A Peaceful Transition

[I-5]

Sooooo...humor me if you will. Let's say not only Trump continues this charade into December (pretty safe assumption), and he's not alone, say Pompeo and other prominent republicans continue pushing the conspiracy that the election is a fraud...what happens next? Since the military doesn't have a role in this type of transition...what happens? This is just hypothetical at this point, however it is mid-November. If there was to be a coup, what would it look like?

[RiverDog]

Sooooo...humor me if you will. Let's say not only Trump continues this charade into December (pretty safe assumption), and he's not alone, say Pompeo and other prominent republicans continue pushing the conspiracy that the election is a fraud...what happens next? Since the military doesn't have a role in this type of transition...what happens? This is just hypothetical at this point, however it is mid-November.

The Electoral College casts their votes on the Monday after the 2nd Wednesday in December, or the 14th. After that, Joe Biden will be the legally, Constitutionally elected POTUS.

Anyone that wants to challenge that by any means other than legal does so at their own risk.

[I-5]

That's the question....what exactly is the risk, and what is the mechanism for enforcement?

[RiverDog]

That's the question....what exactly is the risk, and what is the mechanism for enforcement?

I can't answer that. All I can say is that once the Electoral College casts its vote, there will be no legal authority for anyone to challenge that decision. It's final. Game over.

You need to chill out. A more important question is can we beat the Rams this Sunday?

[Aseahawkfan]

I don' t know that anyone has ever challenged the electoral vote once it is made. So this might be a first.

I have to say I honestly don't know. Never seen it happen. Don't expect Trump to do anything other than leave once the electoral vote is made.

Pompeo isn't a party leader. He's a cabinet member. Besides a few sycophants and crazies like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz, most Republicans I've seen are walking that fine line between going, "Sure Trump can investigate any legitimate fraud, but barring evidence we're going to respect the election results."

It will be interesting if Trump decides to disrespect the electoral vote or if we have faithless electors try to play games. If that happens, we're in new territory. We'll have to see what is supposed to happen.

If it gets bad enough, well, that's what the Second Amendment is for. Time to arm up and decide this the hard way. I'm sure before that happens, the government will send in law enforcement to "escort" him out.

Though let me make this super clear: I think Trump will keep his legal battles going until the electoral vote, complain after that, then leave without issue while insulting people and commenting about stolen elections on Twitter. Everyone will move on from him and he won't see The White House again.

[I-5]

Don't worry Riv, I'm chill...just hypothesizing.

Don't expect Trump to do anything other than leave once the electoral vote is made.

I don't know why we would expect Trump to ever comply, if he can't acknowledge that he lost fair and square. This is a 74-year old man who will win at any cost, so it's hard to predict just what he'll do. Some of us thought he'd leave quietly after losing, and I don't think this election is even that close.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump will not push winning at all costs. He'll do whatever legal crap he can manage, that's it.

Trump is never quiet, but he's also not a martyr. He won't martyr himself to stay president. He won't martyr himself for any reason. He's also not a real fighter. If things get violent at all, he'll run. I don't think I've ever seen Trump fire a gun in my life. Maybe he's done it, but I've never seen it. Never even see him as pro-gun until he ran for president. Or religious for that matter.

[I-5]

Trump is never quiet, but he's also not a martyr. He won't martyr himself to stay president. He won't martyr himself for any reason. He's also not a real fighter. If things get violent at all, he'll run. I don't think I've ever seen Trump fire a gun in my life. Maybe he's done it, but I've never seen it. Never even see him as pro-gun until he ran for president. Or religious for that matter.

I fully agree he's no martyr. He's as big a coward as they come. But if he can get others to do his bidding for him by making it their cause, that would suit his purposes just fine. He is good at instigating people, that much he certainly has a talent for.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgdhp
Maybe this poll is as accurate as the rest but Ive seen far less activity on social media from supporters of Trump. I've seen Trump 2020 banners come down at the vacation resort full of older white people I work next to. I believe even the faithful have got to be getting tired of this. Little Donnie boy and his bike Kimberly Guilfoyle of Faux are making noise about starting a Trump Pac with an eye on 2024. Good luck with that.The dirtiest secret about this defend the vote legal fund is it can serve to pay down campaign debt and build funds for the Pac. The increasingly nervous law firms defending these frivolous lawsuits fights for gun control and other liberal issued most of the time and reports of disgruntled attorneys who feel they are attacking the american electoral process without justification are leaking.

Joe Biden has won in a landslide by modern standards, got a record number of votes for a challenger to a first term president, an overall record. He's won by 5 MILLION VOTES. Not one of the states is even remotely close enough to win a recount. The SCOTUS comments yesterday including from the guy who shouldn't be there Kavanaugh regarding Obamacare lead me to believe its a shot across Trumps bow regarding petitioning the court to hand him an election for no reason whatever.The conduct by Mitch McConnel and lap dog Lindsey and a few other synchpants only mirrors what they have done the last four years, cower before a deranged madman for votes. I wonder if it will wind up costing them the senate majority. Frankly I hope it does . They deserve it. The most despicable non job of oversight by a senate in my memory at great peril to america.

