COVID19 Vaccine Information

[RiverDog]

It's more like bucking the scientists, some of whom are the best in the world in their field and have much more data than other scientists who do not.

That I can handle. But as I mentioned to CBob, the advisors like Fauci and administrators like those with the CDC/FDA, are physicians and scientists. They are not specially qualified beyond their own personal experiences to give opinions on how this might affect vaccine hesitancy, which would be better defined as an art rather than a science. They can give mathematically correct odds based on experimentation and observation on how likely it is to experience side effects, but they can't give those same types of odds on how likely this decision is to affect hesitancy.

I do not feel that the decision to place a complete pause on the J&J vaccine roll out placed enough weight on the impact this will have over vaccine hesitancy both here in the US as well as abroad. I also do not think that they gave fair consideration to a very reasonable, science based alternative, which would have been to at least temporarily stop using this vaccine on women 18-48 while allowing men and older women, whom have experienced no severe side effects, to continue to receive the vaccine.

The reason they don't just temporarily stop the vaccine for women 18-48 is precisely because they aren't sure if that is the extent of the group at risk. Therefor to define a group as at risk.

I disagree completely. If 7 million people receive a vaccine with 60-70% (I'm guessing) of the people either men or women over age 48 experience severe side effects, laws of probability would make it a near certainty (going back to my college days of having to figure out percentages based on decision trees) that at least one male or older female would have been included in those 6. Indeed, the CDC/FDA and Biden's advisors themselves have limited their concerns to women 18-48.

[NorthHawk]

I disagree completely. If 7 million people receive a vaccine with 60-70% (I'm guessing) of the people either men or women over age 48 experience severe side effects, laws of probability would make it a near certainty (going back to my college days of having to figure out percentages based on decision trees) that at least one male or older female would have been included in those 6. Indeed, the CDC/FDA and Biden's advisors themselves have limited their concerns to women 18-48.

But the general public doesn't have all of the data to make these statistical determinations. We only get what we are told by various sources that may or may not be completely accurate and could change the statistical determinations should
some of the information we receive be inaccurate. As well, there may be cases that have yet to be found where clotting did happen to men of different ages. We may find that occurrences are more prevalent in a certain age group, but
the risk is higher in others, too. That information would be welcomed by people who are making a fully informed decision.

[mykc14]

I disagree completely. If 7 million people receive a vaccine with 60-70% (I'm guessing) of the people either men or women over age 48 experience severe side effects, laws of probability would make it a near certainty (going back to my college days of having to figure out percentages based on decision trees) that at least one male or older female would have been included in those 6. Indeed, the CDC/FDA and Biden's advisors themselves have limited their concerns to women 18-48.

I will tell you that from my perspective, one that has been hesitant to get the vaccine in general pausing the J&J vaccine has caused me more concern, but not because of the numbers they are giving out. It seems odd to me that they would pause the vaccine rollout for a condition that has a (very rough math here) 1 in 500,000 chance of affecting somebody (based on the idea that there were 7 cases with 7 million shots and that it only affects women.) Like many others have stated before there is a 1 in 1,000 chance of a blood clot with birth control and we don't bat an eye. In general there is a 2 to 5 per 1 million chance that you could have an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine and there isn't a pause. I hope it simply is them really doing their do diligence, but it seems like maybe there is something more to it than that. Perhaps they are waiting to see if that number increases during the 'pause' period. I agree with River, it doesn't seem likely that a pause of a few days will do anything in solving the issue overall, but as somebody who already is hesitant to getting the vaccine a 1 in 500,000 chance does nothing to make me more hesitant.

[RiverDog]

I disagree completely. If 7 million people receive a vaccine with 60-70% (I'm guessing) of the people either men or women over age 48 experience severe side effects, laws of probability would make it a near certainty (going back to my college days of having to figure out percentages based on decision trees) that at least one male or older female would have been included in those 6. Indeed, the CDC/FDA and Biden's advisors themselves have limited their concerns to women 18-48.

But the general public doesn't have all of the data to make these statistical determinations. We only get what we are told by various sources that may or may not be completely accurate and could change the statistical determinations should some of the information we receive be inaccurate. As well, there may be cases that have yet to be found where clotting did happen to men of different ages. We may find that occurrences are more prevalent in a certain age group, but the risk is higher in others, too. That information would be welcomed by people who are making a fully informed decision.

You've lost me. What does the general public's understanding of the statistical determinations I presented have to do with the government's decision to call for a complete pause vs. only women of child bearing age?

