COVID19 Vaccine Information

[NorthHawk]

One of the big questions about the vaccines is if those that are fully vaccinated can spread the virus.
I was listening to a virologist who was saying we should all be wearing masks even after the 2nd dose because we don't know if we become unwitting carriers and may affect others
who haven't yet been vaccinated. As he explained it I inferred that he was saying we could be vaccinated but actually have the virus but be symptom free but they are not yet sure
if that's the case or if we just become like I said carriers. That will take a lot longer to figure out and we may not get a complete and accurate picture until well after this virus has
been contained and studied more.

[RiverDog]

One of the big questions about the vaccines is if those that are fully vaccinated can spread the virus. I was listening to a virologist who was saying we should all be wearing masks even after the 2nd dose because we don't know if we become unwitting carriers and may affect others
who haven't yet been vaccinated. As he explained it I inferred that he was saying we could be vaccinated but actually have the virus but be symptom free but they are not yet sure if that's the case or if we just become like I said carriers. That will take a lot longer to figure out and we may not get a complete and accurate picture until well after this virus has been contained and studied more.

They aren't certain about the possibility of a vaccinated person spreading the virus, but there is widespread agreement that at the very least, the chances of them spreading it is greatly reduced vs. a non vaccinated individual.

If they packaged the vaccine in a pill and didn't call it a vaccine and instead call it one of those names that's hard to pronounce, people wouldn't hesitate a second. How many times does a person take a drug prescribed by their physician and question its safety and efficacy? We ingest all sorts of chemicals into our bodies that we are unaware of or don't fully understand the safety risks.

[NorthHawk]

How true. Just look at people wanting antibiotics for the flu even though they aren't effective against viruses.

[RiverDog]

How true. Just look at people wanting antibiotics for the flu even though they aren't effective against viruses.

That's what I don't understand about the objections of these anti vaxxers. At some point, you have to trust the person, company, and regulatory agency that's selling you what ever it is you're consuming even if it's a bottled water or fruits and vegetables, that they handled it with care and didn't either knowingly or unknowingly introduce something into it that could make you sick. Why is it that they mistrust Moderna, Pfizer, and the FDA yet don't even think twice about the mom and pop winery or the street vendor selling sausages?

[Aseahawkfan]

That's what I don't understand about the objections of these anti vaxxers. At some point, you have to trust the person, company, and regulatory agency that's selling you what ever it is you're consuming even if it's a bottled water or fruits and vegetables, that they handled it with care and didn't either knowingly or unknowingly introduce something into it that could make you sick. Why is it that they mistrust Moderna, Pfizer, and the FDA yet don't even think twice about the mom and pop winery or the street vendor selling sausages?

Trust? That's funny. Trust is partisan now. Everything is partisan now. You believe who is on your side, sometimes not even that. The amount of partisan hate is bad. These two sides just casually toss every insult at each other for every terrible crime in history like it's nothing. The meaning behind the majority of these words don't even have impact any more they are so casually tossed out when referencing the opponent.

Science has become like religion. You can find someone to support whatever you believe and make it sound like science. Since the vast majority don't understand science including how to interpret studies or data that it's pretty easy to push a theory absent any quality evidence.

Best we can all do is try to break down the science for people who are hesitant. I'm fortunate in that both of my parents worked in the medical field and at least respect medical science, especially my father who influences my stepmother. My mother has massive respect for doctors. So that part is good. But my buddy's sister tried to get their mom not to take the vaccine and my buddy was like STFU, she is taking it. I'm glad most of my Republican buddies and Trump supporters aren't anti-vaxxers.

[RiverDog]

That's what I don't understand about the objections of these anti vaxxers. At some point, you have to trust the person, company, and regulatory agency that's selling you what ever it is you're consuming even if it's a bottled water or fruits and vegetables, that they handled it with care and didn't either knowingly or unknowingly introduce something into it that could make you sick. Why is it that they mistrust Moderna, Pfizer, and the FDA yet don't even think twice about the mom and pop winery or the street vendor selling sausages?

Trust? That's funny. Trust is partisan now. Everything is partisan now. You believe who is on your side, sometimes not even that. The amount of partisan hate is bad. These two sides just casually toss every insult at each other for every terrible crime in history like it's nothing. The meaning behind the majority of these words don't even have impact any more they are so casually tossed out when referencing the opponent.