[RiverDog]

Maybe this poll is as accurate as the rest but Ive seen far less activity on social media from supporters of Trump. I've seen Trump 2020 banners come down at the vacation resort full of older white people I work next to. I believe even the faithful have got to be getting tired of this. Little Donnie boy and his bike Kimberly Guilfoyle of Faux are making noise about starting a Trump Pac with an eye on 2024. Good luck with that.The dirtiest secret about this defend the vote legal fund is it can serve to pay down campaign debt and build funds for the Pac. The increasingly nervous law firms defending these frivolous lawsuits fights for gun control and other liberal issued most of the time and reports of disgruntled attorneys who feel they are attacking the american electoral process without justification are leaking.

Joe Biden has won in a landslide by modern standards, got a record number of votes for a challenger to a first term president, an overall record. He's won by 5 MILLION VOTES. Not one of the states is even remotely close enough to win a recount. The SCOTUS comments yesterday including from the guy who shouldn't be there Kavanaugh regarding Obamacare lead me to believe its a shot across Trumps bow regarding petitioning the court to hand him an election for no reason whatever.The conduct by Mitch McConnel and lap dog Lindsey and a few other synchpants only mirrors what they have done the last four years, cower before a deranged madman for votes. I wonder if it will wind up costing them the senate majority. Frankly I hope it does . They deserve it. The most despicable non job of oversight by a senate in my memory at great peril to america.

Most of the Trump banners and flags in my neighborhood have come down. But so have the random Biden/Harris signs. It's like Christmas decorations. Once the holiday season is over, they come down. The disappearance of signs and flags should not be interpreted as a waning of support.

Very few people outside of hardcore Democrats would consider Biden's victory a 'landslide'. Yes, he is going to win by a healthy margin in the Electoral College, but just like Trump in 2016, Biden won by virtue of small margins in a couple of key states. He's currently ahead in Georgia by 12,000, in PA by 48,000, and in AZ by 13,000, or a total of 47 electoral votes. That's a smaller margin than Trump won by in 2016 in winning PA, MI, and WI, and Biden currently has less than 51% of the popular vote. Plus Biden has no coattails whatsoever. That's not a landslide in my book.

And like you, I agree that it was a good sign to see the SCOTUS justices, including 3 conservatives, reject the Trump administrations bid to overturn Obamacare. Even the staunch conservative Alito, who has been hostile towards Obamacare in the past, indicated that he would be unlikely to vote to end it. And yes, Trump should consider it a shot across the bow if in the unlikely event that the election reaches the high court that they will be his salvation. It also supports my argument that despite the fact that it currently leans right, SCOTUS is a very fair and objective institution. Trump has not been able to pack it with his cronies as you have been suggesting over the past few years.

[c_hawkbob]

My Biden/Harris sign lasted until the second night after the election. We forund it torn up in the ditch when I got up for work ... "the tears of my enemies" flavored my morning coffee! The wife and I got a kick out of it but my daughter and son in law got pissed, are gonna get a security camera system, want another gun in the house.

All the Trump/Pence signs are still up.

[RiverDog]

My Biden/Harris sign lasted until the second night after the election.

I've never so much as put a bumper sticker on my car or truck. For the most part, I like to keep my political views private, and if you'll allow me to indulge myself for just a few minutes and forgive me if I've told this story before, I'll tell you why.

In 1978, fresh out of college, I landed a supervisory position at a food processing plant when I was 23 years old. I had quite a big mouth back then and was very expressive of my political views. In 1979, Iranian radicals stormed and seized the American embassy in Tehran, touching off the Iranian Hostage crisis. It was a big topic everywhere, and in conversations with both hourly and management types, I made comments to the extent that we should fire up the B-52's and carpet bomb Tehran. I thought nothing of my remarks as it seemed to be the prevailing opinion.

A few years later, I received a promotion to shift supervisor over a crew of around 75. I was essentially the plant manager for an 8 hour shift. A hard working Iranian immigrant employee of ours approached me with a request. He wanted to take a leave of absence, travel to Iran to get his wife and bring her back to the USA and still retain his seniority. I had quite a bit of autonomy back then, relative to what it was like when I retired. In any event, this guy's problem was difficult. We had no diplomatic relations with Iran, so in order to get his wife a visa to the USA, he had to fly to Iran, get a visa to West Germany, then go to the US embassy there and get a visa to get her back to the States. Plus there was a war going on between Iran and Iraq with things going badly for Iran. I thought it entirely possible that they'd see a healthy young man and throw him into the army.

I approved the LOA on the condition that he call me personally at home once every week or so (I had just purchased my first answering machine) and keep me up to date on his progress as I did not want to arbitrarily keep extending his leave in case I ever got challenged by my superiors, which he did. It took several months and 5 or 6 phone calls, but he was eventually able to get his bride back to the states and return to his normal job, so all was good.

