COVID19 Vaccine Information

[RiverDog]

My wife and I got our 2nd shot Saturday so we're part of the roughly 7% of the US population that has been fully vaccinated. I experienced some significant dizziness or light headedness about 6 hours after the shot and both of us had sore arms. Our next door neighbors received their 2nd shot at the same time/place and they both said that it "kicked their butts", but my best friend that's 83 years old said after his 2nd shot that he wondered if there was anything in the syringe. We all received the Moderna vaccine.

My advice for anyone that gets the vaccine, certainly the 2nd shot, would be not to plan on doing any driving or work with power tools for 24 hours following the jab. Side effects seem to vary greatly from person to person and there's no way of predicting whether or not you'll have side effects.

We've hit a plateau in the decline of infections, likely due to the predominance of the variants, and some officials are concerned that we could be seeing the start of a 4th wave. Governors are under a huge amount of pressure to relax restrictions so the next few months will be critical. Personally I don't see a problem loosing up some restrictions, like indoor dining, so long as they stay away from super spreaders like packed bars and nightclubs. There's not a lot of evidence that those types of restrictions have been effective.

[NorthHawk]

I'm glad for you. We aren't getting a regular supply up here. We're supposed to get more this month, but in BC we are vaccinating based on age so it looks like I won't get my 1st shot until around May at the earliest provided the supplies aren't interrupted. The J&J vaccine looks like it could be a real help. With the early results of no deaths or hospitalizations of those getting the vaccine, it could make it so all of the remote areas of different countries can be vaccinated
quickly with only 1 shot required. Keeping people out of the hospital is one of the biggest goals and that vaccine seems to be on the right track.

[RiverDog]

I'm glad for you. We aren't getting a regular supply up here. We're supposed to get more this month, but in BC we are vaccinating based on age so it looks like I won't get my 1st shot until around May at the earliest provided the supplies aren't interrupted. The J&J vaccine looks like it could be a real help. With the early results of no deaths or hospitalizations of those getting the vaccine, it could make it so all of the remote areas of different countries can be vaccinated
quickly with only 1 shot required. Keeping people out of the hospital is one of the biggest goals and that vaccine seems to be on the right track.

The other thing about J&J's vaccine being a good choice for remote areas and 3rd world countries is its storage requirements.

Our various state governments have turned the vaccine distribution into a real cluster phuck. Oregon is vaccinating 25 year old teachers before they're vaccinating seniors. Colorado is vaccinating teachers but they're b**tching about private schools in upper class neighborhoods getting it before urban schools. New Jersey was prioritizing smokers. Here in WA, Inslee was going to vaccinate the homeless before 65-70 year olds until Biden's team told him the same thing Trump's team had been telling him but he wouldn't listen to, ie open it up to 65+.

After they got health care workers done, it would have be so much easier and understandable if they used just one criteria, age. Instead, they're playing God by deciding which workers are more important, which people are at more risk, and so on.

However, it does seem to be going relatively well given the scale of it. We're at 1.7M doses per day, a number that should go well over 2 million/day by the end of the month. The big challenge is going to be acceptance.

[RiverDog]

More good news. They've just announced that Merck has entered into a deal with J&J to help manufacture J&J's vaccine, which has the potential of doubling capacity for the production of that vaccine.

This is a deal that was brokered by the Biden Administration, so my hat's off to them. Merck had their own Covid vaccine candidate but had to bail out of it due to poor results in the trials. It's nice to see that they can team up with a fierce competitor like this when were essentially on a wartime footing to end the pandemic.

[Aseahawkfan]

We'll see how it goes. Right now we're plateaued at 61,000 new cases a day, but we're re-opening. We can't afford to stay shut down any longer. I really hope this vaccine works and reduces the cases. Right now we're at about 1.5 per 1000 deaths in the United States, mostly in the upper age ranges and those with comorbidities. But we're economically headed for a technocracy where everything runs through a handful of enormous tech companies like Amazon for most commerce. We went from 5% of sales online to 20% during the pandemic. That is a very skewed economy. We can't allow that to continue as the job damage to a variety of industries is immense.

So more vaccines coming online the better. But it sure would be nice to see a greater reduction in cases than 61000 a day. Deaths is more important and we definitely would like to see a reduction in the death rate.

Regardless the freight train of re-opening is rolling. Government can't afford to stay shutdown.

[RiverDog]

We'll see how it goes. Right now we're plateaued at 61,000 new cases a day, but we're re-opening. We can't afford to stay shut down any longer. I really hope this vaccine works and reduces the cases. Right now we're at about 1.5 per 1000 deaths in the United States, mostly in the upper age ranges and those with comorbidities. But we're economically headed for a technocracy where everything runs through a handful of enormous tech companies like Amazon for most commerce. We went from 5% of sales online to 20% during the pandemic. That is a very skewed economy. We can't allow that to continue as the job damage to a variety of industries is immense.

So more vaccines coming online the better. But it sure would be nice to see a greater reduction in cases than 61000 a day. Deaths is more important and we definitely would like to see a reduction in the death rate.

Regardless the freight train of re-opening is rolling. Government can't afford to stay shutdown.

I don't mind the re-openings as much as I mind governors suspending their mask mandates. I think there's many businesses that have been shut down or severely limited that can operate safely, especially now as outdoor temperatures are rising. There's going to be private stores like Walmart and Starbuck's that will maintain mask requirements while the state says it's unnecessary, putting retail stores and restaurants in a very difficult position of having to defend a policy that their state claims is unnecessary. Even if they kept them in place one more month, it might have been long enough to where enough people got vaccinated they could get ahead of the variants. I expect to see another surge, at least in places like Houston.

We're up to 2 millions shots in the arm per day, twice what Biden had established during his inauguration, which was a lame goal even back then. From what I've seen, most are very well run, and now that the complication of the weather is subsiding, they should be able to push even more people through. I still don't like how they're managing the eligibility requirements, but so long as they keep jabbing people, it doesn't make any difference anymore.