And as far as justifying a full pause based on the possibility men might experience similar severe side effects that women 18-48 are, are we basing our decision on actual results or on pure speculation? If it's the latter, then why did we even approve the vaccine in the first place as we knew before it was approved that severe side effects were a possibility?

[RiverDog]

I disagree completely. If 7 million people receive a vaccine with 60-70% (I'm guessing) of the people either men or women over age 48 experience severe side effects, laws of probability would make it a near certainty (going back to my college days of having to figure out percentages based on decision trees) that at least one male or older female would have been included in those 6. Indeed, the CDC/FDA and Biden's advisors themselves have limited their concerns to women 18-48.

I will tell you that from my perspective, one that has been hesitant to get the vaccine in general pausing the J&J vaccine has caused me more concern, but not because of the numbers they are giving out. It seems odd to me that they would pause the vaccine rollout for a condition that has a (very rough math here) 1 in 500,000 chance of affecting somebody (based on the idea that there were 7 cases with 7 million shots and that it only affects women.) Like many others have stated before there is a 1 in 1,000 chance of a blood clot with birth control and we don't bat an eye. In general there is a 2 to 5 per 1 million chance that you could have an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine and there isn't a pause. I hope it simply is them really doing their do diligence, but it seems like maybe there is something more to it than that. Perhaps they are waiting to see if that number increases during the 'pause' period. I agree with River, it doesn't seem likely that a pause of a few days will do anything in solving the issue overall, but as somebody who already is hesitant to getting the vaccine a 1 in 500,000 chance does nothing to make me more hesitant.

Glad to see you poking your head in here again, mykc.

You're an educated person and can digest the information that precipitated the pause. Your not the type of individual that I'm concerned about as having their hesitancy affected by this decision.

[Aseahawkfan]

I find it incredible that otherwise smart individuals can't understand my concern, so in an effort to make my point more clear, here are a few experts that are parroting what I am saying:

"A global pause of the J&J vaccine seems excessive given the popular mythologies that are likely to arise from this statement for all vaccines," said Prabhjot Singh, a physician and global health expert at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.

Singh, who supports front-line workers in a clinic in New York City, said he believed the FDA and CDC statement would have an impact on those who are still deliberating whether to get a shot.

"I anticipate this announcement is going to increase vaccine hesitancy beyond J&J. It underscores the importance of direct conversations with folks by trusted messengers about their fears, concerns and options to be safe amidst a pandemic. We still have a ways to go before all communities are in the clear," he said.

But the fallout is likely to have implications beyond American borders, especially because global public health officials expected the Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccines to contribute substantially to vaccination efforts in the world's poorest countries.

Peter Hotez, a leading coronavirus vaccinologist and dean of Baylor University's National School of Tropical Medicine, said he worried that the pause would reverberate in low- and middle-income countries that were in line to use the adenovirus-based vaccines, which are easier to store and administer than the mRNA-based vaccines.

"In the U.S., we have other vaccine options," Hotez said in an email. "I'm worried about the impact for [low- and middle-income countries] given that adenovirus-vectored vaccines ... were supposed to be workhorses."

But the pause could become a tool for anti-vaccination activists like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and others who are distributing misinformation, who leaped on the news as part of their efforts to undermine faith in vaccines in general.

As it plays out, this is the sort of thing that increases the possibility of vaccine hesitancy across the board," said Dr. Steve Schrantz, an assistant professor of medicine at the University of Chicago, who specializes in infectious diseases. "It's a very hard thing to message, and it can put further doubt in people's minds."

And here's an incident of those fears manifesting itself in the form of canceled appointments due to hesitancy caused by the pause"

OSCEOLA COUNTY, Fla. About half of COVID-19 vaccine appointments scheduled for Osceola County’s homebound program have been canceled after the Johnson and Johnson vaccine was put on pause.

Officials who run the program say they used to rely on the Johnson & Johnson shot but have since switched over to Pfizer. They tell us even though they switched, patients have canceled their appointments due to overall vaccine hesitancy.

Sorry, I don't agree. I could go find ten "experts" who counter this claim. The reality is there is a real clotting issue for some reason. These vaccines for all your talk were fast-tracked in less than a year. They are new. If anything dangerous or unusual comes up, it should be looked into. Period. This short-term data saying it occurred in only a few people is short-term data, not long-term data. It may be because of a toxic reaction with another medication or a reaction due to some other element. They should do a quick check because what would be terrible is finding out there is some toxic mix that starts killing more people, then spiking fear of the vaccine. So I don't much agree on this. All the studies in the world you can post until blue in the face, but it's all short-term data for something that is new. I would prefer that we get as much data as possible on these quickly produced vaccines to make sure we cover our bases.

