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the electoral vote, what will the Democrats do? Will they roll over and redo the election? If the Republicans force them to fight, will they fight or roll over?

That occasion may arrive January 6th. Will the Democrats fight or roll over like a beaten dog? What do you think?

Republicans down here are already refusing to acknowledge. No need to wait!

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/attorne ... ec-23.html

He will go down in history as one of the most corrupt AGs actively running interference for Trump's legal efforts. Those include Barr AKA the walrus claiming that 2 women suing Trump for defamation related to rape accusations had to face the US dept of justice lawyers on DTs behalf as Trumps defamatory comments were made in "part of his official duty as president. ". He wrote the whitewash letter on the Russian investigation, mostly misleading or false which shaped the public perception of the Mueller probe long before the true facts laid out were ever known. But in the end he was no different from these Republican Senators who shepherded Trump through Russia, Ukraine, etc etc. He even played along a bit after the trump cries of a rigged election, having his agents do a perfunctory look into the election . But Bill Barr has proven by his words and actions including refusing to expose the Hunter Biden investigation pre election he's a better man than Mitch McConnell etc. He wouldnt make stuff up when it came to our election .That's pretty bad if your Moscow Mitch. You're bigger trash than Bill Barr. You still haven't said your old friend even won you pos

Asea I have no idea what the senators will do when the vote gets to the congress. Frankly I think it's a fool's errand. They can't win. I have a hard time seeing how they can hold out another 2 weeks.

I heard Republicans also cast competing slates of electors for Trump in several swing states in some sort of desperate move to win if he wins in some court, in the congress, whatever.
As Karl Rove said on Fox, the president "is starting to look like a sore loser"

Aseahawkfan wrote:the electoral vote, what will the Democrats do? Will they roll over and redo the election? If the Republicans force them to fight, will they fight or roll over?

That occasion may arrive January 6th. Will the Democrats fight or roll over like a beaten dog? What do you think?

There's not much they can do with Congress's counting of the electoral college vote. All they can achieve is force the two chambers to debate the issue for a couple of hours. There obviously not enough votes in the House as the Dems control that chamber, while in the Senate, the Republicans will only have 51 Senators and there's already a number of R's, like Collins, Murkowski, Romney, Sasse, and Cassidy, that have been on record for weeks as saying that Biden is the winner. There's less chance of Trump flipping the counting of the vote than there was at flipping the electoral college.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/14/politics ... index.html
It does restore a bit of faith in america to see guys willing to commit political suicide rather than support this madness.

c_hawkbob wrote:Republicans down here are already refusing to acknowledge. No need to wait!

Republicans in general won't acknowledge Biden anymore than Dems refused to acknowledge George Bush.

Despite all the threats of violence, I haven't heard any reports of any shenanigans associated with the electoral college vote, at least not yet. Has anyone else?

RiverDog wrote:Republicans in general won't acknowledge Biden anymore than Dems refused to acknowledge George Bush.

Despite all the threats of violence, I haven't heard any reports of any shenanigans associated with the electoral college vote, at least not yet. Has anyone else?

No, other than Republicans having Republican appointed electors cast their state's votes for Trump in case the courts overturn or the Republican Senate refuses to confirm the vote to force a redo of the election.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/530092-stephen-miller-alternate-electors-will-keep-trump-challenge-alive-post

That's why I am asking. If the Republican Senate refuses to confirm the electoral vote and pushes to force a redo of the election, what will the Democrats do? Roll over like a whipped dog or fight?

It seems we are getting dangerously close to I5, Hawktawk, and C-bob being right and Trump having sufficient supporters to start a violent Civil War over this election that will require the Democrats to step up and fight back. Will they do it?

Let's just say my Trump supporting buddies think the Republican Trump supporters have the vast majority of guns and will be able to easily overwhelm the Democrats with violence. I personally think they underestimate the number of armed Democrats myself, but I do know likely the majority of police and possibly the military would side with the Republican Trumpers save for those who feel an obligation to maintain law and order across the nation for the sake of it. The police have nearly no reason to side with the Democrats.

If it comes to that, I wonder will the Democrats roll over letting Trump alpha-dog them or do they have sufficient fight in them to stand up a bully looking to tear apart the nation with possible help from Republican cronies?

I know your natural belief things will work out and the Republican Senate won't do it, but can you say that for sure after the number of House Representatives willing to side with Trump? And you tell me if Texas and California go at each other militarily who do you think will win? Where would you put your money even with Texas out-manned 2 to 1? I'd probably still put my money on Texas.

I hope the Republican Senate does the right thing rather than tear America apart, but who can say with Mitch McConnell. He loves his power. He may wield it in the ultimate game of power: force the Democrats to roll over and redo the election making them look completely weak and force them to fight or get punked. If the Republicans can make the Democrats look pathetic and weak, they will hold power like they never have before. The Democrats will have to fight or be a whipped dog for an indefinite period of time.

c_hawkbob wrote:Republicans down here are already refusing to acknowledge. No need to wait!

You're one of the few Democrats I know for sure will take up arms against a Trump insurrection. Not sure how many friends you have where you're at, but you should have a plan to move if it comes to it no matter how little the chance is. No use staying where you and your family will be easily attacked by the pro-Trump folk if this goes the wrong way.

Putin has acknowledged Biden as president. Maybe that means Trump will stand down if Trump is Russia's puppet.

It seems we are getting dangerously close to I5, Hawktawk, and C-bob being right and Trump having sufficient supporters to start a violent Civil War over this election that will require the Democrats to step up and fight back. Will they do it?

