This phone call is ridiculous

[Aseahawkfan]

Where have all the powerful Republicans gone? How are they letting this piece of garbage ride on them like this? How are they tolerating this? Where have the respectable Republican politicians gone? Did they die with George Bush Sr.? Are they all too old now to stand up to this piece of garbage? I really thought Romney had more power, but I guess he's a voice in the woods.

Ted Cruz is proving to be a weak, two-faced ninny who is supporting a man who bad-mouthed his wife. I've never liked that melee-mouthed Canadian anyway.

What is wrong with these people allowing themselves to be abused by this piece of garbage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW_Bdf_jGaA

Man, this guy is taking narcissism to a level I can't even imagine. He's bullying this Georgia Secretary of State from his own party like he's some chump he can push around.

I have to give this Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. I give this man some credit for keeping his cool and maintaining his integrity with so little support from the Republican Leadership.

I hope the leak of this phone call was by Republicans mounting a underground assault on this piece of trash. Take him out and get rid of him.

[c_hawkbob]

Lets see: extortion, intimidation, sedition, election fraud ... all in one (not quite) perfect phone call. Is he going to be held accountable? I mean at all?!

[Aseahawkfan]

I keep wondering what people like McConnell think behind the closed doors. He's not supporting Trump as far as I can tell save by silence. I know he likes to keep Republican internecine strife in house. He seems to be of the mind to maintain your cool until the piece of trash is gone on January 20th. But at what point would McConnell finally have decided criminal actions were done by a sitting president? Should you let a president muscle up on a State Secretary? Where does McConnell draw the line? Does he view it as managing an angry child he's letting throw his tantrum before he leaves?

[RiverDog]

It's as blatant of an attempt to undermine an election that I've ever heard from any elected official. Republicans need to get away from the POS.

But as I asked in the other thread, what can be done? Is a single phone call with implied threats constitute an attempt worthy of an arrest and filing of charges or does there have to be other more specific actions, like withholding of funds or physical violence? On who's authority can he be arrested? The Justice Department? The State of Georgia? I am not disagreeing with anyone, just searching for a legal explanation as to what the options are.

[Hawktawk]

25th amendment. That's it. Hes long gone before impeachment heve hit first gear. 25th amendment is a few votes among congress people as well as members of the cabinet. But hell when Chief of Staff Mark Meadows is ON THE CALL, participating it ain't happening. I'm going to be lobbying Biden to pass a Democracy restoration act that makes a president more responsive to the congress and in the case of several things Trump has done direct contact by law enforcement.

Were he a governor or senator on the phone doing this stuff he'd already be in jail. I hope he doesnt start a war or declare martial law. He will possibly face legal jeopardy for this call after he leaves and lumped in with everything else he's facing criminally he's just got nothing to lose.When Dick Cheney among 10 other former Secs of Defense put out a joint letter cautioning against military involvement Its just bizarro world.

I am seeing this interesting dynamic.https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/532 ... toral-vote
Another R Senator, 2024 candidate has decided to be on the right side of history, albeit belatedly. Id love to see how this phone call which any idiot Trumpanzee should even be able to understand might affect this protest on Wed. Or more importantly how will history view their attempt when republicans go to the poll in the primaries.How can any american patriot still support Trump hearing that?

[NorthHawk]

It's as blatant of an attempt to undermine an election that I've ever heard from any elected official. Republicans need to get away from the POS.

But as I asked in the other thread, what can be done? Is a single phone call with implied threats constitute an attempt worthy of an arrest and filing of charges or does there have to be other more specific actions, like withholding of funds or physical violence? On who's authority can he be arrested? The Justice Department? The State of Georgia? I am not disagreeing with anyone, just searching for a legal explanation as to what the options are.

I heard someone say if he's run afoul of Georgia laws (something like subverting the State election) he could be prosecuted by them and could not be pardoned.
But it would take a while and not be quickly effective enough to get him out of office before 16 days or less.

[RiverDog]

It's as blatant of an attempt to undermine an election that I've ever heard from any elected official. Republicans need to get away from the POS.

But as I asked in the other thread, what can be done? Is a single phone call with implied threats constitute an attempt worthy of an arrest and filing of charges or does there have to be other more specific actions, like withholding of funds or physical violence? On who's authority can he be arrested? The Justice Department? The State of Georgia? I am not disagreeing with anyone, just searching for a legal explanation as to what the options are.