This is why I can't stand media postings and a lack of understanding from the individual posting the "experts" which can easily be proven to be found for any position.

You yourself should understand that a vaccine produced in under a year, released into the wild, and that has an issue should be checked if even for a short period just to make sure you're covering all your bases. This is additional data that allows you to provide guidance to the medical community on risk factors to look for such as a patient taking a particular medication that may not mix well with the vaccine. This isn't some mild reaction that caused some discomfort, the reaction killed someone. It should be looked into so if it is preventable, then you can add the guidance for vaccine delivery.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[Aseahawkfan]

In less than three months, Biden has already gone back on a number of things that he said he would or wouldn't do, so don't peddle this impression that he's simply keeping his word. And BTW, you never answered my question, so I'll state it again: Biden made an inauguration day request of the American public: "The first day I'm inaugurated to say I'm going to ask the public for 100 days to mask. Just 100 days to mask, not forever. One hundred days."

According to my count, we're at Day 85 since the inauguration, so two weeks from tomorrow on April 30th, Biden will reverse his federal mask mandate. Right?

That's campaign slogan, not science. Who cares. If we need to keep masking for a while, we keep masking.

[Aseahawkfan]

I will tell you that from my perspective, one that has been hesitant to get the vaccine in general pausing the J&J vaccine has caused me more concern, but not because of the numbers they are giving out. It seems odd to me that they would pause the vaccine rollout for a condition that has a (very rough math here) 1 in 500,000 chance of affecting somebody (based on the idea that there were 7 cases with 7 million shots and that it only affects women.) Like many others have stated before there is a 1 in 1,000 chance of a blood clot with birth control and we don't bat an eye. In general there is a 2 to 5 per 1 million chance that you could have an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine and there isn't a pause. I hope it simply is them really doing their do diligence, but it seems like maybe there is something more to it than that. Perhaps they are waiting to see if that number increases during the 'pause' period. I agree with River, it doesn't seem likely that a pause of a few days will do anything in solving the issue overall, but as somebody who already is hesitant to getting the vaccine a 1 in 500,000 chance does nothing to make me more hesitant.

The clotting from the JnJ vaccine killed someone. It caused a clot in the blood supply to the brain. This is a very specific type of blood clot that is very dangerous. It wasn't just some blood clot that could be easily dealt with if it pops up.

This is why they are concerned from random article: All six women who developed blood clots in response to J&J's vaccine were between the ages of 18 and 48. Each had a rare type of blood clot in the brain called central venous sinus thrombosis (CVST), along with low levels of platelets (colorless blood cells that help clots form).


https://www.businessinsider.com/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-side-effects-still-safe-2021-4

This is why they are checking carefully due to the specific nature of the blood clot and its location in 6 of the women this event occurred in.

This is a rare clot. It's a very dangerous type of clot. The low platelet levels is also an issue. It should be looked into.

[RiverDog]

In less than three months, Biden has already gone back on a number of things that he said he would or wouldn't do, so don't peddle this impression that he's simply keeping his word. And BTW, you never answered my question, so I'll state it again: Biden made an inauguration day request of the American public: "The first day I'm inaugurated to say I'm going to ask the public for 100 days to mask. Just 100 days to mask, not forever. One hundred days."

According to my count, we're at Day 85 since the inauguration, so two weeks from tomorrow on April 30th, Biden will reverse his federal mask mandate. Right?

That's campaign slogan, not science. Who cares. If we need to keep masking for a while, we keep masking.

That wasn't why I brought it up. Even though I'm fully vaccinated, I'm completely on board with masking for however long its required. The reason I brought it up was that Cbob was defending Biden based on the fact that he made a campaign promise to "follow the science", ie his scientific advisors. My point was that Biden has gone back on several of his promises and is likely to go back on his ill advised pledge to ask Americans to mask up "not forever, just 100 days".

Biden's already made a conscious decision to violate several of his promises, so his promises mean nothing. He's no more credible than any other politician, so to me, his pledge to "follow the science" is not credible and using it to defend his actions is laughable.