I saw an article in the NYT that noted how much better much poorer countries in Asia and Africa are doing against the pandemic than the US and western Europe are faring. It shoots in the butt the theory that a better health care system results in fewer deaths. The poorer countries have younger populations, spend more time outdoors, and many got on top of the disease much earlier by implementing protocols earlier and with better compliance than occurred here and in Europe.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't mind the re-openings as much as I mind governors suspending their mask mandates. I think there's many businesses that have been shut down or severely limited that can operate safely, especially now as outdoor temperatures are rising. There's going to be private stores like Walmart and Starbuck's that will maintain mask requirements while the state says it's unnecessary, putting retail stores and restaurants in a very difficult position of having to defend a policy that their state claims is unnecessary. Even if they kept them in place one more month, it might have been long enough to where enough people got vaccinated they could get ahead of the variants. I expect to see another surge, at least in places like Houston.

We're up to 2 millions shots in the arm per day, twice what Biden had established during his inauguration, which was a lame goal even back then. From what I've seen, most are very well run, and now that the complication of the weather is subsiding, they should be able to push even more people through. I still don't like how they're managing the eligibility requirements, but so long as they keep jabbing people, it doesn't make any difference anymore.

I saw an article in the NYT that noted how much better much poorer countries in Asia and Africa are doing against the pandemic than the US and western Europe are faring. It shoots in the butt the theory that a better health care system results in fewer deaths. The poorer countries have younger populations, spend more time outdoors, and many got on top of the disease much earlier by implementing protocols earlier and with better compliance than occurred here and in Europe.

It helps when you don't have an idiot as your leader politicizing a virus like it gives a crap about politics. I'm surprised someone didn't keep track of who the virus killed more Republicans or Democrats to further engage in idiocy.

[Hawktawk]

Greg Abbott needed a diversion after his disastrous failure to protect the power grid . So whoop dee do let’s give the trumplican freedom fighter Covid deniers a bone . The bimbo Christine Noem from Dakota allowed a maskless 500k sturgus rally that’s led to many deaths and spread the virus all over the country . I don’t know if more republicans or democrats have died but the trumplican cult has surely been most responsible for spreading it around . Then they are the first to scream about being locked down . Better stfu about being pro life when you can’t be bothered to wear a mask and in fact burn them on capital steps. Flat earth society is alive and well . As for my vaccine I’m 61, moderate copd , hypertension etc, married to a medical provider and I still don’t qualify yet so whatever .

[RiverDog]

It helps when you don't have an idiot as your leader politicizing a virus like it gives a crap about politics. I'm surprised someone didn't keep track of who the virus killed more Republicans or Democrats to further engage in idiocy.

It kills more minorities, which we can assume are primarily Democrats, but it also kills more older people, that tend to be Republicans, so who knows.

I would assign at least 100K unnecessary deaths in this country directly to Donald Trump.

[RiverDog]

Greg Abbott needed a diversion after his disastrous failure to protect the power grid . So whoop dee do let’s give the trumplican freedom fighter Covid deniers a bone . The bimbo Christine Noem from Dakota allowed a maskless 500k sturgus rally that’s led to many deaths and spread the virus all over the country . I don’t know if more republicans or democrats have died but the trumplican cult has surely been most responsible for spreading it around . Then they are the first to scream about being locked down . Better stfu about being pro life when you can’t be bothered to wear a mask and in fact burn them on capital steps. Flat earth society is alive and well.

You mean South Dakota.

Agreed about Abbott. He's coming up for re-election in 2022. His suspending the mask mandates has politics written all over it.

As for my vaccine I’m 61, moderate copd , hypertension etc, married to a medical provider and I still don’t qualify yet so whatever .

In the meantime, veterans of any age or health situation can get the vaccine.

https://komonews.com/news/local/all-was ... 19-vaccine

I'm exceedingly thankful to veterans for their service but handing out vaccines as if they're medals or thank you presents is insane and is a good example of how f-ed up this vaccine prioritization plan is.

[Hawktawk]

I’m ok with vets . I’m not ok with politicians hooking up their rich donors like the despicable Ron Desantis of Florida . I’m sure it’s politicized similarly everywhere . I truly fear a 4 th wave right around the corner with cases plateauing even with REDUCED testing and now masks off, spring break etc.

[RiverDog]

I truly fear a 4 th wave right around the corner with cases plateauing even with REDUCED testing and now masks off, spring break etc.

Yep, me, too. It's going to be a race. Can we vaccinate enough people to get ahead of the variants? There's also a lot of no shows of people that haven't gotten their 2nd shot, which makes no sense to me.

I was able to visit my daughter and son-in-law this weekend for the first time since last August, and I'm planning a trip to Las Vegas to pick up our new motor home in less than 2 weeks. We're not throwing caution to the wind and will continue to honor the protocols, but it's a pretty good feeling to be able to go out without worrying about catching the virus.

[c_hawkbob]

Just got my first moderna shot today, get the second April 6. Yay!

[RiverDog]

Just got my first moderna shot today, get the second April 6. Yay!

Fantastic! I'm curious about your side effects. They seem to vary a lot, especially following the 2nd shot. Other than a sore arm, I didn't experience any side effects following my first shot and had just the sore arm and a feeling of light headedness after the 2nd, but both our neighbors said that the 2nd shot "really kicked their butts", with headaches, fevers, and chills.

It looks like our old friends the Russians are trying to spread mis-information about our vaccines:

Russian Intelligence Linked to Spread of False Info About COVID-19 Vaccines

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/rus ... tml?bcmt=1

I'm not sure what their motivation is. The pandemic effects the entire world, including the Russians. It's in everyone's interest to end it.

[c_hawkbob]

Zero side effects so far. didn't even feel the needle.

It was through work and my wife was on the standby list in case there was a no sho, she wound up getting hers today too. Now we'll have both had our second shot a week before we travel.

[RiverDog]

Zero side effects so far. didn't even feel the needle.

It was through work and my wife was on the standby list in case there was a no sho, she wound up getting hers today too. Now we'll have both had our second shot a week before we travel.

Yea, the gal that jabbed me had that needle in and out of my arm so fast that I barely felt it. I actually said out loud "is that it?" You're more likely to experience side effects after the 2nd shot. I wouldn't plan on doing any driving, operating power tools, etc for 24 hours following your 2nd jab.

Speaking of no shows, our mass vaccination clinics are having a lot of them, 20% on some days. Pisses me off when I think of all those that are desperate to get a shot.

[RiverDog]

The AstraZeneca vaccine is having its problems. They've paused it in several European countries and now prosecutors in Italy have seized a batch of it after a person died within 24 hours of receiving it.

