What To Do About Trump

[RiverDog]

For the past few days, I've been struggling with the proposition as to what should be done to hold Donald Trump accountable for what is in my opinion is an impeachable act as by encouraging an insurrection, he violated his oath of office to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". But how?

The way I see it, we have 4 options: The first is the 25th amendment. IMO that option is going to be virtually impossible as it not only requires the cooperation of the Vice President, who likely won't agree, but also 50%+1 of a cabinet that has been thinned of likely supporters of such a measure by the recent departure of two that resigned. In addition, if Trump were to catch wind of this effort, he could immediately fire any member, rendering their signature moot. It also would not do anything to insure that he could not run for office again.

The 2nd option is impeachment. Initially I thought that this would be the best course of action, but I'm having my doubts. The two main values of impeachment is that a conviction would bar Trump from holding office again and it would lay down a historical marker on the ugly events we witnessed this past week. The House can easily pass an article of impeachment and can do so very quickly, as early as next week. But the Senate, even if they wanted to, may not be able to take it up until after the inauguration. Majority Leader McConnell has said that Senate rules prohibit them from taking it up before 1/19, and they have some very pressing business in the weeks ahead in confirming Biden's cabinet nominees. Additionally, there hasn't been very many R Senators that have come out and supported impeachment, and for good reason: It would be a major distraction to the incoming administration and we have a pandemic that we're fighting. A conviction would require affirmative votes from all Dem solons and 17 Republicans.

The 3rd option is to let Trump leave office then charge him in federal court. This option is not very attractive to me as a trial would last a year or longer, it would keep Trump almost constantly in the news, provide his followers with a perpetual martyr, it would be virtually impossible to seat a fair and impartial jury, and any conviction would be subject to appeal, dragging it out even longer.

The 4th option is to do nothing and let Trump die on the vine.

Comments?

[NorthHawk]

My understanding is that if the House votes to impeach him, they can proceed in the Senate even after he leaves office.
Sanders says that they should do so in order to send a message to any future President and that might also be an option.
I have some sympathy for that idea because I think someone will take Trump's lessons and try again sometime down the road.

[RiverDog]

My understanding is that if the House votes to impeach him, they can proceed in the Senate even after he leaves office. Sanders says that they should do so in order to send a message to any future President and that might also be an option. I have some sympathy for that idea because I think someone will take Trump's lessons and try again sometime down the road.

It's debatable, but most observers agree that impeaching, or at least holding an impeachment trial after Trump leaves office, is possible. There is a precedent, but it goes all the way back to 1874 when President Grant's Secretary of War resigned before the Senate could hold an impeachment trial. The Constitution says that the Senate will have "the sole authority" to try all impeachment cases, so the courts are not likely to accept any challenges.

An impeachment trial wouldn't last as long as a criminal trial and it can't be appealed, so in that regard, it would be less of a distraction in the long run. But the prospects of a conviction appear dim, and trying but not getting him could make it worse than not having tried at all.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/jeanine-pir ... me-antifa/

Not exactly on topic but even this old battle axe Trumpanzee is spreaking out now. Sorry you hag the bloods on your hands .

25th amendment . Impeachment will take too long and the main thing is our national security . Trump is so toxic he will never run again . Most national security experts are terrified of the next 9 days . They know this puts us in great danger of a military foe like Russia launching almost in self defense as our cowardly politicians allow this clearly desperate deranged man to remain in command .

[RiverDog]

25th amendment . Impeachment will take too long and the main thing is our national Security . Trump is so toxic he will never run again . Most national security experts are terrified of the next 9 days . They know this puts us in great danger of a military foe like Russia launching almost in self defense as our cowardly politicians allow this clearly desperate deranged man to remain in command .

The 25th Amendment simply won't happen. With the resignations of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos and Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, there are now fewer cabinet members that might vote to remove. Additionally, Mike Pence is very unlikely to agree to it. Unlike impeachment, it would not prevent Trump from running again in 2024.

I'm confident that the military will continue business as usual and remain on guard for any external threats. As we discussed earlier, there are safeguards in place to keep Trump from forcing the military to carry out an illegal order.

[I-5]

Ironically, even though he has been a willing lackey to his boss the past 4 years and himself has ambitions to the White House, I’m glad that Pence is still there, and multiple reports I’ve read say he isn’t closed to the idea of invoking the 25th if it gets to that point. Who knows what happens in the next few days, but I don’t think it’s an understatement to say these are some of the most dangerous times in our history because of the mental instability of the sociopath sitting in the WH. Code or no code.

