The (2nd) Impeachment of Donald Trump

[RiverDog]

It's a foregone conclusion that the impeachment trial won't be held until after Biden's inauguration on Wednesday, and it's probably for the best that the trial be delayed for at least a few weeks afterwards for a couple of reasons: The Senate has other, more pressing business to take care of, specifically confirming cabinet positions and dealing with coronavirus legislation. In addition, Biden's team doesn't want the distraction.

But more importantly, the House impeachment managers need time to procure evidence and make their case to the Senate. They need at least 17 Republican Senators to convict, assuming that all Dems/independents vote in the affirmative. Although there have been several, including McConnell, that have made statements that indicate that they feel Trump is guilty of an impeachable offense, none have committed themselves to convicting him in a trial. My guess is that if a vote were taken today, that there would be no more than 7 R Senators that would vote to convict. If a trial and vote were conducted quickly as some people would like, one could make the argument that there was a rush to judgement.

The investigation into the insurrection is months away from being complete. Some very compelling evidence has surfaced in the past several days, evidence that would be very helpful to prosecutors in a trial. There have been several suspects that they believed that they were carrying out the President's instructions, at least one of them requesting a presidential pardon. They also need to ferret out the motivation of those in the mob that stormed the capitol, if they were truly going to take hostage and/or execute Congressmen. Evidence of that nature could be critical in swaying Senators.

In my opinion, time is on the side of the prosecution. As more information comes out of the investigation, the more likely the public is to support a conviction, and with them, 17 Republican Senators.

Comments?

[NorthHawk]

Here's an interview with a long time GOP operative. In 2011 he predicted that the Republicans would descend into some type of violence.
His perspective is interesting as to how to proceed with impeachment trials as well as other things.

https://www.salon.com/2021/01/16/longti ... -not-work/

[Aseahawkfan]

Not sure 17 Republicans will turn, but who knows. Impeaching him would be nice just to prevent him from running again, though I think he's done anyway.

Trump will be 78 by 2024. I think he's lost a lot of support with the capitol riot stunt. I think he will be more strongly opposed by Republicans next time around. I think Trump was overlooked the first time. It won't happen again.

I don't think the mainstream Republicans want this clown near the party leadership any longer.

[Aseahawkfan]

Here's an interview with a long time GOP operative. In 2011 he predicted that the Republicans would descend into some type of violence.
His perspective is interesting as to how to proceed with impeachment trials as well as other things.

https://www.salon.com/2021/01/16/longti ... -not-work/

This guy's narrative is pretty ridiculous and not well-supported. The measures after World War 1 were extremely harsh, completely destroyed the Germany economy, and put them in unsustainable debt. Yet he describes the Treaty after World War 1 with Germany as soft? The theory I have heard is that the extreme nature of the World War 1 sanctions on Germany drove them into an economically unsustainable situation that lead to the rise of Hitler and Fascism because Germans felt they were being exploited by their neighbors post-war. Inflation was out of control. Germany was being bankrupted paying back the nations they invaded. It gave rise to anti-Semitism because there were many Jewish bankers and business people who seemed to be profiting off Germany's misery, while Germans suffered creating great hostility towards Jewish people.

I personally think destroying the rioters and the Republican Party including the 70 million people who voted for Trump will fail. It will cause an even greater level of division. It will turn normally law-abiding, patriotic citizens into criminals justifying their belief that the left is out to oppress them. It will destroy their lives creating a situation where they have nothing to lose whatsoever embracing extremism to an even greater degree.

It sounds like a pretty terrible idea that not only won't work, but will make the division worse. People who are put in jail have nothing to lose and will take it up to an even worse level. We've seen this time and time again in impoverished nations torn apart by violence and civil unrest. The best way to bring people together is to ensure prosperity for all and ensure they have something to invest themselves into that is productive, time consuming, and will keep them engaged in a healthy way.

[RiverDog]

Not sure 17 Republicans will turn, but who knows. Impeaching him would be nice just to prevent him from running again, though I think he's done anyway.

Trump will be 78 by 2024. I think he's lost a lot of support with the capitol riot stunt. I think he will be more strongly opposed by Republicans next time around. I think Trump was overlooked the first time. It won't happen again.

I don't think the mainstream Republicans want this clown near the party leadership any longer.

Rand Paul is saying that if the Republicans impeach Trump, they'll lose 1/3 of their voters, which could be true.

