The Trump effect

[RiverDog]

Trump gained a lot of power, first as the nominee of the party he ran for, then as POTUS. It remains to be seen how much power he can hold onto as a former POTUS, but I think he's showing that even losing an election convincingly isn't enough to sway his true believers, which shockingly included politicians (I'm not so shocked personally, but I think some in this forum are surprised). I do think a lot of that power will drain after Biden moves into the WH (no one likes a loser)...but I don't think it will go away, because a lot of people have invested so much, they have no choice but to keep going, and he gives them a reason to keep going by spreading more and more lies to support their bad choices. I have a feeling he's going to continue to be the voice of the party simply because he's an effective bully, and he has rabid supporters. The only way he can be stopped is if a big voice (either well known or not well known yet) from the republican party stands up to him in a way that no one has before him. I don't know who that voice is.

I think that's a reasonable take.

One of the things no one has mentioned is the effect the pandemic and the associated shutdowns are having on the country. My wife and I were just commenting how aggressive and nasty some of the posts on our neighborhood blog ("Next Door") have been. I posted a very politely worded request for people not to let their kids drive their ATV's on our horse riding trails (all on private property and strictly prohibited) and man, did I get attacked! People everywhere are on edge.

There were more riots in Portland last night. It's not clear what they were rioting about. The only clue is from posts on social media that it had to do with the BLM movement. Jezus, I'm getting tired of this chit.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prote ... uxbndlbing

It started in 2020, so I'm still optimistic.

[Hawktawk]

This is not primarily a media problem . It’s the voters, particularly the Trump base that are so low information they will believe anything . It’s a disgrace . Media is political for sure but facts are facts . It’s just what they choose to focus on based on the outlet . It’s not fake news. You couldn’t make up a story any worse than the current reality .

[Aseahawkfan]

This is not primarily a media problem . It’s the voters, particularly the Trump base that are so low information they will believe anything . It’s a disgrace . Media is political for sure but facts are facts . It’s just what they choose to focus on based on the outlet . It’s not fake news. You couldn’t make up a story any worse than the current reality .

The talking heads are part of the media. I'm not talking about some guy reading local or national news stories or some expert talking about something. I'm talking the commentary that frame the story in a certain way to inflame a particular political group or idea. People watch this crap like its factual news rather than commentary. They have a huge platform either on a major news station, the internet, or on social media.

Each side picks their favorite talking head and listens to their well-thought out arguments with supporting "proof" and goes with it. Just back and forth attacking each other.

Gets us almost nowhere but where we are now.

[RiverDog]

This is not primarily a media problem. It’s the voters, particularly the Trump base that are so low information they will believe anything . It’s a disgrace . Media is political for sure but facts are facts . It’s just what they choose to focus on based on the outlet . It’s not fake news. You couldn’t make up a story any worse than the current reality .

I'm mostly in agreement with Hawktalk. Although it's obvious that not all Trump supporters are morons and that imbeciles are not limited to the Republican party, the majority of them happen to back Trump.

There's people out there that actually believe Bill Gates is inserting microchips into the COVID vaccine so that the government can keep tabs on us. It's stupidity like that which gives these crack pot media talking heads a host in which to spread their garbage.

"Gates wants us microchipped and Fauci wants us to carry vax certificates,” reads one Facebook post with 22,000 shares. The same language has appeared on multiple posts on the platform.

“Due to the large number of people who will refuse the forthcoming covid-19 vaccine because it will include tracking microchips, the Gates Foundation is now spending billions of dollars to ensure that all medical and dental injections and procedures include the chips so that the only way to avoid being 'chipped' will be to refuse any and all dental and medical treatment,” another viral post on Facebook reads.

And here's what Bill Gates had to say about it:

"I've never been involved any sort of microchip-type thing," Gates said in a call with reporters on June 3, adding, "It's almost hard to deny this stuff because it's so stupid or strange."

"In a way, it’s so bizarre you almost want to see it as something humorous, but it’s really not a humorous thing,” Gates said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 171405001/

[NorthHawk]

This is not primarily a media problem . It’s the voters, particularly the Trump base that are so low information they will believe anything . It’s a disgrace . Media is political for sure but facts are facts . It’s just what they choose to focus on based on the outlet . It’s not fake news. You couldn’t make up a story any worse than the current reality .

That's why Trump "Loves the poorly educated" as he stated in his pre election speeches. They are much easier to scam.