Science has become like religion. You can find someone to support whatever you believe and make it sound like science. Since the vast majority don't understand science including how to interpret studies or data that it's pretty easy to push a theory absent any quality evidence.

The trust thing isn't all partisan. Donald Trump has come out for it, even wanted them to name it the "Trump Vaccine." Minorities, many of whom vote Democratic, have a huge problem trusting in the science of vaccines. And it's not just blacks that have a history of being used as the government's Guinea pigs. Hispanics are also more reluctant to get a jab than their white counterparts.

Best we can all do is try to break down the science for people who are hesitant. I'm fortunate in that both of my parents worked in the medical field and at least respect medical science, especially my father who influences my stepmother. My mother has massive respect for doctors. So that part is good. But my buddy's sister tried to get their mom not to take the vaccine and my buddy was like STFU, she is taking it. I'm glad most of my Republican buddies and Trump supporters aren't anti-vaxxers.

I know a number of people that aren't getting the vaccine. One of my neighbors, a devout Mormon, isn't getting it. Some of my friends from my former employer are very hesitant.

I have mixed emotions about the vaccine passports that some states have come out and banned. I can see the logic in banning them as it is an invasion of our privacy to force us to disclose what kind of medicines we have received, and I can understand the fear of the governments or private employers encroaching even further into our private lives.

But this is an exception. This disease is easily transmitted and almost unavoidable w/o a major change in our lifestyle. The government and private entitles have an obligation to protect their citizens, their employees, and their customers. This is a topic needs to be talked about on the national stage as part of a review of our strategies in dealing with the next pandemic.

[Aseahawkfan]

The trust thing isn't all partisan. Donald Trump has come out for it, even wanted them to name it the "Trump Vaccine." Minorities, many of whom vote Democratic, have a huge problem trusting in the science of vaccines. And it's not just blacks that have a history of being used as the government's Guinea pigs. Hispanics are also more reluctant to get a jab than their white counterparts.

Latins and folk of African descent have a hard time trusting the establishment, since they been screwed over and forgotten about so much. And there is also the education part of it.

Not like Latins and folk of African descent have any reason to trust Democrats either.

I know a number of people that aren't getting the vaccine. One of my neighbors, a devout Mormon, isn't getting it. Some of my friends from my former employer are very hesitant.

I have mixed emotions about the vaccine passports that some states have come out and banned. I can see the logic in banning them as it is an invasion of our privacy to force us to disclose what kind of medicines we have received, and I can understand the fear of the governments or private employers encroaching even further into our private lives.

But this is an exception. This disease is easily transmitted and almost unavoidable w/o a major change in our lifestyle. The government and private entitles have an obligation to protect their citizens, their employees, and their customers. This is a topic needs to be talked about on the national stage as part of a review of our strategies in dealing with the next pandemic.

We discussed this some time back. The government can require vaccination or deny access to services like travel.

As long as we get to 70 or 80% vaccination with a 90% plus efficacy vaccine, our numbers should drop like a rock. That's what I'm waiting to see. Otherwise, these 90% rates are inaccurate and full of crap. So we'll see in time.

[RiverDog]

Latins and folk of African descent have a hard time trusting the establishment, since they been screwed over and forgotten about so much. And there is also the education part of it.

Not like Latins and folk of African descent have any reason to trust Democrats either.

Agreed. There's also an education gap, both in terms of being able to arrange appointments and in understanding the science behind the vaccines. The point is that there's more than just politics that figure into the hesitancy equation.

We discussed this some time back. The government can require vaccination or deny access to services like travel.

Such decisions would be subject to court challenges. SCOTUS ruled that governments can't regulate church attendance due to the pandemic, they could just as easily declare mandatory vaccinations or vaccine passports unconstitutional as well. Employers may be on more solid ground in requiring employees to get vaccinated than the government, but they, too, may have to defend their decisions in court. I know that my former employer didn't want to open that can of worms.

As long as we get to 70 or 80% vaccination with a 90% plus efficacy vaccine, our numbers should drop like a rock. That's what I'm waiting to see. Otherwise, these 90% rates are inaccurate and full of crap. So we'll see in time.

