time to pack the court or whatever it takes

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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby mykc14 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:39 pm

RiverDog wrote:I understand that both parties are hypocritical. But we as good citizens should be calling them out when they do it. They are our leaders, and as all good leaders do, they should be setting an example for others by practicing consistency. It's not good enough for us to say that since the Democrats would have done the same thing so that makes it OK for the Republicans to do. Two wrongs don't make a right. It was either wrong to hold up the Garland appointment or wrong to advance the Barrett appointment. Personally, I don't have a problem with an appointment during an election year as it's happened on multiple occasions and felt that holding up the Garland appointment was wrong.

The other problem I worry about is that these behaviors encourage a tit-for-tat response. Harry Reid allows for simple majority approval for federal judicial appointments then the R's extend it to SCOTUS appointments. Trump diverts DOD money for an "emergency" a the southern border and next thing you know, the Dems will be using the same rationale to address climate change. They are bastardizing what used to be an unwritten set of rules, looking for any loop hole they can to advance their agenda.


As far as whether or not something that the government does is "OK" or not. That is definitely subjective and hard to define. For instance based on your above examples in which you say that both can't be 'OK." They actually are both 'OK' in some sense and not 'OK' in some sense. When I say that I am 'OK' with both I'm speaking to the idea that I can be 'OK' with something but not agree with it. In this particular case I am 'OK' with both of those situations because they are an outcome from the checks and balances in regards to confirming a SCOTUS nomination. I may not like what each party did but I am OK with it because not having that ability would give way too much power to one person in our government. I don't mind calling out hypocrisy but it should be done with an understanding that both parties are hypocritical. In today's America both sides seem to be able to quickly point out the hypocrisy of the opposite party but refuse to note the same hypocrisy in their own party.

I agree about the tit-for-tat response, it is scary and dangerous and Trump has certainly flirted with this and angered Dem's to the point that they are threatening to pull out all of the stops, including packing the SCOTUS. It is also why I am much more comfortable with a split government and I feel like the separation of powers, even when they aren't used in the exact intended way, are so important. I don't think that any of this is ideal, but I don't think there is an ideal way to govern 350 million people who come from as diverse a background as Americans do, especially when that population is basically split right down the middle of two political parties.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby I-5 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:56 pm

As far as whether or not something that the government does is "OK" or not. That is definitely subjective and hard to define. For instance based on your above examples in which you say that both can't be 'OK." They actually are both 'OK' in some sense and not 'OK' in some sense. When I say that I am 'OK' with both I'm speaking to the idea that I can be 'OK' with something but not agree with it. In this particular case I am 'OK' with both of those situations because they are an outcome from the checks and balances in regards to confirming a SCOTUS nomination. I may not like what each party did but I am OK with it because not having that ability would give way too much power to one person in our government. I don't mind calling out hypocrisy but it should be done with an understanding that both parties are hypocritical. In today's America both sides seem to be able to quickly point out the hypocrisy of the opposite party but refuse to note the same hypocrisy in their own party.

I agree about the tit-for-tat response, it is scary and dangerous and Trump has certainly flirted with this and angered Dem's to the point that they are threatening to pull out all of the stops, including packing the SCOTUS. It is also why I am much more comfortable with a split government and I feel like the separation of powers, even when they aren't used in the exact intended way, are so important. I don't think that any of this is ideal, but I don't think there is an ideal way to govern 350 million people who come from as diverse a background as Americans do, especially when that population is basically split right down the middle of two political parties.


Yes. Even if we may not agree on policies, I think we can agree on the process. Tit for tat is the system, and I don't see it changing, because neither party is willing to acquiesce. Let's hope the Founding Fathers also have that covered...I revere them, but I wonder if they could have pictured where we are now.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:12 pm

RiverDog wrote:I understand that both parties are hypocritical. But we as good citizens should be calling them out when they do it. They are our leaders, and as all good leaders do, they should be setting an example for others by practicing consistency. It's not good enough for us to say that since the Democrats would have done the same thing so that makes it OK for the Republicans to do. Two wrongs don't make a right. It was either wrong to hold up the Garland appointment or wrong to advance the Barrett appointment. Personally, I don't have a problem with an appointment during an election year as it's happened on multiple occasions and felt that holding up the Garland appointment was wrong.

