreme to pass muster with more centrist Democrats in the Senate.

Additionally, Biden wants to spend $1.3 trillion on a massive infrastructure bill, $640 billion to subsidize housing, and an additional $125 billion on fighting the opioid epidemic. All told, Biden’s big-ticket items alone would increase federal spending by more than $6 trillion.

To pay for part of his agenda, Biden has proposed $3.2 trillion in tax increases, including doubling the capital gains tax by taxing investments as ordinary income. He has also vowed to repeal the Trump tax cuts, which would increase taxes on the middle class.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... a-moderate

That's not "moderate bordering on conservative", at least not in my world. If the Democrats win control of Congress, which seems likely, Biden is almost certainly going to be pushed even further to the left.

[c_hawkbob]

There's nothing radical about returning taxes to the rich to prior levels.

[RiverDog]

There's nothing radical about returning taxes to the rich to prior levels.

But there is something radical about raising taxes on the middle class only to give it away with free (community) college.

[I-5]

By middle class, do you mean households that make $400k annually and up and capital gains of above $1 million? I grew up middle class, or so I thought; my 3 siblings and I graduated from college and all homeowners now, donate to charity, drive decent cars, take vacations a few times a year, and saving for retirement (all of which fits the american dream in my book), but neither my parents growing up or any of us now are at that level of annual income.

- Reverts the top individual income tax rate for taxable incomes above $400,000 from 37 percent under current law to the pre-Tax Cuts and Jobs Act level of 39.6 percent)
- Taxes long-term capital gains and qualified dividends at the ordinary income tax rate of 39.6 percent on income above $1 million and eliminates step-up in basis for capital gains taxation.

[Aseahawkfan]

By middle class, do you mean households that make $400k annually and up and capital gains of above $1 million? I grew up middle class, or so I thought; my 3 siblings and I graduated from college and all homeowners now, donate to charity, drive decent cars, take vacations a few times a year, and saving for retirement (all of which fits the american dream in my book), but neither my parents growing up or any of us now are at that level of annual income.

- Reverts the top individual income tax rate for taxable incomes above $400,000 from 37 percent under current law to the pre-Tax Cuts and Jobs Act level of 39.6 percent)
- Taxes long-term capital gains and qualified dividends at the ordinary income tax rate of 39.6 percent on income above $1 million and eliminates step-up in basis for capital gains taxation.

40 cents on every dollar made over 400,000 seems pretty insane. 40% of your productive activity goes to the government to spend as they will in an inefficient and sometimes immoral manner. Doesn't seem right to me. This is why it appears we're already socialist. Taking 40% of someone's earnings isn't right. In a real socialist society, they wouldn't even produce that much wealth. It is much more efficient socialism to take 40% of someone's wealth that they earn over 400,000. I still can't believe we let the government take half of someone's money and they give us almost nothing for it.

Some of you are way more tolerant of this type of highway robbery than I am. I can't even imagine making a million dollars in a year and having to pay the government 400,000 of it on top of sales tax on my purchases, business and operations taxes, and the like. Hard to fathom that there are people that think that is acceptable.

[RiverDog]

By middle class, do you mean households that make $400k annually and up and capital gains of above $1 million?

No, of course not.

My AGI filing as a married couple was $78,000 in 2019, which puts us in the 2nd to the bottom tax bracket, so I would consider my wife and I as being middle class. Through the Trump tax cuts, the bracket in which I am in was lowered, from 15% to 12%. Additionally, the standard deduction was raised (although I can't remember by how much). Biden has said on numerous occasions that he proposes to roll back Trump's tax cuts, so unless he plans not to extend that roll back to that bracket and not roll back the standard deduction, my taxes will go up under Biden's plan. But if that's not good enough for you, here's more:

"I would be going about eliminating Donald Trump's tax cut for the wealthy," Biden said on the debate stage. This is at least the ninth time that Biden has threatened to repeal the TCJA.

Biden’s promise to repeal the tax cuts is a promise to raise taxes. If the tax cuts were repealed:

A family of four earning the median income of $73,000 would see a $2,000 tax increase.
A single parent (with one child) making $41,000 would see a $1,300 tax increase.

Millions of low and middle-income households would be stuck paying the Obamacare individual mandate tax.

Utility bills would go up in all 50 states as a direct result of the corporate income tax increase.

Small employers will face a tax increase due to the repeal of the 20% deduction for small business income.

The USA would have the highest corporate income tax rate in the developed world.

Taxes would rise in every state and every congressional district.

The Death Tax would ensnare more families and businesses.

The AMT would snap back to hit millions of households.

Millions of households would see their child tax credit cut in half.

Millions of households would see their standard deduction cut in half, adding to their tax complexity as they are forced to itemize their deductions and deal with the shoebox full of receipts

https://www.atr.org/here-s-what-happens ... ay%20night.

[c_hawkbob]

According t Politifact, one of my three go to fact check sites, ATR.org scores "mostly false" to "pants on fire" on 74% of their checked content.

https://www.politifact.com/personalitie ... ax-reform/

Check your sources.