I'm hoping that it doesn't take that high of a percentage to cause numbers to drop. There is a huge part of the population that has had Covid and recovered, hence they've developed a natural immunity. There's a couple other factors that cause one to be optimistic, such as the percentage of 65+ that have been vaccinated and the onset of higher outdoor temperatures. I'm thinking that by the time we get to 50% we should see a very large drop in hospitalizations and deaths. But we'll see. I've been wrong before.

At some point, perhaps in a couple of months, our attention has to turn to helping the rest of the world overcome the pandemic. Otherwise, the virus will continue to mutate and we'll be playing Whac-A-Mole trying to come up with booster shots that address the variants. It's not going away on its own.

[RiverDog]

On a positive note, one of our largest fruit and vegetable packing companies put on a pop clinic this weekend and vaccinated hundreds of farm workers, most of whom are H-2A people that are arriving from Mexico for the upcoming harvest season (asparagus harvest starts in a couple weeks):

In a push to protect essential farm workers from COVID-19 ahead of the upcoming harvest season, about 375 Douglas Fruit Company employees were vaccinated outside of the Pasco packing warehouse on Friday. The pop-up clinic was organized by the fruit producer in partnership with Safeway/Albertsons and the Washington State Tree Fruit Association.

While vaccine hesitancy has been a point of concern and discussion among health officials and local representatives, Douglas Fruit reports that the response to the vaccination clinic was overwhelmingly positive. In fact, all of the nearly 250 H-2A farm workers living in onsite worker housing chose to get vaccinated Friday.

The vaccine they administered was the one shot J&J vaccine, which is exactly how we should be utilizing it as it would be very difficult getting those folks back in for their 2nd shot. Hopefully that kind of acceptance is reflective of Hispanics attitude in general.

[NorthHawk]

On another positive note, there have been some cases where some Long Haulers have had their symptoms reduced or disappear after the vaccination.
Let's hope that it turns out to be a benefit to all of those with lingering conditions from this virus.

[RiverDog]

On another positive note, there have been some cases where some Long Haulers have had their symptoms reduced or disappear after the vaccination. Let's hope that it turns out to be a benefit to all of those with lingering conditions from this virus.

And in Texas, despite revoking the mask mandate and relaxing restrictions nearly 5 weeks ago, new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths remains flat.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... cases.html

That's one of the reasons why I'm looking more optimistically at the prospects. The vaccines and warmer climates are making a huge difference. Yesterday, they administered 4.6 million doses, well over 1% of the entire US population in a single day. That's probably going to come down a bit as they're shipping 85% less doses of J&J due to the production screw up, but on the other hand, a lot of states, including here in WA, open up appointments to anyone 18 and older this week.

[NorthHawk]

We can hope that Spring and Summer can have a positive effect in the fight against Covid and its variants along with the vaccines.
Maybe things will be largely back to normal by fall.

[RiverDog]

We can hope that Spring and Summer can have a positive effect in the fight against Covid and its variants along with the vaccines.
Maybe things will be largely back to normal by fall.

I don't want to claim that my opinion is more valid than those of some of the folks that have spent a lifetime studying viruses, but I get the sense that some of them are being overly pessimistic, perhaps intentionally, about this "4th surge", at least in this country.

I also think that Biden's team is making the right call on not changing the vaccine distribution formula to send more to hot spots like Michigan. It takes two weeks for a vaccine to build up immunity. They'd be better off ramping up testing and contract tracing as those will have more immediate results. The rollout is going so well I don't want to screw it up by fighting fires.

On a side note, I see where China is admitting that their vaccine is quite a bit less effective than first thought.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orFHqNwz4kQ

Good information on vaccination and variants. Looks like Israel at 56% vaccination rate has dropped substantially in cases and deaths.

[RiverDog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orFHqNwz4kQ

Good information on vaccination and variants. Looks like Israel at 56% vaccination rate has dropped substantially in cases and deaths.

Yep. And if you want more evidence of the effectiveness of the vaccines effectiveness, take a look at the sharp decline in nursing home Covid rates:

The vaccine works!

The abrupt decline in new cases and deaths in nursing homes has provided as dramatic, national proof that the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines can tame the pandemic.

