Presidential power

[RiverDog]

I have a high school classmate that just about every female in my class can't stand. He lives way beyond his means, in high school drove a Corvette convertible, has been accused of spiking women's drinks, has asked a classmate's daughter, 25 years younger than us, out on a date. He's always saying things in the presence of us guys like "boy, I'd like to F her", or "man, that b**** could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch" He's what I consider to be a prototypical womanizer.

I have another friend, a guy I would consider one of my best friends. He is relatively shy, at least in comparison to a big mouth like me. We never talked about sex, women, etc, rather our subject included work, sports, etc. He was married to his childhood sweetheart. At least the times I've been around him, he's never so much as turned his head when a very attractive woman walked by us. I was shocked to find out that he and his wife were getting divorced. Apparently they had both been unfaithful to each other, but I don't know any details. He was pretty embarrassed about it, didn't want to discuss his marriage problems with me or anyone else.

So you tell me: Which person do you have more respect for?

I respect the second couple. You can fall out of love and much easier fall out of lust. When that happens the spouse is either worth putting in the work for or the connection is just gone. In that case affairs start regardless of the personality of the person and at that point the honest thing to do is go our separate ways.

My first wife was an absolutely stunning 6 foot tall LA doll rock band groupie who had partied with the likes of Ted Nugent. As a small town Coulee City boy, totally naive I married her after knowing her 3 months. By the end 5 years later I was the only guy in our hometown she hadn't been with it seemed. I fought for that marriage but it was for the better.That divorce needed to happen .Like I say it takes 2 to tango. I had guys I considered friends playing sancho if I was out of town and that was with my 1 and 2 year old kids in the house...

My second marriage has lasted 28 years, weve had one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel a few times but we are still standing. Marriage is hard. Divorce is hard. Choose your hard.

My first wife cheated on me, too. It's an awful, gut wrenching emotion. I've lost several friends to suicide over busted marriages or love affairs. One of my friends from work, my right hand man who was as fun loving and friendly as they come, his wife announced to him and his family that she was leaving him. The following morning, their teenage son found him hanging from a rafter in their garage. I was more disturbed about that event than I was when my own mother passed away.

I'm glad you shared your life experiences. The whole point of this part of the discussion is that it's extremely common, and your comments, along with others, has helped reinforce this fact.

[Hawktawk]

I'm going to post an article friendly to her from the New Yorker. Even this article sounds crazy as hell. https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/e-jean-carrolls-accusation-against-donald-trump-and-the-raising-and-lowering-of-the-bar

E. Jean Carroll sounds batmuck crazy. I'm not going to argue it with you, but in this instance I don't believe this Carroll woman. Sounds like she did far too many drugs and is just casually talking about all the times she's been assaulted or what not as though it was a weekly occurrence. To me it seems like she's picked a good time to sell books by making herself a victim of the president.

If she has a case, the courts will figure it out. It won't be any criminal trial like you want, but maybe she can get some money and notoriety off Trump like she wants. That's a win for her. She sounds like character from Amercan Psycho, which makes sense since Trump was part of that New York high life in the book.

As far as you wanting Trump to get taken down, I'm still doubtful it happens. I doubt the accounting firms Trump pays to handle his books will have committed crimes on his behalf. The man's 74. Seems if they were going to catch him, they would have done it ages ago. But we shall see. We did see billionaire Jeffrey Epstein finally taken down for all his scumbaggery and Harvey Weinstein. So maybe you'll get your wish.

I count 5 or 6 incidents in 55 years of life counting Trump for a woman who was quite attractive in her younger to middle age years.That's far from unheard of. Some sort of weird playing doctor incident as a little kid? She drops named including Moonves who denies it but again, where's the lawsuit? A middle school cheerleader molested repeatedly at camp. Yep sounds absolutely believable and that stuff sets the table for the rest of a lot of girls lives happening at that age. A likely drunk boss chasing down an attractive woman in a hallway? I used to be in outside sales and anything went at conferences for lots of guys.Getting clothes cut of by a famous person in a hot tub? No denial I've heard from him and it sounds like she was cool with it, called it an adventure. Being cool with that doesnt make it ok for her to be assaulted in a totally separate incident..