It's good to hear you acknowledge the 'lunatics' in here might not be crazy after all. Nothing he does has surprised me, because this is the substance he has shown from BEFORE he even took office, watching how he behaved in the 2016 primaries and the general election campaign. It's all very consistent. I understand that you and Riv had more faith in the powerbrokers in the Republican party, but I've been wary of them as well. But at this point I don't believe there will be an actual civil war, since a lot of the energy is already dissipating....maybe lots of guns shooting into the air terrorizing whoever happens to be around. It'll be more like keyboard warriors at this point pushing newsmax stories to whoever will listen.

My household is fairly well armed (the second amendment is not just for right wingnuts), I don't have the better than a dozen firearms that many around here do but I think I'm good to hunker down and get through the worst of it should actual shooting ever start. I remain prepared but I refuse to live in fear.

Aseahawkfan wrote:No, other than Republicans having Republican appointed electors cast their state's votes for Trump in case the courts overturn or the Republican Senate refuses to confirm the vote to force a redo of the election.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/530092-stephen-miller-alternate-electors-will-keep-trump-challenge-alive-post

That's why I am asking. If the Republican Senate refuses to confirm the electoral vote and pushes to force a redo of the election, what will the Democrats do? Roll over like a whipped dog or fight?

You're asking a purely hypothetical question. The Republican Senate can't force a redo, not by themselves. For one, there's not enough of them. Besides, more and more R's are acknowledging that Biden has won the election. It's over.

Aseahawkfan wrote:It seems we are getting dangerously close to I5, Hawktawk, and C-bob being right and Trump having sufficient supporters to start a violent Civil War over this election that will require the Democrats to step up and fight back. Will they do it?

Now it seems as you're the one that's listening to the hysterical left wing media. Trump is doing the same thing that he's done in the previous 4 years: Keep his base stirred up. That's all he cares about.

The election law requiring the counting of the Electoral College by Congress is pretty loosely written, so there's libel to be some procedural challenges when they convene on Jan. 6th, but it's not going to result in the tossing out of the results.

People were expecting violence in Washington, DC and at various state capitols yesterday as the electoral college vote was cast, but there wasn't. What happened?

Aseahawkfan wrote:Putin has acknowledged Biden as president. Maybe that means Trump will stand down if Trump is Russia's puppet.

isn't that something? Putin beat 75% of Republican legislators to congratulate Biden.. Yeah Trumps been his puppet, his stooge, his useful idiot. Putin's really gotten more than he could ever dream out of the relationship. But he's so ruthless he makes Bill Belichick look kind hearted.

He creeps me out frankly. But it is telling he's more pragmatic than the republican senate in acknowledging the inevitable. I wouldnt be shocked to see some of the blackmail detailed in the intelligence reports leaking out, the aquatic tape, the financial crimes.. Putin has no use for Trump other than the national security secrets he will certainly deliver.

RiverDog wrote:You're asking a purely hypothetical question. The Republican Senate can't force a redo, not by themselves. For one, there's not enough of them. Besides, more and more R's are acknowledging that Biden has won the election. It's over.

Now it seems as you're the one that's listening to the hysterical left wing media. Trump is doing the same thing that he's done in the previous 4 years: Keep his base stirred up. That's all he cares about.

The election law requiring the counting of the Electoral College by Congress is pretty loosely written, so there's libel to be some procedural challenges when they convene on Jan. 6th, but it's not going to result in the tossing out of the results.

People were expecting violence in Washington, DC and at various state capitols yesterday as the electoral college vote was cast, but there wasn't. What happened?

I was only worried if the Republican Senate refused to confirm the vote on January 6th as some were pushing for. Good to know the Republican Senate unlike the House refused to coddle Trump. After the House of Representatives joined up with the clown show Texas lawsuit, I was a bit worried the Senate Republicans would start a problem.

I have to say you are downplaying things. If you read up on revolutions, it doesn't take much to set one off when you already have the ingredients for a violent revolution to start: well armed population, major political division, a political party willing to back a loon like Trump, and a president willing to blow things up to hold power including surrounding himself completely with sycophants and supporters. All it would have taken is one serious match thrown and this could have been set off and might still be set off. One bad shooting or uprising and we could see a match lit that will have to be put out.

We shall see. I hope most of this talk is saber rattling. But if someone gets this going, I know a lot of armed Republicans are waiting for the call to revolution waiting for someone else to actually start it and Trump to call for it.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I was only worried if the Republican Senate refused to confirm the vote on January 6th as some were pushing for. Good to know the Republican Senate unlike the House refused to coddle Trump. After the House of Representatives joined up with the clown show Texas lawsuit, I was a bit worried the Senate Republicans would start a problem.

This morning, Mitch McConnell has not only recognized Biden as the winner of the election, he's warning fellow Republicans not to force a "terrible vote" and appear as if they are against Trump. His comments were echoed by Senators Thune, Braun, and Blunt. Sen. Cornyn says he expects "a turning of the page on Jan. 20, when you'll have a peaceful transition." And he says, "There comes a time when you have to realize that despite your best efforts, you've been unsuccessful." Even Lindsey Graham, the most notorious Trump butt kisser, has admitted that Biden is now the President-elect and has had what Graham described as a "pleasant 10 minute conversation."

https://www.startribune.com/the-latest- ... 600001458/

I regard those pols as being a day late and a dollar short and personally feel that they have disgraced themselves, but it shows that there's a slow but definite movement by Republicans to lay down their swords and accept the results of the election. That along with the fact that contrary to these hysterical fears of an impending revolution, we have not had any widespread demonstrations or acts of violence is a strong indication that the fever is subsiding. There's another 3 weeks for the country to 'get over' the electoral college vote before Congress convenes to certify the results.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I have to say you are downplaying things. If you read up on revolutions, it doesn't take much to set one off when you already have the ingredients for a violent revolution to start: well armed population, major political division, a political party willing to back a loon like Trump, and a president willing to blow things up to hold power including surrounding himself completely with sycophants and supporters. All it would have taken is one serious match thrown and this could have been set off and might still be set off. One bad shooting or uprising and we could see a match lit that will have to be put out.