One evening a few years later, I walked into a cocktail lounge and here was this Iranian employee of ours waving frantically at me to come over to his table as he wanted to introduce me to his wife. After a few drinks, he told me how scared he was to approach me about the LOA as he had heard the comments I had made about Iran back in '79 and feared that I'd throw him out of my office. His admission of fear made an impression on me, and I felt very ashamed of myself.

From that day on, I have been very reluctant to reveal my views on any political issue unless I am with very close friends in small groups. The closest I ever got to revealing my political opinion was in 2016. When I was asked, I would tell people that I did not vote for DJT, but that's all I would say. I strongly believe that a good supervisor or manager should do everything they can to make themselves as approachable as possible, and keeping our political and religious views to ourselves is a big part of that. Despite being retired for several years, that attribute seems to have burned in.

Again, my apologies for being long winded and redundant if you're heard me tell that story before.

[c_hawkbob]

This year was my first ever yard sign, still ne'er a bumper sticker or pin or article of clothing. This year is also the first year I volunteered at my local Democratic HQ.

This year was different. As much as you like to put it in the same drawer as all other elections, it's not. It's just not.

[RiverDog]

This year was my first ever yard sign, still ne'er a bumper sticker or pin or article of clothing. This year is also the first year I volunteered at my local Democratic HQ.

Which is perfectly fine with me. I have no problem with any of your activities, rather I admire your convictions. I was simply explaining my own attitude and do not want to suggest that anyone else adapt my POV.

This year was different. As much as you like to put it in the same drawer as all other elections, it's not. It's just not.

I'm not putting this election in the same drawer, and I'm not sure what caused you to come to that conclusion. You're right, it was very unique and IMO the importance of the outcome more consequential than any in the past 40 years. Nevertheless, I still like maintaining the appearance of neutrality.

[Aseahawkfan]

My Biden/Harris sign lasted until the second night after the election. We forund it torn up in the ditch when I got up for work ... "the tears of my enemies" flavored my morning coffee! The wife and I got a kick out of it but my daughter and son in law got pissed, are gonna get a security camera system, want another gun in the house.

All the Trump/Pence signs are still up.

You must live in some looney place. Hahaha. Now' I'm picturing c-bob surrounded by crazies with hate you towards you waiting to burn your house down. It can't be that bad, but the sound of this statement.

Well, I won't say I thought this election was about the ruination of the nation as so many stated save for the pandemic. If the pandemic hadn't happened, this election wouldn't have been as important to me. But Trump was such an idiot handling this pandemic even after I gave him the benefit of the doubt the first month or so, that it did become important for the sake of someone intelligent and less narcissistic handling the pandemic. Once Trump started treating the pandemic like a PR issue, I was done with him.

I read on how nations were handling this pandemic and here's America treating it like it's no big deal. No contact tracing, no coordinated plan, president not wearing a mask most of the time due to his manhood, and trying to brush it off while millions of Americans get sick and hundreds of thousands die. No end in sight to the pandemic because the governors are all handling it different ways with little guidance to The White House.. The White House politicizing the pandemic to win an election including picking doctors that support his view and arguing with the CDC and pulling us out of the WHO. This election did become extremely important because of the idiot handling of this global pandemic.

And I'm still utterly surprised people almost pushed this guy into The White House another 4 years given his obvious mishandling of the coronavirus. It was unfortunate the crazy left picked such a terrible time to lose their minds and start burning cities down to allow Trump to fearmonger his way back into an election he was clearly on his way to losing. I'm glad in the end he was taken down. He proved his narcissistic personality was extremely bad for handling a pandemic. Even now he can't do what is right for the nation and step down. Just a scummy, ego driven man who should have never won.

[RiverDog]

And I'm still utterly surprised people almost pushed this guy into The White House another 4 years given his obvious mishandling of the coronavirus. It was unfortunate the crazy left picked such a terrible time to lose their minds and start burning cities down to allow Trump to fearmonger his way back into an election he was clearly on his way to losing. I'm glad in the end he was taken down. He proved his narcissistic personality was extremely bad for handling a pandemic. Even now he can't do what is right for the nation and step down. Just a scummy, ego driven man who should have never won.

Yeah, me, too. I was surprised that he was elected in the first place, but completely taken aback with this election. Part of that is because I bought into what the polls were telling us, but even so, the closeness of this election shocked me. I thought that once Trump caught the virus, that he would be completely discredited. Boy, was I wrong!

I do think that our friend Mack's reasoning may be indicative of a lot of voters. Even though it may be unfair to link Biden to the Democratic mayor's/governor's tepid response to the riots, the movement to defund the police, the Democratic Senators treatment of a SCOTUS nominee, or the impeachment inquiry as Biden didn't even hold elective office at the time, he does represent the Democratic party, so it's a rational response for a person to link him with specific events that they were outraged about. They weren't voting for Trump as much as they're voting against Democrats. The D's unexpectedly poor performance in the Congressional and Senatorial elections tends to support this hypothesis.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, me, too. I was surprised that he was elected in the first place, but completely taken aback with this election. Part of that is because I bought into what the polls were telling us, but even so, the closeness of this election shocked me. I thought that once Trump caught the virus, that he would be completely discredited. Boy, was I wrong!

