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As a man raised in a pentecostal church, a believer in Christ who has studied the book extensively I am sickened by the bastardization of faux christianity and its marriage to DJT. I was driving through Moses Lake and there was a dumpy house with all the windows covered with red white and blue professionally made banners. One on the top said Jesus Christ is my savior. The bottom part of the same banner said Trump 2020 .Polls show consistently that Evangelicals were the bedrock supporters of trump, the pussy grabbing thrice marries corrupt psycho businessman because they say abortion so bad.Their faith is under attack they say. I say you are correct, the enemy is yourself. Interestingly they were the demographic MOST in favor of the draconian family separations on the border. That's not what Jesus would have done, not what he ever did on this earth.

Now you see a guy like the reprehensible Graham saying something like this about people already in danger of their lives. I dont care what his family name is. I'm sure Billy is turning over in his grave watching what a fool his son has become.

And RD if youre reading this I believe there's a hell and its got a space reserved for people like this that couldn't spell god if you spotted them the G the O and the D.

As an Atheist, I look at all those people that rake in the money like nobody's business as shysters and charlatans whose only goal is to drain the bank accounts of gullible people.
DJT is doing something similar on a smaller scale with his plea for donations to his PAC (or whatever it's called). It's simply a grift with no benefits for the donor.

When it comes to hypocrisy, the Evangelicals have plenty of company. Women's groups had a fit over Bob Packwood's pats on the fanny at the water cooler and eventually ran him out of town, yet they denounced Paula Jones and defended Slick Willy and his cigar.

Politics trumps (no pun intended) morals.

NorthHawk wrote:As an Atheist, I look at all those people that rake in the money like nobody's business as shysters and charlatans whose only goal is to drain the bank accounts of gullible people.
DJT is doing something similar on a smaller scale with his plea for donations to his PAC (or whatever it's called). It's simply a grift with no benefits for the donor.

Well to each his own . I agree these mega pastors like osteen and Graham are sleaze . I had to roflmao when Falwell Jr got busted for sitting in his Speedo’s filming his wife with the 20 year old pool boy . It’s a perfect metaphor for the trump evangelical union . I gave up on organized religion decades ago but my faith is strong . I know there’s a god who has protected me, saved me from death numerous times and gives me peace to the degree it’s possible . I don’t feel gullible about it at all . It’s one reason I’m furious about these people hijacking a simple faith to somehow justify voting for a hate filled evil fascist .

I was thinking Graham, Osteen, and others and not local Pastor types who live normal lives according to their beliefs.

I've never heard of Trump talking about God save when he was running for president. Never seen him in a Church save when he was running for president. Never even heard him talking about God save when he was running for president. Don't recall him ever thanking God for any of his wealth or mentioning God in The Art of the Deal. Trump to my knowledge after reading his book and following his work since I was 16 has never been interested in religion. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't think of religious folk as suckers that he can easily manipulate.

But the Evangelicals are locked in that the Democrats are trying to destroy religion and marginalize God because that is what Marxist Communists and Socialists are purported to be doing and the right has successfully sold the Democrats as the Party of Karl Marx and his "religion is poison" Communists and Socialists.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I've never heard of Trump talking about God save when he was running for president. Never seen him in a Church save when he was running for president. Never even heard him talking about God save when he was running for president. Don't recall him ever thanking God for any of his wealth or mentioning God in The Art of the Deal. Trump to my knowledge after reading his book and following his work since I was 16 has never been interested in religion. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't think of religious folk as suckers that he can easily manipulate.

But the Evangelicals are locked in that the Democrats are trying to destroy religion and marginalize God because that is what Marxist Communists and Socialists are purported to be doing and the right has successfully sold the Democrats as the Party of Karl Marx and his "religion is poison" Communists and Socialists.

Yes you make my point. Trump is a vulgar amoral evil man but these evangelicals latched on to him for ideology. And abortion and their perceived lack of religious freedom to discriminate against gays, muslims etc anyone who doesn't look and think like them. But there's no love in these people and certainly no love in their messiah. They are chock full of hatred. The weirdest thing is that they literally think there was some miracle that was going to deliver the presidency to a roundly soundly beaten man.They have combined religion with fanatical cult politics and its no better than radical islam what they are doing , far more of a clear and present danger. Jesus believed in separation of church and state. "render unto caesar what is caesar's and unto the lord what is the lords".