I heard someone say if he's run afoul of Georgia laws (something like subverting the State election) he could be prosecuted by them and could not be pardoned. But it would take a while and not be quickly effective enough to get him out of office before 16 days or less.

IMO there's not enough evidence for legal action. Granted, the phone call was clear and undeniable and has plenty of ear witnesses that were on the line when the conversation occurred and he was pressuring officials to "recalculate" and "find votes", but specifically what was it that Trump said that violated the law and can it be proven in court? It would seem to me that there would have to be something more tangible, like threatening to retaliate or an offer of a bribe, and outside of a reference that the SOS's actions could be interpreted as criminal, I didn't hear any threats of lawsuits, offers of bribes, of impending physical danger, anything of that sort that he said that a prosecutor could use to convince a jury of intent. It's not illegal to float a bunch of conspiracy theories.

The usual remedy would be impeachment as it was a clear abuse of power, but of course, that's not an option.

[c_hawkbob]

You're totally unbelievable, that call, all of which is recorded, is absolutely enough for legal action and conviction! Butyour response doesn't surprise me at all, a video of someone shooting another person in the face wouldn't be conclusive evidence of murder in your book.

[RiverDog]

You're totally unbelievable, that call, all of which is recorded, is absolutely enough for legal action and conviction! Butyour response doesn't surprise me at all, a video of someone shooting another person in the face wouldn't be conclusive evidence of murder in your book.

Oh, stuff it! I am asking a simple question to which neither you or anyone else has answered: What specifically has Trump done, what law is it that he violated? Hawktalk said he should be arrested. What is the charge? Can you link that charge with the available evidence we heard in the phone call? Who is to make the arrest?

I have read multiple articles and heard a half dozen or so commentators talk about it yet no one is proposing that Trump broke a law, whether that be an election violation, harassment, bribery, extortion, sedition, or whatever. It's clear that he broke his oath of office to uphold the Constitution and undeniably an abuse of power and the phone call itself was completely inappropriate, but what is there for a remedy besides impeachment?

North Hawk proposed that Trump might have violated Georgia law by subverting their election process, but specifically what was it that Trump said in the phone call that would cause one to come to the conclusion that what he said was subversive? That they "recalculate"? That they "look for votes"? Recalculation doesn't mean changing votes and looking for them doesn't mean forging them.

[RiverDog]

Here's what I'm talking about:

"As Members of Congress and former prosecutors, we believe Donald Trump engaged in solicitation of, or conspiracy to commit, a number of election crimes. We ask you to open an immediate criminal investigation into the President," the letter continues.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... cid=msnews

Criminal solicitation or conspiracy to commit a crime. I can go along with that and would call on the FBI or state investigators that it be thoroughly investigated and charges forwarded if they feel the evidence warrants it. But I'm not sure how far it will get if all he asked them to do was "find" or "recalculate" votes.

I'm hearing now that it's going to be very difficult to prove intent if Trump genuinely feels that he won the election.

[Hawktawk]

It’s criminal behavior . He clearly and repeatedly asks to have votes “ found” recalculating “
“You can just say you recalculated “ suborning election fraud . Threats about legal action and criminal acts by a sec of state and his attorney . It’s ridiculous to say this isn’t criminal behavior . It’s far from the first time but it’s probably the worst and most proven.

[RiverDog]

It’s criminal behavior . He clearly and repeatedly asks to have votes “ found” recalculating “
“You can just say you recalculated “ suborning election fraud . Threats about legal action and criminal acts by a sec of state and his attorney . It’s ridiculous to say this isn’t criminal behavior . It’s far from the first time but it’s probably the worst and most proven.

We'll see. It would seem to depend on Trump's intent. If Trump feels that he lost the election and is seeking to reverse the results, then he's probably guilty. But, if he genuinely feels that he won the election and is interested in "finding" votes that he thought were legitimately cast and were lost or that he wants them to correct what he thinks was a mathematical errors by "recalculating", then he's probably innocent. Or at least that's what the talking heads are saying.

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem to me that Intent would be extremely difficult to prove, at least when it's based on nothing but a single phone conversation.

[NorthHawk]

Which goes back to YES people telling him what he wants to hear and not the truth.

[RiverDog]

Which goes back to YES people telling him what he wants to hear and not the truth.