The federal government shipped vaccines to nursing homes a week or more before most other groups. The statistics now show that even giving the first dose of the two-shot vaccine in nursing homes almost immediately caused new cases and deaths to plunge.

Nursing home residents and staff have accounted for 163,000 deaths nationally — a stunning one third of all deaths. Although nursing homes account for 34% of the deaths nationally, they account for just 5% of cases.

From late December to early February, new cases in nursing homes fell by 80% - twice the rate of the general population. Deaths inside facilities decreased by 65%, a much sharper rate of decrease than in the general population.

https://www.wmicentral.com/news/latest_ ... c7202.html

[RiverDog]

Uh oh. The Johnson & Johnson vaccine may be put on pause here in the US due to blood clots:

Federal health agencies on Tuesday will call for an immediate pause in use of Johnson & Johnson’s single-dose coronavirus vaccine after six recipients in the United States developed a rare disorder involving blood clots within about two weeks of vaccination, officials briefed on the decision said.

All six recipients were women between the ages of 18 and 48. One woman died and a second woman in Nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition, the officials said.

Nearly seven million people in the United States have received Johnson & Johnson shots so far, and roughly nine million more doses have been shipped out to the states, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u-s-c ... d=msedgntp

The J&J vaccine utilizes the same technology used in Astra Zeneca's beleaguered vaccine.

[Aseahawkfan]

Well, that sucks. I don't want no clotting. I need to get that Moderna.

[RiverDog]

Well, that sucks. I don't want no clotting. I need to get that Moderna.

This is a big mistake on a number of counts. First of all, there is no direct correlation of serious blood clotting and the vaccine. There is nothing in the information presented that would indicate it is anything more than a random coincidence that one would expect when 7 million shots are given. Even if there is a direct link, your odds of dying from a bee sting, one in 6 million, are greater than dying from the J&J vaccine, one in 7 million.

You are much, much more likely to die from Covid by declining a vaccine than you are from getting the shot. Roughly 125 out of every one million Americans between 18 and 48 have died of Covid since early last year. Think about that for a minute: Even if there is a direct link between the clots and the vaccine, which has not been established, you are over 600 times more likely to die from Covid than you are from the vaccine, and that's amongst the healthiest age group.

They have already said that this pause is temporary, that it's only going to last a couple of weeks or perhaps a month, so calling for a pause doesn't make a lot of sense. One of the justifications I've heard is so that they can get the word to doctors how to treat blood clots should they occur. That seems pretty incredible to me, that they have to interrupt a massive rollout just to get information to doctors? What does that say about our medical community? Doesn't the FDA have a means of sending a bulletin directly to all MD's?

Biden made a huge mistake by not stepping in and stopping the FDA, and I suspect he would have if not for his pledge to "follow the science", a buzz word phrase that I'm getting damn tired of hearing out of politicians, mostly Democrats. I see that phrase as code for "let me put my head up my a$$ before deciding". Biden is making decisions in the vacuum of a scientific laboratory, a sterilized bubble that has no connection to the outside environment. They will never be able to regain the confidence of an already skeptical public if their goal is to get 70-85% of the population vaccinated. This decision will cost lives and extend the pandemic. He's making the same mistake Europe is making in their abortion of a rollout.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not convinced following the science is just a slogan.
The other side of the coin is politicians overruling scientists - and we know how much politicians like to meddle to their perceived benefit.
America has enough vaccine to not have to worry about supply so a pause until it's figured out how and who is susceptible to clotting is in my opinion a prudent move.
I heard a comment yesterday that it might be just women who have recently given birth, and if so, that's a valid piece of information and worthwhile for the purpose
of administrating the vaccines safely. Whether it's just an anomaly in that cohort or if there is some increased risk it needs to be determined.

[RiverDog]

I'm not convinced following the science is just a slogan. The other side of the coin is politicians overruling scientists - and we know how much politicians like to meddle to their perceived benefit. America has enough vaccine to not have to worry about supply so a pause until it's figured out how and who is susceptible to clotting is in my opinion a prudent move.

I'm convinced that Biden is so preoccupied with showing a difference between his style and that of his predecessor that it's affecting his otherwise good judgment. If it not for the Trump effect, Biden may have overruled those agencies.