We shall see. I hope most of this talk is saber rattling. But if someone gets this going, I know a lot of armed Republicans are waiting for the call to revolution waiting for someone else to actually start it and Trump to call for it.

That's your opinion and that's fine. I simply see things in a much different light than you guys do.

RiverDog wrote:This morning, Mitch McConnell has not only recognized Biden as the winner of the election, he's warning fellow Republicans not to force a "terrible vote" and appear as if they are against Trump. His comments were echoed by Senators Thune, Braun, and Blunt. Sen. Cornyn says he expects "a turning of the page on Jan. 20, when you'll have a peaceful transition." And he says, "There comes a time when you have to realize that despite your best efforts, you've been unsuccessful." Even Lindsey Graham, the most notorious Trump butt kisser, has admitted that Biden is now the President-elect and has had what Graham described as a "pleasant 10 minute conversation."

https://www.startribune.com/the-latest- ... 600001458/

I regard those pols as being a day late and a dollar short and personally feel that they have disgraced themselves, but it shows that there's a slow but definite movement by Republicans to lay down their swords and accept the results of the election. That along with the fact that contrary to these hysterical fears of an impending revolution, we have not had any widespread demonstrations or acts of violence is a strong indication that the fever is subsiding. There's another 3 weeks for the country to 'get over' the electoral college vote before Congress convenes to certify the results.

I am resting much easier seeing McConnell pretty much destroy Trump's hope of help. I know some may disagree, but I think McConnell will hurt Trump badly if Trump goes after him. It won't be in public or direct, but it will be bad for Trump. McConnell is a different kind of political animal who works in a very cold and calculating manner. He doesn't like a messy house and especially doesn't like a the mess going public. Trump's left a very messy house.

I didn't think I would see a revolution in my lifetime, but now I'm not so sure. Trump was a closer call than I expected. If this continues as it is right now, we may see a leader rise who divides this nation and starts a violent separation. These two sides are far apart on what they see as America in terms of economics, history, morals, and the like. They are attacking each other relentlessly. That's not a recipe for a good time.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I am resting much easier seeing McConnell pretty much destroy Trump's hope of help. I know some may disagree, but I think McConnell will hurt Trump badly if Trump goes after him. It won't be in public or direct, but it will be bad for Trump. McConnell is a different kind of political animal who works in a very cold and calculating manner. He doesn't like a messy house and especially doesn't like a the mess going public. Trump's left a very messy house.

Trump is forcing guys McConnell to walk on eggshells. He doesn't want to disrupt the R base as he desperately needs at least one of those 2 GA elections to go his way in order to save his majority. I really think had it not been for the importance of those two GA elections that you would see more Republicans going public with their acceptance of the election results. Those that haven't come out are being very coy, tap dancing around questions put to them.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I didn't think I would see a revolution in my lifetime, but now I'm not so sure. Trump was a closer call than I expected. If this continues as it is right now, we may see a leader rise who divides this nation and starts a violent separation. These two sides are far apart on what they see as America in terms of economics, history, morals, and the like. They are attacking each other relentlessly. That's not a recipe for a good time.

IMO the pandemic and associated lock-downs had a full moon effect on the country, pushed a lot of lunatics on both sides over the top. Toss that in with a man like Donald Trump speaking from the bully pulpit, a relatively close election and a longer than usual vote count, a long summer of unabated riots, the cancel culture and defund the police movements that's pushed the buttons of ultra conservatives/white supremist and caused them to react.

2020 was an anomaly, a perfect storm of events that's not likely to be repeated. I don't think things get completely back to normal, at least not right away, but IMO the worst has past.

RiverDog wrote:IMO the pandemic and associated lock-downs had a full moon effect on the country, pushed a lot of lunatics on both sides over the top. Toss that in with a man like Donald Trump speaking from the bully pulpit, a relatively close election and a longer than usual vote count, a long summer of unabated riots, the cancel culture and defund the police movements that's pushed the buttons of ultra conservatives/white supremist and caused them to react.

2020 was an anomaly, a perfect storm of events that's not likely to be repeated. I don't think things get completely back to normal, at least not right away, but IMO the worst has past.

Now you sound like me and I sound like I5. Damn. This crap finally got to me.

McConnel may have been publicly congratulatory of Biden but privately he's begging fellow senators not to sign on to this crazy loser deal of challenging the vote in 5 states and forcing them to "look bad" voting against trump. It just makes me ill. These are just soulless political animals with no core values regarding decency.

I dont think McConnell has ever worried about Trump attacking him personally, just what his attacks on others can do to his power. Right now his power hinges on 2 seats in Georgia. My guess is their polling is showing their continued holdout by trump and mixed message to their voters is hurting his grip on power.

In a way it makes sense. Polls show 25% of republicans give or take believe Biden won. I've heard the opinion its actually surprisingly it isn't 5% which is true. There has been significant erosion in Trump's support since the election. At some point you would think any red blooded american of any political persuasion would tell this whiney biatch to STFU and GTFO.

Hawktawk wrote:McConnel may have been publicly congratulatory of Biden but privately he's begging fellow senators not to sign on to this crazy loser deal of challenging the vote in 5 states and forcing them to "look bad" voting against trump. It just makes me ill. These are just soulless political animals with no core values regarding decency.

I dont think McConnell has ever worried about Trump attacking him personally, just what his attacks on others can do to his power. Right now his power hinges on 2 seats in Georgia. My guess is their polling is showing their continued holdout by trump and mixed message to their voters is hurting his grip on power.

In a way it makes sense. Polls show 25% of republicans give or take believe Biden won. I've heard the opinion its actually surprisingly it isn't 5% which is true. There has been significant erosion in Trump's support since the election. At some point you would think any red blooded american of any political persuasion would tell this whiney biatch to STFU and GTFO.