I do think that our friend Mack's reasoning may be indicative of a lot of voters. Even though it may be unfair to link Biden to the Democratic mayor's/governor's tepid response to the riots, the movement to defund the police, the Democratic Senators treatment of a SCOTUS nominee, or the impeachment inquiry as Biden didn't even hold elective office at the time, he does represent the Democratic party, so it's a rational response for a person to link him with specific events that they were outraged about. They weren't voting for Trump as much as they're voting against Democrats. The D's unexpectedly poor performance in the Congressional and Senatorial elections tends to support this hypothesis.

These two sides hate each other. I have never seen my friends so convinced that voting for Trump was hope for the nation as I have this election. They view the Democratic left as hating America, hating white men, wanting to take their guns away, defunding the police, and the like. I had one friend who hadn't voted for twenty years vote for Trump because he felt the Democrats were going to destroy the nation. A few of my friends were similar to hawktawk, but they view the Democrats and Biden like hawktawk sees Trump. It was nuts. One of my friends said I was looking at Trump's personality over his policies and that his policies were good. I explained back that part of the job of president is keeping the peace and projecting a presidential persona in public. But that part of the job wasn't important to them.

I cannot believe Americans have reached this irrational a view of each other. I can only surmise that most of it is pandemic driven. This being stuck in the house watching these propaganda driven news stations while stuck drove people mad. I would bet good money that once this pandemic is done the normal level of crazy will return.

You would think from the way Americans act they live in some kind of 3rd world dictatorship. I can only surmise that the media in this nation along with social media has become so powerful that it is able to manipulate people on a scale as yet unseen in history. People are so irrational and locked into their viewpoints that the fear-mongering and manipulation by the media is able to push their buttons like it never has before. I don't get it. We're not living in terrible times. Our lives are easier than they've ever been. We have plentiful food. Opportunities for all people are as good as they've ever been and improving. Yet to listen to the national narrative, we're in some kind of terrible nation with dramatic problems.

I'm not sure what you can do when a wealthy, powerful, well off nation believes their lives are terrible or the nation is troubled. The cognitive dissonance that separates reality and fiction is hard to breach in that situation. We literally have no issue we can't fix with discussion, but people act like we're in some kind of decline. The reality doesn't fit the evidence. It's very strange.

[RiverDog]

I cannot believe Americans have reached this irrational a view of each other. I can only surmise that most of it is pandemic driven. This being stuck in the house watching these propaganda driven news stations while stuck drove people mad. I would bet good money that once this pandemic is done the normal level of crazy will return.

I don't think it's pandemic driven, and I don't know how much worse it is now than it was when I started following politics in the late 60's/early 70's. I remember watching a game show in the mid 70's, Family Feud with Richard Dawson as the host. One of the questions with multiple answers was who should go to hell, and one of the top 3 answers, along with Hitler, was Richard Nixon. Dawson made an unusual comment, noting that Nixon did some really bad things but didn't deserve to go to hell. People have always taken their politics way too seriously.

You would think from the way Americans act they live in some kind of 3rd world dictatorship. I can only surmise that the media in this nation along with social media has become so powerful that it is able to manipulate people on a scale as yet unseen in history. People are so irrational and locked into their viewpoints that the fear-mongering and manipulation by the media is able to push their buttons like it never has before. I don't get it. We're not living in terrible times. Our lives are easier than they've ever been. We have plentiful food. Opportunities for all people are as good as they've ever been and improving. Yet to listen to the national narrative, we're in some kind of terrible nation with dramatic problems.

Media definitely plays a role, but we can't just blame social media. Cable TV and talk radio, products of the 80's, and the internet a couple decades later, has allowed people to listen only to what they want to hear. They do not get broad exposure to various opinions and points of view.

I'm not sure what you can do when a wealthy, powerful, well off nation believes their lives are terrible or the nation is troubled. The cognitive dissonance that separates reality and fiction is hard to breach in that situation. We literally have no issue we can't fix with discussion, but people act like we're in some kind of decline. The reality doesn't fit the evidence. It's very strange.

That's one of the reasons why I don't like talking politics. It's too much of a hot button issue.

Funny thing. I have two former co workers that I've maintained close relationships with that I've mentioned in here before. They're both immigrants in their 40's, one is a native Peruvian and the other a native Iraqi. We sat at an outdoor bar and the subject turned to politics. I had assumed that they both held very strong opinions against Trump because of his aggressive stance against immigration, in particular my Iraqi friend as he's a Muslim. Although they both didn't like Trump, they were no where near as offended as I expected them to be. I am a lot more anti Trump than they are. I suppose that says more about us native born Americans, that we are incredibly sensitive to politics.

[Aseahawkfan]

The Iraqi guy's attitude doesn't surprise me. I worked with an Iraqi Shia for a few years getting a nice education on that region of the world. I work with a lot of Muslim folk. They don't get Americans. They see Trump and don't think of him at all like a dictator. The Iraqi folk lived with a real dictator for decades. What Saddam was like doesn't compare to Trump at all. It's pretty hard for anyone who has lived in a real dictatorship to take Trump's talk as a real threat.