It's not just America. Because of the FDA/CDC's actions, J&J is delaying their roll-out in Europe. They also scared Australia into not buying J&J. South Africa is suspending their vaccinations of J&J. Additionally, their actions will increase hesitancy world wide for all vaccines.

I heard a comment yesterday that it might be just women who have recently given birth, and if so, that's a valid piece of information and worthwhile for the purpose of administrating the vaccines safely. Whether it's just an anomaly in that cohort or if there is some increased risk it needs to be determined.

If that were the case, then why not just issue a precaution for women 18-48? The odds of a woman having blood clotting issues from birth control medications is much higher than from the J&J vaccine:

"Millions of women everywhere take the contraceptive pill, and amongst the hundreds of side effects that come with the contraceptive pill — one of which is death — there's a 6 in 10,000 chance of getting a blood clot," TikToker alysselizabeth said in the video.

https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccine ... isk-2021-3

That's 6 in 10,000 for birth control meds vs. 6 in 7,000,000 for the J&J vaccine.

[NorthHawk]

If that were the case, then why not just issue a precaution for women 18-48? The odds of a woman having blood clotting issues from birth control medications is much higher than from the J&J vaccine:

That's why there's a pause for this one vaccine, they don't know yet. There are other vaccines that can be used, but they have to confirm or discover why it's happening and if it's worth the risk. Nobody should want a politician
overruling the data. That was tried and look how it turned out.

Is Biden going too far to be the Anti-Trump? Maybe and probably, but that may not be a bad thing when lives might be at stake.

[RiverDog]

If that were the case, then why not just issue a precaution for women 18-48? The odds of a woman having blood clotting issues from birth control medications is much higher than from the J&J vaccine:

That's why there's a pause for this one vaccine, they don't know yet.

They aren't going to find out in "days or weeks" as Fauci said this pause will last. It could take years before they know for certain whether or not this vaccine is responsible for some very rare issues of blood clotting.

There are other vaccines that can be used, but they have to confirm or discover why it's happening and if it's worth the risk. Nobody should want a politician overruling the data. That was tried and look how it turned out.

No one's talking about "overruling the data". There are other ways to get that information out so that people can make their risk/benefit decision other than stopping a nation wide roll out that has global implications.

Is Biden going too far to be the Anti-Trump? Maybe and probably, but that may not be a bad thing when lives might be at stake.

There are thousands of lives being lost every day in the US alone. This decision is going to cost far, far more lives by not getting vaccines into arms than it could possibly hope to save by preventing deaths from blood clotting.

[Hawk Sista]

There is no big impact to the # of vaccines given in the projected timeframe as our supply is so substantial that we have begun discussions about what to do with the excess. Biden is not perfect, but coming down so harshly on him for not over ruling the FDA seems a bit of a reach. There may be a link to women on birth control was my thought. It’s only impacted women who are of the age to use it.

[RiverDog]

There is no big impact to the # of vaccines given in the projected timeframe as our supply is so substantial that we have begun discussions about what to do with the excess. Biden is not perfect, but coming down so harshly on him for not over ruling the FDA seems a bit of a reach. There may be a link to women on birth control was my thought. It’s only impacted women who are of the age to use it.

If you think I've been coming down hard on Biden, you should have been posting in here when Trump was the POTUS.

Like I told North Hawk, the issue with the pause isn't the supply of vaccine in the United States. We have plenty of vaccine with Moderna and Pfizer to meet demand, so long as they're able to produce and deliver. The issue here in the US is hesitancy. We need 70%-85% acceptance, and we're not going to get there with the government sowing unreasonable fear and uncertainty with the 25-30% of Americans that are already skeptical.

Besides, the US is the 500 pound gorilla. What we do has a direct impact the rest of the world. Because of our government's decision, South Africa has suspended their administration of the vaccine. J&J has delayed their roll-out in Europe. The longer we delay getting needles into arms, the more chance the virus has of mutating. Because of its storage requirements and one dose and done, the J&J vaccine is ideal for the 3rd world. We need to take a global view of this pandemic.

I agree that it's entirely possible that the vaccine may pose an infinitely small risk to women 18-48. But the solution is way over the top. Although my first choice would have been to simply issue a cautionary statement, there is no reason why they couldn't have issued the pause for women of child bearing age ONLY and let men and older women continue to get vaccinated.