The FDA is expected to approve the vaccine for use here in the US within the next few weeks, but hope they don't approve it merely because the bad press it has received might cause more anxiety for vaccinations in general and give the anti vaxxers more ammunition. Besides, with 3 vaccines already in distribution, it's not essential that we have it available.

[Aseahawkfan]

That AstraZaneca vaccine sounds shady. I will make sure to stay away from that one.

[RiverDog]

That AstraZaneca vaccine sounds shady. I will make sure to stay away from that one.

The issue is blood clotting, and they have not been able to associate it with the administration of the vaccine. The vast majority of health experts claim that it's safe. Taking any drug involves a risk/benefit ratio, and given the impact of Covid, it's far more riskier not to take it and fall seriously ill or die of Covid than it is to accept the very small risk that the vaccine could cause some complications.

The UK has been giving the A-Z vaccine for months, and they are beginning to reap the rewards of vaccinating a relatively large percentage of their population, over a third, and are beginning to open up again. Italy, on the other hand, is one of the countries that have paused the administration of the A-Z vaccine, have vaccinated less than 10% of their population, and they're going into another shutdown of their economy as the variants are running wild.

However, those folks that are making the calls to pause the distribution of it didn't come to town on a load of pumpkins, so if all those people have a concern and if I had an option of 3 other vaccines that don't have the same safety concerns, then I would hesitate, too.

Regardless of whether or not it's safe, I don't want to see it approved because I think it would harm the acceptance of the 3 approved vaccines. We have about 100 million doses of the A-Z vaccine sitting in warehouses stateside. I'd donate them to any country willing to administer them. Besides, we don't need them anyway. Unless we have a major production issue with multiple vaccines, we'll be swimming in them by mid summer.

[c_hawkbob]

Just got my second dose of Moderna, my wife gets hers in about an hour. Now I feel safe to drive to WV to see my brand new granddaughter!

[NorthHawk]

Just got my second dose of Moderna, my wife gets hers in about an hour. Now I feel safe to drive to WV to see my brand new granddaughter!

Some happy days ahead for you, Bob. Congratulations on the new addition to your family.

Regarding the 2nd dose, isn't there a 2 week space after vaccination before you are fully protected? I thought there was some type of time frame for the body to charge up
its defenses after the 2nd dose.

[c_hawkbob]

Regarding the 2nd dose, isn't there a 2 week space after vaccination before you are fully protected? I thought there was some type of time frame for the body to charge up
its defenses after the 2nd dose.

My Dr. didn't mention it. He did say that it takes a while for the body to build up the immunity but generally after the first shot I'm about 80% protected and after the second "you'll have zero percent chance of dying of covid". I told him we were travelling a week after the second dose and he just said congratulations. My impression was that it took more time after the first than the second but I could be wrong.

[RiverDog]

Regarding the 2nd dose, isn't there a 2 week space after vaccination before you are fully protected? I thought there was some type of time frame for the body to charge up its defenses after the 2nd dose.

My Dr. didn't mention it. He did say that it takes a while for the body to build up the immunity but generally after the first shot I'm about 80% protected and after the second "you'll have zero percent chance of dying of covid". I told him we were travelling a week after the second dose and he just said congratulations. My impression was that it took more time after the first than the second but I could be wrong.

Full efficacy for all vaccines is at least two weeks, but I wouldn't let that stop you from traveling. You're already 80%+ protected after the first shot and like your doctor said, out of the hundreds of millions of vaccines that has been administered world wide, there hasn't been a documented case of a vaccinated person dying from COVID.

I read where vaccine hesitancy has been coming down, which is great news. If the survey I saw is accurate, 62% of all American adults have either gotten the vaccine or plan to get one as soon as they can, 20% definitely won't or will only if they're required to get one, and the balance taking a wait-and-see approach.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-1 ... arch-2021/

Once they open it up to all adults, I'd like to see sports stars like Russell get their shot in front of a camera. I don't think we've done as much as we can to encourage people to take the vaccine.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm looking at the death chart. Doesn't appear to be dropping substantially yet. Hopefully by September it will drop. Either way we're re-opening. I don't think many can take this any more regardless of how it goes. We should have a baseline idea of the annual death rate from COVID soon. The government will start to operate with an idea of how many will die a year from COVID much like the flu. What is considered normal and what they have to watch out for.

[RiverDog]

I'm looking at the death chart. Doesn't appear to be dropping substantially yet. Hopefully by September it will drop. Either way we're re-opening. I don't think many can take this any more regardless of how it goes. We should have a baseline idea of the annual death rate from COVID soon. The government will start to operate with an idea of how many will die a year from COVID much like the flu. What is considered normal and what they have to watch out for.

What "death chart" are you looking at? In early January, our 7 day average number of deaths was over 3,000 deaths per day, now they're under 1,000 per day.

At this point, despite the fact that the new variants are more contagious and more deadly and that our number of cases are on the rise again, I'm feeling pretty good about our war against the virus. The vaccines are proven to work, the rollout is going extremely well with supply catching up with demand and nearly 3 million jabs per day, and the weather is warming up so people will migrate outdoors. Over 75% of the US population over 65 has had at least one shot, so the rise in infection rates shouldn't manifest itself in the same number of hospitalizations and deaths as previous surges. The economy, although changed by the pandemic, is well on its way to a full recovery.

Despite our dismal performance against the virus over the past year, something that we can't really blame on the medical community, we're absolutely nailing the vaccine rollout. We've vaccinated roughly twice as many people per capita as other industrialized nations. No other large nation has come close to what we've achieved.

It's a feather in our hat to our health care system. These vaccines were developed and manufactured in this country by the evil "Big Pharma", distributed by private companies like FedEx and UPS, and administered by a hugely complicated network of hospitals, pharmacies, and clinics. In the meantime, countries with socialized health care systems such as Canada, western Europe, and Japan, haven't come close to matching our performance even though we've face much larger logistical challenges due to our geographic and population differences.

[Aseahawkfan]

What "death chart" are you looking at? In early January, our 7 day average number of deaths was over 3,000 deaths per day, now they're under 1,000 per day.

