Trump Lawyer Advocating Murder

[RiverDog]

And it ain't just the Oathkeepers, there are far right gun carrying nutjob groups like that all over the country (though I suspect much more here than out west, except maybe Idaho and Utah). It is an attitude that is pervasive in red states. These people are ready to start shooting on a word from Trump. You can downplay it and deny it all you want but you don't live among it.

There are counties in my neighborhood, eastern Washington, where Trump got over 70% of the vote. He won every county east of the mountains save one, WSU's home of Whitman Co. That's on par with other red states, including KY. We have the Republican candidate for Governor claiming that the election was rigged and still hasn't conceded (sound familiar?). We have county sheriffs that refused to enforce a gun control measure and are currently refusing to enforce the Governor's shutdown mandate. There is an active movement for the eastern half of the state to break off from western Washington that surveys show is supported by over 70% of the residents.

I'm not sure how long it's been since you've lived in WA or how much you know about the politics of the region, but in both Washington and Oregon, there is a dramatic difference between one side of the Cascades and the other. I am not trying to downplay your situation in Kentucky, but if you think that I don't live in an area that has the raw materials available for the types of possible activities that you and HT are having kittens about, you're sadly mistaken.

Look, I'm 90% sure Biden will be inaugurated and things will calm down in due course, but that 10% possibility of sh!t going sideways that I see is not just paranoia.

I'd put that 10% possibility a lot lower, but to each their own. Good luck sleeping at night.

[Aseahawkfan]

Those examples are not reflective of the situation now . Most of those groups were a fringe of a fringe , a fraction of the population . With this cult leader spewing lies to people brain dead enough to listen this is a 50 million strong group believing an election was stolen . That’s just a fact . Living in
Eastern Washington I know lots of people talking about going to the streets . I hope you and asea are right and it’s all talk but we never had a president tell white supremacists to stand back and stand by. Until now .

Not sure the Proud Boys are White Supremacists. Their leader is Afro-Cuban as far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio

Not all right wing groups are white supremacists. That's leftist garbage to minimize and degrade anyone against them and the far left. As soon as anyone starts talking about Western civilization or European culture, they are branded a white supremacists. Not sure why you allow yourself to be drawn into the left's hit job on anyone espousing anything other than what they are pushing.

You know the far left is as bad as the right with their Marxist, critical race theory, intersectionality, anyone that doesn't agree with them is a homophobe, transphobe, racist, or what not ideology. They even eat their own.

The far right has white supremacists, fascists, and the like, but the far left has their violent loonies too. We're caught between these two groups right now with a selfish narcissistic jackass in office who can't handle leading a nation.

[Aseahawkfan]

There are counties in my neighborhood, eastern Washington, where Trump got over 70% of the vote. We have the Republican candidate for Governor claiming that the election was rigged and still hasn't conceded (sound familiar?). We have county sheriffs that refused to enforce a gun control measure and are currently refusing to enforce the Governor's shutdown mandate. There is an active movement for the eastern half of the state to break off from western Washington that surveys show is supported by over 70% of the residents.

I'm not sure how long it's been since you've lived in WA or how much you know about the politics of the region, but in both Washington and Oregon, there is a dramatic difference between one side of the Cascades and the other. I am not trying to downplay your situation in Kentucky, but if you think that I don't live in an area that has the raw materials available for the types of possible activities that you and HT are having kittens about, you're sadly mistaken.

I just know I don't want to live much in Seattle or Everett. For all the talk by leftists of decriminalizing drugs, I don't want to live around the heroin zombies. They are terrible to be around. You may think it's ok to be hassled every time you come out of a 7-11 or walk to the bus stop by these glossy-eyed beggars who look like they would murder you if you weren't in public to steal your money to get high, but I don't want to be around them.

And you don't even support forced rehab. You just want these drug addled bums to wander around our neighborhoods looking for opportunities to steal and find money to fuel their addiction. Or worse at times. Maybe you don't have to live around it where you are.