None of that matters although she's very edgy and expressive in her style but remember she's a writer who has employed the same style for her entire career. Besides you are calling a woman crazy who was allegedly raped by a man far crazier.

Again, the courts have allowed it to proceed against the president of the united states for 2 years. She says she has DNA. He says he never met her and he's in numerous pictures with her in the article you shared.

I believe her until she's proven to be a liar and with DNA it ought to be pretty easy to find out who is telling the truth.

As far as Trump getting taken down I dont know what type of damages Carroll is asking but the other gal whose suit is tied up in justice dept is only asking for an apology and 2500 dollars i believe. Its about forcing Trump to admit he's a lying molester. As for Financial crimes there are reports leaking that the case against Trump in the SDNY is "well along" and Vance hired a forensic accounting firm to trace the money. Without the DOJ suppressing investigations I think trumps in deep doo doo fairly soon.

[Aseahawkfan]

I count 5 or 6 incidents in 55 years of life counting Trump for a woman who was quite attractive in her younger to middle age years.That's far from unheard of. Some sort of weird playing doctor incident as a little kid? She drops named including Moonves who denies it but again, where's the lawsuit? A middle school cheerleader molested repeatedly at camp. Yep sounds absolutely believable and that stuff sets the table for the rest of a lot of girls lives happening at that age. A likely drunk boss chasing down an attractive woman in a hallway? I used to be in outside sales and anything went at conferences for lots of guys.Getting clothes cut of by a famous person in a hot tub? No denial I've heard from him and it sounds like she was cool with it, called it an adventure. Being cool with that doesnt make it ok for her to be assaulted in a totally separate incident..

None of that matters although she's very edgy and expressive in her style but remember she's a writer who has employed the same style for her entire career. Besides you are calling a woman crazy who was allegedly raped by a man far crazier.

Again, the courts have allowed it to proceed against the president of the united states for 2 years. She says she has DNA. He says he never met her and he's in numerous pictures with her in the article you shared.

I believe her until she's proven to be a liar and with DNA it ought to be pretty easy to find out who is telling the truth.

As far as Trump getting taken down I dont know what type of damages Carroll is asking but the other gal whose suit is tied up in justice dept is only asking for an apology and 2500 dollars i believe. Its about forcing Trump to admit he's a lying molester. As for Financial crimes there are reports leaking that the case against Trump in the SDNY is "well along" and Vance hired a forensic accounting firm to trace the money. Without the DOJ suppressing investigations I think trumps in deep doo doo fairly soon.

Everyone on this forum and in the world knows Trump will go to his grave admitting nothing and apologizing for nothing. No court or anything will force that narcissistic loon to change his tune on just about anything. Trump's all about Trump. Whether people want to admit it or not he has huge amount of charisma and is a master salesman. You can't do what he's done without having that crazy charisma you see in figures like Trump that make people see their dreams in him and others see their nightmares. He uses that charisma for his own benefit. He's the Huey P. Long of 2020 on a national scale.

[Aseahawkfan]

With MLK, JFK, FDR, LBJ, Ike, and other notable leaders of ours, their adultery wasn't just "one act". They cheated on their wives on multiple occasions stretched over decades. Even though FDR was incapacitated by polio, he continued to meet with his mistress, Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd, of whom he had promised Eleanor that he would never see again, and concealed their relationship from her. He was with Ms. Rutherfurd on the day he died. Eisenhower's affair with his driver lasted for four years. LBJ reportedly had an affair that lasted over 20 years, and of course, JFK's multiple escapades are well known and documented.

Then there's Richard Nixon, of whom by all accounts was very faithful to his wife, yet he lied his ass off to the American public.

The point I'm trying to make is that even though we may personally disagree with adultery, it doesn't seem to be an indicator of a person's leadership qualities and that there have been many, many leaders of whom we hold in high regard that engaged in the practice.