It's my opinion that Trump cannot admit to himself that he was rejected, that he'll accept the wildest of conspiracy theories to avoid having to accept the reality that he lost the election. Time after time, we've seen him make up stuff, blatantly lie, throw people under the bus, for no other reason than to protect his ego, to avoid having to take personal responsibility.

If that's the case, if he truly believes that he won the election, then he didn't violate any laws in that phone conversation. He did not request that they fabricate votes or report inaccurate results.

[I-5]

To turn the question around, what does 'look for votes' actually mean? They've already audited the election multiple times, and by hand. What is Trump requesting from Raffensperger that hasn't already been done yet?

Riv, if he truly believes something, without any supportive evidence except hearing his own voice and my own yes men/women around him repeating it, does that excuse his actions and efforts to intimidate a Georgia election official?

[Aseahawkfan]

This piece of trash clearly tried to get a State Secretary who manages elections to change the outcome of an election using legal pressure, social pressure, and insults. He sounded like some movie villain rich guy. Pretty pathetic.

This is the same guy that was accused of election tampering to help a Republican win by Stacy Abrams. He held his ground then, he's holding his ground now. This Republican Secretary of State who seems to do this job the way he's supposed to do it regardless of who is running was accused of tampering by the Democrats due to Stacy Abrams loss and now the same is being done by his own party and the party's leader because he refuses to alter the election information he has investigated and found to be accurate. Georgia should be the state they are most sure that the vote was accurately counted favorably to Republicans, but nope, Trump doesn't care. He's trying to pressure a member of his own party again like some Mafia Don trying to pressure made men. This guy can't go soon enough.

[RiverDog]

To turn the question around, what does 'look for votes' actually mean? They've already audited the election multiple times, and by hand. What is Trump requesting from Raffensperger that hasn't already been done yet?

Hell if I know what he means by "look for votes". Does he mean to look as in ballots that don't exist and to fabricate votes? Does me mean look for uncounted ballots sitting around in some warehouse? That's the problem, you can read a lot into that phrase.

Riv, if he truly believes something, without any supportive evidence except hearing his own voice and my own yes men/women around him repeating it, does that excuse his actions and efforts to intimidate a Georgia election official?

We all agree that Trump is delusional, that he believes things that can't possibly be true. Based on his behavior that we witnessed over the past 4 years, I can believe that he genuinely thinks he won the election but that someone rigged it. A delusional mind doesn't need evidence to believe something and can rationalize in their minds what to the rest of us is blatantly obvious. There are people that truly believe that the Earth is flat or that we faked the moon landings despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

As far as Trump intimidating the election official, specifically what did Trump say that would intimidate him? Did he threaten him with some sort of retaliation if he didn't comply? When he said that people were angry, was that a threat that violence would ensue that might put their lives in danger if they didn't do what he was asking? The only thing I heard Trump say that could be construed as intimidation was that the Georgia SOS was committing a criminal act by not intervening.

[Aseahawkfan]

We all agree that Trump is delusional, that he believes things that can't possibly be true. Based on his behavior that we witnessed over the past 4 years, I can believe that he genuinely thinks he won the election but that someone rigged it. A delusional mind doesn't need evidence to believe something and can rationalize in their minds what to the rest of us is blatantly obvious. There are people that truly believe that the Earth is flat or that we faked the moon landings despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

As far as Trump intimidating the election official, specifically what did Trump say that would intimidate him? Did he threaten him with some sort of retaliation if he didn't comply? When he said that people were angry, was that a threat that violence would ensue that might put their lives in danger if they didn't do what he was asking? The only thing I heard Trump say that could be construed as intimidation was that the Georgia SOS was committing a criminal act by not intervening.

Millions of people are delusional. I don't even know how you get people to believe evidence any longer. Everyone tends to believe whatever they want and call it "freedom" or "my opinion." It's back and forth with delusion. Not even sure who started it honestly at this level, maybe Trump. Maybe back in the 60s with "who shot Kennedy." It's just been massively increased with the advent of the internet and 24 hour news cycle with highly politicized media across all platforms.

You can say any crap and make it sound good. Right now some Republicans are saying, "Millions of Americans believe there was fraud. It is responsibility to investigate." These Republicans aren't wrong. Indeed millions of Americans believe there was fraud and that it should be investigated.

That where we're at right now.