I myself favor the impeachment route for exactly the reasons Bernie Sanders said. It’s the most practical and the most likely. Bernie is such a good guy.

[Hawktawk]

Pence has indeed signaled he had not ruled out the 25th amendment . Having hear the chilling “ hang mike pence “ chants from trumps thugs I am mystified why he hasn’t . Maybe he fears for his safety . That’s where we’re at.

[RiverDog]

I myself favor the impeachment route for exactly the reasons Bernie Sanders said. It’s the most practical and the most likely. Bernie is such a good guy.

I think so, too, but only if they're confident that they can get enough Republican Senators, at least 17 assuming all the Dems/independents vote affirmatively, to convict him. Failing to do so could embolden both Trump and his band of lunatics.

So far, Ben Sasse is the only R Senator that I've heard say that he would consider it.

[RiverDog]

Pence has indeed signaled he had not ruled out the 25th amendment . Having hear the chilling “ hang mike pence “ chants from trumps thugs I am mystified why he hasn’t . Maybe he fears for his safety . That’s where we’re at.

What Pence said was that he has not "completely" ruled it out and it would depend if Trump were to become more unstable. But even if Pence were to agree, that still would require half the cabinet that Trump has packed with loyalists. Plus Trump could pre-empt such a move by firing anyone he thinks might vote to remove him.

If it happens, great, but don't hold your breath.

[I-5]

We are all holding our breath - we have no other choice. This guy was never going to leave of his own accord, election or not. Some of us saw it coming a long time ago, and some more recently. I hope that eventually even his strongest followers will see who he really is, but who are we kidding? Trump himself was embarrassed by his ‘low class’ supporters according to aides who watched his reaction to the riots in real time, not because of their actions, but because of how they looked. A narcissist to the end. He is that far gone.

[Hawktawk]

I just read an account from a congressman who objected to the certification who said he did so out of fear for himself and what they might do to his family . It’s being reported on meet the press .
It’s pointless to even mention what a superspreader event this was with plane loads from all over the country and back after thousands of maskless protesters . Just more blatant disregard for the lives of people .

[I-5]

I just read an account from a congressman who objected to the certification who said he did so out of fear for himself and what they might do to his family . It’s being reported on meet the press . I just read an account from a congressman who objected to the certification who said he did so out of fear for himself and what they might do to his family . It’s being reported on meet the press .

Wow - really? Mafia style. That’s why his name is Don.

[Hawktawk]

We are living in the twilight zone . A second phone call interfering with an audit in Georgia “ find the fraud and you will be considered a great American “ and now this insurrection . Incredible. I asked after the election what we were gonna go through in the almost 3 months . Well we know and these 9 days are some of the most dangerous in our history .

[I-5]

Not exactly on topic but even this old battle axe Trumpanzee is spreaking out now. Sorry you hag the bloods on your hands .

I just watched the video of this...she's trying to absolve her own role in fanning the flames that led to this violence...too late

[Aseahawkfan]

Impeach him if Pence won't invoke the 25th Amendment. Impeach him while they have the power to do so. Republicans are trying to handle this in house and it isn't working. Make sure he can't run again.

Then pursue him legally. Burn the coward down and his cowardly family.

You want to try to start a revolution, then run like a b**** when the heat is on you deserve to be burnt down.

[Aseahawkfan]

We are all holding our breath - we have no other choice. This guy was never going to leave of his own accord, election or not. Some of us saw it coming a long time ago, and some more recently. I hope that eventually even his strongest followers will see who he really is, but who are we kidding? Trump himself was embarrassed by his ‘low class’ supporters according to aides who watched his reaction to the riots in real time, not because of their actions, but because of how they looked. A narcissist to the end. He is that far gone.

I'm not holding my breath. I don't fear this man at all. Trump is fricking lucky there aren't any Republicans like me up there. I would go after his sorry ass in public. I'd fight his Trumpanzees straight up fisticuffs if they got in my face.

That cowardly son of a b**** would be sent running. I don't know where this Republican Party has gone because I know for certain if Trump tried this garbage when George Bush Sr. or Dick Cheney we're in their primes, he'd be getting his ass handed to him. Say what you will about George Sr. or Cheney, they were not men to take this Trump trash lying down like so many of these Republicans seem to be doing right now.