“Look, I didn’t agree with the [Capitol] fight that happened last week, and I voted against overturning the election, but at the same time, the impeachment is a wrongheaded, partisan notion, [and] if Republicans go along with it, it’ll destroy the party,” Paul said during the interview.

“A third of the Republicans will leave the party,” Paul continued. “This isn’t about, anymore, the Electoral College, this is about the future of the party, and whether you’re going to ostracize and excommunicate President Trump from the party. Well, guess what,? Millions of his fans will leave as well.”

While a majority of Americans believe Trump should be removed from office immediately, just 17 percent of Republicans support expelling Trump from the presidency, according to an Axios–Ipsos poll released on Thursday. Support for Trump among Republicans has fallen since the Capitol riots, however 60 percent believe the party should continue to follow Trump once he leaves office, an ABC News/Washington Post poll found.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing

This is not unlike the dilemma the Democratic party faced in 1964. At that time, Sen. Richard Russell told LBJ that if they approved the civil rights bill as Johnson and a coalition of Republicans and liberal Democrats were advocating, that the Democrats would lose the south for 50 years. That prediction didn't quite come true as a Democrat, Jimmy Carter, won the presidency 12 years later primarily on the back of a solid Democratic south.

[Hawktawk]

Rand Paul is nuts. I could care less. He said yesterday anyone who's had a shot or had coronavirus shold "throw away their mask" in absolute conflict with the medical community's warnings. His slavish devotion to DJT is nauseating.Back during watergate the republicans knew they were gonna get hammered but they still were willing to do the right thing and in the end so was Nixon.Those days of county over party are done.

I really dont care what these republicans do. I had a feeling when Trump started the holdout it could be bad for the party. When Jan 6 happened it definitely got really bad for the party. Our Rep Newhouse, all the people who crossed over have known since Feb of 2017 they were supporting a madman. Not a lot of sympathy.

Joe Manchin, easily the most moderate centrist Democrat in the Senate has called for removing Cruz and Hawley under the 14th amendment for insurrection. And they have the votes. i'd love this. If the party ever wants people like me to support them again they gotta start here.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... /ar-BB1cOW

[RiverDog]

Rand Paul is nuts. I could care less. He said yesterday anyone who's had a shot or had coronavirus should "throw away their mask" in absolute conflict with the medical community's warnings. His slavish devotion to DJT is nauseating. Back during Watergate the republicans knew they were gonna get hammered but they still were willing to do the right thing and in the end so was Nixon. Those days of county over party are done.

Paul may be nuts, but he's giving an accurate appraisal of the decision Republican Senators will have to make.

I really dont care what these republicans do. I had a feeling when Trump started the holdout it could be bad for the party. When Jan 6 happened it definitely got really bad for the party. Our Rep Newhouse, all the people who crossed over have known since Feb of 2017 they were supporting a madman. Not a lot of sympathy.

Well, I care what the R's do. I want to see them vote to impeach Trump and separate themselves from him. It's a first step towards getting this country on a more or less normal footing.

As far as Newhouse goes, while I may not have a lot of sympathy for him, I certainly admire his courage and conviction. By casting his vote to impeach Trump, he is putting the country ahead of his own personal safety as well of that of his family. Whether or not you agree with what he did in the past, you still have to admire his courage.

Joe Manchin, easily the most moderate centrist Democrat in the Senate has called for removing Cruz and Hawley under the 14th amendment for insurrection. And they have the votes. i'd love this. If the party ever wants people like me to support them again they gotta start here.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... /ar-BB1cOW

That's not completely accurate. Manchin is not calling for removing Cruz and Hawley, he said it's something they should consider. Here's what Manchin said: Well, they should look, absolutely (removing Cruz and Hawley via the 14th). I mean, basically, that should be a consideration.

BTW, your link is broken. Here's another one that has Manchin's interview:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ation.html

As far as 'having the votes' to remove them, that's not at all clear. I'm not even sure how many votes they need as it's not specifically called out in the 14th. It does say that they can restore their eligibility with a 2/3's vote of both Houses, so does that mean that the threshold for removal is also 2/3's?