I disagree that this isn't pandemic driven. My buddies have been stuck in their houses. One of them laid off from his job. They haven't been able to travel normally or go about normally at all. The mask wearing is tough on them. They don't like it. All they've been able to watch to update them on the pandemic is Fox and CNN/MSNBC. These stations politicized the crap out of the virus and mask wearing. I think that definitely had an effect on my friends.

If they had been working normally and able to go out of their houses to do what they like to do, they wouldn't have had the time or inclination to spend so much time buying into political news. Just like I think the protests wouldn't have been near as bad if people hadn't been stuck in their houses looking for a reason to get out.

So we'll have to disagree on that. Pandemic had a huge effect on the level of crazy we reached.

[RiverDog]

The Iraqi guy's attitude doesn't surprise me. I worked with an Iraqi Shia for a few years getting a nice education on that region of the world. I work with a lot of Muslim folk. They don't get Americans. They see Trump and don't think of him at all like a dictator. The Iraqi folk lived with a real dictator for decades. What Saddam was like doesn't compare to Trump at all. It's pretty hard for anyone who has lived in a real dictatorship to take Trump's talk as a real threat.

I asked my buddy about Saddam, asked him if life in Iraq under him was better or worse than what it is now. He said that you could avoid Saddam, and that things were worse because of ISIS. He said that ISIS was composed of the former Republican Guard, Saddam's personal security force, similar to Hitler's SS. In any event, I think you're right. Ironically, he called me last night as Snoqualmie Pass was closed yesterday and he had to drive from here in the Tri Cities to SeaTac to catch a flight today.

I disagree that this isn't pandemic driven. My buddies have been stuck in their houses. One of them laid off from his job. They haven't been able to travel normally or go about normally at all. The mask wearing is tough on them. They don't like it. All they've been able to watch to update them on the pandemic is Fox and CNN/MSNBC. These stations politicized the crap out of the virus and mask wearing. I think that definitely had an effect on my friends.

If they had been working normally and able to go out of their houses to do what they like to do, they wouldn't have had the time or inclination to spend so much time buying into political news. Just like I think the protests wouldn't have been near as bad if people hadn't been stuck in their houses looking for a reason to get out.

So we'll have to disagree on that. Pandemic had a huge effect on the level of crazy we reached.

IMO the pandemic has made it worse, but it's not the root cause. We've always had very deep, disturbing divides when the subject turns to politics, which is one of the reasons why I try to avoid the subject except for close friends in small groups and here in the forum.

[Aseahawkfan]

IMO the pandemic has made it worse, but it's not the root cause. We've always had very deep, disturbing divides when the subject turns to politics, which is one of the reasons why I try to avoid the subject except for close friends in small groups and here in the forum.

We're probably disagreeing on semantics then. Pandemic made the crazy far worse, which is why a return to normal crazy would be welcome.

[I-5]

"The current administration does not have to concede, but it should do the right thing just in case the Constitutional system declares they lost. It is not about the GOP or the Democrat Party. It is not about the president or about Mr. Biden. It is about America and what is best for our people. Mr. Trump should order the transition process begin immediately. It is the right and moral thing to do."

Perfectly reasonable statement from former Chief of Staff John Kelly. Which means of course it won't happen.

[Aseahawkfan]

"The current administration does not have to concede, but it should do the right thing just in case the Constitutional system declares they lost. It is not about the GOP or the Democrat Party. It is not about the president or about Mr. Biden. It is about America and what is best for our people. Mr. Trump should order the transition process begin immediately. It is the right and moral thing to do."

Perfectly reasonable statement from former Chief of Staff John Kelly. Which means of course it won't happen.

No one has yet accused Trump of being moral.

[RiverDog]

No one has yet accused Trump of being moral.

No kidding.

I remember a debate back in 1992 when George HW Bush was running for re-election against Bill Clinton, and one of the general questions was does character matter. The overwhelming response from Democrats, with Clinton being well known as a womanizer and draft dodger, as their standard bearer vs. Bush, a war hero with an impeccable personal reputation, was that such an intangible characteristic as character was didn't matter, that substance was more important. Now the tables seem to have turned.

[Aseahawkfan]

No kidding.

I remember a debate back in 1992 when George HW Bush was running for re-election against Bill Clinton, and one of the general questions was does character matter. The overwhelming response from Democrats, with Clinton being well known as a womanizer and draft dodger, as their standard bearer vs. Bush, a war hero with an impeccable personal reputation, was that such an intangible characteristic as character was didn't matter, that substance was more important. Now the tables seem to have turned.

I honestly miss that generation of people. I am so happy I was raised when I was raised. It was on the tail end of this crazy. Barring the racist values, the family and societal values were preferable to what I see in the modern day. Feels like there was some transition from the 80s to the 90s where America kind of went off the rails trying to be everything to everyone and finding themselves lost in the weeds and losing any sense of identity they ever had. Now the word is we have no culture and no identity. I find it hard to argue that we do.