[I-5]

We all agree that Trump is delusional, that he believes things that can't possibly be true. Based on his behavior that we witnessed over the past 4 years, I can believe that he genuinely thinks he won the election but that someone rigged it. A delusional mind doesn't need evidence to believe something and can rationalize in their minds what to the rest of us is blatantly obvious. There are people that truly believe that the Earth is flat or that we faked the moon landings despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

As far as Trump intimidating the election official, specifically what did Trump say that would intimidate him? Did he threaten him with some sort of retaliation if he didn't comply? When he said that people were angry, was that a threat that violence would ensue that might put their lives in danger if they didn't do what he was asking? The only thing I heard Trump say that could be construed as intimidation was that the Georgia SOS was committing a criminal act by not intervening.

My point, his intent or his sincerity means squat. If you catch someone attempting to commit a crime, but they sincerely think they are within their rights and entitled to do it....they still go to jail.

Trump issued a threat to both Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, the secretary of state’s general counsel, suggesting that if they don’t find that thousands of ballots in Fulton County have been illegally destroyed to block investigators — an allegation for which there is no evidence — they would be subject to criminal liability.

“That’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”

No matter how you want to slice and dice it, it's an attempt to pressure and intimidate. Thankfully, the entire call is available, so no one gets to cherry pick what they want.

[RiverDog]

My point, his intent or his sincerity means squat. If you catch someone attempting to commit a crime, but they sincerely think they are within their rights and entitled to do it....they still go to jail.

Trump issued a threat to both Raffensperger and Ryan Germany, the secretary of state’s general counsel, suggesting that if they don’t find that thousands of ballots in Fulton County have been illegally destroyed to block investigators — an allegation for which there is no evidence — they would be subject to criminal liability.

“That’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”

No matter how you want to slice and dice it, it's an attempt to pressure and intimidate. Thankfully, the entire call is available, so no one gets to cherry pick what they want.

Intent could make all the difference in the world. Here's why:

A key question is whether Trump actually requested that Raffensperger fabricate votes or was just offering his opinion on the results of the Nov. 3 election, said Georgia State University law professor Anthony Michael Kreis. In a possible prosecution, Trump likely would argue he was simply offering his genuine views on the election and not making a demand, Kreis said.

Criminal laws generally require a guilty state of mind, or a deliberate intent to carry out a crime. If Trump were prosecuted, he would likely argue that he genuinely believed the election was rigged against him, said Justin Levitt, an election law professor at Loyola Law School.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN2992C9

My point is that it's not cut and dried that Trump broke any laws and that any prosecution would be very dicey. What needs to happen is that Congress impeach him so he can't ever hold public office again, but we know that won't happen.

[Aseahawkfan]

Any sensible person knows this kind of trash shouldn't be happening. I know more than a few people that think the Democrats are so dishonest and powerful, they are capable of manipulating an election against Trump. It's stupid, but whatever. That's the time we live in. Lots of secret cabals with powerful and corrupt people who can install leaders in the highest positions of powers in foreign nations, blow buildings up to cause wars, manipulate elections on a national level, insert microchips in vaccines after releasing a deadly virus to cause the need for a vaccine, cannibal Satanists using a pizza parlor to sacrifice children that run the world, and the like. Crazy land and one of the crazies managed to win the presidency.

[RiverDog]

I do think that they should impeach Trump over this. It's a perfect time, a non election year and with a number of Republican Senators already pretty upset with him over his post election behavior. If the Dems win the two Senate elections tomorrow, in which case the R's may very well blame Trump for, they will only need 17 Republican votes to convict him in an impeachment trial and keep him from running again. I would much rather see that happen than attempt a legal prosecution.

I would like to see Biden stay out of this mess and let Congress do the dirty work. He has more important things on his pallet.

[Hawktawk]

I do think that they should impeach Trump over this. It's a perfect time, a non election year and with a number of Republican Senators already pretty upset with him over his post election behavior. If the Dems win the two Senate elections tomorrow, in which case the R's may very well blame Trump for, they will only need 17 Republican votes to convict him in an impeachment trial and keep him from running again. I would much rather see that happen than attempt a legal prosecution.

I would like to see Biden stay out of this mess and let Congress do the dirty work. He has more important things on his pallet.

I dont believe for one minute Trump actually thinks he won. He's just too mentally ill and narcissistic to admit it. It's the same mentality he used in 2018 when he tried to get Ukraine to open an investigation of Biden which had nothing to do with him thinking he had won something . He was cheating and breaking the law to win an election.Hes such a power mad despot he doesn't care about breaking the law. The senate has allowed him to be above it.