I know nobody wants to hear a sermon, especially an atheist but as a believer I'm just gonna say the days we live in lately sound a lot like what's written in revelation. And that's the last book in the bible. "In that day men will come to me and say lord lord. and I will say "get thee from me, I never knew you"

The real irony is Biden will be the first regular churchgoing president in quite some time, clearly is a compassionate empathetic man. He's the Christian.But marxism bad That's fake news. Fascism far worse.

NorthHawk wrote:I was thinking Graham, Osteen, and others and not local Pastor types who live normal lives according to their beliefs.

I've seen plenty of "shysters and charlatans" in local pastor types. Our next door neighbor quit going to the church she had been patronizing because the Pastor and his family were living high on the hog driving a new Mercedes and built a swimming pool in their backyard. I've also personally witnessed a pastor pocket money of a man that left his home to the church pocket the proceeds of the sale. I get the impression that the government doesn't go after individuals or organizations with a religious affiliation because they don't like the graphics.

Yah, there are crooks and others that take advantage of people in all walks of life, but then there are some that rake in millions of tax free cash and are supported for some unknown to me reason.
They're on quite a different level.

NorthHawk wrote:Yah, there are crooks and others that take advantage of people in all walks of life, but then there are some that rake in millions of tax free cash and are supported for some unknown to me reason.
They're on quite a different level.

True, but the only difference is one of scale.

There were hundreds of thousands of little old ladies sending in their social security checks to people like Jim & Tammy Bakker, Oral Roberts, etc. They were every bit as brainwashed as those that believe in Trump's conspiracy theories. Heck, my ex wife believed that professional wrestling was a genuine sporting venture. Every time I tried to tell her that it was all rehearsed, she'd cuss at me.

Hawktawk wrote:Yes you make my point. Trump is a vulgar amoral evil man but these evangelicals latched on to him for ideology. And abortion and their perceived lack of religious freedom to discriminate against gays, muslims etc anyone who doesn't look and think like them. But there's no love in these people and certainly no love in their messiah. They are chock full of hatred. The weirdest thing is that they literally think there was some miracle that was going to deliver the presidency to a roundly soundly beaten man.They have combined religion with fanatical cult politics and its no better than radical islam what they are doing , far more of a clear and present danger. Jesus believed in separation of church and state. "render unto caesar what is caesar's and unto the lord what is the lords".

I know nobody wants to hear a sermon, especially an atheist but as a believer I'm just gonna say the days we live in lately sound a lot like what's written in revelation. And that's the last book in the bible. "In that day men will come to me and say lord lord. and I will say "get thee from me, I never knew you"

The real irony is Biden will be the first regular churchgoing president in quite some time, clearly is a compassionate empathetic man. He's the Christian.But marxism bad That's fake news. Fascism far worse.

Trump is an amoral man, which I knew when he ran. Evil? I've seen more evil than Trump, not many more self-centered and narcissistic though.

I've known a lot of religious folk in my life. The weirdest thing to me is the conservative religious folk are usually some of the nicest, most community oriented people I've known, far more so than many liberal atheists I've known. They'll bake cookies for people. Take care of their parents. Help in the community. Take care of their families and grandchildren. Do just about anything for their kids. Great people. But for some reason they are firmly convinced Democrats are anti-religious Marx loving socialists looking to take away their religion, kill babies, and hate America.

Even the cognitive dissonance in their view of economic polices is astounding at times. I listen to Democrats basically talk economics that are more in line with their community and religious beliefs, but they don't seem to grasp it. It all seems to translate in their mind to the Democrats are trying to trick them so they can take their religion, kill babies, and hate America.

The way humanity thinks is very odd and inconsistent much of the time.

I was born and raised Catholic all my life, what you might call a 'good catholic' in that I went to church every Sunday, communion, the works...my mom even wanted me to consider being a priest, to which I said 'heck no'! When I started attending a more dynamic church at the U of W that happened to be Presbyterian, that really worried my parents, but in the end, although I do have faith in God as HT does, I also am not a churchgoer. Over time, I've come to see that what you do is much more important than what you say, or even what you believe.

I think it's not insignificant that Biden is just the 2nd ever Catholic to hold the highest office in the land, and I happen to think he is exactly the right kind of religious man you'd want for the job especially at this time. Although he definitely is religious, and his values are probably right in line with mainstream catholicism, he is also wise enough to not be dogmatic about it, and refuses to pursue laws that make others adhere to his beliefs. This is a stark contrast to Mike Pence's approach, another deeply religious man, who makes it clear what his agenda would be if he were to become president.