I'm not sure if I commented in here or not, but when Biden first made his 100 days mask comment, I told my wife that he was making a mistake, that we might have to wear masks well into this summer. Now he has his tit in a wringer as we're likely to need to mask at least another month, especially in places like Michigan, and he won't be able to rescind his EO. The right will hammer him for his 100 day pledge.

[Aseahawkfan]

That wasn't why I brought it up. Even though I'm fully vaccinated, I'm completely on board with masking for however long its required. The reason I brought it up was that Cbob was defending Biden based on the fact that he made a campaign promise to "follow the science", ie his scientific advisors. My point was that Biden has gone back on several of his promises and is likely to go back on his ill advised pledge to ask Americans to mask up "not forever, just 100 days".

Biden's already made a conscious decision to violate several of his promises, so his promises mean nothing. He's no more credible than any other politician, so to me, his pledge to "follow the science" is not credible and using it to defend his actions is laughable.

I'm not sure if I commented in here or not, but when Biden first made his 100 days mask comment, I told my wife that he was making a mistake, that we might have to wear masks well into this summer. Now he has his tit in a wringer as we're likely to need to mask at least another month, especially in places like Michigan, and he won't be able to rescind his EO. The right will hammer him for his 100 day pledge.

Has there ever been a politician in history who fulfilled all their campaign promises or didn't go back on them? If you were a politician running on a national level, you would find yourself saying things you probably thought you would never say and then going back on them. Just the nature of being a national level politician. Hell, most politicians period do this. There have been jokes for as long as I've been alive about politicians saying things they never live up to and mastering the art of saying a lot of words that mean absolutely nothing.

What's net? You going to start telling me stories about girls who slept with a guy who told them they loved them, but found out he lied to get what he wanted.

Politicians being full of chit as you like to call it is like telling me humans breathe air.

[RiverDog]

Has there ever been a politician in history who fulfilled all their campaign promises or didn't go back on them?

As far as POTUS's goes, the closest one I can think of is Jimmy Carter. But you're making my point for me. Defending Biden's actions by means of a campaign promise that are routinely broken by politicians, and especially in light of the fact that he's already broken several in just a couple of months, is absurd.

[RiverDog]

I can't say for sure how much of a factor, if at all, is as a result of the J&J pause, but today was the first day in Washington state that they opened up Covid vaccinations to anyone 16+ so at our mass vaccination clinic here in the Tri Cities they were prepared for a flood of people lining up to get vaccinated, yet there was a very large number of appointments that went unfilled, so many that they are worried that the state may shut them down.

[NorthHawk]

I was under the impression that Washington State had done a very good job in vaccinating the population.
Do you know what percentage has been fully vaccinated?

[RiverDog]

I was under the impression that Washington State had done a very good job in vaccinating the population.
Do you know what percentage has been fully vaccinated?

Overall the state is averaging slightly above the national average. However, I live in the conservative east side, and a person's politics and vaccine hesitancy are related. We've already vaccinated most of those that are enthusiastic about getting vaccinated and are getting into the group that are either against it or have reservations. However, being that it was the first day that they opened it up to all adults, you would have thought it would have offset to some degree the group that is more hesitant.

[NorthHawk]

It'll be interesting to see how many people decline the vaccine completely and how many just get a single dose and don't get the 2nd.

[RiverDog]

It's great to see a couple of Seahawks in Beast Mode and Russell Wilson getting behind the vaccination effort.

We're currently averaging 3.4 million shots a day, or about 1% of the total population. Over 50% of the adult population has had at least one shot. That rate is almost certainly going to start declining as we start getting into the groups of people that for one reason or another are hesitant or downright against vaccines.

The next fight, which has already started in some states, will be over vaccine passports. Some countries have already implemented them. I have a trip to Iceland planned for this June and I'll need to produce my proof that I've been fully vaccinated. Personally, I'm all for them. I do not have the right to put someone else's life at risk by not getting a free vaccine.

[RiverDog]

As expected, they restarted the J&J vaccine with the only change being that they added a disclaimer. Even with the added cases, the vaccine is still far safer than other drugs or treatments, including birth control.

From what I've seen, there's disagreement as to whether or not the recent downtick in vaccinations has anything to do with the J&J pause, but the two events coincide almost to the day. A plateau was expected as once those that are enthusiastic and able to manage setting and making to their appointment get their shot, we start getting into the percentage that are unable, hesitant, or outright opposed to getting vaccinated.