[Hawktawk]

If the swing vote says “ they should look at it” it’s a polite way of saying let’s do it. You want to talk courage ? Courage is a Democrat in a state Trump carries by more than Newhouse district . Manchin has consistently opposed things trump did he disagreed with. Trump tried to tweet him out of office but he won . At one point Trump called him “little joe munchkin “ he fired right back as a former college football player “ not sure what he’s taking about , I’m 6’4, a big solid man “.

I wrote Newhouse an email laying out his desertion of America for political expediency but also thanking him for finally doing the right thing. I told him I’d pray for his safety . But it’s way too late when America’s locked down . My hero is Mitt Romney who said within days of the big steal lie “ I cannot imagine anything more Undemocratic or DANGEROUS . He’s facing probably more hatred than any other Republican.

[RiverDog]

If the swing vote says “ they should look at it” it’s a polite way of saying let’s do it.

OK, fine, but you said that they had the votes. In all seriousness, do you know how many votes it takes to remove an elected official via the 14th? I don't.

I wrote Newhouse an email laying out his desertion of America for political expediency but also thanking him for finally doing the right thing. I told him I’d pray for his safety . But it’s way too late when America’s locked down . My hero is Mitt Romney who said within days of the big steal lie “ I cannot imagine anything more Undemocratic or DANGEROUS . He’s facing probably more hatred than any other Republican.

I haven't written to Newhouse yet, either, but I plan to. And yes, I've always liked Mitt Romney. I voted for him back in 2012.

[NorthHawk]

This guy's narrative is pretty ridiculous and not well-supported. The measures after World War 1 were extremely harsh, completely destroyed the Germany economy, and put them in unsustainable debt. Yet he describes the Treaty after World War 1 with Germany as soft? The theory I have heard is that the extreme nature of the World War 1 sanctions on Germany drove them into an economically unsustainable situation that lead to the rise of Hitler and Fascism because Germans felt they were being exploited by their neighbors post-war. Inflation was out of control. Germany was being bankrupted paying back the nations they invaded. It gave rise to anti-Semitism because there were many Jewish bankers and business people who seemed to be profiting off Germany's misery, while Germans suffered creating great hostility towards Jewish people.

He's saying they were soft on them politically as he mentions the Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler attempted a coup d'etat. There was no real punishment for that and Germany was left alone to do politically what they wanted.
The economic conditions left them ripe for authoritarianism, but had Hitler and his henchmen been jailed for 20 years or life, history would be quite different.

Your argument that putting them in jail would give them nothing to lose is countered by his observations that any sort of weakness will be exploited by them in their quest for dominance and emboldens them.

He's in a unique position in that he operated in the GOP boiler room for years and knows how they think and operate as well as he's a political historian so I think he should be listened to seriously before dismissing his PoV.

[Aseahawkfan]

Rand Paul is saying that if the Republicans impeach Trump, they'll lose 1/3 of their voters, which could be true.

“Look, I didn’t agree with the [Capitol] fight that happened last week, and I voted against overturning the election, but at the same time, the impeachment is a wrongheaded, partisan notion, [and] if Republicans go along with it, it’ll destroy the party,” Paul said during the interview.

“A third of the Republicans will leave the party,” Paul continued. “This isn’t about, anymore, the Electoral College, this is about the future of the party, and whether you’re going to ostracize and excommunicate President Trump from the party. Well, guess what,? Millions of his fans will leave as well.”

While a majority of Americans believe Trump should be removed from office immediately, just 17 percent of Republicans support expelling Trump from the presidency, according to an Axios–Ipsos poll released on Thursday. Support for Trump among Republicans has fallen since the Capitol riots, however 60 percent believe the party should continue to follow Trump once he leaves office, an ABC News/Washington Post poll found.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing

This is not unlike the dilemma the Democratic party faced in 1964. At that time, Sen. Richard Russell told LBJ that if they approved the civil rights bill as Johnson and a coalition of Republicans and liberal Democrats were advocating, that the Democrats would lose the south for 50 years. That prediction didn't quite come true as a Democrat, Jimmy Carter, won the presidency 12 years later primarily on the back of a solid Democratic south.

I'm less concerned about impeaching Trump and more concerned about turning a bunch of people who lost their minds for a day incited by a narcissistic loon claiming election fraud using a carefully crafted marketing plan into criminals with nothing to lose during this crazy during a global pandemic.