[RiverDog]

That's why Trump "Loves the poorly educated" as he stated in his pre election speeches. They are much easier to scam.

They're also more like him: Dumb as a rock. Birds of a feather flock together.

[I-5]

Problem is, I know Trump supporters in Seattle, who I've known since elementary school and I consider friends, and most of them have college degrees...I get that they've always been republicans, but it's surprising that at least some of them have bought into his lies. These are the same friends who told me 4 years ago, 'hang in there, and wait for the next election'.

[Hawktawk]

Problem is, I know Trump supporters in Seattle, who I've known since elementary school and I consider friends, and most of them have college degrees...I get that they've always been republicans, but it's surprising that at least some of them have bought into his lies. These are the same friends who told me 4 years ago, 'hang in there, and wait for the next election'.

I have a best friend,multiple location fast food franchise owner. My brother. Most of my friends. My boss which is dicey.Lots of super intelligent people who support Trump, many believe theses crackpot stolen election lies.

Low information or perhaps wrong information would be better.I know my buddy watched Fox every day. My brother is on crackpot right wing websites. Low information definitely doesn't necessarily mean stupid although I think it's pretty shortsighted to america not to educate yourself through reputable print media. Give a damn about the conduct of a leader, especially the most powerful man on the planet.

I tuned in Fox news a day or so ago for the first time since 2016 and viola they are calling Biden the president elect. I have no idea what absolute idiots like Hannity and Judge Jeanine are saying, Lou Dobbs, or a useful willing idiot like Tucker Carlson. I peruse the news right now and the left definitely have their shock jock attack talking heads like Rachel Maddow, Joy Reid, never trump former R Joe Scarborough too but I have to say its still more attached to reality than this crazy right wing stuff.Im seeing more and more sitting congressional republicans coming on these MSM shows to express concern with this sedition madness in the congress.
Trump is of course attacking Fox now for being more balanced and the right wing crazies are on Parler and Newsmax now. The latter was the platform for Mike Flynn to advocate martial law in swing states . Trump true believers won't listen to bad news about their cult. And make no mistake that's what is is now. Its a psychosis, a sickness.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/louie-goh ... g?ref=home
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnbfcL

The unbelievable has become mundane. Why are people like all these seditionists not locked up? Is this not inciting violence? Calling publicly for the execution of the sitting VP!!! gee I wonder how pence feels about now.Trump has been tweeting non stop about a protest on Jan 6 in washington. Proud boys are already flooding into the city and plan to attend "incognito".

And then of course there's lying ted who said he would defend the constitution and now 11 senators going to throw a wrench into the vote counting on the 6th.

https://www.axios.com/multiple-senators ... 0dfd4.html

The worst are probably Cruz, former constitutional lawyer who has argued cases before the supreme court and James Langford who spoke out very early against withholding Bidens briefings, said "if it isn't corrected by friday Im stepping in" . Friday came and went, nearly 2 months have come and went and the dude was in the secret witness protection program and all of a sudden he's a 180 election denier . Must have got a few calls from the trumpanzee base. These are evil, despicable political animals. UIn American and Treasonous.

I guess we will see how it plays in 22 and 24. As has been pointed out 81 million supported Biden and polls currently show about a quarter of republicans who voted for trump have accepted the outcome. How do they feel about all this? Who will they gravitate to the next couple cycles.? Those who said enough is enough or those who utterly sh#T the bed for him in front of the whole world while ignoring urgent crisis to our nation?

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't much agree with this assessment of Trump supporters. I know a bunch of Trump supporters. Most of them are very intelligent people. They aren't the anti-vaccine, hate science types. Doesn't interest them much at all. Not to say there aren't some real ignorant Trump supporters as there obviously are, but these people are not just 74 million loons who love supporting a lying piece of trash like Trump. They're people with what they view as some very real concerns Trump was addressing.

The primary reason I hear for supporting Trump is distrust and dislike of the Democratic platform and party. They watch people supposedly associated with the Democratic Party tearing down statutes, defunding the police, talking about race in a way that sounds like they hate whitey when their children and grandchildren are white, taxation, lockdowns, and tearing down every American of standing they were taught to admire like Jefferson and Washington. They see a group that to them appears to hate America, hate people who are working and making money, and want to tear down the American way of life. This is the kind of stuff I hear most from my friends. What c-bob calls the right wing take on issues, which I don't disagree with. Almost every right wing commentator I have seen is pushing this type of thinking or more.