I'd be calling this coward and his sycophants out. I don't know how anyone can look at this guy and allow this. He literally ran after riling the crowd up. He wasn't leading from the front. He wasn't in the crowd leading them. He wound them up then ran. How can you respect that kind of leader?

The Republicans should be blasting this coward for what he is. A big mouth with no balls.

[RiverDog]

I was stunned when I heard this a few minutes ago:

Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking.

A source familiar with the relationship between the two men told CNN that McConnell is furious with Trump. The source said McConnell "hates" Trump for what he did last week following the attacks on the Capitol that left at least five people dead including a Capitol Hill police officer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/m ... hment.html

If that is true, then there is a very real possibility that Trump will get convicted in an impeachment trial and it could happen before the 20th. If McConnell comes out for impeachment, expect a number of other R's to follow suit.

Apparently if both the Senate Majority Leader, McConnell, and the Senate Minority Leader, Chuck Schumer, agree that there is an emergency that they can call the Senate into session before they are scheduled to meet on the 19th.

This would be a far better option than evoking the 25th or pursuing him through the justice system.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/12/top-mil ... n-win.html
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/1 ... ult-458356

Its extraordinary times we are living in as it becomes more clear there are plenty of active duty and retired military people in this cult. These military commanders must be very worried about what could happen in the next few days.

Will Trump attempt to declare martial law? he's back to raging like a loon, denies any responsibility for what he's done.Could we see a green on green incident? Anyone who thinks some troops and commanders wouldnt go for it is not paying attention. Biden is having to purge his secret service staff and vet the police that will be at his inauguration as it is. More and more capitol hill cops are under investigation for actively facilitating this.

And just curious to know how many of these 15 K guard troops believe in made up stories too. Scary. We've jumped the shark. American democracy will never be the same.

[I-5]

At this point, nothing we say about the danger the country is in would be an overstatement, despite what Jim Jordan, Hannity, and any other sycophants say. If Trump thought he could institute martial law he would absolutely not hesitate. But right now, I don’t see him being able to pull it off, even though I agree with those who point out that are plenty of Trump loyalists in the police and military. I think what’s keeping us safe so far is that the bad guys...I mean Trump loyalists, know they’re on the wrong side, because there is a growing number of republicans who are coming out strong and telling them the emperor has no clothes. I think the more intelligent ones know.

One of my Trump friends tried to convince me he had nothing to do with the riots because he didn’t physically participate, and I told her that her argument would absolve a lot of unsavory characters like Charles Manson. She was arguing that everyone has to take ‘personal responsibility’ but I told her that doesn’t absolve the role leaders play, and in this case, Trump is the very source of the fabricated anger that incited them. She stopped trying to convince me.

[RiverDog]

You two are overlooking the thread title: What to do about Trump.

What happened today with the revelation of Mitch McConnell's comments are extraordinary. If they are true, it could change the entire dynamics of an impeachment trial. Did that escape you guy's notice?

[Aseahawkfan]

8 more days. America is crazy right now.

[I-5]

What happened today with the revelation of Mitch McConnell's comments are extraordinary. If they are true, it could change the entire dynamics of an impeachment trial. Did that escape you guy's notice?

Nope I saw that in the news. I could tell Mitch was pissed the day it happened. He was almost shaking. Good that he sees the bigger picture. Even McCarthy seems like he understands the gravity of the situation we’re in. We will see, like you say.

[Hawktawk]

Its really one of the historic tragedies in hindsight that Trump wasn't removed after being impeached last time.

Colluding with Russia to win in 2016 and then picking up the phone and calling Ukrainian president Zelenski the day after Mueller's testimony to the congress and and beginning his attempt to steal the 2020 election didn't matter to them. It took a near death experience for them to see what this bipolar turfgrass janitor saw in 2015. They saw it too but it was politically expedient to toe the line and put 327 million people in daily peril with the man as commander in chief. F them. They can kiss my arse in front of the post office and give me half an hour to draw a crowd.Traitors one and all.Stop the steal indeed. Its a total self own, up is down and black is white

I have no respect or sympathy for turkey neck McConnell or any of the other Senators who have coddled and run interference for a despotic madman. I'm thankful nobody in the congress died but had one of his shills been beaten to death by Trump fascist mob it would have served them right.