At this point, despite the fact that the new variants are more contagious and more deadly and that our number of cases are on the rise again, I'm feeling pretty good about our war against the virus. The vaccines are proven to work, the rollout is going extremely well with supply catching up with demand and nearly 3 million jabs per day, and the weather is warming up so people will migrate outdoors. Over 75% of the US population over 65 has had at least one shot, so the rise in infection rates shouldn't manifest itself in the same number of hospitalizations and deaths as previous surges. The economy, although changed by the pandemic, is well on its way to a full recovery.

Despite our dismal performance against the virus over the past year, something that we can't really blame on the medical community, we're absolutely nailing the vaccine rollout. We've vaccinated roughly twice as many people per capita as other industrialized nations. No other large nation has come close to what we've achieved.

It's a feather in our hat to our health care system. These vaccines were developed and manufactured in this country by the evil "Big Pharma", distributed by private companies like FedEx and UPS, and administered by a hugely complicated network of hospitals, pharmacies, and clinics. In the meantime, countries with socialized health care systems such as Canada, western Europe, and Japan, haven't come close to matching our performance even though we've face much larger logistical challenges due to our geographic and population differences.

The deaths have dropped from the worst of it, but I'm talking a plateau. A 1000 deaths a day is still 365 thousand dead a year. This is where I'm getting the data. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html What we don't want to see is a rise in the death rate followed by the plateau. We want it to keep dropping.

We are at roughly 560 thousand deaths from COVID since last March. I'm hoping by September we're well under 365 thousand deaths a year. I don't want that to be our vaccinated rate of death. I doubt you want that to be our vaccinated rate of death either.

My point is regardless we are reopening. As I told you a while back, it's a matter of finding a baseline acceptable death rate and then going with that. We have to reopen and get the economy going again. I hope by September it is far lower than a 1000 a day. A 1000 a day would obliterate yearly flu totals.

I'm hoping we get to the flu baseline with COVID. Though these vaccines are supposed to be much better than the flu vaccine, so hopefully much lower death rate than we are at right now.

[RiverDog]

The deaths have dropped from the worst of it, but I'm talking a plateau. A 1000 deaths a day is still 365 thousand dead a year. This is where I'm getting the data. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html What we don't want to see is a rise in the death rate followed by the plateau. We want it to keep dropping.

That's not what you originally said, but I agree with what you're saying now. The death rate has leveled off at an otherwise alarmingly high rate, but it is down over two thirds of what it was a couple months ago. There isn't near the pressure on the health care system as there was this past winter, so it's much more manageable. Most of the increase in cases are in just 5 states, so it's not widespread. With one exception, Florida, home of most of the spring break parties, the large increase has been confined to the northern tier states. Most of those infected and admitted to ICU's are 25-50 and more likely to survive. They need to start targeting vaccines to these hot spots and make a big push to get as many needles into arms as fast as they can.

We are at roughly 560 thousand deaths from COVID since last March. I'm hoping by September we're well under 365 thousand deaths a year. I don't want that to be our vaccinated rate of death. I doubt you want that to be our vaccinated rate of death either.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "vaccinated rate of death." As far as I know, there hasn't been a documented case of a vaccinated person dying of Covid. The vaccines are that good.

My point is regardless we are reopening. As I told you a while back, it's a matter of finding a baseline acceptable death rate and then going with that. We have to reopen and get the economy going again. I hope by September it is far lower than a 1000 a day. A 1000 a day would obliterate yearly flu totals.

I agree that we are re-opening regardless of the numbers. I'm not quite ready to throw my mask away, but I do think that the medical community is being a little too cautious. Texas and Mississippi did away with their mask mandate over a month ago and haven't seen an increase, yet MI, PA, and NJ have some of the most restrictive measure in place and they're seeing an increase. At least in the sun belt states, IMO they can resume most of their pre-pandemic activities now, providing they're smart about it.

I'm hoping we get to the flu baseline with COVID. Though these vaccines are supposed to be much better than the flu vaccine, so hopefully much lower death rate than we are at right now.

There's no question about the efficacy of the vaccines. All of the approved vaccines work extremely well, even against the variants. They've been in the field for over 3 months and have verified the results of the clinical trials. In places like Israel, which has fully vaccinated nearly 60% of their population, they've seen their active cases and deaths plummet. Side effects are minimal and a non factor. The rollout in the US is going extremely well, much better than anyone expected. The weather is warming up, so the environment for the virus will get worse. We've vaccinated over 75% of those 65+. People are moving outdoors, making transmission less likely. Hesitancy to get the vaccine has been steadily dropping, with over 60% saying that they have either gotten or will get the vaccine ASAP. Combine those numbers with people that have had Covid and recovered thus have a natural immunity and we're approaching a very high percentage of people that have some sort of immunity. There's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

At some point, we need to turn our attention to the rest of the world. We have 100 million doses of Astra Zeneca that the government owns just sitting in a warehouse. I'd release them immediately and donate them to a hard hit country like Brazil, which is so bad that it's a virtual petri dish, a breeding ground for variants that will keep popping up that we'll have to deal with if they don't get their situation under control. A/Z hasn't asked for US approval, we don't need it, and even if we did approve it and start distributing it, the bad PR that it's received, whether it deserves it or not, will undermine confidence in the other vaccines.

[NorthHawk]

t's a feather in our hat to our health care system. These vaccines were developed and manufactured in this country by the evil "Big Pharma", distributed by private companies like FedEx and UPS, and administered by a hugely complicated network of hospitals, pharmacies, and clinics. In the meantime, countries with socialized health care systems such as Canada, western Europe, and Japan, haven't come close to matching our performance even though we've face much larger logistical challenges due to our geographic and population differences.

It was a world wide effort with scientists sharing information and data that led to an early development of the vaccines. It doesn't hurt that "Big Pharma" has sites in many different countries that assist in development/production.
The problem with Canada is lack of supply. We have to wait for the generosity of producing nations to get our supply and so we've only received about 10M doses so far.
The distribution systems are the same as yours using the major couriers and in some provinces pharmacies (each Province delivers their health care differently) if they have the freezer capacity.
The UK is doing extremely well with their program and I think is much further ahead than the US, but a much smaller population in a concentrated area unlike Canada with a sparse population spread across the 2nd largest country in the world.