The other problem I worry about is that these behaviors encourage a tit-for-tat response. Harry Reid allows for simple majority approval for federal judicial appointments then the R's extend it to SCOTUS appointments. Trump diverts DOD money for an "emergency" a the southern border and next thing you know, the Dems will be using the same rationale to address climate change. They are bastardizing what used to be an unwritten set of rules, looking for any loop hole they can to advance their agenda.


I don't know. I've reached the point where I don't think humanity ss a whole is capable of processing information well enough to call out people who are often their intellectual superiors using specialists and powerful media sources to convince the population that something is true or worth supporting. Event The Founding of America is a unique event where for some reason a group of men inspired by various thinkers decided to create a nation based on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" based on individual rights with a Constitution aimed at divesting power from a centralized government into dispersed government determined by the people and managed by representatives of voters. Even then one of the greatest hypocrisies and tragedies in history was allowed to continue with slavery and the denial of rights based on gender and race. Humanity has this strange ability to live with a high level of cognitive dissonance for extended periods of time where the reality in which they live does not match the values they claim to believe in. It's a very frustrating trait of humanity that makes it very difficult to eradicate hypocrisy in politics and society.

Do you really think humanity as a whole is capable navigating through this? I think it is possible. But quality leadership that isn't egotistical and self-interested is important. That only seems to come along every once in a while. I don't see it right now. Buy maybe soon. America always seems to find the right leader to push things in the right way at some point which is why we have been able to sustain as long as we have.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:42 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know. I've reached the point where I don't think humanity ss a whole is capable of processing information well enough to call out people who are often their intellectual superiors....


I was speaking from more of a personal or philosophical standpoint. Besides, I think that the 5 or 6 of us that post regularly are a cut above the general public and most of our elected officials.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Do you really think humanity as a whole is capable navigating through this? I think it is possible. But quality leadership that isn't egotistical and self-interested is important. That only seems to come along every once in a while. I don't see it right now. Buy maybe soon. America always seems to find the right leader to push things in the right way at some point which is why we have been able to sustain as long as we have.


That's the weakness of a democracy and one person, one vote. It doesn't yield very good leaders. We were better off with a President like Harry Truman that was the product of a smoke filled rooms and party caucuses than the choices we've given ourselves with this primary system that we've adapted.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby I-5 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:46 pm

That's the weakness of a democracy and one person, one vote.


If only. We've never had one person one vote, at least not for choosing presidents.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:44 am

Never has this ever worked anywhere in the world. Governing society by popular vote would lead to exactly what has been predicted time and time again.

I would personally prefer a move to voting for resumes over this campaigning and parties. All this rallying, lying, propaganda, and rubbish implies that we don't have laws, values, and clearly outlined rules for how this nation runs. All these politicians promising what they should not be offering, yet we tolerate it and wonder why our nation has gone astray. A nation of laws and values as we have spelled out in our Constitution should not be open to bribery by politicians promising to give certain groups advantages over others. It's wrong, yet somehow every election people fall for it.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:25 am

That's the weakness of a democracy and one person, one vote.


I-5 wrote:If only. We've never had one person one vote, at least not for choosing presidents.


Not in the general election, but it most certainly it has become more and more the case in our primary system, the system that has produced the two major candidates and our only viable choices.

If there's one thing in common between my liberal and conservative friends, it's a displeasure with the choices we've been given, and that's a direct result of a one person, one vote primary system that we've been trending towards over the past 50 years. That's why I said that we had better candidates coming out of smoke filled rooms and state caucuses vs. direct primary elections.

If you are an ardent Trump supporter, why would you ever vote for him in a primary election in 2020? He was running virtually unopposed. You can better utilize your vote by casting it for a Democrat and select the weakest, easiest to beat candidate, say Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, rather than wasting it by voting for Trump. That's one of the things that F-upped about our primary system.