I'd say better late than never except it's too late with 4200 deaths yesterday from a runaway virus Trump has given up on and our troops on alert for a civil insurrection. As terrified as I've been for 4 years I could not have envisioned it would get this bad.

[I-5]

Well, he waited until the last hour of his presidency to actually speak presidentially. I welcome his words if it tones down the potential violence, but if you've already been radicalized and planning something, how do you process these calls of peace from your Dear Leader? Do you take it at face value, or think of it as code for 'proceed with plans'? My gut says by tomorrow, he will say something that completely undermines this speech...I hope I'm wrong, but I haven't been yet.

Also, what do the DC rioters think of this speech...that they are getting thrown under the bus by a president trying to save his hide?

https://youtu.be/hDNiNdsPHNA

[I-5]

I would add,Trump left out any acknowledgment of his role in inciting the mob. As someone says, you can’t be the arsonist and the firefighter.

He also glaringly omitted any mention of our next lawfully elected president, because...Trump

This speech only had one goal; to convince GOP senators who are thinking of voting to impeach him to think otherwise.

Like I said, he’ll probably backtrack to his normal self by tomorrow.

[Hawktawk]

I would add,Trump left out any acknowledgment of his role in inciting the mob. As someone says, you can’t be the arsonist and the firefighter.

He also glaringly omitted any mention of our next lawfully elected president, because...Trump

This speech only had one goal; to convince GOP senators who are thinking of voting to impeach him to think otherwise.

Like I said, he’ll probably backtrack to his normal self by tomorrow.

Just watched Joe Scarborough replay the teleprompter retard speech in segments and juxtapose it against clips from his ad lib speech on the 6th. Devastating. Just pure evil to be able to be so dishonest and only a brain dead cretin would believe a word of it was true.
I said it yesterday. He doesn't mean anything he reads off the teleprompter. Its about trying to limit his legal liability if theses nuts blow up stuff and kill people. And they dont even care what he said. They follow his ad lib commands.

There are reports he was in a rage after taping that, attacking McConnell, vowing he would never concede to Biden....When I see his big fat ass waddling down the steps for the last time I might relax a little, not much but Im as worried as I've ever been as an American about my country. I still rule out absolutely nothing this desperate man might try to do.

[RiverDog]

There were 10 Republican Congressmen, including my rep, Dan Newhouse, that voted to impeach Trump, along with all the Dems and independents. It's not known how long it will take the House to transmit the article of impeachment to the Senate but McConnell has said it won't be taken up before the 19th, and as we know, Biden's inauguration is on the 20th. There's also the business of confirming Biden's cabinet nominations.

As for the chances of obtaining a conviction in the Senate, unlike the previous impeachment where nearly all Republicans had come out and declared their intentions not to convict, it's pretty murky this time. While a number, including McConnell himself, have indicated they feel Trump may have committed an impeachable offense, none have actually come out and said that they support a conviction. Everyone is keeping their cards close to their vest. Plus there is a Dem Senator, Manchin of WV, that said he doesn't support impeachment.

Just a rough count of possible affirmative R votes would include Thune, Sasse, Murkowski, Collins, Cotton, Toomey, Romney, and McConnell. They would need 9 or 10 more, depending on how Machin votes, about 1/3 of the Republican delegation. IMO if McConnell comes out for conviction, it would provide cover for other R's that may want Trump purged from the party.

So, whether we like it or not, Trump is going to dominate the news for a period of time after the inauguration. My opinion is that impeachment is the quickest and most effective way to render Trump irrelevant and the only way to insure that he doesn't run again in 2024.

[Hawktawk]

There were 10 Republican Congressmen, including my rep, Dan Newhouse, that voted to impeach Trump, along with all the Dems and independents. It's not known how long it will take the House to transmit the article of impeachment to the Senate but McConnell has said it won't be taken up before the 19th, and as we know, Biden's inauguration is on the 20th. There's also the business of confirming Biden's cabinet nominations.

As for the chances of obtaining a conviction in the Senate, unlike the previous impeachment where nearly all Republicans had come out and declared their intentions not to convict, it's pretty murky this time. While a number, including McConnell himself, have indicated they feel Trump may have committed an impeachable offense, none have actually come out and said that they support a conviction. Everyone is keeping their cards close to their vest. Plus there is a Dem Senator, Manchin of WV, that said he doesn't support impeachment.