I have friends who still believe their vote for Trump was the right thing for the nation and Biden is a pawn of the left.

They're waiting for someone to start a revolution they can join.

I have friends who still believe their vote for Trump was the right thing for the nation and Biden is a pawn of the left.

They're waiting for someone to start a revolution they can join.

Somehow this does not sound much different from a few years ago when everyone was talking about how someone could be 'radicalized' by ISIS. Except this time, it's the POTUS who is the source. Convince me I'm wrong.

I-5 wrote:Somehow this does not sound much different from a few years ago when everyone was talking about how someone could be 'radicalized' by ISIS. Except this time, it's the POTUS who is the source. Convince me I'm wrong.

They're not radicalized by the POTUS, just spun up by him. The things angering them will not change with Trump gone. That is the problem.

My friend specifically believes the following:
1. That American history is being destroyed and the Democrats hate America. He believed this before Trump was even on the radar. He believed Trump was the only president to fight for America as a good nation is why he voted for him and that he was the only president he's listened to since Reagan that made him feel like he cared about America. Not Clinton. Not Obama. Not Bush Jr. None of them made him feel like they really loved America.

2. He believes the Democrats are teaching Americans to hate white people because the enemy they always paint as the big problem with the world is the white male keeping every minority and female down. For a man with white children to have the Democrats teach that him and his family are somehow keeping minorities and his sons are keeping women in America down when they are just living drives him into a rage. He feels this teaching threatens his children, especially his sons.

3. He obviously bought into all the riots and looting and the defund the police movement with Democrats in Washington State doing nothing but making excuses for the behavior of rioters and looters as more proof of the first two concerns. To him the Democrats will defund the police, let minorities violently attack him and his family or anarchist leftists, and the only person that will protect him and his family is someone like Trump.

4. He believes the Democrats ridicule him for his religious beliefs which he holds dear.

5. He believes the Democrats are out to silence and violently or economically control anyone who believes differently than they do including him.

So you tell me, what do you do when one side believes the above and the other side basically believes nearly the opposite.

Many Democrats including some that post on this board believe:

1. Many minorities, especially folk of African descent, believe whites are out to get them and the entire country is racist.

2. Many Democrats teach that people with money our out to cheat and use them using dogwhistles (the new popular term) like wealth inequality to basically encourage those deemed middle class or poor to attack the rich.

3. We have real socialists, not just social Democrats, like Kshawa Sawant and AOC teaching that Amazon is the enemy and should be kept out of their cities. They do the same with other companies.

4. You already watched protests against the police and clear proof that the left and minorities believe police officers are the enemy and a tool of fascists.

So what do you do when both sides have built up each other as villains and continue to do so? So that each side is so invested in their position and so willing to believe their side that they view the other side as traitors and out to get them? How do you calm that down and cause people to think rationally?

Hard to do right now. We certainly are not producing leaders capable of doing so. One of the reasons is because every time we elect a new leader the other side is already building him into some kind of villain out to get them with minimal evidence required.

Right now the right is saying Biden is an illegitimate president who will be a pawn of the left.

I told you guys years ago there would be payback for the Trump is a Russian spy BS and here is the payback. Just like the Russian Spy BS is payback for the Birther conspiracy and attacks on Hilary. We can't continue to vote for these leaders whose idea of leadership is tearing down the other guy because they aren't very capable leaders who can win on the merit of their platform and ability to lead. It's a real bad situation right now where becoming president of the United States is less about being good at leadership and more about proving the other guy is worse or a villain.

It's real hard to have a rational citizenry when what passes for journalism is opinion by talking heads paid millions to get people to buy into their viewpoint. Many influencer groups in our nation have created a very divided America that I can't see changing any time soon unless we start to have real liberty again where a person isn't having viewpoints forced down their throat in public. It didn't work well at any point in our history and it isn't going to work well now.

I have friends who still believe their vote for Trump was the right thing for the nation and Biden is a pawn of the left.

They're waiting for someone to start a revolution they can join.[/quote]

I-5 wrote:Somehow this does not sound much different from a few years ago when everyone was talking about how someone could be 'radicalized' by ISIS. Except this time, it's the POTUS who is the source. Convince me I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. Trump has succeeded in radicalizing many on the far right. But it hasn't been due to just Trump and his bombastic behavior. There's been other factors at work. He's been aided by the fact that it was an election year, came after a summer of rioting and looting that established violent behavior as an accepted norm, and this full moon trance that the pandemic and associated shut downs has created. A perfect storm.

Yeah, I’m not saying Trump is the only source, but that he is definitely one of them.

I-5 wrote:Yeah, I’m not saying Trump is the only source, but that he is definitely one of them.

Likely the primary one, at least as far as the election turmoil goes.

He's (Trump) the one perpetuating it and probably the only one who can stop it or significantly mitigate it quickly.

Many Democrats including some that post on this board believe:

1. Many minorities, especially folk of African descent, believe whites are out to get them and the entire country is racist.

2. Many Democrats teach that people with money our out to cheat and use them using dogwhistles (the new popular term) like wealth inequality to basically encourage those deemed middle class or poor to attack the rich.

3. We have real socialists, not just social Democrats, like Kshawa Sawant and AOC teaching that Amazon is the enemy and should be kept out of their cities. They do the same with other companies.

4. You already watched protests against the police and clear proof that the left and minorities believe police officers are the enemy and a tool of fascists.

For starters, I take 'many' to be 'almost all'...ha! This perspective is quite simplistic, and I find quite inaccurate.

1. I think that minorities, especially blacks, aren't focused on the idea that 'whites are out to get them' so much as the system we live in is designed to benefit others. It doesn't mean every white person is racist at all, but for example how the housing and education system to name just a couple have historically marginalized blacks. It's fairly well documented.