This painting of Trump supporters as dumb is wishful thinking. But I get it, the left wing media and Democrat supporters like to make Trump supporters seem like a bunch of dumb loons. And of course the fact they are supporting a guy who acts like Trump makes them guilty by association even though most Trump supporters I know very clearly see he is a loudmouth, lying prick. But they see him as the only man running for office who loves America compared to the Democrats and their platform.

I'm honestly not sure how you fix this viewpoint. We are at a great impasse in terms of culture. Many groups fighting against each other to determine the future of American culture. Hopefully we can reach some accord moving forward that blends the old and the new in a way that will sustain. Some of the old America needed to die, but a great deal of it needs to sustain and be renewed. It would be an even greater crime if once we finally reached a point where everyone can be free and prosperous in America that we tear the nation apart.

And the media is driving this hard. I don't care how many people tell me it isn't. I read I5 or Hawktawk, then go to CNN or MSNBC or some liberal media site and see where what they're talking about came from. I listen to my buddies or my mother, then go to Fox News, HLN, or one of the conservative talking heads and I see where there words came from. Not much original to speak of, just regurgitation of the propaganda on the side they're on. Just going back and forth at each other in a useless yelling match that the other side doesn't care to listen to. Neither side giving an inch. I don't think either side much cares any more. They just cast aside the illusion of caring about evidence and are just ready to hate each other.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm mostly in agreement with Hawktalk. Although it's obvious that not all Trump supporters are morons and that imbeciles are not limited to the Republican party, the majority of them happen to back Trump.

There's people out there that actually believe Bill Gates is inserting microchips into the COVID vaccine so that the government can keep tabs on us. It's stupidity like that which gives these crack pot media talking heads a host in which to spread their garbage.

"Gates wants us microchipped and Fauci wants us to carry vax certificates,” reads one Facebook post with 22,000 shares. The same language has appeared on multiple posts on the platform.

“Due to the large number of people who will refuse the forthcoming covid-19 vaccine because it will include tracking microchips, the Gates Foundation is now spending billions of dollars to ensure that all medical and dental injections and procedures include the chips so that the only way to avoid being 'chipped' will be to refuse any and all dental and medical treatment,” another viral post on Facebook reads.

And here's what Bill Gates had to say about it:

"I've never been involved any sort of microchip-type thing," Gates said in a call with reporters on June 3, adding, "It's almost hard to deny this stuff because it's so stupid or strange."

"In a way, it’s so bizarre you almost want to see it as something humorous, but it’s really not a humorous thing,” Gates said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 171405001/

The Bill Gates talk was there before Trump. I've been hearing about Bill Gates, George Soros, The Bushes, and so many other famous, wealthy people as part of a world controlling cabal for far longer than Trump has been in politics. Those ideas are not new to me at all.

[RiverDog]

I don't much agree with this assessment of Trump supporters. I know a bunch of Trump supporters. Most of them are very intelligent people. They aren't the anti-vaccine, hate science types. Doesn't interest them much at all. Not to say there aren't some real ignorant Trump supporters as there obviously are, but these people are not just 74 million loons who love supporting a lying piece of trash like Trump. They're people with what they view as some very real concerns Trump was addressing.

Agreed. I know a lot that are like our friend Mack, who is a very intelligent, Gen X, college educated, not at all a racist. They may not like Trump, but the Democratic alternative is worse. In many ways, I can sympathize with them. Nevertheless, there's still a TON of Trump supporters that are true morons, like a couple of my neighbors. Trump and the talking heads have sold them into thinking that the election was stolen.

I'm honestly not sure how you fix this viewpoint. We are at a great impasse in terms of culture. Many groups fighting against each other to determine the future of American culture. Hopefully we can reach some accord moving forward that blends the old and the new in a way that will sustain. Some of the old America needed to die, but a great deal of it needs to sustain and be renewed. It would be an even greater crime if once we finally reached a point where everyone can be free and prosperous in America that we tear the nation apart.

I don't know, either. I'm hoping that Biden will heal at least some of the divide, but I worry that he's going to get pushed to the left, especially if the Dems take control of the Senate.

[I-5]

Trump has a lot of ignorant supporters, but he also has a lot of educated and intelligent supporters...who happen to buy into all the fake news he spouts. That's the part that is so disappionting.

And asf is right, all this talk about Soros, Bill Gates, a global cabal etc was around before Trump. It makes me wonder, is there an equivalent conspiracy theory that democrats think about republicans, especially pre-Trump?