We are now swimming in vaccines here in the US. Appointments nationwide are going unfilled. By the middle of next month, any adult that wants a vaccine will have had the opportunity to get one. It's time that the government start releasing unused doses, particularly the 100 million doses of Astra Zeneca that hasn't even been approved, and either sell them at cost or donate them to areas of the world with an urgent need, like Brazil and India. It's an outrage that we have vaccines sitting on the shelves because our citizens don't want them while other areas of the world are in a full scale crisis.

[Aseahawkfan]

As expected, they restarted the J&J vaccine with the only change being that they added a disclaimer. Even with the added cases, the vaccine is still far safer than other drugs or treatments, including birth control.

From what I've seen, there's disagreement as to whether or not the recent downtick in vaccinations has anything to do with the J&J pause, but the two events coincide almost to the day. A plateau was expected as once those that are enthusiastic and able to manage setting and making to their appointment get their shot, we start getting into the percentage that are unable, hesitant, or outright opposed to getting vaccinated.

We are now swimming in vaccines here in the US. Appointments nationwide are going unfilled. By the middle of next month, any adult that wants a vaccine will have had the opportunity to get one. It's time that the government start releasing unused doses, particularly the 100 million doses of Astra Zeneca that hasn't even been approved, and either sell them at cost or donate them to areas of the world with an urgent need, like Brazil and India. It's an outrage that we have vaccines sitting on the shelves because our citizens don't want them while other areas of the world are in a full scale crisis.

More than a few folks I know are afraid to get them. They don't feel comfortable getting them for a variety of reasons which vary from watching Youtube/Online videos to friends influence to not trusting the government or the companies that made them. Some are Trump supporters, some are Democrats. Some are completely apolitical people who don't want to take something they're not sure about. I was surprised by the number of Democrat supporters who don't trust the vaccine. Most of them are older people. Younger people seem more likely to get the vaccine.

The government could try to force them I imagine. They will likely freak out and feel even more afraid. The Republicans will have an extremely strong running platform to attract voters if the Democrats force vaccination. The Republicans will sell them that they don't plan to force vaccination. It will be very easy for lawsuits to keep forced vaccination at bay until the next election cycle. The Republicans would try to beat that drum back into The White House and a majority in the Houses. It might work. Who knows.

Maybe an incentive program? If you get vaccinated, you get some kind of paid bonus? But maybe that would make people wonder why the government is willing to pay them to get the vaccine.

I've broken down the numbers to some of the skeptics including my mother, but they are just afraid. They aren't logical people. They are emotion based thinkers. Not sure how to incentivize them. Hopefully we can get to 70 or 80% without some of the skeptical people.

[RiverDog]

More than a few folks I know are afraid to get them. They don't feel comfortable getting them for a variety of reasons which vary from watching Youtube/Online videos to friends influence to not trusting the government or the companies that made them. Some are Trump supporters, some are Democrats. Some are completely apolitical people who don't want to take something they're not sure about. I was surprised by the number of Democrat supporters who don't trust the vaccine. Most of them are older people. Younger people seem more likely to get the vaccine.

Nation wide there's more hesitancy from younger people than older. Indeed, over 80% of adults 65+ have already been vaccinated. People are more reluctant to give them to their kids than they are get one themselves, and that will be the next hurdle once they get approved.

The government could try to force them I imagine. They will likely freak out and feel even more afraid. The Republicans will have an extremely strong running platform to attract voters if the Democrats force vaccination. The Republicans will sell them that they don't plan to force vaccination. It will be very easy for lawsuits to keep forced vaccination at bay until the next election cycle. The Republicans would try to beat that drum back into The White House and a majority in the Houses. It might work. Who knows.

Maybe an incentive program? If you get vaccinated, you get some kind of paid bonus? But maybe that would make people wonder why the government is willing to pay them to get the vaccine.

There are some employers that are giving bonuses and/or paid time off to get vaccinated and some that are beginning to mandate vaccinations as a condition of employment. I would rather that private sector step in and demand 'vaccine passports', like attendance at a football game or rock concert. Some countries have already established vaccination requirements of any foreign travelers.

I've broken down the numbers to some of the skeptics including my mother, but they are just afraid. They aren't logical people. They are emotion based thinkers. Not sure how to incentivize them. Hopefully we can get to 70 or 80% without some of the skeptical people.

I'm glad that you're taking it upon yourself to rationalize with people. I'm doing the same thing. I'm trying hard not to be overly dramatic or act as if I'm a know-it-all or talk down to others. I try to stick with facts, like how much more dangerous it is to take some prescription and over the counter drugs that we take for granted, how you are more likely to die in a car accident than you are to suffer serious side effects from a vaccine, how if it was in a pill instead of a needle that people wouldn't freak out, and so on. I really think that they ought to start making commercials comparing side effects of Covid vaccines with from various drugs, substances, and activities and drive the point home.

