RiverDog wrote:It's as blatant of an attempt to undermine an election that I've ever heard from any elected official. Republicans need to get away from the POS.
But as I asked in the other thread, what can be done? Is a single phone call with implied threats constitute an attempt worthy of an arrest and filing of charges or does there have to be other more specific actions, like withholding of funds or physical violence? On who's authority can he be arrested? The Justice Department? The State of Georgia? I am not disagreeing with anyone, just searching for a legal explanation as to what the options are.
RiverDog wrote:It's as blatant of an attempt to undermine an election that I've ever heard from any elected official. Republicans need to get away from the POS.
But as I asked in the other thread, what can be done? Is a single phone call with implied threats constitute an attempt worthy of an arrest and filing of charges or does there have to be other more specific actions, like withholding of funds or physical violence? On who's authority can he be arrested? The Justice Department? The State of Georgia? I am not disagreeing with anyone, just searching for a legal explanation as to what the options are.
NorthHawk wrote:I heard someone say if he's run afoul of Georgia laws (something like subverting the State election) he could be prosecuted by them and could not be pardoned. But it would take a while and not be quickly effective enough to get him out of office before 16 days or less.
c_hawkbob wrote:You're totally unbelievable, that call, all of which is recorded, is absolutely enough for legal action and conviction! Butyour response doesn't surprise me at all, a video of someone shooting another person in the face wouldn't be conclusive evidence of murder in your book.
Hawktawk wrote:It’s criminal behavior . He clearly and repeatedly asks to have votes “ found” recalculating “
“You can just say you recalculated “ suborning election fraud . Threats about legal action and criminal acts by a sec of state and his attorney . It’s ridiculous to say this isn’t criminal behavior . It’s far from the first time but it’s probably the worst and most proven.
NorthHawk wrote:Which goes back to YES people telling him what he wants to hear and not the truth.
I-5 wrote:To turn the question around, what does 'look for votes' actually mean? They've already audited the election multiple times, and by hand. What is Trump requesting from Raffensperger that hasn't already been done yet?
I-5 wrote:Riv, if he truly believes something, without any supportive evidence except hearing his own voice and my own yes men/women around him repeating it, does that excuse his actions and efforts to intimidate a Georgia election official?
RiverDog wrote:We all agree that Trump is delusional, that he believes things that can't possibly be true. Based on his behavior that we witnessed over the past 4 years, I can believe that he genuinely thinks he won the election but that someone rigged it. A delusional mind doesn't need evidence to believe something and can rationalize in their minds what to the rest of us is blatantly obvious. There are people that truly believe that the Earth is flat or that we faked the moon landings despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
As far as Trump intimidating the election official, specifically what did Trump say that would intimidate him? Did he threaten him with some sort of retaliation if he didn't comply? When he said that people were angry, was that a threat that violence would ensue that might put their lives in danger if they didn't do what he was asking? The only thing I heard Trump say that could be construed as intimidation was that the Georgia SOS was committing a criminal act by not intervening.
We all agree that Trump is delusional, that he believes things that can't possibly be true. Based on his behavior that we witnessed over the past 4 years, I can believe that he genuinely thinks he won the election but that someone rigged it. A delusional mind doesn't need evidence to believe something and can rationalize in their minds what to the rest of us is blatantly obvious. There are people that truly believe that the Earth is flat or that we faked the moon landings despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
As far as Trump intimidating the election official, specifically what did Trump say that would intimidate him? Did he threaten him with some sort of retaliation if he didn't comply? When he said that people were angry, was that a threat that violence would ensue that might put their lives in danger if they didn't do what he was asking? The only thing I heard Trump say that could be construed as intimidation was that the Georgia SOS was committing a criminal act by not intervening.
I-5 wrote:My point, his intent or his sincerity means squat. If you catch someone attempting to commit a crime, but they sincerely think they are within their rights and entitled to do it....they still go to jail.
Trump issued a threat to both Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, the secretary of state’s general counsel, suggesting that if they don’t find that thousands of ballots in Fulton County have been illegally destroyed to block investigators — an allegation for which there is no evidence — they would be subject to criminal liability.
“That’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”
No matter how you want to slice and dice it, it's an attempt to pressure and intimidate. Thankfully, the entire call is available, so no one gets to cherry pick what they want.
RiverDog wrote:I do think that they should impeach Trump over this. It's a perfect time, a non election year and with a number of Republican Senators already pretty upset with him over his post election behavior. If the Dems win the two Senate elections tomorrow, in which case the R's may very well blame Trump for, they will only need 17 Republican votes to convict him in an impeachment trial and keep him from running again. I would much rather see that happen than attempt a legal prosecution.
I would like to see Biden stay out of this mess and let Congress do the dirty work. He has more important things on his pallet.
I-5 wrote:Yep, he knows he lost. He admitted before the election that no one liked him, probably because of his personality. One of his most accurate statements of the last 4 years. Does this sound honest to you?
"So look, all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state."
I-5 wrote:He hates it, but he is going down as a loser, the first 1-term president since Carter, and he is putting Nixon in a much better light now.