I, too wonder about why the US doesn't release more Astrozenica vaccine as it isn't yet approved in the US. It looks like the Biden gov't is saying we don't want or need it but you can't have it either. If they do think of it as a strategic
resource, they should set a floor of how many doses they want in reserve and let the company that produces it send the excess out around the world to countries that need it. In the mean time trade and travel between countries will be
curtailed until those countries that aren't yet vaccinated catch up to those that are.

[RiverDog]

It's a feather in our hat to our health care system. These vaccines were developed and manufactured in this country by the evil "Big Pharma", distributed by private companies like FedEx and UPS, and administered by a hugely complicated network of hospitals, pharmacies, and clinics. In the meantime, countries with socialized health care systems such as Canada, western Europe, and Japan, haven't come close to matching our performance even though we've face much larger logistical challenges due to our geographic and population differences.

It was a world wide effort with scientists sharing information and data that led to an early development of the vaccines. It doesn't hurt that "Big Pharma" has sites in many different countries that assist in development/production.

I'm not claiming that the apparent success in vaccine development was solely an American venture, but it's clear that we were by far the major player.

The problem with Canada is lack of supply. We have to wait for the generosity of producing nations to get our supply and so we've only received about 10M doses so far.

I can't speak for Canada, but the EU got cheap, and they're paying for it now:

The EU seems to have approached the common bulk vaccine purchases with economies of scale foremost in mind—that is, using the continent’s market power to negotiate advantages on price. From a human and macroeconomic perspective, this made little sense, however: The overwhelming priority should have been priority and speed of delivery, since the potential infections avoided and economic savings from an earlier reopening of EU economies would have dwarfed any cost savings from cheaper vaccines. Non-EU governments, such as Israel and the U.K., that made quicker and less price-conscious purchase decisions have been more successful at acquiring early supplies.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/28/eu ... of-supply/

The UK is doing extremely well with their program and I think is much further ahead than the US, but a much smaller population in a concentrated area unlike Canada with a sparse population spread across the 2nd largest country in the world.

The UK adapted a controversial policy of prioritizing first doses over 2nd doses, so they've gotten more of their citizens at least partially vaccinated than we have. But in the United States, we've fully vaccinated 20% of our population, the UK 15%. Doses per hundred are virtually the same, 55 for the UK, 51 for the US. When you take into consideration the differences in geography between a small island nation and the 3rd largest country by area in the world, I would argue that the US is doing a much better job of vaccine distribution and administration than the UK.

As far as Canada's performance goes, I'm not buying the geography excuse. As you know, unlike the United States, which has large population centers spread across the width and breath of the continent, the vast majority of Canada's population lives within a narrow band within about 200 miles of your southern border. Additionally, we've been very successful even in very remote regions like Alaska where we've vaccinated 36% of the population, slightly above the national average. Some of the most sparsely populated areas in the country, like the Dakotas and Montana, are above the national average. Something else is at work.

The US is absolutely nailing this vaccine rollout, best in the world when all factors are taken into consideration, and I credit both the Trump and the Biden administrations. It's the one bright spot we've had during the pandemic.

I, too wonder about why the US doesn't release more Astrozenica vaccine as it isn't yet approved in the US. It looks like the Biden gov't is saying we don't want or need it but you can't have it either. If they do think of it as a strategic resource, they should set a floor of how many doses they want in reserve and let the company that produces it send the excess out around the world to countries that need it. In the mean time trade and travel between countries will be curtailed until those countries that aren't yet vaccinated catch up to those that are.

I agree. That's one area where I disagree with how Biden is handling the vaccine distribution. I agree 100% with taking care of all our citizens first, but it's clear that a 4th vaccine is unnecessary. We need to take a more global view of the pandemic.

[RiverDog]

Here's some excerpts from a good article on Canada's vaccine distribution problems, the "something else" that I referred to above:

To some degree, this is the natural result of living in a small country during an unprecedented global health crisis that has scrambled supply chains all over the world. Without much domestic manufacturing capacity to speak of, Canada had to sign advance-purchase deals with international vaccine companies. The country hedged its bet by mostly going with companies funded by Operation Warp Speed, and so far its strategy has been to overbuy doses in the hopes of securing enough to vaccinate all of its citizens. A mounting critique, however, is that perhaps Canada should have been more specific than “first quarter of 2021” in terms of arranging vaccine-delivery timing. Picard said that Canada, by not giving manufacturers a specific week, or even day, allowed them to push delivery until the outer limit of the quarter.

But Canada’s problems run deeper: Through a combination of bureaucracy and legislation, the country has slowly lost its drug manufacturers that were doing original R&D, its capacity to respond to potential pandemics early, and its federal clout in organizing national strategies for pandemic response and emergency vaccine rollout.

“Canada has watched its pharmaceutical industry slowly move out of here over decades, because they created an environment that was not conducive to investment in this country,” charges Van Exan, a semiretired vaccine-industry consultant who spent nearly 35 years at Sanofi Pasteur working on policy, immunization campaigns, sales, and product development.

He cites long-standing Canadian policies in three areas as being particularly antagonistic to vaccine makers, especially multinationals: patents, prices, and procurement.

Van Exan notes that Canada’s patent protection can be years shorter and much more complex than in other countries, such as the United States, which makes developing drugs in Canada less inviting. The Canadian government also has the ability to regulate drug and vaccine pricing—another turnoff. “And in fact, we’re in the process right now of adding even more teeth and more rigor to the price regulator than we had before,” Van Exan explains. (In Canada, provinces run partially subsidized drug plans, which is why control pricing is so popular.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ms/618516/

Although I never envisioned it manifesting itself via a pandemic, this is exactly why I've been arguing against socialized medicine. I'd love to hear I5 defend Canada's performance and their vaunted health care system. They are reliant, as is much of the rest of the world, on the United States to provide critical R&D in the field of medicine. We are subsidizing Canada's health care system.

[NorthHawk]

The problem is the preceding governments that did not value pharmaceutical production at home.
The socialized medicine has been in place since the 1960's but the drug companies began moving out after the 1980's when our gov'ts embraced smaller government and began relying on
international supply chains. It's fine when things are moving normally, but when extraordinary occurrences happen countries tend to close their doors. We've been pretty stupid about how
we've managed our life requirements in my opinion. We had a plan to avoid this after SARS and Ebola scares but didn't follow the recommendations and squeezed out the pharmaceutical
industry. We're now paying the price for ignoring the plan. It doesn't have much to do with overall socialized medicine as it's just a part of it and had our previous Governments been
forward looking, we wouldn't be in this situation nor discussing it. But those were political decisions, not medical decisions.