[Aseahawkfan]

Nation wide there's more hesitancy from younger people than older. Indeed, over 80% of adults 65+ have already been vaccinated. People are more reluctant to give them to their kids than they are get one themselves, and that will be the next hurdle once they get approved.

That's good 65 and up. I've seen the most resistance so far in people in their 40s and 50s, people of African and Latin descent of all ages, some of the Trumpers who don't want to do it because Democrats are in charge, and a few Democrats who just don't trust it. Not sure what the full demographics are at this point. I'm working on the people around me. Now that it's open I'm going to go in and get mine soon. I work these really weird hours and the appointments locally are not there. Apparently everyone and their mother where I live is getting vaccinated when it opened for lower aged people, so I might have to drive some. Though I'm told walking in my might get me vaccinated as many are canceling at the last minute. I might do that with a local CVS or Walgreens. The local Kaiser isn't doing it for some reason. Only certain ones are vaccinating. They are a good drive and hours that don't fit well with my sleep schedule.

I'll find a place around me soon.

There are some employers that are giving bonuses and/or paid time off to get vaccinated and some that are beginning to mandate vaccinations as a condition of employment. I would rather that private sector step in and demand 'vaccine passports', like attendance at a football game or rock concert. Some countries have already established vaccination requirements of any foreign travelers.

I would prefer to avoid requiring it, but we'll see how it goes. I think it would just scare people and cause unnecessary issues. I hope it is a last resort.

I'm glad that you're taking it upon yourself to rationalize with people. I'm doing the same thing. I'm trying hard not to be overly dramatic or act as if I'm a know-it-all or talk down to others. I try to stick with facts, like how much more dangerous it is to take some prescription and over the counter drugs that we take for granted, how you are more likely to die in a car accident than you are to suffer serious side effects from a vaccine, how if it was in a pill instead of a needle that people wouldn't freak out, and so on. I really think that they ought to start making commercials comparing side effects of Covid vaccines with from various drugs, substances, and activities and drive the point home.

If people are only going to go with science when it aligns with their political values or personal use, then what's the point of it? Science was being used to control and beat a global pandemic as intended. People should get on board with it. If this happens again in the future, we want our best and brightest working to beat these viruses.

[RiverDog]

That's good 65 and up. I've seen the most resistance so far in people in their 40s and 50s, people of African and Latin descent of all ages, some of the Trumpers who don't want to do it because Democrats are in charge, and a few Democrats who just don't trust it. Not sure what the full demographics are at this point. I'm working on the people around me. Now that it's open I'm going to go in and get mine soon. I work these really weird hours and the appointments locally are not there. Apparently everyone and their mother where I live is getting vaccinated when it opened for lower aged people, so I might have to drive some. Though I'm told walking in my might get me vaccinated as many are canceling at the last minute. I might do that with a local CVS or Walgreens. The local Kaiser isn't doing it for some reason. Only certain ones are vaccinating. They are a good drive and hours that don't fit well with my sleep schedule.

I'll find a place around me soon.

Agreed. The demographics of vaccine hesitancy are scattered. Most older people get vaccinated, unless they are diehard Trumpers (even though Trump is 4 square behind the vaccine) or a person of color. College educated people are more likely to get the vaccine. Women are more likely than men even though they are the ones more susceptible to adverse side effects.

There are some employers that are giving bonuses and/or paid time off to get vaccinated and some that are beginning to mandate vaccinations as a condition of employment. I would rather that private sector step in and demand 'vaccine passports', like attendance at a football game or rock concert. Some countries have already established vaccination requirements of any foreign travelers.

I would prefer to avoid requiring it, but we'll see how it goes. I think it would just scare people and cause unnecessary issues. I hope it is a last resort.

I don't want to see the government mandate it, but as an employee or customer, I sure as hell want my boss or the business I patronize to protect my health by assuring that I will not come in contact with someone that is a carrier of the disease.

If people are only going to go with science when it aligns with their political values or personal use, then what's the point of it? Science was being used to control and beat a global pandemic as intended. People should get on board with it. If this happens again in the future, we want our best and brightest working to beat these viruses.