If it were me, I'd s-can direct primary elections and return the delegate selection process to party run state caucuses, held in every precinct and open to any registered voter, where the only participants are those that are truly interested and informed about the needs of the country and are willing to donate a couple hours of their time rather than empowering the typical casual voter that makes their decision based on a 15 second sound bite through a one person, one vote primary election. Consider what C-bob was told by his fellow Kentuckians as to why there are so many registered Dems in the sate: So they can vote in the Democratic primary.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby I-5 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:57 am

I would personally prefer a move to voting for resumes over this campaigning and parties.


I would be all for voting for resumes and policy positions, and not even knowing names or faces. Unfortunately we don't live in that kind of world.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:08 pm

I guess now we'll see if Trump's "packed' court will rescue him after all: https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-asks-u ... 30191.html
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:39 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I guess now we'll see if Trump's "packed' court will rescue him after all: https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-asks-u ... 30191.html


So much for a "packed" SCOTUS being Trump's salvation:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied a last-minute attempt by President Trump’s allies to overturn the election results in Pennsylvania, a blow to the president’s continuing efforts to protest his loss to Democrat Joe Biden.

The court’s brief order provided no reasoning, nor did it note any dissenting votes. It was the first request to delay or overturn the results of the presidential election to reach the court, and it appears that Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Trump’s latest nominee, took part in the case.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

You guys really need to load up on tranquilizers. It's the only way you're going to make it to Jan. 20th without jumping out a window.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby I-5 » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:11 pm

I'm not worried even one bit that Trump can derail Biden from taking over the White House Jan 20. I'm just saying he's not going to fade away into oblivion, or stop making noise, or stop trying to creat more harm (example: gutting the Pentagon for no other reason than petty vindictiveness)...until he's dead.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:14 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I guess now we'll see if Trump's "packed' court will rescue him after all: https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-asks-u ... 30191.html

RiverDog wrote:So much for a "packed" SCOTUS being Trump's salvation:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied a last-minute attempt by President Trump’s allies to overturn the election results in Pennsylvania, a blow to the president’s continuing efforts to protest his loss to Democrat Joe Biden.

The court’s brief order provided no reasoning, nor did it note any dissenting votes. It was the first request to delay or overturn the results of the presidential election to reach the court, and it appears that Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Trump’s latest nominee, took part in the case.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

You guys really need to load up on tranquilizers. It's the only way you're going to make it to Jan. 20th without jumping out a window.

I link a story about Texas and you counter with one about Pennsylvania ... why I'm beginning to think you don't even open the links there Riv.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:27 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I guess now we'll see if Trump's "packed' court will rescue him after all: https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-asks-u ... 30191.html

RiverDog wrote:So much for a "packed" SCOTUS being Trump's salvation:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied a last-minute attempt by President Trump’s allies to overturn the election results in Pennsylvania, a blow to the president’s continuing efforts to protest his loss to Democrat Joe Biden.

The court’s brief order provided no reasoning, nor did it note any dissenting votes. It was the first request to delay or overturn the results of the presidential election to reach the court, and it appears that Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Trump’s latest nominee, took part in the case.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

You guys really need to load up on tranquilizers. It's the only way you're going to make it to Jan. 20th without jumping out a window.


c_hawkbob wrote:I link a story about Texas and you counter with one about Pennsylvania ... why I'm beginning to think you don't even open the links there Riv.


Actually your link contained the Pennsylvania story, too:

In another case, the Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected a bid by Pennsylvania Republicans to block the state from formalizing Biden's victory there.

Why am I I'm beginning to think that you don't read the entire story in those you link, my friend.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:42 pm

Yes, I did read the whole story. Which was why I didn't understand your reply. Even though it was just an "in other news" single sentence, it made your link redundant and not an effective retort.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:02 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Yes, I did read the whole story. Which was why I didn't understand your reply. Even though it was just an "in other news" single sentence, it made your link redundant and not an effective retort.