He pulled the same thing with NY federal prosecutor Preet Baraha who had been looking at Trump real estate dealings. Trump repeatedly called him, pumped him for information, tried to sweet talk him.Baraha said he had never seen anything like it, just mob boss stuff. When Baraha wouldnt schmooze with Trump he was fired after Trump had promised his job was safe.

Trump called The Georgia Sec of state 18 times!!!!https://www.ajc.com/politics/politics-blog/the-jolt-white-house-called-brad-raffensperger-18-times-before-he-took-donald-trumps-call/XMI3XYYULBFV7MM7EBIMDZNXTQ/

Id love to have tape of all the other communications with state officials, the conversations in the oval office with R state election officials.

As has been said infinitum he might well be in jail days after leaving the white house and everyone knows it including him. Impeachment is a complete waste of time and we dont have time to be dealing with it with all the other chaos going on and this pandemic about to utterly swamp america. He should have been removed already under the 25th amendment almost immediately into his term and his first impeachment should have happened the day Mueller testified to the congress. Let the SOB be crazy 16 more days or whatever and hope he doesnt start a war or declare martial law.( Our carrier group that had been ordered out of the persian gulf by the acting sec of defense was personally ordered to turn back by trump).

When the 20th hits lock his ass directly up and prosecute him to the full extent of the law. When america used to stand for something a guy like this would be in the brig for life or maybe even face a firing squad.Utterly treasonous POS I've gone full 180 on this since the election. Trump and his psychotic base need to learn a hard lesson.

[I-5]

Yep, he knows he lost. He admitted before the election that no one liked him, probably because of his personality. One of his most accurate statements of the last 4 years. Does this sound honest to you?

"So look, all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state."

He hates it, but he is going down as a loser, the first 1-term president since Carter, and he is putting Nixon in a much better light now.

[RiverDog]

Yep, he knows he lost. He admitted before the election that no one liked him, probably because of his personality. One of his most accurate statements of the last 4 years. Does this sound honest to you?

"So look, all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state."

You just proved my point! Trump thinks he won the election.

He hates it, but he is going down as a loser, the first 1-term president since Carter, and he is putting Nixon in a much better light now.

He sure does hate it. He can't stand it, and personally, I'm enjoying ever minute of his suffering what has to be the ultimate humiliation for him. I'm certain that I'm seeing a lot more humor in this than you guys are.

[Aseahawkfan]

The most convincing liar is the one that believes their own lies. I'm with Riverdog on this one. I think he really thinks he won and the Democrats screwed him. Same as when he hears the words Russia, he thinks it's a Democrat scheme to get him. He's a paranoid, delusional narcissist who sees the world as those with him and those against him.

[I-5]

Sorry Riv, Trump does NOT think he won. He knows he lost, it's just that he just can't take the shame of facing it. Think about it, he has never had to admit he lost before (even though he has lost plenty). He has always found a way to spin it, and he is going to try spin this loss eventually, but right now, he's doing everything he can to make people believe he won...but he knows he lost.

This is probably the best explanation I've heard about how narcissists are, told by sportswriter Rick Reilly talking specifically about Trump and how he plays (cheats) at golf:

"Narcissists don't feel shame. They just have to win. For him, not just losing, but not being #1 is like a bath to the wicked witch of the west". In the video, Reilly talks about catching Trump cheating multiple times and tells him to his face, and recounts a story from golf.com of Trump hitting his ball into the water on a Par 3 hole, which everyone saw, then Trump zooms in his cart up to the green and hits the ball of another player, telling the other player his ball is in the water...everyone saw it, but Trump didn't care, he just changed the narrative. That's what we're dealing with.

https://youtu.be/SW0LQLpMx54

[RiverDog]

Sorry Riv, Trump does NOT think he won. He knows he lost, it's just that he just can't take the shame of facing it.

The problem is that you're going to have to convince a jury of your argument. Intent is always the most difficult aspect of a crime to prove because you have to get inside a person's mind.

Here's what the federal law says:

The potential violation of federal election law centers on a provision that says it is a crime for a person "who in any election for federal office knowingly and willfully deprives, defrauds or attempts to deprive or defraud the residents of a state of a fair and impartially conducted election process."

Who are you to say that, based on one phone call, that Trump "knowingly and willingly" committed those acts? It's an extremely subjective question, and likely depends on your political persuasion. The opinions are far from conclusive.