Yup. The only virus to be completely beaten is small pox, and it was beaten because everyone got vaccinated. Polio, although not totally eradicated, has for all intents and purposes been eliminated. Both were the result of vaccines and the public's willingness to put their faith in them. As a society, we seem to have regressed in our thinking.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yup. The only virus to be completely beaten is small pox, and it was beaten because everyone got vaccinated. Polio, although not totally eradicated, has for all intents and purposes been eliminated. Both were the result of vaccines and the public's willingness to put their faith in them. As a society, we seem to have regressed in our thinking.

Science has become polluted, monetized, and politicized. You can find a study to support almost any belief because the underlying creation of the study can be manipulated to get the answers you want, especially the social sciences and environmentalism which has become more like a religion than a science as well as all the money being made off environmentalism.

It makes it difficult when science is used to control and defeat a virus for people who are naturally skeptical of science who can easily find answers online that provide an alternative view to find good information if their education level is insufficient to understand the underlying science and information within a given study or bit of information. I used to get mad at people that don't understand science. For me all of this information is so easy to process and my memory is sufficient (even better when I was younger) that processing all this information seems incredibly easy. Apparently it isn't easy for everyone. Even math is hard for some people much less understanding how they conducted a double blind study using a placebo versus a drug. Numbers look like so much mumbo jumbo to some folks like my mother who trusts people based on their status in the world over the underlying information given because she can't analyze that information well. I think most people operate in this fashion. Even bias towards whether you like someone or not is often displayed over the quality of the analysis or the inherent information in a given study or opinion. These kind of emotional biases are practiced I think by a majority.

It's unfortunate. But one thing I've had to admit over the years is like height or strength or any other trait, intelligence is not equally distributed over the human diaspora. I used to think everyone was of relatively equal intelligence and it was just pure laziness or lack of access as to why they didn't educate themselves. But the reality is some people can process information and knowledge at a far more rapid pace and to a deeper degree than others, so you have to figure out how to convey such information to folks who can't or process slower in a way that doesn't feel like you're talking down to them or causing them fear or confusion due to incomprehension. It can be hard sometimes.

But hopefully in time enough good information will filter down that people will be as comfortable with the COVID19 vaccination as they are with the flu vaccine.

[RiverDog]

Science has become polluted, monetized, and politicized. You can find a study to support almost any belief because the underlying creation of the study can be manipulated to get the answers you want, especially the social sciences and environmentalism which has become more like a religion than a science as well as all the money being made off environmentalism.

I agree. It's like my first statistics professor once told us about stats, that you can make almost any argument and find a statistic that will support it. The example he gave was two polar opposite statements: The highways are getting more deadly, and you can cite that the average annual death toll has been increasing, or you can say that the highways are getting safer, and cite the fact that the death rate per miles driven has been decreasing.

But I think the worst problem is the diffusion of news sources and the public's gullibility to believe anything they see or hear.

I

t's unfortunate. But one thing I've had to admit over the years is like height or strength or any other trait, intelligence is not equally distributed over the human diaspora. I used to think everyone was of relatively equal intelligence and it was just pure laziness or lack of access as to why they didn't educate themselves. But the reality is some people can process information and knowledge at a far more rapid pace and to a deeper degree than others, so you have to figure out how to convey such information to folks who can't or process slower in a way that doesn't feel like you're talking down to them or causing them fear or confusion due to incomprehension. It can be hard sometimes.

But hopefully in time enough good information will filter down that people will be as comfortable with the COVID19 vaccination as they are with the flu vaccine.

I think it's a combination. Yes, there are some people that are born smart. I've seen immigrants that have come here with nothing but the shirts on their backs and with little or no education yet their kids end up going to college and become doctors while there are others that are extremely smart that pass that trait and/or provide an environment to their kids that allow them to become highly intelligent.

Intelligence and education is one of the things that has led to vaccine hesitancy just as it has led to a polarized political environment.

[Aseahawkfan]

A little more incentive to get vaccinated. You can take off your mask outside if vaccinated according to the CDC. That might incentivize people some. My mother got vaccinated. She said it went fine. No problems or side effects.

[c_hawkbob]

Intelligence and education is one of the things that has led to vaccine hesitancy just as it has led to a polarized political environment.

What?!

First of all intelligence and education are two distinct measure an second, well all I can surmise is that you omitted a "lack of" somewhere along the line.

[RiverDog]

Intelligence and education is one of the things that has led to vaccine hesitancy just as it has led to a polarized political environment.

What?!