If the people that want to impeach Trump are intelligent, they should let him leave office, let this heat die down a bit, let people get used to Biden, then burn Trump down as much as they can. Trump needs to be burned down, embarrassed, and his empire destroyed, but after his fangs have been greatly dulled after leaving office. This game needs to be played carefully. I personally hope McConnell is on board as he can greatly assist the effort to banish and wipe out Trump.

Trump needs to be taken down opportunistically, intelligently, and with extreme prejudice, him and his children save for perhaps his daughter and his youngest son.

[Aseahawkfan]

He's saying they were soft on them politically as he mentions the Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler attempted a coup d'etat. There was no real punishment for that and Germany was left alone to do politically what they wanted.
The economic conditions left them ripe for authoritarianism, but had Hitler and his henchmen been jailed for 20 years or life, history would be quite different.

Your argument that putting them in jail would give them nothing to lose is countered by his observations that any sort of weakness will be exploited by them in their quest for dominance and emboldens them.

He's in a unique position in that he operated in the GOP boiler room for years and knows how they think and operate as well as he's a political historian so I think he should be listened to seriously before dismissing his PoV.

I read his supporting ideas. They are not in line with history that I know. He's taking a single event like this Beer Hall Putsch and extrapolating that to apply to the GOP? Really? No one saw Hitler coming as much as revisionist history likes to look back and pretend they did. The conditions for the rise of the Third Reich were set up by punishing sanctions both economic and political.

Treaty of Versailles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles Give it a read, see if it was "easy on them."

Bear Hall Putsch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch. This doesn't sound like "easy on them" treatment of Hitler either. He was tried for treason, jailed, and he wrote Mein Kampf in prison. So are you advocating that we jail the leaders of this capitol riot, let them sit in jail dictating the next Mein Kampf? Or are you advocating that we execute these people? Where you at? Did you read on the Beer Hall Putsch before you believed what this guy postulated? A bunch of the people killed at this event were martyred? You want to martyr members of the GOP and capitol rioters so they can build up their resistance further?

This guy is flat out wrong. When you attempt to politically destroy groups of people such as the GOP, you are going to find that it backfires on you more often than not giving them a rallying cry rather than neutering them.

The reason we were able to pacify Japan and Germany post-World War 2 is because we rebuilt both nations and fostered excellent relations with them. The more extreme members of the Nazi Party were pursued, but they had committed insane war crimes on a level not seen historically. I think comparing The GOP to the Nazi Party is ridiculous. They are not there or even close.

We need to get America built up again, prosperous, and busy. That is the way out of this. Not engaging in further divisiveness, punishing groups of people for voting or supporting Trump, and making it seem like the Democratic Party is on some kind of pogrom against Republicans or Trump Supporters. Humans work a certain way. You want to defang them, allow them to prosper, work, and stay busy with the ability to advance and improve themselves. Nations that are prospering, busy, and productive rarely have time to revolt and/or make war unless someone tries to do something stupid to upset the well-being of the nation like excessive taxes, denial of freedom, or the like.

I'm not in agreement with this man at all. I think history clearly shows that when you attack a movement, you elevate it substantially. Same as what fueled Russia for years during the Cold War. Give people an enemy to fight and they will have the motivation to stay the course for much longer than they otherwise would had you not made an enemy and instead focused on the well being of all the people in your nation.

The only idea I agree with is that Trump himself needs to be burned down. But after he is out of office and in an intelligent way that doesn't make him a martyr. But going after the entire G.O.P. would be foolish, unsuccessful, and unnecessarily divisive. Just make Trump pay for his narcissistic lunacy and focus the efforts there. Once Trump is destroyed, those that supported him will change or wither away.

[Hawktawk]

That’s a profound well written essay . I agree with most of that . I don’t think the democrats need to do much to hurt the republicans right now. Trump is the guy who attacked and destroyed them . Wh 2/3 believe in made up stories and 1/3 don’t what kind of chance do you have at the polls? The party is a mess . As an example I responded to an op Ed on Facebook written by Bill Bryant , former Gubernatorial candidate. He was mostly positive and the subject was the transfer of power . He pointed out all the examples in both parties of people setting aside their differences for the good of America . I responded that it was beautifully written , that it separated him from the majority of his party . I was immediately attacked by several Trumpanzees including a guy who wrote that I should suck his .... it’s amazing how tough they are on social media . I’d say 2/3 of the responses to a moderate Republican high quality candidate were about the same as they were to me. If 2/3 of the party have this attitude they will never win another fair election. This is beyond a political discussion at this point