2. Again, no one is 'out to get anyone', it's the laws that are in place since Reagan that benefit the rich, many of whom are DEMOCRATS. It just is.

3. I don't think Sawant speaks for all, most, or even many democrats. I would say I'm pretty liberal, and I can't stand her. She doesn't speak for me, I would almost call Sawant an anarchist as much as socialist. By the way, I'm not socialist, nor will I ever be. But I do believe in social services which are a part of every major democracy including the US. It should be a nuanced conversation, but too many people on the right get paranoid about the details and want to label anything as 'commie' that prevents any useful dialogue.

4. The protests were against injustice by the police - not the police itself - and taking steps to remove institutional racism. One positive thing I've read lately is that some states are proposing a heightened education and age requirement for incoming police officers, as it's been proven those officers end up in less deadly confrontations. Illinois, New Jersey, and North Dakota already require their state officers to complete at least two years of college or some kind of equivalent before they enter the force. While no statistics show the direct impact of requirements, as of 2019 all three states were in the bottom 11 of those with the lowest number of police killings, according to MappingPoliceViolence.org.*

*https://www.vice.com/en/article/akd7wp/california-bill-require-police-officers-4-year-college-degree

I-5 wrote:For starters, I take 'many' to be 'almost all'...ha! This perspective is quite simplistic, and I find quite inaccurate.

1. I think that minorities, especially blacks, aren't focused on the idea that 'whites are out to get them' so much as the system we live in is designed to benefit others. It doesn't mean every white person is racist at all, but for example how the housing and education system to name just a couple have historically marginalized blacks. It's fairly well documented.

2. Again, no one is 'out to get anyone', it's the laws that are in place since Reagan that benefit the rich, many of whom are DEMOCRATS. It just is.

3. I don't think Sawant speaks for all, most, or even many democrats. I would say I'm pretty liberal, and I can't stand her. She doesn't speak for me, I would almost call Sawant an anarchist as much as socialist. By the way, I'm not socialist, nor will I ever be. But I do believe in social services which are a part of every major democracy including the US. It should be a nuanced conversation, but too many people on the right get paranoid about the details and want to label anything as 'commie' that prevents any useful dialogue.

4. The protests were against injustice by the police - not the police itself - and taking steps to remove institutional racism. One positive thing I've read lately is that some states are proposing a heightened education and age requirement for incoming police officers, as it's been proven those officers end up in less deadly confrontations. Illinois, New Jersey, and North Dakota already require their state officers to complete at least two years of college or some kind of equivalent before they enter the force. While no statistics show the direct impact of requirements, as of 2019 all three states were in the bottom 11 of those with the lowest number of police killings, according to MappingPoliceViolence.org.*

*https://www.vice.com/en/article/akd7wp/california-bill-require-police-officers-4-year-college-degree

Like I said, the above shows what I'm talking about. My buddy doesn't agree with you and never will for a variety of reasons you won't agree with him. He's tired of you telling him that he's wrong and it sounds like you don't want him telling you that you're wrong.

Getting cops a 4 year degree isn't going to change jack squat. Had to run to work.

I'll translate this:

Liberal: 4 year degree should help keep bad cops off the force.

Conservative: So I've been doing this job for years with no college. I'm not one of the people who messed up. Now I'm too stupid to do my job? And now the liberals want to take one of the few jobs away that didn't require a college degree that pai well.

Many Democrats including some that post on this board believe:

1. Many minorities, especially folk of African descent, believe whites are out to get them and the entire country is racist.

2. Many Democrats teach that people with money our out to cheat and use them using dogwhistles (the new popular term) like wealth inequality to basically encourage those deemed middle class or poor to attack the rich.

3. We have real socialists, not just social Democrats, like Kshawa Sawant and AOC teaching that Amazon is the enemy and should be kept out of their cities. They do the same with other companies.

4. You already watched protests against the police and clear proof that the left and minorities believe police officers are the enemy and a tool of fascists.

I-5 wrote:For starters, I take 'many' to be 'almost all'...ha! This perspective is quite simplistic, and I find quite inaccurate.

1. I think that minorities, especially blacks, aren't focused on the idea that 'whites are out to get them' so much as the system we live in is designed to benefit others. It doesn't mean every white person is racist at all, but for example how the housing and education system to name just a couple have historically marginalized blacks. It's fairly well documented.

2. Again, no one is 'out to get anyone', it's the laws that are in place since Reagan that benefit the rich, many of whom are DEMOCRATS. It just is.

3. I don't think Sawant speaks for all, most, or even many democrats. I would say I'm pretty liberal, and I can't stand her. She doesn't speak for me, I would almost call Sawant an anarchist as much as socialist. By the way, I'm not socialist, nor will I ever be. But I do believe in social services which are a part of every major democracy including the US. It should be a nuanced conversation, but too many people on the right get paranoid about the details and want to label anything as 'commie' that prevents any useful dialogue.

4. The protests were against injustice by the police - not the police itself - and taking steps to remove institutional racism. One positive thing I've read lately is that some states are proposing a heightened education and age requirement for incoming police officers, as it's been proven those officers end up in less deadly confrontations. Illinois, New Jersey, and North Dakota already require their state officers to complete at least two years of college or some kind of equivalent before they enter the force. While no statistics show the direct impact of requirements, as of 2019 all three states were in the bottom 11 of those with the lowest number of police killings, according to MappingPoliceViolence.org.*

*https://www.vice.com/en/article/akd7wp/california-bill-require-police-officers-4-year-college-degree

Thank you for sorting the truth out from that obvious far right starting point.