No, it does not. A lot of negative traits don't seem to limit the ability of a person to become a leader as we've seen far too many times. Humans suffer from cognitive dissonance a lot. They seem to accept leaders of all kinds, even murderous leaders, if those people are powerful and capable leaders. Humans will overlook the most despicable of traits if they are getting what they need out of the relationship. Humans are what they are.

[RiverDog]

No, it does not. A lot of negative traits don't seem to limit the ability of a person to become a leader as we've seen far too many times. Humans suffer from cognitive dissonance a lot. They seem to accept leaders of all kinds, even murderous leaders, if those people are powerful and capable leaders. Humans will overlook the most despicable of traits if they are getting what they need out of the relationship. Humans are what they are.

I wouldn't call adultery a "despicable trait", at least not relative to other undesirable human flaws. What I consider to be despicable are sexual predators like Harvey Weinstein or a pedophile ala Jeffery Epstein. Again, I'm not defending or justifying the behavior, just saying that it shouldn't be considered a disqualifying factor for other occupations or positions within society.

[Hawktawk]

Everyone on this forum and in the world knows Trump will go to his grave admitting nothing and apologizing for nothing. No court or anything will force that narcissistic loon to change his tune on just about anything. Trump's all about Trump. Whether people want to admit it or not he has huge amount of charisma and is a master salesman. You can't do what he's done without having that crazy charisma you see in figures like Trump that make people see their dreams in him and others see their nightmares. He uses that charisma for his own benefit. He's the Huey P. Long of 2020 on a national scale.

100% agreed.

[Hawktawk]

The point I'm trying to make is that even though we may personally disagree with adultery, it doesn't seem to be an indicator of a person's leadership qualities and that there have been many, many leaders of whom we hold in high regard that engaged in the practice.
No, it does not. A lot of negative traits don't seem to limit the ability of a person to become a leader as we've seen far too many times. Humans suffer from cognitive dissonance a lot. They seem to accept leaders of all kinds, even murderous leaders, if those people are powerful and capable leaders. Humans will overlook the most despicable of traits if they are getting what they need out of the relationship. Humans are what they are.

I agree with this. Most people in the office of the presidency are charismatic and simply their position in the world draws people to them. And none more so than women. Its no different for rock stars, pro athletes etc. They are under a lot of stress, many are narcissists.I saw an interview with Roger Daltrey of the Who who flatly said" I love my wife but she understands that when Im on the road things are going to happen"

I read the accounts listed by RD of all these leaders who were adulterous and these were great leaders in many instances.I think their spouses understand the bargain in many instances.

The first guy who got popped in the modern media age was Clinton. As a bible thumping pastoral major and member of the moral majority, Rush listening Fox watching crowd I was indignant, disgusted.
The behavior was abhorrent for sure. But hindsight is literally and figuratively 2020.

Clinton presided over a mostly good economy with a far higher GDP than Trump. It was a relatively peaceful time in america. Unemployment was the lowest until the last couple years. He balanced his last 5 budgets as opposed to adding almost 9 trillion in the last 4 years, 5 trillion before covid.

He could laugh at himself at the press correspondents black tie dinner, laugh while being roasted instead of holding some rally spouting gibberish to a bunch of brain dead cretins due to having paper mache skin. Clinton could get impeached over a BJ on monday and invite a guy who voted to impeach out for lunch or a round of golf on tuesday.

I was so duped for so long about what really matters in a leader.


After the last 4 years I will put up with any personal peccadillos if the person is a competent caring leader with a stable personality who surrounds him or herself with smart people and listens to them.Call me a commander in chief voter.

[RiverDog]

I read the accounts listed by RD of all these leaders who were adulterous and these were great leaders in many instances.I think their spouses understand the bargain in many instances.

Some, perhaps, but not all. I've read a lot about FDR and his relationship with Eleanor. When she discovered his affair with Lucy Mercer, it almost caused a divorce and probably would have had the social mores of the time been less harsh on a divorced woman as they are today. She definitely didn't tolerate his behavior. FDR's continued relationship with his mistress was a closely guarded secret with visits arranged when Eleanor was away, which she often times was.