[RiverDog]

There are counties in my neighborhood, eastern Washington, where Trump got over 70% of the vote. We have the Republican candidate for Governor claiming that the election was rigged and still hasn't conceded (sound familiar?). We have county sheriffs that refused to enforce a gun control measure and are currently refusing to enforce the Governor's shutdown mandate. There is an active movement for the eastern half of the state to break off from western Washington that surveys show is supported by over 70% of the residents.

I'm not sure how long it's been since you've lived in WA or how much you know about the politics of the region, but in both Washington and Oregon, there is a dramatic difference between one side of the Cascades and the other. I am not trying to downplay your situation in Kentucky, but if you think that I don't live in an area that has the raw materials available for the types of possible activities that you and HT are having kittens about, you're sadly mistaken.

I just know I don't want to live much in Seattle or Everett. For all the talk by leftists of decriminalizing drugs, I don't want to live around the heroin zombies. They are terrible to be around. You may think it's ok to be hassled every time you come out of a 7-11 or walk to the bus stop by these glossy-eyed beggars who look like they would murder you if you weren't in public to steal your money to get high, but I don't want to be around them.

And you don't even support forced rehab. You just want these drug addled bums to wander around our neighborhoods looking for opportunities to steal and find money to fuel their addiction. Or worse at times. Maybe you don't have to live around it where you are.

The guy that claimed the government can't and shouldn't force people take a vaccine to stop a pandemic advocates forced rehab. Right.

I am not nearly as tolerant of the "glossy eyed beggars" as you make me out to be. If they are threatening others, they should be arrested and jailed. My position on drug use is strictly related to non violent users. If they aren't bothering anyone or encroaching on other's property, then I have no right to insist that they live their lives in a certain manner. It's their body, they can do what they want to it so long as it's no skin off my behind.

I'm for making every practical opportunity available to chronic drug users/homeless to rid themselves of their affliction, but if we've learned one thing in treating substance abuse, it's that there is almost no chance of recovery if the subject doesn't want help. If they genuinely want to clean themselves up, then I have no problem spending taxpayer money to help them. But forcing someone who doesn't want it to accept treatment would be a huge waste of money and resources. The minute they're turned loose they'd be back on the streets shooting up. They have to want help and want to live a normal life. Many don't, and that's fine with me.

You're right, I don't have to deal with the types you described. The closest I come to a "glossy eyed beggar" is when I'm driving out the supermarket parking lot. I live in a semi rural neighborhood, 1 acre lots, some really nice $1M+ homes mixed in with a few hillbilly palaces. I wouldn't live in the Seattle area for all the tea in China.

[Hawktawk]

I know more about the topic of drug addiction than i wish i did. My daughter has been in the streets begging for drug money in much of her 38 years of life. She calls it "signing", sitting forlornly with a sign saying can you help god bless.Breaking into vacant houses to get out of the cold, sleeping in a tent in the snow in down town portland. She's been in rehab 3 times.

Lord knows we tried. Frankly its gotten so estranged we aren't even talking.Ive heard she's better but the next phone call will be placed by her or not at all. But she's a real person with a heart and soul and its easy to judge someone if you've never walked a mile in their shoes.Shes in the portland area which recently decriminalized drugs so hopefully the money will go to rehab centers and counseling.I heard people raise hell about that decision but when you're the heroin capital of America with it illegal you probably better try something else.

But back to the subject at hand....
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... story.html

This aint even about a stolen election, Its about wearing a god damn mask. This cult will get us killed yet because Trump will be gone hopefully on Jan 20 but these cretins, theses little orange baboon offspring aren't going away.

[Aseahawkfan]

The guy that claimed the government can't and shouldn't force people take a vaccine to stop a pandemic advocates forced rehab. Right.