[Aseahawkfan]

That’s a profound well written essay . I agree with most of that . I don’t think the democrats need to do much to hurt the republicans right now. Trump is the guy who attacked and destroyed them . Wh 2/3 believe in made up stories and 1/3 don’t what kind of chance do you have at the polls? The party is a mess . As an example I responded to an op Ed on Facebook written by Bill Bryant , former Gubernatorial candidate. He was mostly positive and the subject was the transfer of power . He pointed out all the examples in both parties of people setting aside their differences for the good of America . I responded that it was beautifully written , that it separated him from the majority of his party . I was immediately attacked by several Trumpanzees including a guy who wrote that I should suck his .... it’s amazing how tough they are on social media . I’d say 2/3 of the responses to a moderate Republican high quality candidate were about the same as they were to me. If 2/3 of the party have this attitude they will never win another fair election. This is beyond a political discussion at this point

I personally hate social media and don't use it. I would not miss if it disappeared. Twitter is one of the worst instruments for delivering dumbed down ideas that can't exceed the twitter word capacity.

[Hawktawk]

I stay on FB for birthdays, sharing cool vacations,music mine and others, hot cars and boats and funny stuff.Theres a smoking crater in my friends list of about 100 people who can't stop the trump shares, the stop the steal fantasies. And if they throw it in my face I'm coming back at em as you know.

I follow Bill Bryant who is a class republican that believes in science and protecting our natural resources. I've blocked all news sites. I'm on no other social media other than this board.

Twitter has created a monster. Like everything else trump at the beginning of his term 17% felt it was OK for him to be tweeting nonsense all the time. At the end he had 80 Million followers retweeting his garbage and lies.Only after an insurrection did they feel concerned enough to shut of the megaphone of lies.

Speaking of far right nazi sympathising social media look who gave Parler a hand up https://news.trust.org/item/20210118224444-0t0va. I've read reports that they as well as China and other state actors such as Iran may have secretly funded theses protests of stop the steal. This despicable chaotic president who could give a F#k about the country hes *led* for 4 years has opened the door to a level of chaos and misinformation unheard of in this country in my lifetime. Of everything he's done to ruin america this latest stunt refusing to concede and whipping 50 million supporters into a delusional frenzy has been the worst and most destructive.Im not sure how we can rehabilitate minds this utterly poisoned.

[NorthHawk]

I read his supporting ideas. They are not in line with history that I know. He's taking a single event like this Beer Hall Putsch and extrapolating that to apply to the GOP? Really? No one saw Hitler coming as much as revisionist history likes to look back and pretend they did. The conditions for the rise of the Third Reich were set up by punishing sanctions both economic and political.

Treaty of Versailles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles Give it a read, see if it was "easy on them."

Bear Hall Putsch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch. This doesn't sound like "easy on them" treatment of Hitler either. He was tried for treason, jailed, and he wrote Mein Kampf in prison. So are you advocating that we jail the leaders of this capitol riot, let them sit in jail dictating the next Mein Kampf? Or are you advocating that we execute these people? Where you at? Did you read on the Beer Hall Putsch before you believed what this guy postulated? A bunch of the people killed at this event were martyred? You want to martyr members of the GOP and capitol rioters so they can build up their resistance further?

This guy is flat out wrong. When you attempt to politically destroy groups of people such as the GOP, you are going to find that it backfires on you more often than not giving them a rallying cry rather than neutering them.

The reason we were able to pacify Japan and Germany post-World War 2 is because we rebuilt both nations and fostered excellent relations with them. The more extreme members of the Nazi Party were pursued, but they had committed insane war crimes on a level not seen historically. I think comparing The GOP to the Nazi Party is ridiculous. They are not there or even close.

We need to get America built up again, prosperous, and busy. That is the way out of this. Not engaging in further divisiveness, punishing groups of people for voting or supporting Trump, and making it seem like the Democratic Party is on some kind of pogrom against Republicans or Trump Supporters. Humans work a certain way. You want to defang them, allow them to prosper, work, and stay busy with the ability to advance and improve themselves. Nations that are prospering, busy, and productive rarely have time to revolt and/or make war unless someone tries to do something stupid to upset the well-being of the nation like excessive taxes, denial of freedom, or the like.