[RiverDog]

I honestly miss that generation of people. I am so happy I was raised when I was raised. It was on the tail end of this crazy. Barring the racist values, the family and societal values were preferable to what I see in the modern day. Feels like there was some transition from the 80s to the 90s where America kind of went off the rails trying to be everything to everyone and finding themselves lost in the weeds and losing any sense of identity they ever had. Now the word is we have no culture and no identity. I find it hard to argue that we do.

The thing with the 90's vs. today that I don't ever hear about is the hypocrisy from both sides. There were Republicans that tried to impeach Slick Willy for lying about a BJ yet they seem perfectly fine with Trump paying 6 figure hush money to porn stars. There were women's groups that were good with Clinton's multiple sexual harassment allegations but were outraged by Kavanaugh's 37 year old rumors. Some noted Bush's going back on his "Read my lips: No new taxes!" pledge but didn't call Trump on his "Mexico's going to pay for the wall" promise, There's a huge number of people in this country on both sides of the political spectrum that have to look at the capital letter behind the last name before they decide if that person is honest, moral, and ethical. I find it appalling that our society has become so polarized that they can't see a hypocrisy as blatant as those.

Back to the OP. Georgia has to certify their election results on 11/20, or next Friday. Michigan and Pennsylvania must certify theirs on the 23rd, the following Monday. None of Trump's legal challenges, even if they were successful, have the potential of overturning enough votes to flip one state, let alone two. Unless something completely unprecedented happens in the recounts that turns up a huge discrepancy, past history suggests that the totals are likely to change by a few hundred votes. Bottom line is that by a week from Monday, the vast majority of Republicans will have to publicly abandon Trump or risk damaging their own careers.

Here's a link to the timeline:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/ ... 234952002/

[I-5]

Whatever good Trump or his supporters can claim for any accomplishments of his administration has been undermined by the lack of care shown by the pandemic, and now during the transition to a possible new president. As Kelly says, you can still pursue legal recourse while aiding the transition process.

The lack of cooperation, plus the disappearing act during this surge in covid cases and hospitalizations, puts the country in a dangerous and vulnerable state. For a guy whose image means everything, refusing to acknowledge his loss by allowing a peaceful transition to begin is cementing his legacy.

Why does it have to go this far for anyone to see not just what a terrible person, but a terrible president he is? Does anyone still think if the pandemic hadn’t hit, the country would be ok under this ‘leadership’?

[NorthHawk]

I caught a headline last night before I went to bed (so I didn't read it and now can't find it again) that said Trump was trying to find ways to replace the EC voters
with his people. If that's true then it's bold faced evidence that he's no better than a tin pot dictator.

[RiverDog]

Whatever good Trump or his supporters can claim for any accomplishments of his administration has been undermined by the lack of care shown by the pandemic, and now the transition. The lack of cooperation puts the country in a more vulnerable state were something to happen. For a guy whose image means everything, refusing to acknowledge his loss by allowing a peaceful transition to begin is cementing his legacy.

Trump's behavior doesn't surprise me one little bit. He's a narcissistic spoiled rich kid that has never experienced any part of his life like the rest of us have lived ours. His ego prevents him from acting responsibly. Although I do expect him to start giving Biden's team things like access to intelligence briefings I don't expect him to ever concede and will maintain his claim that the election was stolen.

Although I do like Biden's tactic of downplaying the effect of Trump's stubbornness on the transmission and I think that he has a genuine interest in bringing the nation together, I am beginning to get concerned at some of the names I've been hearing being thrown around as he starts to fill in his cabinet. It's looking like he's already being pushed around by the progressive wing of the party. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I sure hope the R's can hold onto the Senate.

Trump's comments last night made me laugh and cry at the same time. He keeps insisting that the reason we 'look so bad' is due solely to testing. Never mind that our hospitals and ICU rooms are bulging at the seams.

[RiverDog]

I caught a headline last night before I went to bed (so I didn't read it and now can't find it again) that said Trump was trying to find ways to replace the EC voters
with his people. If that's true then it's bold faced evidence that he's no better than a tin pot dictator.

I heard that, too. It was a comment that came from "sources familiar with Trump's activities" via the NYT. According to the source, Trump was asking about that possibility.

"It was not a detailed conversation, or really a serious one," and did not reflect any "obsessive desire" of Trump to remain in office, the report described the sources as saying.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-d ... yt-2020-11

We're going to have to be careful with the information coming out of the White House now that Trump is a lame duck and his staffers days are numbered. There's going to be all sorts of crapola, some of it true, some of it complete fantasy. It's one of those believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear things.

[NorthHawk]

It sounds like he's flailing away trying to stay in power and at the same time settling scores with those he thinks are not loyal enough
or had the guts to tell the truth in public.

[Hawktawk]

No one has yet accused Trump of being moral.



No kidding.

I remember a debate back in 1992 when George HW Bush was running for re-election against Bill Clinton, and one of the general questions was does character matter. The overwhelming response from Democrats, with Clinton being well known as a womanizer and draft dodger, as their standard bearer vs. Bush, a war hero with an impeccable personal reputation, was that such an intangible characteristic as character was didn't matter, that substance was more important. Now the tables seem to have turned.