I am not nearly as tolerant of the "glossy eyed beggars" as you make me out to be. If they are threatening others, they should be arrested and jailed. My position on drug use is strictly related to non violent users. If they aren't bothering anyone or encroaching on other's property, then I have no right to insist that they live their lives in a certain manner. It's their body, they can do what they want to it so long as it's no skin off my behind.

I'm for making every practical opportunity available to chronic drug users/homeless to rid themselves of their affliction, but if we've learned one thing in treating substance abuse, it's that there is almost no chance of recovery if the subject doesn't want help. If they genuinely want to clean themselves up, then I have no problem spending taxpayer money to help them. But forcing someone who doesn't want it to accept treatment would be a huge waste of money and resources. The minute they're turned loose they'd be back on the streets shooting up. They have to want help and want to live a normal life. Many don't, and that's fine with me.

You're right, I don't have to deal with the types you described. The closest I come to a "glossy eyed beggar" is when I'm driving out the supermarket parking lot. I live in a semi rural neighborhood, 1 acre lots, some really nice $1M+ homes mixed in with a few hillbilly palaces. I wouldn't live in the Seattle area for all the tea in China.

I already admitted they can force someone to get vaccinated.

People on heroin do not make rational decisions. That is why forced rehab for heroin is what should be done. Why you think a heroin addict can make a rational decision, I do not know.

I completely agree that jail time is useless. Throwing someone who is addicted into jail is a pointless endeavor that does next to nothing. Rehabilitation is not jail. It is a detox program to get them cleared of the addictive substance, so they at least have a fighting chance of making a rational decision to quit. They have zero chance of making a rational decision to quit while wandering the streets high on heroin or meth. They just continue to commit crime, debase themselves further, and hang out with other drug addicts further cementing their awful life choices.

I'm talking forced rehabilitation centers cut off from the addictive substance until they can get detoxed, clear their minds, and have a fighting chance of recovery. It is something that has not been tried to my knowledge. The only avenues I have seen attempted are jail time which is useless and ignoring their drug habit which also doesn't work.

If you continuously force rehabilitation funding the rehabilitation programs through tort law used against drug dealers and companies who allow these drugs to fall into general use, we can give these drug abusers a fighting chance while at the same time disincentivizing profiting off the sale of such substances. Why are you so hot to try some program like decriminalization which leaves these drug zombies walking the streets debasing themselves, committing petty crime, and engaging in all kinds of terrible behavior that society has to bear the cost of rather than a rigorous and constant rehabilitation program combined with lawyers using tort law to punish drug dealers who irresponsibly allow this to happen.

This seems like a far more intelligent and effective use of our resources. This whole you need to want to get off drugs is bunk. You don't make rational decisions why using this junk. The more times you get clean the better chance you have of making that rational decision to stay clean. Tort law has been far more effective a means to keep negative actors in society from scumbaggery than making something completely illegal.

It's not right to subject citizens to clean shooting zones using their taxpayer dollars to allow people to shoot up on heroin, wander around the streets high, and just overlook everything like they are implying. Is your preference really to pay for these people to shoot up heroin and let them wander around high looking for money to fuel their habit? That seems like the better idea than continuous forced rehabilitation?

[Aseahawkfan]

I know more about the topic of drug addiction than i wish i did. My daughter has been in the streets begging for drug money in much of her 38 years of life. She calls it "signing", sitting forlornly with a sign saying can you help god bless.Breaking into vacant houses to get out of the cold, sleeping in a tent in the snow in down town portland. She's been in rehab 3 times.

Lord knows we tried. Frankly its gotten so estranged we aren't even talking.Ive heard she's better but the next phone call will be placed by her or not at all. But she's a real person with a heart and soul and its easy to judge someone if you've never walked a mile in their shoes.Shes in the portland area which recently decriminalized drugs so hopefully the money will go to rehab centers and counseling.I heard people raise hell about that decision but when you're the heroin capital of America with it illegal you probably better try something else.