Just a rough count of possible affirmative R votes would include Thune, Sasse, Murkowski, Collins, Cotton, Toomey, Romney, and McConnell. They would need 9 or 10 more, depending on how Machin votes, about 1/3 of the Republican delegation. IMO if McConnell comes out for conviction, it would provide cover for other R's that may want Trump purged from the party.

So, whether we like it or not, Trump is going to dominate the news for a period of time after the inauguration. My opinion is that impeachment is the quickest and most effective way to render Trump irrelevant and the only way to insure that he doesn't run again in 2024.

I've ripped Newhouse in emails since the psycho was elected demanding that he do his job which most importantly is oversight of the executive branch, stop supporting the madness and endangering america.He's never been needed in the last 2 years as the Dems had the house but it doesn't matter.Its still taking a stand.He never replied to a single Email I sent him.


I dont know what to think now. I guess better late than never. I fear when the ash heap of history digs up the remnants of America there will have been a time to stop this madman and save hundreds of thousands of lives as well as our democracy. That was the first impeachment of a man proven by then to be wholly unfit for office, a clear and present danger willing to do anything to hold power and clearly guilty of impeachable offenses. I'm no big Adam Schiff man but he said in his speech at that time "what are the odds this man will do this again if not held accountable? 100%

No sympathy for Newhouse. The fearful cries of his lifelong constituent don't matter. It took an attack on his workplace trying to intimidate him into not certifying an election to wake him up.

[RiverDog]

No sympathy for Newhouse. The fearful cries of his lifelong constituent don't matter. It took an attack on his workplace trying to intimidate him into not certifying an election to wake him up.

Newhouse did not supported objections by members of his party to the electoral vote count. Here's what he said on Monday the 4th:

U.S. Rep. Dan Newhouse said Monday (Jan. 4th) he will vote to certify the Electoral College results.

In a tweet posted Monday, Newhouse, a Republican from Sunnyside, voiced support for a statement from several House Republicans saying Congress “must count the electoral votes submitted by the states.”

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/pol ... 74870.html

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that "It took an attack on his workplace trying to intimidate him into not certifying an election to wake him up", indeed, there's plenty of evidence to support the exact opposite.

Are you thinking about E. Washington's other Rep., Cathy McMorris Rogers?

[Hawktawk]

Mr Newhouse along with every member of the house and all but one senator in his party voted to acquit DJT. This after he had committed treasonous actions trying to manipulate a foreign country to destroy a political opponent using 500 million in congressionally approved lethal aid as the carrot/stick.Newhouse used social media to defend Trump and I never heard a peep out of him regarding this stop the steal BS until Jan 4 and that's 2 months after Biden won. zero credit.

McMorris Rodgers makes me physically ill, what a snake. Ran away from trump like a track star, didn't even mention him in one ad and now that the fascist skinheads have elected her she's back on the Trump train. She can burn in hell.

Mitt Romney, god bless the man and even a few others like Collins of maine and little Marco( he's miniature these day) knew the ukrainian scandal was a crime worthy of impeachment, particularly on the heels of the despicable actions regarding Russia.Trump placed the call to Zelenski DAY AFTER Mueller described his un american actions with Russia in the bipartisan congress.


Romney did what no senators vote had ever done. Vote against a president in his party. Rubio admitted it might be impeachable but " we have an election in ten months. This will tear america apart" Susan Collins" he touched the hot stove and I think he's learned his lesson." Now here we are. 100 times worse violations of law than those he should have been impeached for, jailed for. And about this election deciding exactly what? They just kept on enabling and here we are.We've forgotten the illegal acts pressuring and defaming poll workers and republican state officials. When the president has conducted criminal acts specifically to get and stay elected can we just STFU about let the voters decide on a corrupt president?

I'll say this for the ten including Newhouse. They are taking a huge risk with their careers and their lives. I saw a capital hill reporter say had it been a secret vote there would have been at least 50 republican house members vote to impeach but they are so fearful not only for their careers but their personal safety.Jeff Flake said he knew at least 35 republicans that would have voted to remove trump in Jan were it not for fear of careers and safety.

This is a classic recipe for a fascist totalitarian regime, a banana republic with nukes. Why do you think Putin gets all the votes along with every other dictator who even goes through the motions of having an election?