I-5 wrote:Sorry Riv, Trump does NOT think he won. He knows he lost, it's just that he just can't take the shame of facing it.
I-5 wrote:This is probably the best explanation I've heard about how narcissists are, told by sportswriter Rick Reilly talking specifically about Trump and how he plays (cheats) at golf:
"Narcissists don't feel shame. They just have to win. For him, not just losing, but not being #1 is like a bath to the wicked witch of the west". In the video, Reilly talks about catching Trump cheating multiple times and tells him to his face, and recounts a story from golf.com of Trump hitting his ball into the water on a Par 3 hole, which everyone saw, then Trump zooms in his cart up to the green and hits the ball of another player, telling the other player his ball is in the water...everyone saw it, but Trump didn't care, he just changed the narrative. That's what we're dealing with.
https://youtu.be/SW0LQLpMx54
Hawktawk wrote:He broke the law like a number of other times. This isn't the smoking gun. Its the firing gun. Busted, caught red handed and I'm sure there's plenty more.He discusses specific numbers of votes and threatens the election official and his attorney. Its mobster stuff. Anyone who thinks this is the only time he's spoken to an election official about his lost election in this fashion needs reality therapy.
The political ramifications of indicting a former president will be the only thing protecting him from this. Any other politician locally to nationally would be indicted right now. Itrs delusional to say this didn't break the law and if it didn't the laws need changed. Zero % OK with this.
And if the argument is he's so deluded he thinks he won so its ok to say these things(not the case but..) how is a man whose disconnected from reality be the commander in chief? The republican senate has sold this nation out to a psycho for their political ambitions. The SOB should have been gone at least 2 years ago, 4 actually.
I-5 wrote:“Bedwetting liberal?”
With all the editing and thought you put into each post, and you decided to leave that in? That would be like me calling my republican friends who I deeply respect but who I think are misled by this president ‘right wing nut jobs’. This is beneath you, Riv.
So what's your solution? Do you attempt a legal prosecution for violation of federal and/or state election laws or do you pursue impeachment?
There seems to be general agreement amongst us that what Trump did was wrong. The question is what remedy is most appropriate and/or most likely to succeed.
Some people think that this type of behavior if not punished will definitively change how politics is done and the extremists will take advantage of it. And if that happens
democracy as we know it will be gone. Others think this is a one and done Presidency and nobody else will be able to achieve power as Trump did.
But what if a GOP candidate is a QAnon believer and wins the Presidency? What then?
Democracy is far frailer than most people think and there's an old saying that goes "Freedom dies while people cheer".
I-5 wrote:“Bedwetting liberal?”
With all the editing and thought you put into each post, and you decided to leave that in? That would be like me calling my republican friends who I deeply respect but who I think are misled by this president ‘right wing nut jobs’. This is beneath you, Riv.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You first have to have the charisma and salesmanship of Trump to do what he is doing. It's not like that comes along that often. Sometimes what some folks do is not something you can replicate. Trump is not something easily replicated.
There's a reason we've never seen anything like this before and it's because no one has tried and had the salesmanship to manipulate America like this. For some reason when Trump followers hear this guy, they think he's great. The fact that a guy like Idhawkman, a Green Beret and highly intelligent guy, somehow believes Trump is one of the best presidents in history who was going to win by a landslide is bonkers to anyone watching Trump that dislikes him. But somehow Idhawkman was convinced.
Idhawkman doesn't even come to this forum any longer because he knows it is populated by Trump haters that don't even want to discuss the man in any other light than the context of their hate for him. If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't come here either.
Trump's a guy that truly falls into that category of you support him or you hate him. There's not much give. I don't think we'll see his like again for a long, long time. Imitators maybe, but no one with his convincing salesmanship and popularity capable of manipulating people on a massive scale.
Even once he leaves office, he has plenty of money and lawyers to fight on his behalf, drag this out, and likely inside information on a lot of opposing politicians to force a deal. Trump plays to win and usually has a lot of cards to play we don't and won't even know about. He may force a behind the scenes deal to walk away scot free.
Aseahawkfan wrote:There's a reason we've never seen anything like this before and it's because no one has tried and had the salesmanship to manipulate America like this. For some reason when Trump followers hear this guy, they think he's great. The fact that a guy like Idhawkman, a Green Beret and highly intelligent guy, somehow believes Trump is one of the best presidents in history who was going to win by a landslide is bonkers to anyone watching Trump that dislikes him. But somehow Idhawkman was convinced.
Idhawkman doesn't even come to this forum any longer because he knows it is populated by Trump haters that don't even want to discuss the man in any other light than the context of their hate for him. If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't come here either.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Trump's a guy that truly falls into that category of you support him or you hate him. There's not much give. I don't think we'll see his like again for a long, long time. Imitators maybe, but no one with his convincing salesmanship and popularity capable of manipulating people on a massive scale.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Even once he leaves office, he has plenty of money and lawyers to fight on his behalf, drag this out, and likely inside information on a lot of opposing politicians to force a deal. Trump plays to win and usually has a lot of cards to play we don't and won't even know about. He may force a behind the scenes deal to walk away scot free.
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