Matthew Sanderson, an election lawyer in Washington, D.C., said the criminal intent requirements would make a case difficult to prosecute.... Prosecutors, however, "would need to demonstrate he knows he lost the election," Sanderson said, adding, "I think that's a tough case to bring against an individual who seems pathologically unable to recognize his own loss." The criminal statutes are meant to address things like shredding ballots and making payoffs, not conversations a candidate has with election officials, Sanderson said.

While the state statute "offers prosecutors a little more flexibility," he said, "I highly doubt this has legs on that front."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... t-n1252761

Opinions are all over the board on the question. The two of us could post link after link supporting each other's argument. As a matter of fact, you could go into the same article I linked and find statements that supports your view just as I have with the views I have expressed.

But in the end, you need to convince 12 jurors out of 12, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Trump is guilty of subjective language like "knowingly and willingly" based on evidence which so far includes a single phone conversation. If you can get witnesses from within Trump's inner circle, a John Dean-type that is willing to testify that Trump knew that the election was lawfully conducted and that he lost, that his stated object of the phone call was to subvert the election and that he was trying to convince election officials to alter the results in his favor, then you might stand a chance of winning.

I don't see that happening. That's why I feel that the best remedy for this is impeachment, that it has a lot better chance of success as all you need to do is convince 17-19 Republican Senators, of which aprox. 6 would convict him today. I think the odds of that are better than 100% of a jury selected more or less at random. Besides, impeachment would result in what we all want to see happen: It would disqualify Trump from running in 2024. Conviction of election fraud would not achieve that result.

[RiverDog]

This is probably the best explanation I've heard about how narcissists are, told by sportswriter Rick Reilly talking specifically about Trump and how he plays (cheats) at golf:

"Narcissists don't feel shame. They just have to win. For him, not just losing, but not being #1 is like a bath to the wicked witch of the west". In the video, Reilly talks about catching Trump cheating multiple times and tells him to his face, and recounts a story from golf.com of Trump hitting his ball into the water on a Par 3 hole, which everyone saw, then Trump zooms in his cart up to the green and hits the ball of another player, telling the other player his ball is in the water...everyone saw it, but Trump didn't care, he just changed the narrative. That's what we're dealing with.

https://youtu.be/SW0LQLpMx54

I didn't read the book myself, but a fried of mine of the past 30 years, a bedwetting liberal and my pre-pandemic golfing buddy, read a book on Presidents and their golf games: "First off the Tee":

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/196 ... ff_The_Tee

According to my friend, Clinton used to tee off and after his first swing, the one that's supposed to count and of which would land well off the fairway, would hit 4 or 5 additional "practice" shots, then would conveniently loose track of which ball he hit first until a secret service agent would point to the one ball that was 175 yards out and in the middle of the fairway and tell him "It's this one, Mr. President" and Clinton would oblige and hit his second shot from the one with the best lay.

Lots of people cheat at their golf game, more so than people cheat on their taxes. It's not a trait held exclusively by narcissists.

[Hawktawk]

He broke the law like a number of other times. This isn't the smoking gun. Its the firing gun. Busted, caught red handed and I'm sure there's plenty more.He discusses specific numbers of votes and threatens the election official and his attorney. Its mobster stuff. Anyone who thinks this is the only time he's spoken to an election official about his lost election in this fashion needs reality therapy.

The political ramifications of indicting a former president will be the only thing protecting him from this. Any other politician locally to nationally would be indicted right now. Itrs delusional to say this didn't break the law and if it didn't the laws need changed. Zero % OK with this.

And if the argument is he's so deluded he thinks he won so its ok to say these things(not the case but..) how is a man whose disconnected from reality be the commander in chief? The republican senate has sold this nation out to a psycho for their political ambitions. The SOB should have been gone at least 2 years ago, 4 actually.

[RiverDog]

He broke the law like a number of other times. This isn't the smoking gun. Its the firing gun. Busted, caught red handed and I'm sure there's plenty more.He discusses specific numbers of votes and threatens the election official and his attorney. Its mobster stuff. Anyone who thinks this is the only time he's spoken to an election official about his lost election in this fashion needs reality therapy.

The political ramifications of indicting a former president will be the only thing protecting him from this. Any other politician locally to nationally would be indicted right now. Itrs delusional to say this didn't break the law and if it didn't the laws need changed. Zero % OK with this.