Distribution is a fact. We don't have the supply to really test it, but getting vaccines into places where there are 4 or 500 people is a difficult issue considering the earliest vaccines needed
extreme refrigeration. If we had the supply equal to that of the US, we would be on par, and that I am sure of. Btw, my wife's brother and sister in law are getting their 1st shots tomorrow
at Costco. I haven't heard yet when we will get ours but because of the lack of supply we won't get our 2nd shot for 7 or 8 weeks later as the decision matrix determined that it was better to
have 70% of the population have 80% protection than 35% of the population having 95%.
We'll see how it goes.

[RiverDog]

The problem is the preceding governments that did not value pharmaceutical production at home. The socialized medicine has been in place since the 1960's but the drug companies began moving out after the 1980's when our gov'ts embraced smaller government and began relying on international supply chains. It's fine when things are moving normally, but when extraordinary occurrences happen countries tend to close their doors. We've been pretty stupid about how we've managed our life requirements in my opinion. We had a plan to avoid this after SARS and Ebola scares but didn't follow the recommendations and squeezed out the pharmaceutical industry. We're now paying the price for ignoring the plan. It doesn't have much to do with overall socialized medicine as it's just a part of it and had our previous Governments been forward looking, we wouldn't be in this situation nor discussing it. But those were political decisions, not medical decisions.

The point is that because Canada "squeezed out the pharmaceutical industry" they've exposed themselves to a situation where they did not have the internal ability to deal with a serious medical crisis and are dependent on the United States and/or Europe to pull their tails out of the fire for them. The problems that resulted from, quoting the article, the "long-standing Canadian policies" that were "particularly antagonistic to vaccine makers" compromised their health care system's ability to respond. Can you imagine what would have happened the United States, and indeed to the rest of the world, if we "squeezed out" our pharmaceutical industry as could happen if we regulated it to the same degree that the Canadians have with their system, taking the profit motive out of drug manufacturing, as many in this country are advocating?

Distribution is a fact. We don't have the supply to really test it, but getting vaccines into places where there are 4 or 500 people is a difficult issue considering the earliest vaccines needed extreme refrigeration. If we had the supply equal to that of the US, we would be on par, and that I am sure of. Btw, my wife's brother and sister in law are getting their 1st shots tomorrow at Costco. I haven't heard yet when we will get ours but because of the lack of supply we won't get our 2nd shot for 7 or 8 weeks later as the decision matrix determined that it was better to have 70% of the population have 80% protection than 35% of the population having 95%. We'll see how it goes.

No argument there. Having an adequate supply is the first requirement of a successful vaccination program. My point was that the geography of your country has little to do with the problems you're experiencing with the rollout. If it was, it would be a problem for the US as well. You noted yourself that you have essentially the same companies, UPS and FedEx, providing logistical support. One of the things that may be different is that we're able to utilize our military to help in distribution and administration of the vaccines. The National Guard is running the mass vaccination clinic in my home town, and doing a fantastic job of it.

I'm glad that some members of your family are getting their shots and hope that you can get yours soon. Although I'm very selfish and nationalistic when it comes to a situation like this, I'm very much an advocate of helping our neighbors, and that means those in our own hemisphere, where travel and intermingling between our countries is more common than with those overseas. It's obscene that the Biden Administration is sitting on 100M doses of a vaccine that we haven't even approved while you guys have just 10M. I suspect that it has to do with politics, that Biden is afraid of the backlash that could result if he were to release the doses and a supply problem were to develop with one or more of the other vaccines, especially if he were to give it away.

[NorthHawk]

Playing politics often costs lives.
This pandemic has shown us two sides - the inaction of Trump early and the political moves over the years in Canada that
have left us dependent on others for a vaccine supply. Neither were good decisions for people.

[RiverDog]

Playing politics often costs lives. This pandemic has shown us two sides - the inaction of Trump early and the political moves over the years in Canada that have left us dependent on others for a vaccine supply. Neither were good decisions for people.

There's lots of blame to spread around, that's for sure. IMO Donald Trump is responsible for AT LEAST 100,000 lives that were unnecessarily lost simply due to his failure to advocate mask wearing. China's failure to reign in their wet markets and other practices was likely was the root cause of the virus. The US CDC made some critical mistakes early in the pandemic by not adapting the WHO test kits that were offered to them. The disjointed and wildly varying responses from state governments sowed confusion and mistrust.

Despite my taking a few shots at Biden, I do think that overall he's doing a very good job of handling the pandemic, much better than that of his predecessor.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's not what you originally said, but I agree with what you're saying now. The death rate has leveled off at an otherwise alarmingly high rate, but it is down over two thirds of what it was a couple months ago. There isn't near the pressure on the health care system as there was this past winter, so it's much more manageable. Most of the increase in cases are in just 5 states, so it's not widespread. With one exception, Florida, home of most of the spring break parties, the large increase has been confined to the northern tier states. Most of those infected and admitted to ICU's are 25-50 and more likely to survive. They need to start targeting vaccines to these hot spots and make a big push to get as many needles into arms as fast as they can.

I could have worded that better. That is my bad. But the rise and plateau is common in infectious disease. What we want is no rise and a continuous drop from the vaccine as more get vaccinated. The 3000 was a peak, but we had dropped to near 1000 a day prior to vaccination as the various waves hit. We're still too high. But I think we're only at 30% vaccination so we have a ways to go to reach that 70 to 80% herd immunity vaccination rate. I'm hoping by September we see the huge plummet Israel has reached.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "vaccinated rate of death." As far as I know, there hasn't been a documented case of a vaccinated person dying of Covid. The vaccines are that good.

I'm pretty sure you can understand that I mean rate of death with full vaccination like we have with the flu. As in even with a flu vaccine we have an expected rate of death from the flu within a range. We will likely have the same for COVID19 unless it is eradicated. The danger of dying from COVID19 will be reduced, but not eliminated unless it is eradicated along with its variants. It would be nice to reach a similar rate to the flu or lower given the efficacy of the vaccines.