The first guy who got popped in the modern media age was Clinton. As a bible thumping pastoral major and member of the moral majority, Rush listening Fox watching crowd I was indignant, disgusted. The behavior was abhorrent for sure. But hindsight is literally and figuratively 2020.

Being that he was the President, Clinton was the highest profile politician to have experienced a sex scandal, but not the first in the modern era to 'get popped.' Gary Hart was the front runner for the Democratic nomination for POTUS in 1988 until his extramarital affair was revealed and forced him out of the race.

I had two basic problems with the Clinton scandal: First was the obvious one, that he lied about it under oath. The other was that it was with a subordinate. Both were government employees, and had I been having an affair with a subordinate of mine, especially if it were on company property like Clinton's was, the fact that it was consensual wouldn't have made any difference, I would have been thrown out like an old newspaper. It's also a security risk, as that kind of behavior makes a President subject to blackmail. The moral implications made no difference to me other than it confirmed my opinion that the man was a sleaze ball.

I remember a friend of mine, a former colonel in the Air Force, telling me about a female officer that was court martialed because she was having an affair with an enlisted man during the same period of time:

https://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1 ... sted%20man.

But in the end, I felt that my judgement at the time, that Clinton should have been impeached, was in error.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wouldn't call adultery a "despicable trait", at least not relative to other undesirable human flaws. What I consider to be despicable are sexual predators like Harvey Weinstein or a pedophile ala Jeffery Epstein. Again, I'm not defending or justifying the behavior, just saying that it shouldn't be considered a disqualifying factor for other occupations or positions within society.

Depending on the degree of adultery, I would consider it disqualification for certain jobs where such behavior is dangerous to their position like certain national security positions. Adultery is dishonest and makes you vulnerable. No idea why you want to write it off as nothing, but it isn't nothing. It is very much a character failure. It's dishonest, often hurtful to the other person, and depending on the circumstances shows a willingness to disregard oaths and hurt those you're supposed to care about. You're acting like it's some minor issue with no repercussions. Adultery is a very bad activity that is very hurtful and dishonest. The degree of despicableness is irrelevant as it is a despicable, low character act. I'm surprised you think it is acceptable behavior. Oh well. We've talked about it enough. I'll at least concede that it doesn't seem to affect much in the world save in those circumstances where it does. Not sure how often that is.

I will say I don't consider it adultery if both people stay married for reasons other than they like each other with an agreement that allows the other to date. I've seen this before where for financial reasons or kids they stay married for at least a while. But straight up lying, down low adultery is a terrible thing to do to someone you claim to love. It really hurts the person who has been lied to and even more terribly if you have children, it's hurts the children. I've watched this with friends. One of my friends young children stressed terribly when him and his wife broke apart due to her infidelity. She said some heartbreaking stuff about watching her family fall apart. The problems from cheating and the break up that follows often are terrible on the children.

[RiverDog]

I wouldn't call adultery a "despicable trait", at least not relative to other undesirable human flaws. What I consider to be despicable are sexual predators like Harvey Weinstein or a pedophile ala Jeffery Epstein. Again, I'm not defending or justifying the behavior, just saying that it shouldn't be considered a disqualifying factor for other occupations or positions within society.

Depending on the degree of adultery, I would consider it disqualification for certain jobs where such behavior is dangerous to their position like certain national security positions. Adultery is dishonest and makes you vulnerable. No idea why you want to write it off as nothing

If you had read my comments from above that noted my objections to Clinton's scandal, I can't understand how you would think that I was writing it off as "nothing." Here's part of what I said: It's also a security risk, as that kind of behavior makes a President subject to blackmail.

I will say I don't consider it adultery if both people stay married for reasons other than they like each other with an agreement that allows the other to date. I've seen this before where for financial reasons or kids they stay married for at least a while. But straight up lying, down low adultery is a terrible thing to do to someone you claim to love. It really hurts the person who has been lied to and even more terribly if you have children, it's hurts the children. I've watched this with friends. One of my friends young children stressed terribly when him and his wife broke apart due to her infidelity. She said some heartbreaking stuff about watching her family fall apart. The problems from cheating and the break up that follows often are terrible on the children.

I agree 100%, but that's not the point.