But back to the subject at hand....
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... story.html

This aint even about a stolen election, Its about wearing a god damn mask. This cult will get us killed yet because Trump will be gone hopefully on Jan 20 but these cretins, theses little orange baboon offspring aren't going away.

Heroin is a terrible drug. Worst drug ever along with the other opiates. Never seen a drug so addictive that it takes over your mind. We live in Washington State. I've seen people use pot, acid, cocaine, meth, speed, crank, and a variety of other drugs. I've never seen any drug destroy your life like heroin and it's associated opiates like oxycontin. Maybe the crack epidemic in the 80s was the closest I've seen. Anyone who can look at these heroin and opiate addicts and just think that they're capable of rational decision making is nuts to me. Heroin and opiates are slave drugs. Once you get addicted, very hard to recover. They will consume your life.

Letting a slave drug like heroin or other opiates gain control over your people without moving to counter is a terrible idea in my opinion. Jail is useless, but forced and continuous rehabilitation is a better path forward than decriminalization and areas where they just get to shoot up again and again. We should be using our most powerful brain adjusting techniques to make sure they learn heroin and opiates are poison. No one needs to be taking this slave poison.

[RiverDog]

Heroin is a terrible drug. Worst drug ever along with the other opiates. Never seen a drug so addictive that it takes over your mind. We live in Washington State. I've seen people use pot, acid, cocaine, meth, speed, crank, and a variety of other drugs. I've never seen any drug destroy your life like heroin and it's associated opiates like oxycontin. Maybe the crack epidemic in the 80s was the closest I've seen. Anyone who can look at these heroin and opiate addicts and just think that they're capable of rational decision making is nuts to me. Heroin and opiates are slave drugs. Once you get addicted, very hard to recover. They will consume your life.

Letting a slave drug like heroin or other opiates gain control over your people without moving to counter is a terrible idea in my opinion. Jail is useless, but forced and continuous rehabilitation is a better path forward than decriminalization and areas where they just get to shoot up again and again. We should be using our most powerful brain adjusting techniques to make sure they learn heroin and opiates are poison. No one needs to be taking this slave poison.

Forced rehab doesn't work. The only way to rehabilitate a drug user is if they want to be rehabbed, and even then, the odds of a successful and lasting breaking of the habit is 50% at best.

If a person wants to F-up their bodies and their lives, then that's their decision. What I want, and will always support, is that they be given an option, a way to rid themselves of their addiction. But they have to do so willingly. Any substance abuse counselor will tell you that the first step to recovery is recognition of the problem.

[Hawktawk]

Heroin is a terrible drug. Worst drug ever along with the other opiates. Never seen a drug so addictive that it takes over your mind. We live in Washington State. I've seen people use pot, acid, cocaine, meth, speed, crank, and a variety of other drugs. I've never seen any drug destroy your life like heroin and it's associated opiates like oxycontin. Maybe the crack epidemic in the 80s was the closest I've seen. Anyone who can look at these heroin and opiate addicts and just think that they're capable of rational decision making is nuts to me. Heroin and opiates are slave drugs. Once you get addicted, very hard to recover. They will consume your life.

Letting a slave drug like heroin or other opiates gain control over your people without moving to counter is a terrible idea in my opinion. Jail is useless, but forced and continuous rehabilitation is a better path forward than decriminalization and areas where they just get to shoot up again and again. We should be using our most powerful brain adjusting techniques to make sure they learn heroin and opiates are poison. No one needs to be taking this slave poison.

Other than Meth which is similar to crank IMO and shooting heroin I tried all of that stuff in the day. I agree with your take. With a sister and 2 kids struggling with it to one degree or another its a drug people throw their lives away for, prostitute their bodies. It makes them unable to function in society. Then they clean up which is the sickest they have ever been in withdrawal then they turn around and do it again.

All drugs including alcohol kick your ass but heroin is the devil on this earth Im for life for heroin kingpins.

[mykc14]

Forced rehab doesn't work. The only way to rehabilitate a drug user is if they want to be rehabbed, and even then, the odds of a successful and lasting breaking of the habit is 50% at best.