There's no question about the efficacy of the vaccines. All of the approved vaccines work extremely well, even against the variants. They've been in the field for over 3 months and have verified the results of the clinical trials. In places like Israel, which has fully vaccinated nearly 60% of their population, they've seen their active cases and deaths plummet. Side effects are minimal and a non factor. The rollout in the US is going extremely well, much better than anyone expected. The weather is warming up, so the environment for the virus will get worse. We've vaccinated over 75% of those 65+. People are moving outdoors, making transmission less likely. Hesitancy to get the vaccine has been steadily dropping, with over 60% saying that they have either gotten or will get the vaccine ASAP. Combine those numbers with people that have had Covid and recovered thus have a natural immunity and we're approaching a very high percentage of people that have some sort of immunity. There's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

At some point, we need to turn our attention to the rest of the world. We have 100 million doses of Astra Zeneca that the government owns just sitting in a warehouse. I'd release them immediately and donate them to a hard hit country like Brazil, which is so bad that it's a virtual petri dish, a breeding ground for variants that will keep popping up that we'll have to deal with if they don't get their situation under control. A/Z hasn't asked for US approval, we don't need it, and even if we did approve it and start distributing it, the bad PR that it's received, whether it deserves it or not, will undermine confidence in the other vaccines.

We will have more information about the efficacy of the vaccines as the year goes on. A 1000 deaths a day is still far too many. We need that to drop to a 100 a day at most once vaccinated, hopefully even lower. But we'll see. Flu season is generally 30 to 60 thousand and these vaccine companies are hoping for a yearly vaccine for the revenues. The flu vaccine is only 40 to 50% effective. If this is 90%, I still don't understand why it wouldn't eradicate like other 90% vaccines. It's a matter of time until we find out.

Astrazaneca seems to have known clotting issues at this point. I guess we can pass on the Astrazaneca to a desperate country like Brazil even with the clotting issues. I won't be taking the Astra Zaneca vaccine myself if offered. I will get the Moderna preferably soon once it opens up for everyone mid April.

I'll use the beneficial article. The reality is they definitely had an issue with clotting, but they're not precisely sure why.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-benefits-still-outweigh-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots

They stopped the JnJ vaccine in North Carolina for some issues. Hopefully nothing important. I know the manufacturing process can cause issues as well. They have to monitor that. EBS may have had problems at one of their plants.

[Aseahawkfan]

There's lots of blame to spread around, that's for sure. IMO Donald Trump is responsible for AT LEAST 100,000 lives that were unnecessarily lost simply due to his failure to advocate mask wearing. China's failure to reign in their wet markets and other practices was likely was the root cause of the virus. The US CDC made some critical mistakes early in the pandemic by not adapting the WHO test kits that were offered to them. The disjointed and wildly varying responses from state governments sowed confusion and mistrust.

Despite my taking a few shots at Biden, I do think that overall he's doing a very good job of handling the pandemic, much better than that of his predecessor.

A monkey could have done better than Trump. And the monkey wouldn't have been tweeting and saying all the stupid. About the only thing his administration did right was getting the vaccination program going fast, which likely wasn't his idea anyway.

[RiverDog]

I could have worded that better. That is my bad. But the rise and plateau is common in infectious disease. What we want is no rise and a continuous drop from the vaccine as more get vaccinated. The 3000 was a peak, but we had dropped to near 1000 a day prior to vaccination as the various waves hit. We're still too high. But I think we're only at 30% vaccination so we have a ways to go to reach that 70 to 80% herd immunity vaccination rate. I'm hoping by September we see the huge plummet Israel has reached.

You're not taking into consideration those that have already contracted the virus and recovered. It is known that they will have at least some natural immunity to the virus, so we may not need to get all the way to 70% or 80% to, if not achieve herd immunity, be able to contain it and end the pandemic.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "vaccinated rate of death." As far as I know, there hasn't been a documented case of a vaccinated person dying of Covid. The vaccines are that good.

I'm pretty sure you can understand that I mean rate of death with full vaccination like we have with the flu. As in even with a flu vaccine we have an expected rate of death from the flu within a range. We will likely have the same for COVID19 unless it is eradicated. The danger of dying from COVID19 will be reduced, but not eliminated unless it is eradicated along with its variants. It would be nice to reach a similar rate to the flu or lower given the efficacy of the vaccines.

Apples and oranges. Only about 45% of all adults get an annual flu shot, and the vaccine is only 40%-60% effective. We've already vaccinated over 75% of 65+ adults and the Covid vaccines have proven to be much more effective against the coronavirus than flu shots are against influenza.

The biggest threat of the coronavirus isn't its mortality rate, it's the ability of it to spread and infect others.

There's no question about the efficacy of the vaccines. All of the approved vaccines work extremely well, even against the variants. They've been in the field for over 3 months and have verified the results of the clinical trials. In places like Israel, which has fully vaccinated nearly 60% of their population, they've seen their active cases and deaths plummet. Side effects are minimal and a non factor. The rollout in the US is going extremely well, much better than anyone expected. The weather is warming up, so the environment for the virus will get worse. We've vaccinated over 75% of those 65+. People are moving outdoors, making transmission less likely. Hesitancy to get the vaccine has been steadily dropping, with over 60% saying that they have either gotten or will get the vaccine ASAP. Combine those numbers with people that have had Covid and recovered thus have a natural immunity and we're approaching a very high percentage of people that have some sort of immunity. There's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

At some point, we need to turn our attention to the rest of the world. We have 100 million doses of Astra Zeneca that the government owns just sitting in a warehouse. I'd release them immediately and donate them to a hard hit country like Brazil, which is so bad that it's a virtual petri dish, a breeding ground for variants that will keep popping up that we'll have to deal with if they don't get their situation under control. A/Z hasn't asked for US approval, we don't need it, and even if we did approve it and start distributing it, the bad PR that it's received, whether it deserves it or not, will undermine confidence in the other vaccines.

We will have more information about the efficacy of the vaccines as the year goes on. A 1000 deaths a day is still far too many. We need that to drop to a 100 a day at most once vaccinated, hopefully even lower. But we'll see. Flu season is generally 30 to 60 thousand and these vaccine companies are hoping for a yearly vaccine for the revenues. The flu vaccine is only 40 to 50% effective. If this is 90%, I still don't understand why it wouldn't eradicate like other 90% vaccines. It's a matter of time until we find out.