This is undoubtedly a war, and sometimes in war, you need a commander that says "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!". Time is critical. We are in a race, the vaccine vs. the variants.

[c_hawkbob]

This is not a Biden Pause, it's a CDC/FDC pause. Biden has not yet overridden the science in this (the pandemic) regard, why should he now? He vowed during campaigning that he would "follow the science", knocking him at all for doing so now is misplaced IMO.

[Aseahawkfan]

The clotting issue with the JnJ was all in women 18 to 64. But it was deadly in a few patients. May be some toxic mix with another medication such as birth control or some problem with the base. Apparently the JnJ vaccine uses a different base than Pfizer and Moderna.

This guy gives some great insight into what happened with the JnJ vaccine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFIxMGWrfTQ

[RiverDog]

This is not a Biden Pause, it's a CDC/FDC pause. Biden has not yet overridden the science in this (the pandemic) regard, why should he now? He vowed during campaigning that he would "follow the science", knocking him at all for doing so now is misplaced IMO.

Biden is the head of the federal government, and his administration has come out in support of the pause. Those people are his appointees. We're quick to give him credit for the roll-out, which to this point as gone exceptionally well, and consequently, we need to hold him accountable if the CDC/FDA makes a mistake. Biden was elected largely because people felt that he could do a more effective job of fighting the pandemic than his predecessor.

But whether or not it was Biden's call or not is irrelevant. It's a bad decision and is very likely going to cost lives. A pause lasing just a few days is silly. How much more information can they hope to gain in just a couple of days? And as I said above, I'm not saying that we should ignore the science, just the recommendations. There's other ways to deal with these developments rather than calling for a complete halt of the rollout. Why not just recommend that it not be given to women ages 18-48 at least for the time being until they've been able to research it some more?

And as far as this "follow the science" campaign promise of his goes, Biden has already gone back on a number of campaign promises, like halting border wall construction and gun control. He also asked us when he was sworn in to wear masks for "just 100 days", which is about two weeks away. Do you think he'll rescind his federal mask mandate after the 100 days elapse?

[c_hawkbob]

You seem to be assuming that this pause is a mistake. Who, among Biden's scientific advisors has came out against it?

Fauchi says it'll only last a few days and that: "At the end of the day, it could actually diminish hesitancy by saying, 'Boy, those people they are looking at that very carefully, and when they say something's safe you can believe it’s safe".

I'm just not seeing a reason for Biden to buck the science now.

[RiverDog]

You seem to be assuming that this pause is a mistake. Who, among Biden's scientific advisors has came out against it?

No one that I am aware of. But that doesn't mean that it's not a mistake. There's a whole lot of people that are questioning this pause, on both sides of the aisles and from within the scientific community.

Fauci says it'll only last a few days and that: "At the end of the day, it could actually diminish hesitancy by saying, 'Boy, those people they are looking at that very carefully, and when they say something's safe you can believe it’s safe".

Anthony Fauci is a fine man and I trust him more than any individual in Biden's administration. But he's a scientist and immunologist, not a psychologist or a sociologist. He is no more qualified to comment on how this pause will be perceived by the populace than you or me, perhaps less qualified as he lives and works within a bubble inside the beltway. How does he know, for example, how intercity blacks will interpret this pause? How does he know how die hard Republicans in the heartland will interpret it?

The issue isn't whether not the science behind the pause is valid. The question is how this will it affect hesitancy to accept the vaccine. They are two separate issues.

I'm just not seeing a reason for Biden to buck the science now.

Once again, no one's talking about bucking the science, which suggest that he ignore it. I am talking about how to deal with this new information. You seem to think that the only option was to call for a full scale halt and that to do otherwise means that we're going against the science.

[c_hawkbob]

"Bucking the science" is 100% what we're talking about! You think he should. He said he wouldn't, I'm glad he's not. Even if I do wish they'd never pushed the pause button in the first place.

[RiverDog]

"Bucking the science" is 100% what we're talking about! You think he should. He said he wouldn't, I'm glad he's not. Even if I do wish they'd never pushed the pause button in the first place.

Bullcrap! "Bucking" something means to go against it, to do something completely contrary to what the "science" is recommending, and that's NOT what I am suggesting. There have been no men or women over age 48 that have experienced severe blood clots, so how in the hell would it be bucking the science if Biden called a pause only to apply to women of child bearing age?