I'm not in agreement with this man at all. I think history clearly shows that when you attack a movement, you elevate it substantially. Same as what fueled Russia for years during the Cold War. Give people an enemy to fight and they will have the motivation to stay the course for much longer than they otherwise would had you not made an enemy and instead focused on the well being of all the people in your nation.

The only idea I agree with is that Trump himself needs to be burned down. But after he is out of office and in an intelligent way that doesn't make him a martyr. But going after the entire G.O.P. would be foolish, unsuccessful, and unnecessarily divisive. Just make Trump pay for his narcissistic lunacy and focus the efforts there. Once Trump is destroyed, those that supported him will change or wither away.

There's no question the Treaty of Versailles was a punishing document, but he's talking about the political penalties for an attempted coup d'etat. In most of the world, treason is still considered either a Capital Offense meaning up to death but usually a long term prison sentence. Hitler was given 1 year in prison in a private cell with a writing desk and the freedom to have guests. Here he wrote his manifesto and plotted his next political moves while serving his time. That's hardly harsh punishment and should he have been given 20 years, how different would the world be today? Japan was pacified at the end of the war when Hirohito told the country it was over and they had lost. There was a political negotiation, but that was decided before the restructure of that economy was implemented.

The author is right, though and we know that any sign of weakness will be pounced on by the extremists as proof they are right and they will continue to push for more and get more extreme. And he's talking about the extreme members that
are driving today's discord, not about the whole GOP and nobody is comparing them to the German Nazi party. Right now the far right has too much influence, but I read it that his contention is to go after those on the far right aggressively. We haven't done that and they are getting bolder and bolder all the time.

[Aseahawkfan]

There's no question the Treaty of Versailles was a punishing document, but he's talking about the political penalties for an attempted coup d'etat. In most of the world, treason is still considered either a Capital Offense meaning up to death but usually a long term prison sentence. Hitler was given 1 year in prison in a private cell with a writing desk and the freedom to have guests. Here he wrote his manifesto and plotted his next political moves while serving his time. That's hardly harsh punishment and should he have been given 20 years, how different would the world be today? Japan was pacified at the end of the war when Hirohito told the country it was over and they had lost. There was a political negotiation, but that was decided before the restructure of that economy was implemented.

The author is right, though and we know that any sign of weakness will be pounced on by the extremists as proof they are right and they will continue to push for more and get more extreme. And he's talking about the extreme members that
are driving today's discord, not about the whole GOP and nobody is comparing them to the German Nazi party. Right now the far right has too much influence, but I read it that his contention is to go after those on the far right aggressively. We haven't done that and they are getting bolder and bolder all the time.

Hitler was given 5 years, but served only 9 months. I'm certain this did not happen because they wanted to go "easy on him." He must have already wielded enormous power they had to deal that had they killed him, it would have likely set off a terrible series of events right then. Seeing Hitler in retrospect is popular, but not practical.

Who are these extreme members you expect to pounce on? He named no one and implied the entire Republican Party has devolved into a Nazi-like Party or the Southern Confederacy. And yes this guy is implying the G.O.P. is the Nazi Party. He basically used a Hitler example to compare January 6th to Hitler's attempted coup. That most definitely is an attempt to paint the G.O.P. as a Nazi-like Party. There are other Democrats doing exactly this. Why are you pretending that is not what he did when those are the direct references he uses for comparison?

The far right has been building for years. The government attempted to destroy them after the Oklahoma City bombing. You are Canadian? So it is understandable you don't know our history. The F.B.I. infiltrated and ripped apart the far right militias back in the 90s. They just rebuilt. There is no central figure on the right to attack. The far right is not a group of people unified under a common cause, but a mixed group banding together for different reasons. Some are white supremacists as the news claims. Some are pro-Western civilization as they call it. Some are gun rights advocates. Some are Constitutionalists. Some are pro-American and believe the left is destroying America. Some are standing up for their religion. So how do you attack a group with a huge amount of variation and reasons for their views? Who are their direct leaders you want to execute?

Not sure why you're dancing now, but the implication is you think these people are comparable to a Hitler-led coup and you think that the trial for sedition insufficient and what? These people should be jailed for life? Executed? These are the comparisons used in the article. What does "go easy" mean?