[RiverDog]

It makes me wonder, is there an equivalent conspiracy theory that democrats think about republicans, especially pre-Trump?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-cl ... unded-now/

https://www.tttruth.com/the-connection- ... ssination/

https://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/ ... up_th.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7229307/s ... -theories/

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... 020-448604

https://spectator.us/conspiracy-theorie ... tradition/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/2188/black ... -2000.aspx

[NorthHawk]

I don't think those are Democratic equivalents. Perhaps because of the cult like devotion to Trump their theories are magnified, but most of those links are about
all Americans or at least about concerns about the fairness of the elections that cross political boundaries. I don't see a Democratic equivalent of QAnon,
but I do see a lot of gerrymandering and voter suppression attempts mostly by Republicans that cause concerns on the left. But there certainly is an
appetite when elections are close and the electorate is divided.

[c_hawkbob]

Now Pence has given up the pretense of trying to stay above the sedition: https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/pence-we ... 16998.html

[c_hawkbob]

And as for conspiracy theories, most Dems are anti-conspiracy theory. That's like asking if there is a evolutionist theory out there to rival biblical creation story.

[Hawktawk]

Now Pence has given up the pretense of trying to stay above the sedition: https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/pence-we ... 16998.html

Yes I saw this except if you look closely he paraded out his presidential spokesman Marc Short to make the comments for him.

Like the ultimate weasel he is Pence is trying to have it both ways. He won't personally be on tape in 2024 saying these undemocratic things for his opponents to bash his unpatriotism but he will be able to point out to the trump party base what he did to support him. This is the freaking vice president of the united states now on the sedition train a day after a presidential lawyer called for his execution by firing squad. Wow that trump effect is strong.

Its most important what he does on Jan 6 but this really calls into question what he will do or say, what anyone other than those who staunchly opposed him will do or say. So far Pelosi, McConnell and last night Marco Rubio have had their homes vandalized by pro trump groups. This nation may yet be in its death throes, on the brink of civil war.

[NorthHawk]

I heard a comment from a Republican who said all these people on the Trump train are doing so in order to set themselves up for 2024 should they decide to run.
It makes sense if they are the chosen one to capture the imaginations of the loyalists and further the conspiracies. However, it's a dangerous road if it continues
and around half the voting public believes in some crackpot conspiracies and causes people to lose trust in democracy and its traditions and values. A better
politician can take it further than Trump did if some of the conventions of democracy that Trump tested aren't put into law.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

This is absolutely illegal. The president should be arrested on the spot. You truly could not invent a more bizarre story than the real one unfolding. Assuming we ever rid the white house of this felon he should rot in jail till he dies.

[c_hawkbob]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-just-want-to-find-11780-votes-in-extraordinary-hour-long-call-trump-pressures-georgia-secretary-of-state-to-recalculate-the-vote-in-his-favor/ar-BB1cqNSk?li=BBnb7Kz

This is absolutely illegal. The president should be arrested on the spot. You truly could not invent a more bizarre story than the real one unfolding. Assuming we ever rid the white house of this felon he should rot in jail till he dies.

I agree, this cannot be considered OK going forward. The must be some penalty for this outright sedition and it needs to extend beyond just Trump.

[NorthHawk]

It’s what happens when leaders surround themselves with yes men and women and no others. They become
deluded and actually believe lies and conspiracy theories. In this case that’s only one factor in this current saga.

[I-5]

I understand yes men, but it's surprising how far it extends past his close circle and into the cult.

[I-5]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-cl ... unded-now/

https://www.tttruth.com/the-connection- ... ssination/

https://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/ ... up_th.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7229307/s ... -theories/

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... 020-448604

https://spectator.us/conspiracy-theorie ... tradition/

https://news.gallup.com/poll/2188/black ... -2000.aspx

Thanks for the links, Riv. If anything it shows shows is that there isn't even close an equivalence like what we are seeing today. Some of those items aren't even democrat, they're just general conspiracy theories, and as for the dem ones, the fact I'd never heard of some of them show how mainstream they were. Lastly, regarding the 2000 election, yes it felt like cheating since it was decided in courts....but we all had to move forward, and I did. I didn't hear demand after demand after demand for a recount, accusing officials of their own party of cheating for the oppositio, or trying to get electors to change their vote. There's just nothing like the level of fake news coming out now.