I've said it before, when its an impeachment they are jurors, not legislators and they should be able to have a secret ballot so as not to face danger or retribution for voting in the interest of democracy. Its the only way to perhaps restore some guardrails on a runaway executive branch but that's another discussion.

In the short term the left wing of the Democrat party is BLM and ANTIFA and the right wing of the republican party is neonazis who beleive in made up stories and pack major heat. I'm not sure why and politician of any stripe would want fanatics as a constituency.

[NorthHawk]

It looks like there will be a vote to impeach in the Senate later in the year with the Dems holding the power so maybe they will have a secret vote then.
This would have a chance to give some more breathing space for Republicans to vote what they really want and if they also vote to not permit Trump to
run again, it also limits some of his influence. He could only then be yelling from the sidelines and be a Monday morning QB.

[RiverDog]

Mr Newhouse along with every member of the house and all but one senator in his party voted to acquit DJT. This after he had committed treasonous actions trying to manipulate a foreign country to destroy a political opponent using 500 million in congressionally approved lethal aid as the carrot/stick.Newhouse used social media to defend Trump and I never heard a peep out of him regarding this stop the steal BS until Jan 4 and that's 2 months after Biden won. zero credit.

McMorris Rodgers makes me physically ill, what a snake. Ran away from trump like a track star, didn't even mention him in one ad and now that the fascist skinheads have elected her she's back on the Trump train. She can burn in hell.

Newhouse's vote to certify the election and having had the courage to have been in a group of less than 5% of the members in his party that voted for impeachment deserves zero credit? And a law abiding citizen, the elected representative of over half a million people, and mother of 3 young children can go burn in hell?

I realize that we all come in here to blow off steam and at times we might say things that we may not truly mean, but if this type of unforgiving, uncompromising, and hateful attitude is in any way typical of how the two sides feel about each other, then we truly are in deep trouble and may be heading for a civil war.

[Aseahawkfan]

Newhouse's vote to certify the election and having had the courage to have been in a group of less than 5% of the members in his party that voted for impeachment deserves zero credit? And a law abiding citizen, the elected representative of over half a million people, and mother of 3 young children can go burn in hell?

I realize that we all come in here to blow off steam and at times we might say things that we may not truly mean, but if this type of unforgiving, uncompromising, and hateful attitude is in any way typical of how the two sides feel about each other, then we truly are in deep trouble and may be heading for a civil war.

I would say Hawktawk does not represent the middle of any party. He's mildly extreme on any side he is on. He picks a side and goes hard. Even when he was Republican, he was hardcore on the Republican side. When he hates Trump, he really hates Trump and anyone on Trump's side.

I'm sure our elected people will act more sensibly, at least most of them.

[RiverDog]

I would say Hawktawk does not represent the middle of any party. He's mildly extreme on any side he is on. He picks a side and goes hard. Even when he was Republican, he was hardcore on the Republican side. When he hates Trump, he really hates Trump and anyone on Trump's side.

I'm sure our elected people will act more sensibly, at least most of them.

I wasn't necessarily calling out Hawktalk and I didn't mean to sound condescending. My point is that I don't think that he is alone, that there's way too many individuals on both sides of the issue that all too often cross over the boundary of an acceptable dialog between people with different POV's, and not in a more or less private forum amongst a handful of friends like we are here.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wasn't necessarily calling out Hawktalk and I didn't mean to sound condescending. My point is that I don't think that he is alone, that there's way too many individuals on both sides of the issue that all too often cross over the boundary of an acceptable dialog between people with different POV's, and not in a more or less private forum amongst a handful of friends like we are here.

This isn't a time for tolerance apparently. Maybe you've been ok chatting with folks, I don't know. I haven't

My mother is a hardcore Trump supporter. I have had to stop talking to her for periods of time. Never seen her go extreme like this. Trump has svengali like powers on a mass scale. A few friends are hardcore Trump supporters as I've stated on here. I've not broached certain topics with them in an aggressive manner. I left it alone as they are caught up in the emotion of supporting Trump and buying into Trump's, "If you don't support him, then you're against America" crap. I've been called a Democrat supporter and I haven't voted for a Democrat maybe ever.