I also do not think that issuing an advisory vs. a pause would constitute "bucking the science". It's a question of how to deal with the facts, not to ignore them or discredit them as Trump would have done.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh stop it. You are too saying he should buck the science as it is the 'science' (in the Federal government the directors of the CDC and FDC are the science!) pushed the button in the first place and you want him to unpush it! All these contortions you're going through to make it look otherwise are ridiculous,

[RiverDog]

Oh stop it. You are too saying he should buck the science as it is the 'science' (in the Federal government the directors of the CDC and FDC are the science!) pushed the button in the first place and you want him to unpush it! All these contortions you're going through to make it look otherwise are ridiculous,

Oh, stop it yourself! The FDA/CDC directors are not "the science" any more than the boss at your power plant is "electricity." They do not create science. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the directors haven't donned a smock and put on a pair of goggles in decades. They're bureaucratic administrators. If anyone is looking ridiculous, it's you!

The point I am trying to make is that I do not think that the federal government, of which Joe Biden is the top dog of, fully appreciated the impact of their decision, specifically the amount of additional hesitancy they are sowing with a large number of the populace, when they made their decision to pause the J&J vaccine. It has nothing to do with "bucking the science."

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't even understand what is being argued. JnJ vaccine had some problems. Biden stopped it so they could do a quick look into it. Seems like a rare issue that should at least be looked at. If JnJ kept going and a sudden problem cropped up that was bad, it would damage vaccine distribution way worse as well as trust. Halting it for a short time to check for issues is smart and shouldn't damage confidence. Confidence would likely be more damaged if they let the JnJ vaccine keep going and find something worse going on that suddenly cropped up showing no real oversight. If this gets figured out and cleared up, then we'll be better for it.

[c_hawkbob]

Sorry Riv but you're completely up in the night on this and I'm really not sure why. Biden said he would follow the advice of the medical and scientific experts as a clear contrast to Trump using "these metrics" (pointing at his empty head). Are you mad because he's following the advice of the medical and scientific experts within the government? Whose advice do you think he should be following? China's? You Tube's? Take a poll?

I'm not even arguing about the advice itself, in fact have said that I personally wish they had never pushed the pause button in the first place. Makes no sense to me.

And BTW, I am electricity!

[RiverDog]

I find it incredible that otherwise smart individuals can't understand my concern, so in an effort to make my point more clear, here are a few experts that are parroting what I am saying:

"A global pause of the J&J vaccine seems excessive given the popular mythologies that are likely to arise from this statement for all vaccines," said Prabhjot Singh, a physician and global health expert at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.

Singh, who supports front-line workers in a clinic in New York City, said he believed the FDA and CDC statement would have an impact on those who are still deliberating whether to get a shot.

"I anticipate this announcement is going to increase vaccine hesitancy beyond J&J. It underscores the importance of direct conversations with folks by trusted messengers about their fears, concerns and options to be safe amidst a pandemic. We still have a ways to go before all communities are in the clear," he said.

But the fallout is likely to have implications beyond American borders, especially because global public health officials expected the Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccines to contribute substantially to vaccination efforts in the world's poorest countries.

Peter Hotez, a leading coronavirus vaccinologist and dean of Baylor University's National School of Tropical Medicine, said he worried that the pause would reverberate in low- and middle-income countries that were in line to use the adenovirus-based vaccines, which are easier to store and administer than the mRNA-based vaccines.

"In the U.S., we have other vaccine options," Hotez said in an email. "I'm worried about the impact for [low- and middle-income countries] given that adenovirus-vectored vaccines ... were supposed to be workhorses."

But the pause could become a tool for anti-vaccination activists like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and others who are distributing misinformation, who leaped on the news as part of their efforts to undermine faith in vaccines in general.

As it plays out, this is the sort of thing that increases the possibility of vaccine hesitancy across the board," said Dr. Steve Schrantz, an assistant professor of medicine at the University of Chicago, who specializes in infectious diseases. "It's a very hard thing to message, and it can put further doubt in people's minds."