Yes but not quite the same. Republicans like Mitch McConnel impeached Clinton over a BJ and stop with the hair splitting legalese. It was over lying about a consensual sex act.

Frankly as a staunch republican "moral majority" former pastoral major and christian man I found his behavior abhorrent and totally disqualifying on many levels. I feel like in the media age where everything comes to light it was Clinton who jumped the shark. As Carville said "its the economy stupid". He got away with known horrible behavior and survives and thrives to this day which i've always thought was a disgrace.

Then this Trump guy came along. Russia , Ukraine, 5 defense secretaries in less than a full term etc, 25 accusations of rape/sex assault and 2 pending lawsuits stemming from them. He's on tape beforehand bragging about being able to get away with grabbing women by the privates and his supporters like ID Hawkman didn't even believe it then. Clinton was a scumbag but he's well off the hook compared to the mutant ninja black belt scumbag but suddenly the republicans in the senate have amnesia. No its different with this president and his slavish bobblehead party than any other.Falwell Jr with his speedos on watching his wife with the pool boy is one of the best possible metaphors for the Trump parties blind devotion to the porn star president.

[c_hawkbob]

We're going to have to be careful with the information coming out of the White House now that Trump is a lame duck and his staffers days are numbered. There's going to be all sorts of crapola, some of it true, some of it complete fantasy. It's one of those believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear things.

I think the greater funcional cautionary is that there will be a lot of truth coming out that scans as crapola because of our pre-Trump BS meter calibrations. The zero has moved considerably on this particular scale! I think it's gonna be more of a "you ain't heard the half of it" things.

[RiverDog]

I think the greater funcional cautionary is that there will be a lot of truth coming out that scans as crapola because of our pre-Trump BS meter calibrations. The zero has moved considerably on this particular scale! I think it's gonna be more of a "you ain't heard the half of it" things.

A distinct possibility.

If it's like Nixon and Watergate, it's going to be decades before we get the full, unadulterated version of actual events. But I'm not sure if the 1970's is a relevant comparison to the information age we live in today.

And who knows. We may end up with a Trump Part 2 in 2024.

[c_hawkbob]

And who knows. We may end up with a Trump Part 2 in 2024.

Bite your tongue!

Off!!

[Hawktawk]

Although I do like Biden's tactic of downplaying the effect of Trump's stubbornness on the transmission and I think that he has a genuine interest in bringing the nation together, I am beginning to get concerned at some of the names I've been hearing being thrown around as he starts to fill in his cabinet. It's looking like he's already being pushed around by the progressive wing of the party. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I sure hope the R's can hold onto the Senate.

Trump's comments last night made me laugh and cry at the same time. He keeps insisting that the reason we 'look so bad' is due solely to testing. Never mind that our hospitals and ICU rooms are bulging at the seams.

Not sure of all the names but Ron Klain as chief of staff AKA the "pandemic czar" under Obama sounds damn good to me.Ive heard Warren is being shut out as is Sanders. Sure its more progressive, that's how the game works and all those suburbanites knew what they were voting for.Inslee for energy is actually interesting. At least he wouldnt be governor any more and he's more of a wonk anyway. Really can't stand the guy but I do feel he genuinely cares about his fellow human beings as opposed to the burn it down mentality of the current administration towards the environment and energy policies.

At present Trumps cabinet is a national security threat joke with his kids, his covid superspreader cabinet of incompetents and ass kissing sycophants.

Ill take competency over ideology please. I went to 1 or 2 seahawks games a year, went to sportys for breakfast every saturday all 8 years under Obama.Although I opposed him strenuously I never felt he was mentally ill or unstable.I never felt embarrassed hearing him speak although I was sometimes angry at what he said. He understood the dignity, the splendor of the office.He recognized that national and world champion athletes deserved a black tie affair with world class cuisine prepared by WH chefs, not MCD, KFC and Chik Filet.( I mean really?) He had a great sense of humor and could laugh at himself at the WH correspondents dinner as could most other presidents but Trump has skipped for his idiotic rallies all 4 years ..

These last 4 years it boggles my mind what could happen in the white house and that the entire legislature has not stood up and said enough! The american people. Its frightening the amount of votes he got.

I want my life back. I want to feel safe again cause I havent one minute of the last 4 years and we are less safe by the minute with this clown in charge.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d-c-b ... r-BB1b0swK
Looks like this peacful transition is working great as the presidents taxpayer funded motorcade riles up his dumb ass brain dead supporters. And he uses the trapping and platform of the presidency to spread baseless conspiracy theories 8 days after this was called. Yeah I understand the left wing bogeyman, socialism bad but still....Hiow grown adult supposedly patriotic flag waving americans can rally for a man who fires people on twitter and hides in his house other than to lie about Covid as he literally had sweat running down his face appearing disheveled and wild eyed. Who in their right mind would want 4 moe days of this, never mind 4 years.
I now know how hitler could rise. I do.