If a person wants to F-up their bodies and their lives, then that's their decision. What I want, and will always support, is that they be given an option, a way to rid themselves of their addiction. But they have to do so willingly. Any substance abuse counselor will tell you that the first step to recovery is recognition of the problem.

Although I agree with you for the most part the drug problem that ASEA is talking about isn't just f-ing up the abusers bodies. It is becoming a huge social issue in our cities and we need to do something about it and the answer is not decriminalizing drugs. The most obvious example of how this is affecting the rest of society is the homelessness issue. It is rampant in Liberal cities especially. I would argue that in those situations forced rehab, instead of prison or doing nothing is the only option. Instead of a mandatory sentence of some sort I would have them go through intense, in-patient rehab. Their sentence would include out-patient meetings with a drug councilor multiple times a week, along with drug tests. It would also have to include some sort of half-way house. If that program didn't work for somebody then they would have to spend some time in jail before starting the program over again. I know it isn't going to be cheap but, personally, I would rather my tax dollars go to getting these people off of the streets with a chance to get off of drugs then spending it on jail sentences that don't work or cleaning up these tent-cities that pop up or other property damage from homelessness or drug use.

[NorthHawk]

My best friend in High School (until we moved away prior to my senior year) ended up being a heroin addict.
He had a full time job and owned his own business. I asked him how he could do that while being an addict and he said it wasn't a problem.
He said that supply was the issue and as long as he knew he had his fix available it was smooth sailing. When he did start to go off the rails
was when he couldn't get a supply. He also said it wasn't the heroin that got people into trouble medically, but it was what the dealers used to
cut it that caused problems. These days that's fentanyl or carfentanyl (sp) which causes much greater problems. If you take his experience
in to account, maybe providing clean drugs is ONE pathway for those who cannot shake the addiction. My friend had been in rehab 4 times but
could not completely get off of it and continued to relapse.

[RiverDog]

My friend had been in rehab 4 times but could not completely get off of it and continued to relapse.

I have several friends/family members, including my only brother, that went through substance abuse rehab multiple times only to relapse. They appeared as if they were personally committed to getting off and would do OK for a period of time. But what usually happens is that they make contact with some old friend that talks them into having a beer or sharing a line with them and they're right back where they started from. A successful rehab means completely disowning friends and starting a new life, and that's really tough for most of us.

Forced rehab simply won't work. We'd be throwing good money after bad. I don't have a solution to drug abuse or it's close cousin homelessness, but neither incrassation, interdiction, or forced rehab are the answers. The best we can do is to keep them from interfering with other people's lives.

[mykc14]

My best friend in High School (until we moved away prior to my senior year) ended up being a heroin addict.
He had a full time job and owned his own business. I asked him how he could do that while being an addict and he said it wasn't a problem.
He said that supply was the issue and as long as he knew he had his fix available it was smooth sailing. When he did start to go off the rails
was when he couldn't get a supply. He also said it wasn't the heroin that got people into trouble medically, but it was what the dealers used to
cut it that caused problems. These days that's fentanyl or carfentanyl (sp) which causes much greater problems. If you take his experience
in to account, maybe providing clean drugs is ONE pathway for those who cannot shake the addiction. My friend had been in rehab 4 times but
could not completely get off of it and continued to relapse.

No doubt Heroin is an awful drug, like you and others have said. It sounds like your friend could afford his drugs so he wasn't taking from society to fuel his habit. Is he married? Does he have kids? I only ask that because I would be shocked if he were able to keep using and be a good husband/father. I fully agree that what dealers are using to cut their drugs is a major problem. My issue to providing clean drugs is it has the potential to normalize it and get more people addicted. Lack of access to drugs and the fear of a fentanyl overdose might be the only thing keeping some people from even trying it in the first place. I know I've counseled kids on the verge of getting into drugs on more of party setting and one thing that seems to work is showing them images/articles discussing fentanyl and it's dangers. One kid who I thought I had lost... I mean we talked all of the time and finally had one long discussion where I laid everything out and he just looked at me and said, "I'm not quitting." He wouldn't respond to my texts or calls for like 6 months and then finally he shows up to my house, completely clean and told me the thing that stuck with him was the fear of a fentanyl overdose. He had been using and selling cocaine/taking oxy and had been flirting with the idea of trying Heroin.