First of all intelligence and education are two distinct measure an second, well all I can surmise is that you omitted a "lack of" somewhere along the line.

Fair enough. I'll add "lack of" a formal education and/or intelligence to my statement.

My point is that whether it be due to a lack of education or a lack of the mental capability to process information, it has resulted in a failure to understand the science and history behind vaccinations and disease, and those that are deficient are more likely to be hesitant than those that do. You fear most what you understand least. Many have been overwhelmed by a lot of misinformation and don't have the ability or motivation to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Case in point is one of our neighbors, in her late 60's, no education beyond high school, not the sharpest tool in the shed. She told us that she's afraid to take the vaccine because she thinks it will change her DNA. She doesn't even know what DNA is (I didn't tell her that, though). I told her if she was that worried about it, to take the J&J vaccine as it uses a different technology that does not include genetic coding, but she wouldn't consider that one, either. It was like she wasn't even listening to me. She already had her mind made up that she wasn't taking no damn vaccine. It's pretty frustrating when you're trying to rationalize with someone that stupid and/or that stubborn.

Ironically, many of the people like my neighbor are also diehard Trump supporters, yet even though DJT has come out for the vaccine to such a degree that he wants it named after him, they still refuse to get vaccinated. The same lack of education/intelligence that influences their political persuasion is the exact same personality trait that influences their hesitancy.

[NorthHawk]

I admire you and others who step into what can be shark infested waters when these types of subjects arise. It's a delicate line to tread where it's hard not to
come across as condescending or a know-it-all and insulting others and getting your point across. I find it extremely frustrating, but one thing that has worked
for me in other situations is to point to others who they look to as authorities or knowledgeable and let them know that those people agree with my point.
In this case telling her that the whole Trump family has been vaccinated along with Trumps political inner circle (Wilbur Ross, Steve Mnuchin, Mike Pompeio and others)
as well as Fox News presenters like Hannity and Carlson have got their shots. That might help sway people towards getting vaccinated.

[RiverDog]

I admire you and others who step into what can be shark infested waters when these types of subjects arise. It's a delicate line to tread where it's hard not to
come across as condescending or a know-it-all and insulting others and getting your point across. I find it extremely frustrating, but one thing that has worked
for me in other situations is to point to others who they look to as authorities or knowledgeable and let them know that those people agree with my point.
In this case telling her that the whole Trump family has been vaccinated along with Trumps political inner circle (Wilbur Ross, Steve Mnuchin, Mike Pompeio and others)
as well as Fox News presenters like Hannity and Carlson have got their shots. That might help sway people towards getting vaccinated.

Thanks for the kudos. I agree with you about not acting like a know-it-all or wagging your finger at a person that is hesitant to get vaccinated. I've tried a lot of strategies, like telling them something that's easy to do the math with, such as the likelihood of them getting killed in a car accident, roughly 1 in 10,000 in any given year (35,000 deaths/330 million people), vs. the 6 deaths in 7 million shots of J&J, or more than 1 in a million. The lady I was trying to convince: Both her 90 something mother and her older sister got vaccinated and apparently they can't talk her into it, either, so I guess I shouldn't feel embarrassed at not being able to talk her into it.

I get the feeling that a lot of the anti vaxxers are rebels without a cause, that no one, especially the government, is going to tell them what to do and even if they feel it makes sense as conceding to a mandate or a recommendation is analogues to them of caving into more government control over people's lives.

[Aseahawkfan]

I got my first shot. Finally found a place around my house. Safeway started giving shots. Moderna vaccine. Gives you a little shot of energy when you first get the shot.

[c_hawkbob]

I got my first shot. Finally found a place around my house. Safeway started giving shots. Moderna vaccine. Gives you a little shot of energy when you first get the shot.

Good for you!

[RiverDog]

I got my first shot. Finally found a place around my house. Safeway started giving shots. Moderna vaccine. Gives you a little shot of energy when you first get the shot.

Excellent! My wife and I got a 'little shot of energy' after our first shot, too, but I'm attributing it to the psychological effect that enduring this pandemic has had on us. We've taken it very seriously and getting the shot was like crossing the finish line at the end of a marathon. I haven't seen my wife that happy and excited for months. She talked her head off for 30 minutes, not allowing me to get a word in edge wise.

Although it would be nice to have something to argue about, I'm elated that all of us in our little group are more or less on the same wave length when it comes to the vaccine. I'm a huge proponent of it. It boggles the mind what kind of shape the country would be in if we didn't get the vaccines when we did.