[RiverDog]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/i-just-want-to-find-11780-votes-in-extraordinary-hour-long-call-trump-pressures-georgia-secretary-of-state-to-recalculate-the-vote-in-his-favor/ar-BB1cqNSk?li=BBnb7Kz

This is absolutely illegal. The president should be arrested on the spot. You truly could not invent a more bizarre story than the real one unfolding. Assuming we ever rid the white house of this felon he should rot in jail till he dies.

I agree, this cannot be considered OK going forward. The must be some penalty for this outright sedition and it needs to extend beyond just Trump.

When I first read Hawktalk's comments, I thought to myself "Oh, Jezus, here we go again." My reaction can be best described as that of the little boy that cried wolf.

Then just a few hours ago, between the completion of the Hawks game and SNF, I turned on the news and they replayed the actual recorded conversation and I couldn't believe my ears.

I agree that it's illegal as all get out, but in all seriousness, at this point, what can be done?

[c_hawkbob]

When I first read Hawktalk's comments, I thought to myself "Oh, Jezus, here we go again." My reaction can be best described as that of the little boy that cried wolf.

Then just a few hours ago, between the completion of the Hawks game and SNF, I turned on the news and they replayed the actual recorded conversation and I couldn't believe my ears.

I agree that it's illegal as all get out, but in all seriousness, at this point, what can be done?

Part of the expressed definition of election fraud is intimidation of an election official. In his desperation to convince anyone that is still listening to him that he's the victim of election fraud he blatantly commits the most outrageous example of the very thing that any of us has ever seen. He's conducting himself more and more like a mafia Don than a President with each passing day.

[RiverDog]

When I first read Hawktalk's comments, I thought to myself "Oh, Jezus, here we go again." My reaction can be best described as that of the little boy that cried wolf.

Then just a few hours ago, between the completion of the Hawks game and SNF, I turned on the news and they replayed the actual recorded conversation and I couldn't believe my ears.

I agree that it's illegal as all get out, but in all seriousness, at this point, what can be done?

Part of the expressed definition of election fraud is intimidation of an election official. In his desperation to convince anyone that is still listening to him that he's the victim of election fraud he blatantly commits the most outrageous example of the very thing that any of us has ever seen. He's conducting himself more and more like a mafia Don than a President with each passing day.

I agree completely, but you didn't answer my question. At this point, what can be done? Arrest him? On who's authority? On the basis of a single phone call?

[Hawktawk]

That's the point RD. Nothing can be done till at least the 20th assuming we aren't in a civil war on the 6th or 20th.

Im hearing former Secs of defense etc, 11 in all have made a joint statement basically reminding America that the military has no role in united states elections.
This man that will get on the phone and do that will do ANYTHING TO STAY. I will not relax until he's gone.
Presidents have too much power by far.

[NorthHawk]

Carl Bernstein made a comment that he hasn't verified, but it said some of the Military and Pentagon people had to tell Trump that no he could not do something and that it was against the law.
He didn't elaborate, but the discussion was about what he's trying to do to stay in power. Infer what you want, I suppose but we probably won't know the details for a long time.

[RiverDog]

Im hearing former Secs of defense etc, 11 in all have made a joint statement basically reminding America that the military has no role in united states elections.

Not that it makes any difference, but there's 10 living former defense secretaries.

Apparently it was Dick Cheney that led the effort to make the joint statement.

[Hawktawk]

Eat it mitch McConnel. FU DJT Two words. GEORGIA RUNOFFS.

If anyone had told me 5 years ago Id be absolutely giddy about Democrats being in complete control of the US government Id have said you were crazy. IM GIDDY!!!
This Trump/republican party does not deserve to run a post office. They are disqualified.

I'm sure I'll have policy differences with the democrats but i won't question their commitment to field a competent serious administration.

[RiverDog]

Eat it mitch McConnel. FU DJT Two words. GEORGIA RUNOFFS.

If anyone had told me 5 years ago Id be absolutely giddy about Democrats being in complete control of the US government Id have said you were crazy. IM GIDDY!!!
This Trump/republican party does not deserve to run a post office. They are disqualified.

I'm sure I'll have policy differences with the democrats but i won't question their commitment to field a competent serious administration.

Yeah, the Republicans can thank Trump for those results. Although we'll have to wait for exit polls to see what issues made the difference, but it seems logical to assume that his post election behavior really hurt the R's chances. But I'd stop short of giving them "complete" control. They have a slim majority in the House and the narrowest of margins in the Senate where they can't afford even one defection from a moderate red state Senator like Manchin.