My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to think that SCOTUS will overturn this election. As conservative as they may be, those folks in the black robes aren't revolutionaries. I'd be surprised if they even take up one of those cases.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:09 pm

RiverDog wrote:So much for a "packed" SCOTUS being Trump's salvation:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied a last-minute attempt by President Trump’s allies to overturn the election results in Pennsylvania, a blow to the president’s continuing efforts to protest his loss to Democrat Joe Biden.

The court’s brief order provided no reasoning, nor did it note any dissenting votes. It was the first request to delay or overturn the results of the presidential election to reach the court, and it appears that Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Trump’s latest nominee, took part in the case.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

You guys really need to load up on tranquilizers. It's the only way you're going to make it to Jan. 20th without jumping out a window.


Its a relief but not completely surprising given the 46 rulings against trump in court so far.

Its not quite over. Its Trump . I rule nothing out till he packs his sh#t and gets. I hope there isn't a war or declaration of martial law in the meantime.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:32 am

RiverDog wrote:So much for a "packed" SCOTUS being Trump's salvation:

The Supreme Court on Tuesday denied a last-minute attempt by President Trump’s allies to overturn the election results in Pennsylvania, a blow to the president’s continuing efforts to protest his loss to Democrat Joe Biden.

The court’s brief order provided no reasoning, nor did it note any dissenting votes. It was the first request to delay or overturn the results of the presidential election to reach the court, and it appears that Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Trump’s latest nominee, took part in the case.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

You guys really need to load up on tranquilizers. It's the only way you're going to make it to Jan. 20th without jumping out a window.


Hawktawk wrote:Its a relief but not completely surprising given the 46 rulings against trump in court so far.

Its not quite over. Its Trump . I rule nothing out till he packs his sh#t and gets. I hope there isn't a war or declaration of martial law in the meantime.


It's over. You just don't realize it yet. You're worried about a few random actions magnified by a media that likes to sensationalize everything to sell stories. There ain't no 50 million Trumpbots armed to the teeth preparing to storm your home. More like a few hundred idiots with nothing better to do than to show off for some reporters.

The last time I can remember this kind of paranoia inflicting people was the Armageddon so many people were fearing in the days before Y2K. They either didn't realize or completely ignored the fact that the government's computers didn't crash when the fiscal year turned to 2000 a couple months before.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:29 am

RiverDog wrote:
It's over. You just don't realize it yet. You're worried about a few random actions magnified by a media that likes to sensationalize everything to sell stories. There ain't no 50 million Trumpbots armed to the teeth preparing to storm your home. More like a few hundred idiots with nothing better to do than to show off for some reporters.

The last time I can remember this kind of paranoia inflicting people was the Armageddon so many people were fearing in the days before Y2K. They either didn't realize or completely ignored the fact that the government's computers didn't crash when the fiscal year turned to 2000 a couple months before.


Its five weeks out and the president is openly declaring he won by a lot. 70% of his followers believe him. He's never going to concede but become only more erratic as our commander in chief, our chief executive. ITS ALREADY A DISASTER UNRIVALED IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HISTORY. The guy is burning down the house and most of the congress is silent. Its incredible, unamerican, treasonous. I've always said you can be on my jury you are so even headed and open minded but you and most americans are severely misjudging the peril this places us in . Might want to watch some of these interviews with people like Chris Krebs and other military and intelligence experts not employed by Trump. This is worse than any Russian disinformation campaign by a mile. Its an extreme danger coupled with the erratic man being in any proximity to our military.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:58 am

Hawktawk wrote:Its five weeks out and the president is openly declaring he won by a lot. 70% of his followers believe him. He's never going to concede but become only more erratic as our commander in chief, our chief executive. ITS ALREADY A DISASTER UNRIVALED IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HISTORY. The guy is burning down the house and most of the congress is silent. Its incredible, unamerican, treasonous. I've always said you can be on my jury you are so even headed and open minded but you and most americans are severely misjudging the peril this places us in . Might want to watch some of these interviews with people like Chris Krebs and other military and intelligence experts not employed by Trump. This is worse than any Russian disinformation campaign by a mile. Its an extreme danger coupled with the erratic man being in any proximity to our military.