Just to add to #2, if you don't think wealth inequity is real, growing and intentional your an easy mark. I don't care what you call it, trickle down economics is the biggest con in the country's history. And all that money that doesn't trickle down, also doesn't maintain roads, fund social security or maintain an educational system that can compete on the world stage. It's not just about what I have vs what Jeff Bezos has. It's the amount of money the country is lacking for the sake of keeping Wall Street happy.

Like I said, the above shows what I'm talking about. My buddy doesn't agree with you and never will for a variety of reasons you won't agree with him. He's tired of you telling him that he's wrong and it sounds like you don't want him telling you that you're wrong.

Why does it matter if your buddy disagrees? You’re trying to presume what you think goes on inside democrats’ or liberal minds, and I’m saying you’re not accurate, at least in my case. Who cares if your buddy thinks the same as you? It’s still incorrect. How do you feel if I try to put words in your mouth?

I-5 wrote:4. The protests were against injustice by the police - not the police itself - and taking steps to remove institutional racism. One positive thing I've read lately is that some states are proposing a heightened education and age requirement for incoming police officers, as it's been proven those officers end up in less deadly confrontations. Illinois, New Jersey, and North Dakota already require their state officers to complete at least two years of college or some kind of equivalent before they enter the force. While no statistics show the direct impact of requirements, as of 2019 all three states were in the bottom 11 of those with the lowest number of police killings, according to MappingPoliceViolence.org.*

*https://www.vice.com/en/article/akd7wp/california-bill-require-police-officers-4-year-college-degree

I'm having a problem seeing the difference between an injustice by the police and the police themselves. Why are they not one and the same? Who is it that is committing the injustice if not the police?

I'm not convinced that a specific degree will result in a lower number of deadly confrontations. A lot of the mistakes being made, particularly in the George Floyd incident, weren't due to the lack of education or training, it was the lack of common sense or sensitivity. You can't teach that in college.

That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to the idea of establishing an educational requirement, to the contrary, I agree with raising the bar for admittance to a police force. However, particularly if you start insisting on a higher educational standard that is going to cost applicants more money to acquire and make them more attractive to other potential employers, you are going to have to raise salaries to make it worth their efforts and compete with other lines of work with similar educational requirements. That is counter to the current movement to reduce police department budgets.

I'm not sure if it's typical of most big cities, but the Seattle Police Department is experiencing a huge exodus of police officers. Why on Earth would anyone, particularly someone that has an education and with it, more employment options, want to go into police work under the conditions that currently exist in a city like Seattle?

Aseahawkfan wrote:
Right now the right is saying Biden is an illegitimate president who will be a pawn of the left.

I told you guys years ago there would be payback for the Trump is a Russian spy BS and here is the payback. Just like the Russian Spy BS is payback for the Birther conspiracy and attacks on Hilary. We can't continue to vote for these leaders whose idea of leadership is tearing down the other guy because they aren't very capable leaders who can win on the merit of their platform and ability to lead. It's a real bad situation right now where becoming president of the United States is less about being good at leadership and more about proving the other guy is worse or a villain.

It's real hard to have a rational citizenry when what passes for journalism is opinion by talking heads paid millions to get people to buy into their viewpoint. Many influencer groups in our nation have created a very divided America that I can't see changing any time soon unless we start to have real liberty again where a person isn't having viewpoints forced down their throat in public. It didn't work well at any point in our history and it isn't going to work well now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... -it-means/
The problem ASEA is Russia isn't BS. This is just a few excerpts from a 1000 page REPUBLICAN written Senate panel snuck out last august in the middle of a pandemic and presidential race. Trump welcomed Russian Interference, begged for it, praised wikileaks. Several of his campaign people are described by senate republicans as an extreme national security risk. Manafort is described as a Russian agent in the report .

The report makes clear that cover ups by people like Stone, Manafort, etc made it impossible to get all the facts. As it was Trump committed obstruction of justice answering questions about collusion, perjured himself in WRITTEN ANSWERS . Most recently it was learned that Rod Rosenstein was a double agent on the presidents behalf, publicly directing Mueller to examine "any and all" connections between Russia and Trump but privately forbidding Mueller to look at anything other than provable conspiracy with Russia, indictable offenses. Trumps business dealings were off limits. The democrats in the house losing their Sh$t over Mueller not subpoening Trumps bank records know why now.

And its a main reason Trump is so scared to lose his protection and doing everything he can to overturn this.

I really get tired of hearing about Russian "BS" Ill never get why so many freedom loving flag waving patriots are cool with russia having their idol in his pocket? I guess they dont care if they get to have him as dear leader.

Now this election on the other hand, only an idiot believes it was stolen. A willing idiot, a cult member. I guess if they dont care if the electoral process of america is subverted by a deposed king they dont care about russia.

I read scary as F stuff about Russia every day including a huge security breach of all our govt agencies including the pentagon that was just discovered a few days ago after who knows how long? They tested sub and launcher fired ICBMs over the weekend, tested a satellite killing missile yesterday.

Hey no big deal right? You worried about the second amendment? your 401 K? border security, police reform? (tell your buddies Biden isn't for defunding the police, he was caught on tape telling party leaders than "defund the police" got the hell beat out of them down ballot. )Antifa Someone ripping down a statue? the other party being a bit too socially compassionate?

I worry about a nuclear pearl harbor, more now than ever. Your buddies america will be an ash if they think having a leader in Russia's pocket is no big thing

I worry a hell of a lot more about a party subverting democracy or enlisting russia to win a presidential election than some antifa F4#k burning stuff down in some liberal cesspool. When this is what became of the party of lincoln and reagan I'm outta there. This last 4 years is on Trump, the good, the bad and mostly ugly. Its a character flaw for anyone to accept DJT as the president of the united states because of some statement it makes or what they think they are gonna get out of it.