I would like to thank the Democrats in advance for that $4,000 check they're going to give my wife and I. This will make it so I don't have to take any money out of my retirement accounts to pay for an expensive new motor home.

[Hawktawk]

Yes for all the hysterical socialism bad hand wringing Joe Manchin aint voting for socialism.No new green deal.

This runoff was a repudiation of Trump. I was pretty much glued to Steve Kornacki's analysis. Dems outperformed Biden in many areas. R turnout was down. Many independents and some republican who split tickets went back to blue. Many exit interviews revealed an anger among even some republicans about Trump protesting this election. Most probably heard the illegal arrogant call to Raffelsberger. Trump's visit to northern Georgia the night before the election, spouting conspiracies, calling Kelli Loughler "karen" with marine 1 in the backdrop actually hurt her, essentially when she announced her opposition to the election from the stage. Rich this woman worth 880 million wanted to be for the people while overturning their votes in the general.election

The math is bad for Republicans right now. 75% believe he won the election but 25% DON'T. The crazies are a much bigger number but they are a losing number against a united party.

[c_hawkbob]

I would like to thank the Democrats in advance for that $4,000 check they're going to give my wife and I. This will make it so I don't have to take any money out of my retirement accounts to pay for an expensive new motor home.

The point is not your motorhome, the point is the fact the you are spending that money instead of buying back stocks or increasing corporate profits with it, thereby actually stimulating the economy rather than just Wall Street.

And as long as we're being thankful I want to Thank Donald J Trump for so thoroughly convincing his train passengers in Georgia that the voting system was broken making it not worth their time to actually vote.

[RiverDog]

I would like to thank the Democrats in advance for that $4,000 check they're going to give my wife and I. This will make it so I don't have to take any money out of my retirement accounts to pay for an expensive new motor home.

The point is not your motorhome, the point is the fact the you are spending that money instead of buying back stocks or increasing corporate profits with it, thereby actually stimulating the economy rather than just Wall Street.

The stimulus payment made no difference whatsoever in our decision to buy the motor home as we put down a non refundable deposit in October. We were going to stimulate the economy with or without the $4000 freebie. The only difference is where the money is coming from. I won't have to withdraw money from my tax free retirement accounts.

And as long as we're being thankful I want to Thank Donald J Trump for so thoroughly convincing his train passengers in Georgia that the voting system was broken making it not worth their time to actually vote.

Like I said, we'll have to wait to see what factors influenced those elections, but I agree with you that Trump's post election behavior is a very likely cause. Perhaps that will cause some Republicans to distance themselves from that POS.

[NorthHawk]

We are probably right in guessing that the R's blocking of $2000 in favor of $600 had an effect that might just turn out to be the difference
in them losing should they both lose. People often vote with their pocket books and that's what the Dems have to figure out. They have to start giving those
who aren't in the privileged class some impactful returns for having voted them in. It will also mitigate the effects of the socialist label the R's stuck on them.

[I-5]

We are probably right in guessing that the R's blocking of $2000 in favor of $600 had an effect that might just turn out to be the difference
in them losing should they both lose. People often vote with their pocket books and that's what the Dems have to figure out. They have to start giving those
who aren't in the privileged class some impactful returns for having voted them in. It will also mitigate the effects of the socialist label the R's stuck on them.

Yup, people haven't forgotten the trillions in tax cuts to the wealthiest that was passed with lightning speed, and the excruciating nearly year long fight for a paltry $600 to average citizens, who pay most of the taxes. Then, finally talk of $2000 only to have the Turtle kill it. Nail. Coffin. Bye.

[I-5]

Today is the most embarassing day in the history of the Republican Party in my opinion...debasing themselves to appease a would be king. Even McConnell (among others like Romney and Sasse) recognizes the folly and absolute danger of even attempting a stunt like this. The most undemocratic thing that I thought I would never see in my lifetime.

[c_hawkbob]

Just got home from my swim and I just can't believe what I'm seeing on my TV. People here absolutely owe HT an apology. I can't believe these crazies have actually taken over the WH and we have congressmen hiding under their desksin their locked offices. Where the hell is the police response?! Why is the National Guard not having the Capitol Police six in this situation??

Trump need to be put in cuffs immediately.

[c_hawkbob]

Just saw a woman covered in blood being carted out of the capitol on a gurney. This is terrorisms plain and simple and every single person involved should be prospected.