As HT pointed out, the irony is extreme that Christians (both protestand and many catholics) aligned themselves with a man that has never cracked open the bible, instead of the actual religous guy. I should know, my mom is one of them. You can guess how much we talk about politics at family zoom gatherings...

[quote="Aseahawkfan"
Trump is an amoral man, which I knew when he ran. Evil? I've seen more evil than Trump, not many more self-centered and narcissistic though.

I've known a lot of religious folk in my life. The weirdest thing to me is the conservative religious folk are usually some of the nicest, most community oriented people I've known, far more so than many liberal atheists I've known. They'll bake cookies for people. Take care of their parents. Help in the community. Take care of their families and grandchildren. Do just about anything for their kids. Great people. But for some reason they are firmly convinced Democrats are anti-religious Marx loving socialists looking to take away their religion, kill babies, and hate America.

Even the cognitive dissonance in their view of economic polices is astounding at times. I listen to Democrats basically talk economics that are more in line with their community and religious beliefs, but they don't seem to grasp it. It all seems to translate in their mind to the Democrats are trying to trick them so they can take their religion, kill babies, and hate America.

The way humanity thinks is very odd and inconsistent much of the time.[/quote]

Asea I guess we can get into semantics on what to call trumps soul or in my opinion lack of soul. The man is soulless. I return to my faith,the spirit that dwells in me.Its where my fear and loathing of Trump came from and it was immediate .

You have pointed out correctly that I was a rigid right wing ideology with no use for Obama and my political views were consistent from my youngest days, Carter, Clinton etc. Rs could do no wrong and Ds could do no right.
Demographically I should have been magnetically attracted to Trump with my track record. But Asea the thing with Trump is I sensed EVIL when he was halfway down the escalator. I sensed chaos. disorder. I've listened to people tell me i'm way over the top, he's just an A hole, maybe not too bright but harmless. Well.......

What would describe evil? A man who sexually abuses women? A man who spends each and every day in hate filled rage against his perceived enemies while ignoring the most important aspects of his job? A remorseless liar who told a fantastic lie over and over to people who already believe in made up stuff to the point people died,our nation is a powderkeg, locked down? And did it for the selfish reason of trying to stay out of prison for his lifelong corruption and acts in this election cycle?A man who hasn't even mentioned the pandemic in 6 weeks but has time to incite a riot then go on a teleprompter and say he didn't? A man incapable of ever admitting he was wrong or even accepting he might be wrong.?

My spirit told me 5 years ago this is an evil man. It hasn't told me otherwise yet and see no evidence the man will ever change. he's gonna burn hotter than Charles Manson unless he gets on his face and repents and good luck on that.

I saw a poll this AM that says 66% of evangelical christians believe the election was stolen while 33 % believe it wasnt. How one person in america can look at the chronology of events, the lawsuits, all the steps of certification and conclude this was stolen just demonstrates they are in an evil cult, totally deluded, serving a false god.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/617707/ Here's a good article written by Ben Sasse adressing the pickle the republican party is in.

Hawktawk wrote:Asea I guess we can get into semantics on what to call trumps soul or in my opinion lack of soul. The man is soulless. I return to my faith,the spirit that dwells in me.Its where my fear and loathing of Trump came from and it was immediate .

You have pointed out correctly that I was a rigid right wing ideology with no use for Obama and my political views were consistent from my youngest days, Carter, Clinton etc. Rs could do no wrong and Ds could do no right.
Demographically I should have been magnetically attracted to Trump with my track record. But Asea the thing with Trump is I sensed EVIL when he was halfway down the escalator. I sensed chaos. disorder. I've listened to people tell me i'm way over the top, he's just an A hole, maybe not too bright but harmless. Well.......

What would describe evil? A man who sexually abuses women? A man who spends each and every day in hate filled rage against his perceived enemies while ignoring the most important aspects of his job? A remorseless liar who told a fantastic lie over and over to people who already believe in made up stuff to the point people died,our nation is a powderkeg, locked down? And did it for the selfish reason of trying to stay out of prison for his lifelong corruption and acts in this election cycle?A man who hasn't even mentioned the pandemic in 6 weeks but has time to incite a riot then go on a teleprompter and say he didn't? A man incapable of ever admitting he was wrong or even accepting he might be wrong.?

My spirit told me 5 years ago this is an evil man. It hasn't told me otherwise yet and see no evidence the man will ever change. he's gonna burn hotter than Charles Manson unless he gets on his face and repents and good luck on that.