[RiverDog]

Although I agree with you for the most part the drug problem that ASEA is talking about isn't just f-ing up the abusers bodies. It is becoming a huge social issue in our cities and we need to do something about it and the answer is not decriminalizing drugs. The most obvious example of how this is affecting the rest of society is the homelessness issue. It is rampant in Liberal cities especially. I would argue that in those situations forced rehab, instead of prison or doing nothing is the only option. Instead of a mandatory sentence of some sort I would have them go through intense, in-patient rehab. Their sentence would include out-patient meetings with a drug councilor multiple times a week, along with drug tests. It would also have to include some sort of half-way house. If that program didn't work for somebody then they would have to spend some time in jail before starting the program over again. I know it isn't going to be cheap but, personally, I would rather my tax dollars go to getting these people off of the streets with a chance to get off of drugs then spending it on jail sentences that don't work or cleaning up these tent-cities that pop up or other property damage from homelessness or drug use.

I've been exposed to the drug abuse problem since very early in my youth. I'm from Walla Walla, home of the WSP. I used to date the warden's daughter. I had a baseball coach that was a counselor at The Pen, and my dad's best friend managed the cannery. "Trustees", or inmates in minimum security, used to umpire our youth baseball games. I had a high school classmate that was a guard. Even in the 70's, the crimes the vast majority of inmates were in for were drug-related. They've been trying counseling and rehab for over 50 years. They've had programs at the community college to teach job skills. They had a program called "take a con to dinner" where an adult citizen, an employee of the pen, and an inmate could go to dinner at a restaurant or personal home, sort of a way of introducing them to a normal life. They've had "conjugal visits", and would hire a hooker if needed. They even used to have a prison football team ala The Longest Yard. It was never 'lock them up and throw away the key." They've tried a lot of innovative stuff over the years.

None of it worked ever worked. The recidivism rates remain at 80%+. Perhaps there's something in the future that no one thought of before, something surgical like a lobotomy or some kind of drug that could alter their behavior. But it's foolhardy to think that the same old things that have been tried in multiple locations over the past 50 years and failed will suddenly take root and solve the problem.

[NorthHawk]

No doubt Heroin is an awful drug, like you and others have said. It sounds like your friend could afford his drugs so he wasn't taking from society to fuel his habit. Is he married? Does he have kids? I only ask that because I would be shocked if he were able to keep using and be a good husband/father. I fully agree that what dealers are using to cut their drugs is a major problem. My issue to providing clean drugs is it has the potential to normalize it and get more people addicted. Lack of access to drugs and the fear of a fentanyl overdose might be the only thing keeping some people from even trying it in the first place. I know I've counseled kids on the verge of getting into drugs on more of party setting and one thing that seems to work is showing them images/articles discussing fentanyl and it's dangers. One kid who I thought I had lost... I mean we talked all of the time and finally had one long discussion where I laid everything out and he just looked at me and said, "I'm not quitting." He wouldn't respond to my texts or calls for like 6 months and then finally he shows up to my house, completely clean and told me the thing that stuck with him was the fear of a fentanyl overdose. He had been using and selling cocaine/taking oxy and had been flirting with the idea of trying Heroin.

I wasn't trying to minimize the problems with drugs in society, just providing one example of someone who was able to get along even as an addict.
He was married and his wife suddenly dying left him an emotional wreck. Someone turned him onto heroin and he said it was the only thing that took away the pain and the next thing
he knew he was an addict. His kids were teenagers at the time (late teens) and from what I understand are well adjusted adults now. He died in 2007 and the obit said his family was beside
him when he left us so I don't know if it was bad drugs or disease that took him.