And if the argument is he's so deluded he thinks he won so its ok to say these things(not the case but..) how is a man whose disconnected from reality be the commander in chief? The republican senate has sold this nation out to a psycho for their political ambitions. The SOB should have been gone at least 2 years ago, 4 actually.

So what's your solution? Do you attempt a legal prosecution for violation of federal and/or state election laws or do you pursue impeachment?

There seems to be general agreement amongst us that what Trump did was wrong. The question is what remedy is most appropriate and/or most likely to succeed.

[I-5]

“Bedwetting liberal?”

With all the editing and thought you put into each post, and you decided to leave that in? That would be like me calling my republican friends who I deeply respect but who I think are misled by this president ‘right wing nut jobs’. This is beneath you, Riv.

[RiverDog]

“Bedwetting liberal?”

With all the editing and thought you put into each post, and you decided to leave that in? That would be like me calling my republican friends who I deeply respect but who I think are misled by this president ‘right wing nut jobs’. This is beneath you, Riv.

It's a joke that I refer to a personal friend of mine as. Don't get so sensitive. I have friends/relatives that are Trump supporters that I refer to as "deplorables."

[I-5]

Yeah I know it's a joke. I'm not offended, but it's beneath this forum. Trump's true supporters love to call themselves deplorables, they take it as a badge of honor. It's no insult to them. I knew some types when I was in a fraternity at the U or Washington that reveled in being stupid, but we were only 20 at the time.

[NorthHawk]

So what's your solution? Do you attempt a legal prosecution for violation of federal and/or state election laws or do you pursue impeachment?

There seems to be general agreement amongst us that what Trump did was wrong. The question is what remedy is most appropriate and/or most likely to succeed.

That question really is the crux of the issue, isn't it.
Do you prosecute him which might or could cause pause to someone who follows Trumps lead but may be much smarter and tactically adept and who might also have autocratic
desires or do you try to just ignore him after he's gone and hope this fades away?

Some people think that this type of behavior if not punished will definitively change how politics is done and the extremists will take advantage of it. And if that happens
democracy as we know it will be gone. Others think this is a one and done Presidency and nobody else will be able to achieve power as Trump did.

But what if a GOP candidate is a QAnon believer and wins the Presidency? What then?

Democracy is far frailer than most people think and there's an old saying that goes "Freedom dies while people cheer".

[I-5]

Some people think that this type of behavior if not punished will definitively change how politics is done and the extremists will take advantage of it. And if that happens
democracy as we know it will be gone. Others think this is a one and done Presidency and nobody else will be able to achieve power as Trump did.

But what if a GOP candidate is a QAnon believer and wins the Presidency? What then?

Democracy is far frailer than most people think and there's an old saying that goes "Freedom dies while people cheer".

You nailed it, NH. That's exactly the issue. Anything we let this loser do and get away with (he's already done too much), just opens the door to the next despot in waiting. It sets a precedence. And we all know Trump isn't that smart, but the next guy for sure will be smarter. You can't just push a genie back into a bottle and expect life to go back. There is no going back.

[Aseahawkfan]

You first have to have the charisma and salesmanship of Trump to do what he is doing. It's not like that comes along that often. Sometimes what some folks do is not something you can replicate. Trump is not something easily replicated.

There's a reason we've never seen anything like this before and it's because no one has tried and had the salesmanship to manipulate America like this. For some reason when Trump followers hear this guy, they think he's great. The fact that a guy like Idhawkman, a Green Beret and highly intelligent guy, somehow believes Trump is one of the best presidents in history who was going to win by a landslide is bonkers to anyone watching Trump that dislikes him. But somehow Idhawkman was convinced.

Idhawkman doesn't even come to this forum any longer because he knows it is populated by Trump haters that don't even want to discuss the man in any other light than the context of their hate for him. If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't come here either.

Trump's a guy that truly falls into that category of you support him or you hate him. There's not much give. I don't think we'll see his like again for a long, long time. Imitators maybe, but no one with his convincing salesmanship and popularity capable of manipulating people on a massive scale.

Even once he leaves office, he has plenty of money and lawyers to fight on his behalf, drag this out, and likely inside information on a lot of opposing politicians to force a deal. Trump plays to win and usually has a lot of cards to play we don't and won't even know about. He may force a behind the scenes deal to walk away scot free.

[Hawktawk]

“Bedwetting liberal?”

With all the editing and thought you put into each post, and you decided to leave that in? That would be like me calling my republican friends who I deeply respect but who I think are misled by this president ‘right wing nut jobs’. This is beneath you, Riv.