I saw a poll this AM that says 66% of evangelical christians believe the election was stolen while 33 % believe it wasnt. How one person in america can look at the chronology of events, the lawsuits, all the steps of certification and conclude this was stolen just demonstrates they are in an evil cult, totally deluded, serving a false god.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/617707/ Here's a good article written by Ben Sasse adressing the pickle the republican party is in.

Defining evil is an incredibly difficult endeavor other than the obvious like murdering people or raping children. So not sure how to rate Trump on the magical evil scale.

I listened to 5 years of George Bush Jr. being called a war criminal that should be tried for war crimes due to starting the Iraq War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War This lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of Americans not including the wounded. So if you believe that George Bush Jr. was a war criminal that started an illegal war, who is more evil: Trump who inflamed the culture war in America or Bush Jr. who started the Iraq War?

I believe George Bush Jr. for all the claims of being a war criminal did what he did with the firm belief that he thought he was doing what he believed was best for the United States of America. I never doubted for a second that George Bush Jr. believed in and loved America, even though his actions lead to two wars that cost Americans and the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq much pain and chaos.

How precisely do we rate evil? A lot of presidents and politicians are deemed to have done evil things. I talked with a Bosnian who insists Bill Clinton signed a deal with the Serbians while overlooking the murder of 10,000 Bosnian villagers and he considers Bill Clinton evil for doing so. I knew nothing about this at that age, but apparently it is common knowledge in Bosnia that Bill Clinton sold out the Bosnians to Serbia, which I find strange since the Bosnian intervention was often considered successful foreign policy in America.

Here's what I know and have said for years. Trump's a narcissistic, self-centered man. He's selfish in his pursuits. He's a liar or salesman, whichever way you want to see it. He has proven in the end here to have no regard whatsoever for anything but his personal gain, power, or what not even to the point of self-delusion and by association deluding his supporters. He's a race baiter and likely a racist. He wants the world to see him as a powerful man even if it means ignoring the danger of a virus to himself and Americans. He's not a great leader being unable to do what is right when it costs him politically as proven by his dismissive attitude towards the coronavirus and pursuit of election fraud claims while the nation was suffering. He has so many character flaws that don't make him a great leader at all.

But how evil is he? I can't really say. He's not a very murderous person save in the same manner as every president since Bush in signing Drone Assassination orders. He carried out several Federal death penalty sentences, but I'm not particularly anti-Death penalty. And five people died in the capitol riots his election fraud claims inspired. But he wasn't pro-War and pushed back on the war hawks in his administration to prevent any wars during his tenure. I believe he was the first Republican president not to have a major war during their administration since Reagan? Reagan did have the Iran-Contra Scandal and the Contras did some really evil stuff in El Salvador, which is partially responsible for its terrible state today.

Other than the obvious cases, people tend to call others evil who they dislike or hate. Trump supporters right now look at Democrats as evil and Joe Biden as some kind of dark, illegitimate president. These extreme viewpoint seem to build up the divisiveness in the nation.

Personally, right now I borderline hate Trump for what he's done this past year. He's been an absolutely terrible leader during the coronavirus and the final weeks of his presidency. It is awful to see a president so selfish and narcissistic that he would pursue this terrible, selfish election fraud crap while America suffers up to inspiring a capitol riot. Trump has never been able to sacrifice for others. He's only about himself. He's clearly the most selfish, self-centered, narcissistic president in history. His only saving grace that has saved us from far worse is he's not a war lover. If he had been the same man he is now and wanted to go to war, we would have a Civil War or some other war right now. I'm glad at least the anti-War part of his personality prevented a far worse 4 years than it would have been otherwise.

2 more fricking days.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Defining evil is an incredibly difficult endeavor other than the obvious like murdering people or raping children. So not sure how to rate Trump on the magical evil scale.

I agree with you about trying to rate evil. We all have our own definitions. Mine is a very narrow one that includes people like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer. In my book, Donald Trump fits my description of lot of things, including a narcissist, a racist, a coward, a spoiled rich kid, a moron, and may, indeed, be mentally ill. But evil is not where I would place him.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Personally, right now I borderline hate Trump for what he's done this past year. He's been an absolutely terrible leader during the coronavirus and the final weeks of his presidency. It is awful to see a president so selfish and narcissistic that he would pursue this terrible, selfish election fraud crap while America suffers up to inspiring a capitol riot. Trump has never been able to sacrifice for others. He's only about himself. He's clearly the most selfish, self-centered, narcissistic president in history. His only saving grace that has saved us from far worse is he's not a war lover. If he had been the same man he is now and wanted to go to war, we would have a Civil War or some other war right now. I'm glad at least the anti-War part of his personality prevented a far worse 4 years than it would have been otherwise.