There was also an article on 60 Minutes a number of years back where in England they were trying an experiment on users who continually tried and failed to get off heroin where they gave them
a weeks supply. Apparently in the town they did this the petty crime rate fell considerably and the participants began to lead more normal lives with some managing to get and keep jobs. A program
like that might not be an option for all, but it may be for some. We just have to have the guts to try something different as the enforcement side doesn't work very well as it is.

[mykc14]

I wasn't trying to minimize the problems with drugs in society, just providing one example of someone who was able to get along even as an addict.
He was married and his wife suddenly dying left him an emotional wreck. Someone turned him onto heroin and he said it was the only thing that took away the pain and the next thing
he knew he was an addict. His kids were teenagers at the time (late teens) and from what I understand are well adjusted adults now. He died in 2007 and the obit said his family was beside
him when he left us so I don't know if it was bad drugs or disease that took him.

There was also an article on 60 Minutes a number of years back where in England they were trying an experiment on users who continually tried and failed to get off heroin where they gave them
a weeks supply. Apparently in the town they did this the petty crime rate fell considerably and the participants began to lead more normal lives with some managing to get and keep jobs. A program
like that might not be an option for all, but it may be for some. We just have to have the guts to try something different as the enforcement side doesn't work very well as it is.

I didn't think you were trying to minimize the drug problem and I do think it is an interesting idea. I was just counter-arguing. It certainly would reduce the amount of petty crime, at least for awhile.

[mykc14]

None of it worked ever worked. The recidivism rates remain at 80%+. Perhaps there's something in the future that no one thought of before, something surgical like a lobotomy or some kind of drug that could alter their behavior. But it's foolhardy to think that the same old things that have been tried in multiple locations over the past 50 years and failed will suddenly take root and solve the problem.

There is no easy solution. I agree that continuing to just lock them up and hope they'll be rehabilitated isn't going to work and we need to do something different. We definitely need prison reform. I think we have made advancements in drug treatment recently and things like methadone have between 20-40% higher success rate than previous methods of drug rehab. I think we can all agree that we need to do something and what we have been doing is not working.

[RiverDog]

There was also an article on 60 Minutes a number of years back where in England they were trying an experiment on users who continually tried and failed to get off heroin where they gave them a weeks supply. Apparently in the town they did this the petty crime rate fell considerably and the participants began to lead more normal lives with some managing to get and keep jobs. A program like that might not be an option for all, but it may be for some. We just have to have the guts to try something different as the enforcement side doesn't work very well as it is.

I would be more inclined to try something like that than I would forced rehabilitation.

[RiverDog]

None of it worked ever worked. The recidivism rates remain at 80%+. Perhaps there's something in the future that no one thought of before, something surgical like a lobotomy or some kind of drug that could alter their behavior. But it's foolhardy to think that the same old things that have been tried in multiple locations over the past 50 years and failed will suddenly take root and solve the problem.

There is no easy solution. I agree that continuing to just lock them up and hope they'll be rehabilitated isn't going to work and we need to do something different. We definitely need prison reform. I think we have made advancements in drug treatment recently and things like methadone have between 20-40% higher success rate than previous methods of drug rehab. I think we can all agree that we need to do something and what we have been doing is not working.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a clue as to what the solution is. If they have some treatments like you're referring to that shows some promise, then by all means, we should pursue it.

But I do know what won't work, and rehabilitation of those that do not admit to their problem and/or do not want to be rehabbed hasn't worked in the past and unless someone shows me what the difference is between contemporary efforts and those tried in the past that would give us a reasonable hope for a different result, I won't support continuing to throw good money after bad. Make rehabilitation available if they want it but otherwise let them do what they're going to do, keep them from interfering with the rest of society, and increase our efforts in education and prevention.