One question for you, and I'm trying my best not to be sarcastic or insulting: After Jan. 20th when Joe Biden lowers his right hand and shakes hands with Chief Justice Roberts and Trump is still out there stoking the flames of his followers and calling for action, are we still going to be in extreme danger and subject to a revolution and overthrow of the government by the Trumpbots?

50 million people armed to the teeth would be 25 times larger than the largest army in the world. Our own army numbers just 1.3 million. If the Trumpbots aren't accepting the results of the election, why would they accept the newly installed POTUS, lay down their arms, and go home?
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:06 am

RiverDog wrote:My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to think that SCOTUS will overturn this election. As conservative as they may be, those folks in the black robes aren't revolutionaries. I'd be surprised if they even take up one of those cases.

Now Trump says his administration will be "intervening" in the Texas case because "America needs a victory" ... evidently this is the one he sees as having that snowball's chance.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-vows-i ... 44575.html
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:23 am

RiverDog wrote:My point was that there is no reason whatsoever to think that SCOTUS will overturn this election. As conservative as they may be, those folks in the black robes aren't revolutionaries. I'd be surprised if they even take up one of those cases.


c_hawkbob wrote:Now Trump says his administration will be "intervening" in the Texas case because "America needs a victory" ... evidently this is the one he sees as having that snowball's chance.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-vows-i ... 44575.html


Wake me up when it's over.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:59 pm

RiverDog wrote:Wake me up when it's over.


Once the electoral college votes, then I will join you in rest. If there are any shenanigans at the electoral college, I guess I will have to arm up and prepare.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:36 am

RiverDog wrote:Wake me up when it's over.


Aseahawkfan wrote:Once the electoral college votes, then I will join you in rest. If there are any shenanigans at the electoral college, I guess I will have to arm up and prepare.


They don't meet all in one place. They meet at the various state capitols around the country. I'm sure that there will be some major demonstrations of a couple thousand or so in some states, particularly at the battleground states like MI, PA, and WI, but it's not like they're going to be able to storm the place and somehow prevent or change the vote.

But I'll set the alarm clock for Monday afternoon. Sweet dreams.
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:30 am

Id rather you were right and its no big deal. But we are already in uncharted waters. If SCOTUS should somehow interfere with this case all bets are off. Id say I dont expect it but we've never been here with a court so ideologically tilted towards the party so lets see. Ill believe its over in the legal venue when I see it .People who are trump fanatics know where the SCOTUS live too...
Failing in that the man cannot be underestimated in what he will do between now and Jan 20 up to and including attempting to attack Iran or use a pandemic he is ignoring or some false pretext of election fraud to declare martial law or whatever.

I never thought Id see any politician in either party put up with what's happened with this loser president during a pandemic hes punted on , fumbled the snap no less. Screw the senate majority we are headed for a medical apocalypse with numbers exploding. There's a gross disregard for human life in the republican party in general. Its not OK or anything to be at peace with...
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Re: time to pack the court or whatever it takes

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:43 am

Hawktawk wrote:Id rather you were right and its no big deal. But we are already in uncharted waters. If SCOTUS should somehow interfere with this case all bets are off. Id say I dont expect it but we've never been here with a court so ideologically tilted towards the party so lets see. Ill believe its over in the legal venue when I see it .People who are trump fanatics know where the SCOTUS live too...
Failing in that the man cannot be underestimated in what he will do between now and Jan 20 up to and including attempting to attack Iran or use a pandemic he is ignoring or some false pretext of election fraud to declare martial law or whatever.

I never thought Id see any politician in either party put up with what's happened with this loser president during a pandemic hes punted on , fumbled the snap no less. Screw the senate majority we are headed for a medical apocalypse with numbers exploding. There's a gross disregard for human life in the republican party in general. Its not OK or anything to be at peace with...


If SCOTUS were going to interfere with the election, they would have done it in the recently dismissed Pennsylvania case. As frivolous as it was, it's much more credible than the Texas case as at least it was from within the same state. The Texas case not only has no supporting evidence, is seeking to disqualify ballots certified in other states.

SCOTUS will dismiss it without comment just as they did with the PA case. You heard it here first.
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