I define hate in much the same way as I categorize a person as being evil. I have a very narrow definition of the term. A more accurate description of my personal feelings toward Trump is that I regard him as being despicable.

Trump has done more damage to this country than any President in modern history, but I don't think that it will have a lasting effect. I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to the resiliency of our country.

Aseahawkfan wrote:2 more fricking days.

Amen to that! If nothing else, Biden will help bring an end to the pandemic, which in my opinion, is the biggest failure Trump is responsible for and the biggest challenge Biden has in rectifying it.

RiverDog wrote:I define hate in much the same way as I categorize a person as being evil. I have a very narrow definition of the term. A more accurate description of my personal feelings toward Trump is that I regard him as being despicable.

Trump has done more damage to this country than any President in modern history, but I don't think that it will have a lasting effect. I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to the resiliency of our country.

I reached the hate point. It was real hate. When I hate someone, it is a cold, calculating hate. Trump is fortunate I was not near him as I have no tolerance for his type of behavior.

I have been trying to maintain my calm and sanity in this sea of nuts.

Bad time to be an American right now. These people are not what I think of when I think of Americans. Americans look like a group of smarmy, psychotic loons taking pleasure in the failures of each other while lashing out on social media in ways they would likely never do face to face.

Boorish, insipid, uncivil, vulgar, stupid, and ridiculous behavior all the way around. Extreme, sky is falling viewpoints that don't at all mirror reality. America is irrational and growing more so with each passing year.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I reached the hate point. It was real hate. When I hate someone, it is a cold, calculating hate. Trump is fortunate I was not near him as I have no tolerance for his type of behavior.

I have been trying to maintain my calm and sanity in this sea of nuts.

Bad time to be an American right now. These people are not what I think of when I think of Americans. Americans look like a group of smarmy, psychotic loons taking pleasure in the failures of each other while lashing out on social media in ways they would likely never do face to face.

Boorish, insipid, uncivil, vulgar, stupid, and ridiculous behavior all the way around. Extreme, sky is falling viewpoints that don't at all mirror reality. America is irrational and growing more so with each passing year.

Yea, unfortunately that pretty much describes the nation right now. I still think that the pandemic is one of the major causes for this craziness and hope that once it's over that we'll return to some sense of normalcy.

[quote="RiverDog"]
I agree with you about trying to rate evil. We all have our own definitions. Mine is a very narrow one that includes people like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer. In my book, Donald Trump fits my description of lot of things, including a narcissist, a racist, a coward, a spoiled rich kid, a moron, and may, indeed, be mentally ill. But evil is not where I would place him.


I define hate in much the same way as I categorize a person as being evil. I have a very narrow definition of the term. A more accurate description of my personal feelings toward Trump is that I regard him as being despicable.

Trump has done more damage to this country than any President in modern history, but I don't think that it will have a lasting effect. I'm pretty optimistic when it comes to the resiliency of our country.

I dont think there as much room to split hairs describing "evil" as you think. "may" be mentally ill"
Read what you wrote. He's done more damage to out country than any president in history( much of it intentional out of spite or subservience to some foreign power or business interest). Party of that is ignoring a pandemic for the last 9 months as 400K americans die not a peep about them, zero empathy. Quite the latter attacking governors, withholding aid depending on the state.. He's on tape with Woodward admitting knowing the scope of the danger of Covid then lying to the american people, denying masks, calling it a hoax.Hes screwing with biden calling for an end to a ban with UKm Brazil etc 3 days before leaving office, withholding warp speed docs, delaying the transition, basically trying to make Biden fail which means america fails,

How many people did Dahmer kill? Manson never killed anyone, his hateful words and commands convinces other to kill for him. It was a CULT....I give trump credit for half the us deaths due to his abandonment of his duties
25 acts of sexual assault, everything form groping to rape with 2 defamation cases in the kitty right now, held up only by his current status. A hater filled vindictive man who pursues his adversaries to the end of the earth to try to punish them.


Despicable=evil IMO. He's evil alright. No 2 evil persons are cookie cutters but he's EVIL.

Not sure what asea means about it being good Trump wasn't near him. Id concur. For being a bipolar usually manic man I'm pretty peaceful; but if I could ever get one on one with this evil vile piece of excrement I would disassemble him quite promptly...I loathe him