Then this ridiculously unamerican display now , the biggest loser ever and all these red blooded patriots are following him down the rat hole.. Worst president ever by a mile. Everyone plays gotcha on the other party but this is ridiculous. Hopefully it will destroy the party completely, tear it apart.

Here's the deal for your friends and mine that still want to play this game. You lost. Take your made in china red hat and stuff it. You are currently in a distinct minority, approximately one third of all total voters who think you got robbed. You wanna go at it? Bring it on, not just MAGA with guns..

c_hawkbob wrote:Thank you for sorting the truth out from that obvious far right starting point.

Just to add to #2, if you don't think wealth inequity is real, growing and intentional your an easy mark. I don't care what you call it, trickle down economics is the biggest con in the country's history. And all that money that doesn't trickle down, also doesn't maintain roads, fund social security or maintain an educational system that can compete on the world stage. It's not just about what I have vs what Jeff Bezos has. It's the amount of money the country is lacking for the sake of keeping Wall Street happy.

I tried to summarize some of the viewpoints I'm hearing on each side specifically from conservatives I know. If you tell me you've never heard such phrases as "Only white people can be racist", Critical Race Theory, or of The 1619 Project on the New York Times and similar books that rewrite American history from the perspective of oppressed folk then I don't know what to tell you, you must have missed those positions taken up by the left. These are the leftist ideologies my friends watch on Fox News that tells them what the left wing is pushing such as rewriting American history with The Founders of the nation as villains, painting America as an evil racist nation that is only powerful because of slavery, and that white men are the great enemy in America. This is the crap I have to listen from my conservative buddies. I have tried to explain to them this isn't the case, but they don't care because that is what the right wing media told them the left wing is pushing. They always find a left wing talking head or article to put on their media station from a legitimate source like CNN that is saying these things making it seem like the Democratic Party is pushing this.

As far as wealth inequality it is real. It has also existed since wealth was being accumulated to the day when kings were building palaces and pyramids and armies. It will always exist. It is power inequality in communist and socialist societies where party leaders decide what people get and usually take more for themselves due to their status within the party system. But the way wealth inequality is being used in the modern day is as an attack on the wealthy to fuel income warfare. It is a blunt instrument that accomplishes very little other than to get people to attack each other and make men like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos look like the bad guys. They are not. And I'm pretty you know men like Bezos and Gates are not your enemy.

I also do not believe in Trickle Down Economics. I call Trickle Down Economics Field of Dreams economics as in "Build it and they will come." That is not how economics works.

Wealth inequality without first defining what we want a middle class life to be in America is not a good plan to fix the issue. How do have a directed plan if we don't first define what we want a middle class life to be? There is always going to be wealth and power inequality in the world. There is no way to make a working guy have the same or even close to the same wealth as an owner or founder of a global multinational corporation with owners. So how much wealth should a middle class person have? That's the question we need to be asking. Once we get that defined, then we can have a goal to work towards that isn't pitting people against each other.

Hawktawk wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/18/senates-big-russia-report-what-we-learned-what-it-means/
The problem ASEA is Russia isn't BS. This is just a few excerpts from a 1000 page REPUBLICAN written Senate panel snuck out last august in the middle of a pandemic and presidential race. Trump welcomed Russian Interference, begged for it, praised wikileaks. Several of his campaign people are described by senate republicans as an extreme national security risk. Manafort is described as a Russian agent in the report .

The report makes clear that cover ups by people like Stone, Manafort, etc made it impossible to get all the facts. As it was Trump committed obstruction of justice answering questions about collusion, perjured himself in WRITTEN ANSWERS . Most recently it was learned that Rod Rosenstein was a double agent on the presidents behalf, publicly directing Mueller to examine "any and all" connections between Russia and Trump but privately forbidding Mueller to look at anything other than provable conspiracy with Russia, indictable offenses. Trumps business dealings were off limits. The democrats in the house losing their Sh$t over Mueller not subpoening Trumps bank records know why now.

And its a main reason Trump is so scared to lose his protection and doing everything he can to overturn this.

I really get tired of hearing about Russian "BS" Ill never get why so many freedom loving flag waving patriots are cool with russia having their idol in his pocket? I guess they dont care if they get to have him as dear leader.

Now this election on the other hand, only an idiot believes it was stolen. A willing idiot, a cult member. I guess if they dont care if the electoral process of america is subverted by a deposed king they dont care about russia.

I read scary as F stuff about Russia every day including a huge security breach of all our govt agencies including the pentagon that was just discovered a few days ago after who knows how long? They tested sub and launcher fired ICBMs over the weekend, tested a satellite killing missile yesterday.

Hey no big deal right? You worried about the second amendment? your 401 K? border security, police reform? (tell your buddies Biden isn't for defunding the police, he was caught on tape telling party leaders than "defund the police" got the hell beat out of them down ballot. )Antifa Someone ripping down a statue? the other party being a bit too socially compassionate?

I worry about a nuclear pearl harbor, more now than ever. Your buddies america will be an ash if they think having a leader in Russia's pocket is no big thing

I worry a hell of a lot more about a party subverting democracy or enlisting russia to win a presidential election than some antifa F4#k burning stuff down in some liberal cesspool. When this is what became of the party of lincoln and reagan I'm outta there. This last 4 years is on Trump, the good, the bad and mostly ugly. Its a character flaw for anyone to accept DJT as the president of the united states because of some statement it makes or what they think they are gonna get out of it.

Then this ridiculously unamerican display now , the biggest loser ever and all these red blooded patriots are following him down the rat hole.. Worst president ever by a mile. Everyone plays gotcha on the other party but this is ridiculous. Hopefully it will destroy the party completely, tear it apart.

Here's the deal for your friends and mine that still want to play this game. You lost. Take your made in china red hat and stuff it. You are currently in a distinct minority, approximately one third of all total voters who think you got robbed. You wanna go at it? Bring it on, not just MAGA with guns..