We've administered a huge number of Covid vaccines, so there's already a lot of good information on their performance. The only unanswered question is how long will they last.

AstraZeneca seems to have known clotting issues at this point. I guess we can pass on the Astrazaneca to a desperate country like Brazil even with the clotting issues. I won't be taking the Astra Zaneca vaccine myself if offered. I will get the Moderna preferably soon once it opens up for everyone mid April.

I'll use the beneficial article. The reality is they definitely had an issue with clotting, but they're not precisely sure why.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-benefits-still-outweigh-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots

They stopped the JnJ vaccine in North Carolina for some issues. Hopefully nothing important. I know the manufacturing process can cause issues as well. They have to monitor that. EBS may have had problems at one of their plants.

I don't think they've been able to find a direct link to the reported blood clotting issues, but it's received enough bad press that they've poisoned the well with a lot of people. If it were the only vaccine available and the choice was it or nothing, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

The J&J issue is nothing to be concerned about. They had an unusually large number of people experience side effects that they already knew about. No one was admitted to the hospital. It's an overblown issue. Had the reactions been to a flu shot, we would have never heard about it. But since the press is keyed in on everything related to the coronavirus, it makes national news.

[RiverDog]

A monkey could have done better than Trump. And the monkey wouldn't have been tweeting and saying all the stupid. About the only thing his administration did right was getting the vaccination program going fast, which likely wasn't his idea anyway.

How dare you insult so many monkeys!

You'll notice that I said "Trump Administration" and not DJT. That man doesn't have sense enough to get out of the rain. But his administration did do some really good things, like insuring drug companies that the government would cover the cost of vaccines should they fail in trials, allowing them to start up production before the trials were completed. He also was a big promoter of vaccines in general. We can't blame Trump for the hesitancy of Republicans to get the shot.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're not taking into consideration those that have already contracted the virus and recovered. It is known that they will have at least some natural immunity to the virus, so we may not need to get all the way to 70% or 80% to, if not achieve herd immunity, be able to contain it and end the pandemic.

Irrelevant since the death rate is still at a 1000 a day, which is far too high.

Apples and oranges. Only about 45% of all adults get an annual flu shot, and the vaccine is only 40%-60% effective. We've already vaccinated over 75% of 65+ adults and the Covid vaccines have proven to be much more effective against the coronavirus than flu shots are against influenza.

Not in the slightest apples and oranges. The flu and COVID are spread the same way, which is why the measures taken to reduce COVID were effective against the flu.

The biggest threat of the coronavirus isn't its mortality rate, it's the ability of it to spread and infect others.

Not true. Not even sure why you wrote that. It most assuredly is the mortality rate. Regular colds are the same type of viruses and spread as easily, but we easily get over the yearly cold. COVID19's mortality rate is the reason it isn't another cold or flu. The mortality rate is absolutely, 100%, indisputably the primary concern of COVID19. Otherwise, none of the measures taken so far would have been taken even if it spread like it does. They wouldn't have been necessary.

We've administered a huge number of Covid vaccines, so there's already a lot of good information on their performance. The only unanswered question is how long will they last.

We still have quite a few unanswered questions, but it's looking good so far. Though 1000 deaths a day is still concerning.

I don't think they've been able to find a direct link to the reported blood clotting issues, but it's received enough bad press that they've poisoned the well with a lot of people. If it were the only vaccine available and the choice was it or nothing, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

The J&J issue is nothing to be concerned about. They had an unusually large number of people experience side effects that they already knew about. No one was admitted to the hospital. It's an overblown issue. Had the reactions been to a flu shot, we would have never heard about it. But since the press is keyed in on everything related to the coronavirus, it makes national news.

The North Carolina issues didn't sound like much other than what is expected.

The Astrazaneca clotting has been sufficiently documented that it may be a side effect that needs to be accounted for.

But we're only at a roughly 30% vaccination. We'll know far more at 70 to 80%. We should easily hit that by September. I want to see the numbers then. This real world science experiment is extremely interesting.

[RiverDog]

You're not taking into consideration those that have already contracted the virus and recovered. It is known that they will have at least some natural immunity to the virus, so we may not need to get all the way to 70% or 80% to, if not achieve herd immunity, be able to contain it and end the pandemic.

Irrelevant since the death rate is still at a 1000 a day, which is far too high.

Of course, the death rate is far too high. But that's not the point. The point is that if you're looking for herd immunity, you can add those that have had Covid to the number of people that have received at least one dose of the vaccine.

Apples and oranges. Only about 45% of all adults get an annual flu shot, and the vaccine is only 40%-60% effective. We've already vaccinated over 75% of 65+ adults and the Covid vaccines have proven to be much more effective against the coronavirus than flu shots are against influenza.

Not in the slightest apples and oranges. The flu and COVID are spread the same way, which is why the measures taken to reduce COVID were effective against the flu.

Yes, the flu does spread the same way, but that wasn't the point. The point was that it doesn't spread nearly as effectively as Covid does. The greatest threat from Covid is its ability to infect a whole lot of people simultaneously and overwhelm our ability to respond to it.

We've administered a huge number of Covid vaccines, so there's already a lot of good information on their performance. The only unanswered question is how long will they last.

But we're only at a roughly 30% vaccination. We'll know far more at 70 to 80%. We should easily hit that by September. I want to see the numbers then. This real world science experiment is extremely interesting.

The J&J vaccine rollout is relatively new. The other two had a nearly 3 month head start, so we may learn something in the next coming months. So far, even with the severe side effects that have caused 3 states to place a pause on it, there doesn't seem to be any new information that has surprised the experts.

When you consider how widespread these vaccines are world wide, they've already administered for more does than any other vaccine in the same time frame. At least as far as short term side effects, there's not much about them that we don't already know. The only wild card is if some manufacturing facility makes a mistake that doesn't get caught, like what nearly happened with the J&J vaccine.

To give you an example, in 2017, they developed a new shingles vaccine called Shingrex that was much more effective at preventing shingles than previous vaccine called Zostavax:

About 17 million people have received at least one dose of Shingrix, although the shots are recommended for more than 100 million people, spokesperson Sean Clements said. In comparison, he said between 20 million and 25 million people received Zostavax after 14 years on the market.

We're administering more Covid vaccines in one week than Zostavax vaccines in 14 years.