Yet I'm accused of being a Democrat supporter by Trump supporters. This is exactly why I don't vote for this clown. Donald Trump is not a real Republican. He's the R.I.N.O. He's a salesman pretending to be a Republican on his own political reality T.V. show where he's the center of attention selling all these uneducated, ideologically brainwashed Republicans that he's some kind of savior. They're lapping it up. Donald Trump has likely never read the Constitution and barely knows it. He knows as a salesman he can spin his followers up with carefully prepared sales pitches using the Constitution, freedoms, liberties, religion, and the like. He's a lying salesman spinning people up with carefully crafted sales pitches that appeal to their emotions and beliefs. I can't stand that either.

Trump supporters don't even bother to read the document they purport to support. If they had, they would know that Mike Pence was right to support the electoral college. Trump was lying to them about being able to overturn the election. There is no support for Congress to overturn elections.

But none of these people read to understand what they support, really on the left or right. They are driven by buzz words like The Constitution, Freedom, Wealth Inequality, Systemic Racism, Illegal Immigrants, and all this carefully craft crap to drive them against each other. When are they gonna wake up and stop being used as pawns in the power games of other people.

It's utterly flabbergasting that we the wealthiest nation in the world, one of the most advanced, can't get our people educated enough and can't engage in sensible politics to the point we can create a prosperous nation for all and that we're fighting this much amongst ourselves because we're basically stupid. A clown salesman, former reality T.V. star is putting us at each other's throats. What a f-in embarrassment.

[RiverDog]

People are absolutely crazy right now, and I'm convinced more than ever that a lot of it has to do with the pandemic. I just got through reading an article talking about airlines having to put numerous passengers on no fly lists due to their verbal harassment of Mitt Romney and Lindsey Graham to put a number of passengers on no fly lists due to their heckling of Mitt Romney. I've seen a lot of very contentious times, but never have I seen people behave like they have these past few months. I think people are on edge, with the mask wearing mandates, the shut downs, social distancing, and other unprecedented measures. We are a social species.

[NorthHawk]

I think the pandemic is a part of the issue, but I also think people were a lot like this prior to the
impact of the virus but the virus just added some to it. The fealty and cult like following for DT was
well established before 2020 and didn’t just appear after the virus spread.

[RiverDog]

I think the pandemic is a part of the issue, but I also think people were a lot like this prior to the impact of the virus but the virus just added some to it. The fealty and cult like following for DT was well established before 2020 and didn’t just appear after the virus spread.

I'm sure that there's a lot of causes for this current divide. There's always been an under current in American society that is anti government, whether it be the Montana Freemen, Waco, the take over at Mauhaer in SE Oregon, etc. Social media got it out into the mainstream. Trump, either intentionally or unintentionally, hit the right button. But there's little doubt that the pandemic and the associated shut downs are one of the major reasons behind the irrational and violent reactions.

I read an article where some restaurants have armed guards where they re-open against the government mandates prohibiting indoor dining.

The states with the strictest dining rules are led by Democratic governors and the protests have consequently attracted the support of right-wing groups that, in some cases, have stationed armed individuals at business entrances and organized protests on behalf of owners

https://www.cbs17.com/news/defiance-of- ... -flounder/

The right wing protests in Michigan this past summer were in response to that state's pandemic related mandates, and they happened to be led by a Democratic governor.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure that the pressure of the pandemic caused it as much as it's an opportunity for those extremists to do the evil they do.
They are always looking for a cause and if it wasn't the pandemic, it would be something else, in this case probably the so called
stolen election.

[Hawktawk]

I would say Hawktawk does not represent the middle of any party. He's mildly extreme on any side he is on. He picks a side and goes hard. Even when he was Republican, he was hardcore on the Republican side. When he hates Trump, he really hates Trump and anyone on Trump's side.

I'm sure our elected people will act more sensibly, at least most of them.

Oh blah blah blah. yeah I'm letting off steam. Get a friggin grip. I'm very proud to have escaped the far right cult I was in my whole life, thankful.Im never going back to supporting this party of nazis.Im the guy that's been sounding the clarion call for 4 years now regarding the DANGER OF TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE and getting accused of TDS, libtard, snowflake etc etc etc. That I seem a bit shrill now hating the most despicable excuse for a human ever to infest the white house and those enablers strictly because they want to stay in office well excuse me very little. There's razor wire around the capital and our legislators fear for their lives,. we may not be able to have a safe inauguration for the man I and 80 million voted for and Im too shrill for you all. I'm not a bit sorry. Had more republicans had a conscience we would not be here. The man would have been gone long ago.