And here's an incident of those fears manifesting itself in the form of canceled appointments due to hesitancy caused by the pause"

OSCEOLA COUNTY, Fla. About half of COVID-19 vaccine appointments scheduled for Osceola County’s homebound program have been canceled after the Johnson and Johnson vaccine was put on pause.

Officials who run the program say they used to rely on the Johnson & Johnson shot but have since switched over to Pfizer. They tell us even though they switched, patients have canceled their appointments due to overall vaccine hesitancy.

[RiverDog]

Sorry Riv but you're completely up in the night on this and I'm really not sure why. Biden said he would follow the advice of the medical and scientific experts as a clear contrast to Trump using "these metrics" (pointing at his empty head). Are you mad because he's following the advice of the medical and scientific experts within the government? Whose advice do you think he should be following? China's? You Tube's? Take a poll?

I'm not even arguing about the advice itself, in fact have said that I personally wish they had never pushed the pause button in the first place. Makes no sense to me.

And BTW, I am electricity!

In less than three months, Biden has already gone back on a number of things that he said he would or wouldn't do, so don't peddle this impression that he's simply keeping his word. And BTW, you never answered my question, so I'll state it again: Biden made an inauguration day request of the American public: "The first day I'm inaugurated to say I'm going to ask the public for 100 days to mask. Just 100 days to mask, not forever. One hundred days."

According to my count, we're at Day 85 since the inauguration, so two weeks from tomorrow on April 30th, Biden will reverse his federal mask mandate. Right?

[NorthHawk]

Here's where I differ from your viewpoint:

You say the President should let science rule the decisions.
His science advisers say to pause the rollout for a vaccine (other scientists may disagree, but his science advisers say it's the safest course of action).
You now want the President to overrule his science advisers and take the viewpoint of others who disagree with his hand picked counsel.

How is that any different from the former Presidents taking outside viewpoints over his own scientists? It isn't - outside of taking advice from the My Pillow guy.
There might be nothing to worry about with the vaccines that have clotting issues. But is it worth ANY life when alternate supply is plentiful?
Most of us believe it's a better decision to err on the side of caution, maybe for a while - maybe forever if lives might be at stake when it's not necessary
to put people at risk.

[RiverDog]

Here's where I differ from your viewpoint:

You say the President should let science rule the decisions. His science advisers say to pause the rollout for a vaccine (other scientists may disagree, but his science advisers say it's the safest course of action). You now want the President to overrule his science advisers and take the viewpoint of others who disagree with his hand picked counsel.

How is that any different from the former Presidents taking outside viewpoints over his own scientists? It isn't - outside of taking advice from the My Pillow guy.

There might be nothing to worry about with the vaccines that have clotting issues. But is it worth ANY life when alternate supply is plentiful?
Most of us believe it's a better decision to err on the side of caution, maybe for a while - maybe forever if lives might be at stake when it's not necessary
to put people at risk.

For the sake of argument, let's excuse Biden and his predecessor from the discussion. Whose call it was is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

I do not feel that the decision to place a complete pause on the J&J vaccine roll out placed enough weight on the impact this will have over vaccine hesitancy both here in the US as well as abroad. I also do not think that they gave fair consideration to a very reasonable, science based alternative, which would have been to at least temporarily stop using this vaccine on women 18-48 while allowing men and older women, whom have experienced no severe side effects, to continue to receive the vaccine.

What part of that argument do you not understand? What part of it would constitute "bucking the science"?

[NorthHawk]

It's more like bucking the scientists, some of whom are the best in the world in their field and have much more data than other scientists who do not.

I do not feel that the decision to place a complete pause on the J&J vaccine roll out placed enough weight on the impact this will have over vaccine hesitancy both here in the US as well as abroad. I also do not think that they gave fair consideration to a very reasonable, science based alternative, which would have been to at least temporarily stop using this vaccine on women 18-48 while allowing men and older women, whom have experienced no severe side effects, to continue to receive the vaccine.

I think that if the J&J vaccine is proven safe or only has a limited risk profile for a small group, it will enhance the acceptance as it has been thoroughly examined and the risks fully known.
The reason they don't just temporarily stop the vaccine for women 18-48 is precisely because they aren't sure if that is the extent of the group at risk. Therefor to define a group as at risk
might mean others are impacted when a full investigation would have shown their added risk as well.
I think it's simply the prudent thing to do when other vaccines are readily available.