You can post that until your blue in the face. They don't care. They don't believe you or that report. They think it is a political hit job. There are 70 plus million of them.

And it also doesn't get us anywhere good.

These folks believe you are the enemy of America as much as you believe they are the enemy of America.

I-5 wrote:Why does it matter if your buddy disagrees? You’re trying to presume what you think goes on inside democrats’ or liberal minds, and I’m saying you’re not accurate, at least in my case. Who cares if your buddy thinks the same as you? It’s still incorrect. How do you feel if I try to put words in your mouth?

What part of this are you missing? What I'm saying is there are 70 million people similar to my buddy out there who are never gonna listen to you and you are never gonna listen to them. That is a recipe for a revolution eventually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_1619_Project Here is one of the sources fueling the belief that Democrats are trying to destroy American history and want to paint white man as villains that Fox News uses to rile up conservatives. I found out about this from buddies because Fox News is blasting it out as the Democrats pushing American revisionist history and white man as evil narrative.

What part of this are you missing? What I'm saying is there are 70 million people similar to my buddy out there who are never gonna listen to you and you are never gonna listen to them. That is a recipe for a revolution eventually.

What you're saying is nothing new at all. It's always been the same way forever - people view things differently with different lenses. If anything is different this time, we know it's because of you-know-who. The Radicalizer in Chief. As crazy as both sides have been, no one has been radicalized to the point of picking up a gun and starting a civil war since the last one ended. I don't think it will happen at this point, but if it does, I wouldn't be too surprised, and I don't think it will go very far. I'm still amazed how many republicans actually are in denial that Trump lost.

I-5 wrote:I'm still amazed how many republicans actually are in denial that Trump lost.

Here's a quote from former President George W. Bush:

"Though we have political differences, I know Joe Biden to be a good man, who has won his opportunity to lead and unify our country," Bush had said. "The President-elect reiterated that while he ran as a Democrat, he will govern for all Americans. I offered him the same thing I offered Presidents Trump and Obama: my prayers for his success, and my pledge to help in any way I can."

It comes in the middle of a poke-in-the-eye via a Christmas card that Bush sent to Trump:

"May the light of the holiday season shine bright in your heart now and throughout the New Year," the card's message reads.

The painting and its title come from a former President who has in the past leveled veiled criticism against Trump's immigration policies and was one of the first Republican figures to congratulate President-elect Joe Biden on his election win. Bush's choice to make the Statue of Liberty central to his card is symbolic of his past critiques of Trump. The statue was often one of the first sights that new immigrants to America would see as they entered New York Harbor and contains a poem by Emma Lazarus that is famous for its phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

The poem itself was targeted by a Trump administration official in 2019 who suggested it should be revised to only include immigrants "who can stand on their own two feet."

The holiday card from the only living former Republican president comes as Trump and his GOP allies continue to deny his election loss even after the Electoral College on Monday affirmed Biden's win.

But Bush was quick to congratulate Biden last month, both in a phone call and in a statement that said while Trump has the right to pursue legal challenges and recounts, the 2020 race was "fundamentally fair" and "its outcome is clear."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

I-5 wrote:What you're saying is nothing new at all. It's always been the same way forever - people view things differently with different lenses. If anything is different this time, we know it's because of you-know-who. The Radicalizer in Chief. As crazy as both sides have been, no one has been radicalized to the point of picking up a gun and starting a civil war since the last one ended. I don't think it will happen at this point, but if it does, I wouldn't be too surprised, and I don't think it will go very far. I'm still amazed how many republicans actually are in denial that Trump lost.

We'll see. I don't see it getting better myself. These folks on the right are growing angrier and more tired as they see what they believe in changing. The folks on the left are going after them more and more with radical ideas.

If Trump radicalized the conservatives and Republicans, who is radicalizing the left? Why are we seeing so many socialists in local and state government attacking companies like Amazon and pushing for radical left reforms like defund the police and universal basic income? Or attacks on police precincts? Just the pandemic?

Every year in Seattle during Mayday heightened security is out watching for Antifa and Anarchist protesters who vandalize property and attack companies in the City of Seattle. Who is radicalizing them?

Why are so many radical groups forming period at this point?

You seem to be ignoring what movements are growing in the Democratic Party that are pushing the right to form their own counter movements.

RiverDog wrote:Here's a quote from former President George W. Bush:

"Though we have political differences, I know Joe Biden to be a good man, who has won his opportunity to lead and unify our country," Bush had said. "The President-elect reiterated that while he ran as a Democrat, he will govern for all Americans. I offered him the same thing I offered Presidents Trump and Obama: my prayers for his success, and my pledge to help in any way I can."

It comes in the middle of a poke-in-the-eye via a Christmas card that Bush sent to Trump:

"May the light of the holiday season shine bright in your heart now and throughout the New Year," the card's message reads.

The painting and its title come from a former President who has in the past leveled veiled criticism against Trump's immigration policies and was one of the first Republican figures to congratulate President-elect Joe Biden on his election win. Bush's choice to make the Statue of Liberty central to his card is symbolic of his past critiques of Trump. The statue was often one of the first sights that new immigrants to America would see as they entered New York Harbor and contains a poem by Emma Lazarus that is famous for its phrase, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

The poem itself was targeted by a Trump administration official in 2019 who suggested it should be revised to only include immigrants "who can stand on their own two feet."

The holiday card from the only living former Republican president comes as Trump and his GOP allies continue to deny his election loss even after the Electoral College on Monday affirmed Biden's win.

But Bush was quick to congratulate Biden last month, both in a phone call and in a statement that said while Trump has the right to pursue legal challenges and recounts, the 2020 race was "fundamentally fair" and "its outcome is clear."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

Nice to see him taking a shot at the punk.