Yeah how about the bedwetting Trumpanzee loser The president's supporters are nut jobs, not really conservatives, white nationalist cult members. Worse than any bed wetting liberal.

[Hawktawk]

You first have to have the charisma and salesmanship of Trump to do what he is doing. It's not like that comes along that often. Sometimes what some folks do is not something you can replicate. Trump is not something easily replicated.

There's a reason we've never seen anything like this before and it's because no one has tried and had the salesmanship to manipulate America like this. For some reason when Trump followers hear this guy, they think he's great. The fact that a guy like Idhawkman, a Green Beret and highly intelligent guy, somehow believes Trump is one of the best presidents in history who was going to win by a landslide is bonkers to anyone watching Trump that dislikes him. But somehow Idhawkman was convinced.

Idhawkman doesn't even come to this forum any longer because he knows it is populated by Trump haters that don't even want to discuss the man in any other light than the context of their hate for him. If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't come here either.

Trump's a guy that truly falls into that category of you support him or you hate him. There's not much give. I don't think we'll see his like again for a long, long time. Imitators maybe, but no one with his convincing salesmanship and popularity capable of manipulating people on a massive scale.

Even once he leaves office, he has plenty of money and lawyers to fight on his behalf, drag this out, and likely inside information on a lot of opposing politicians to force a deal. Trump plays to win and usually has a lot of cards to play we don't and won't even know about. He may force a behind the scenes deal to walk away scot free.

I think it's more about the people that follow him than any redeeming quality. To me he's not a bit charismatic.Every time I see his fat face I want to smash it. He's a dense ass who talks like a 5th grader, looks ridiculous with his fake tan and combover. He lies remorselessly. Hopelessly corrupt. I'm not sure how a white 58 year old eastern washington Rush listening Fox watching lifelong R , no college degree didn't get sucked in but I'm so proud i didn't. The guy is so bad its flabbergasting that he's got any support, especially now.Its a trance, a fever.Its a cult and most every reputable presidential historian has flatly said it at this point. You refernce ID Hawkman, a green beret, a patriotic american. I wonder how he really feels seeing this right now.

As for Trump's legal issues we will see exactly how much legal help he has, what kind of a deal he can get. I think his financial position is greatly overstated.He reportedly doesn't pay his lawyers and anyone else he can swindle. I think he's been relying on laundered Russian money for years but that just me.Most of his golf properties bleed green bigly but he operates in mostly cash for transactions

I think the actions of this man since this election have fractured his defenders in the republican party at the local and state level so we will see.

If anything protects him it is being a former POTUS . Otherwise I think he's cooked and he knows it which is why at a minimum he's raising money off it and fighting like hell to keep the office and its protections. I hope he winds up in a cell with a big friendly dude named Ramone

[RiverDog]

There's a reason we've never seen anything like this before and it's because no one has tried and had the salesmanship to manipulate America like this. For some reason when Trump followers hear this guy, they think he's great. The fact that a guy like Idhawkman, a Green Beret and highly intelligent guy, somehow believes Trump is one of the best presidents in history who was going to win by a landslide is bonkers to anyone watching Trump that dislikes him. But somehow Idhawkman was convinced.

Idhawkman doesn't even come to this forum any longer because he knows it is populated by Trump haters that don't even want to discuss the man in any other light than the context of their hate for him. If I were a Trump supporter, I wouldn't come here either.

I don't know a lot of Trump supporters quite like Idahawkman, and I wish he hadn't have bailed like he did, but I don't blame him, either. Same way with burrton, who wasn't nearly as fanatical, more like an apologist. Those two balanced things out.

Trump's a guy that truly falls into that category of you support him or you hate him. There's not much give. I don't think we'll see his like again for a long, long time. Imitators maybe, but no one with his convincing salesmanship and popularity capable of manipulating people on a massive scale.

Well, I sure hope we don't see another person quite like Trump. I'm cautiously optimistic that we won't see another politician like him in my lifetime, but I've been wrong before.

Even once he leaves office, he has plenty of money and lawyers to fight on his behalf, drag this out, and likely inside information on a lot of opposing politicians to force a deal. Trump plays to win and usually has a lot of cards to play we don't and won't even know about. He may force a behind the scenes deal to walk away scot free.

It will take some time, that's for sure. Even if they do get a conviction, I'd be stunned if he had to serve time.