[RiverDog]

And who knows. We may end up with a Trump Part 2 in 2024.

Bite your tongue!

Off!!

I hate to say it, but it's not a joke. There is nothing that would prevent Donald Trump from running again in 2024, and when you consider how many votes he got despite the record turnout that was supposed to favor Democrats, he'd be a formidable threat.

That's one of the reasons why I hope that the progressives don't force Biden to veer to the left. Doing so would drive moderates to either Trump or a Trump clone (Donald Trump Jr. has been mentioned) and we'd be right back where we were in 2016.

[Aseahawkfan]

The thing with the 90's vs. today that I don't ever hear about is the hypocrisy from both sides. There were Republicans that tried to impeach Slick Willy for lying about a BJ yet they seem perfectly fine with Trump paying 6 figure hush money to porn stars. There were women's groups that were good with Clinton's multiple sexual harassment allegations but were outraged by Kavanaugh's 37 year old rumors. Some noted Bush's going back on his "Read my lips: No new taxes!" pledge but didn't call Trump on his "Mexico's going to pay for the wall" promise, There's a huge number of people in this country on both sides of the political spectrum that have to look at the capital letter behind the last name before they decide if that person is honest, moral, and ethical. I find it appalling that our society has become so polarized that they can't see a hypocrisy as blatant as those.

I'm not even talking about the politics, just the people. I'm glad I had that image of masculinity versus today. I look around at this electronically addicted, lazy, distracted generation of people and am thankful that I wasn't raised in it. They thought the TV was bad when we were growing up for turning people into zombies, phones are a 100 times worse and can go with you everywhere.

December 14 is the next date I care about. Electoral College vote. No shenanigans. Once it's done, he's done. I don't care about the Trump Boogeyman. I don't listen to politicians or the media for information. They are at best a starting point, but certainly aren't good information sources for much more than local or national events as they occur. You want to know what's going, you have to put in the time and effort to learn about an issue, not read a bunch of news stories or listen to innuendo.

December 14th and the electoral vote is the next key date. All the stories coming out between now and that date are just rumor and hearsay unless they pertain to an issue other than the election backed up by good source information and real data that something had an effect.

December 14. Mark it on your calendar. Once that vote is done, we are locked in for a peaceful transition and all the Republican Leadership will go with it save for perhaps a handful of loonies depending on what Trump says or does.

[RiverDog]

The thing with the 90's vs. today that I don't ever hear about is the hypocrisy from both sides. There were Republicans that tried to impeach Slick Willy for lying about a BJ yet they seem perfectly fine with Trump paying 6 figure hush money to porn stars. There were women's groups that were good with Clinton's multiple sexual harassment allegations but were outraged by Kavanaugh's 37 year old rumors. Some noted Bush's going back on his "Read my lips: No new taxes!" pledge but didn't call Trump on his "Mexico's going to pay for the wall" promise, There's a huge number of people in this country on both sides of the political spectrum that have to look at the capital letter behind the last name before they decide if that person is honest, moral, and ethical. I find it appalling that our society has become so polarized that they can't see a hypocrisy as blatant as those.

I'm not even talking about the politics, just the people. I'm glad I had that image of masculinity versus today. I look around at this electronically addicted, lazy, distracted generation of people and am thankful that I wasn't raised in it. They thought the TV was bad when we were growing up for turning people into zombies, phones are a 100 times worse and can go with you everywhere.

I agree, but I do think that every generation has always had these types of complaints about the succeeding generation. I know my dad thought that my generation was infected with a bunch of drug addicted, long haired, dirt foot hippies.

December 14 is the next date I care about. Electoral College vote. No shenanigans. Once it's done, he's done. I don't care about the Trump Boogeyman. I don't listen to politicians or the media for information. They are at best a starting point, but certainly aren't good information sources for much more than local or national events as they occur. You want to know what's going, you have to put in the time and effort to learn about an issue, not read a bunch of news stories or listen to innuendo.

December 14th and the electoral vote is the next key date. All the stories coming out between now and that date are just rumor and hearsay unless they pertain to an issue other than the election backed up by good source information and real data that something had an effect.

December 14. Mark it on your calendar. Once that vote is done, we are locked in for a peaceful transition and all the Republican Leadership will go with it save for perhaps a handful of loonies depending on what Trump says or does.

The "safe harbor" deadline is Dec. 8th. That's when states that have contested elections have to have settled their issues. It's the deadline that the 2000 election was up against and why SCOTUS stepped in when it did. If all the state's elections have been certified on the 8th, then there is nothing legally that anyone can do about it. The 14th is when the actual vote is taken:

Federal law (3 U.S. Code § 5) frees a state from further challenge if it settles legal disputes and certifies its results at least six days before the Electoral College meeting (Dec. 8th), which occurs this year on Dec. 14.

If the electoral vote was within a couple of electors, then the 14th would be more interesting due to the possibility of a faithless elector(s). But with Biden expected to have a 36-vote lead, the odds of enough faithless electors defecting that it would flip the election is pretty remote. What occurs on the 14th is a mere formality.