[I-5]

Back to the OP, as each day passes, I get the feeling some GOP senators are feeling more free to speak their mind for whatever reasons they may have, and the probably of having enough for a supermajority to convict Trump seems pretty high - I’d put it above 50%. It all starts with McConnell, and if he votes to convict, then I think the dam will break. Said Mitch:

"The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the President and other powerful people. And they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the federal government which they did not like. But we pressed on."

I think the writing is on the wall, and won’t be surprised if he’s convicted. As for the second part, whether he could be banned from pursuing future office, I think it’s less likely but might not even need to be necessary. I see Trump dumping the GOP by tomorrow anyway. He’s no republican, not by a long shot.

[RiverDog]

Back to the OP, as each day passes, I get the feeling some GOP senators are feeling more free to speak their mind for whatever reasons they may have, and the probably of having enough for a supermajority to convict Trump seems pretty high - I’d put it above 50%. It all starts with McConnell, and if he votes to convict, then I think the dam will break. Said Mitch:

"The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the President and other powerful people. And they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the federal government which they did not like. But we pressed on."

I think the writing is on the wall, and won’t be surprised if he’s convicted. As for the second part, whether he could be banned from pursuing future office, I think it’s less likely but might not even need to be necessary. I see Trump dumping the GOP by tomorrow anyway. He’s no republican, not by a long shot.

I agree. There is no need to rush the impeachment trial. Time is on the side of the prosecution. They need to wait until they feel that they have enough votes.

There is a legitimate argument in that impeachment will continue to divide the country, but at this point, I think it needs to proceed. The good thing about impeachment is that there is an end. Once there's a verdict, that's it. No appeals. It's not like a criminal prosecution that can go on for years. I also feel that there needs to be a historical marker laid down that counterbalances the insurgency as well as a final slamming of the door on the Trump presidency.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree. There is no need to rush the impeachment trial. Time is on the side of the prosecution. They need to wait until they feel that they have enough votes.

There is a legitimate argument in that impeachment will continue to divide the country, but at this point, I think it needs to proceed. The good thing about impeachment is that there is an end. Once there's a verdict, that's it. No appeals. It's not like a criminal prosecution that can go on for years. I also feel that there needs to be a historical marker laid down that counterbalances the insurgency as well as a final slamming of the door on the Trump presidency.

Best to let the heat die down first. Then go in hard.

[Hawktawk]

I saw Mitch had downloaded . It’s easy to say now turkey jowels. A year ago you were his personal attorney . History will be extremely unkind to Trump but also these ass kissing synchophants who kept playing with fire appeasing a mentally ill man for political expediency. This genie will never be put back in the bottle .

[RiverDog]

Trump's impeachment trial has been delayed until Feb. 9th, a good move IMO. There is more pressing business for the Senate to attend to, such as the coronavirus response and cabinet appointment confirmations. Now that the Chief Moron has exited, he's yesterday's news. Besides, time is on the side of the prosecution. So if you are of the mindset that wants to see him impeached, it's better to wait a couple of weeks for the momentum to build than rush it through haphazardly and have it fail.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump's impeachment trial has been delayed until Feb. 9th, a good move IMO. There is more pressing business for the Senate to attend to, such as the coronavirus response and cabinet appointment confirmations. Now that the Chief Moron has exited, he's yesterday's news. Besides, time is on the side of the prosecution. So if you are of the mindset that wants to see him impeached, it's better to wait a couple of weeks for the momentum to build than rush it through haphazardly and have it fail.

I'm not worried about the impeachment. If this lockdown doesn't end soon, this country is going to explode. Period. Americans can't even take another year of this garbage. There needs to be an end game on this lockdown crap, in every state and all over America. This crap has reached the end of the road point as to what people are going to tolerate as a whole. All it will take is one more explosive incident to push the madness to an even higher level.

Right now Jay Inslee has no plan. He just keeps extending his lockdown order like people can live like this forever. It's getting ridiculous.

[RiverDog]

Trump's impeachment trial has been delayed until Feb. 9th, a good move IMO. There is more pressing business for the Senate to attend to, such as the coronavirus response and cabinet appointment confirmations. Now that the Chief Moron has exited, he's yesterday's news. Besides, time is on the side of the prosecution. So if you are of the mindset that wants to see him impeached, it's better to wait a couple of weeks for the momentum to build than rush it through haphazardly and have it fail.

I'm not worried about the impeachment. If this lockdown doesn't end soon, this country is going to explode. Period. Americans can't even take another year of this garbage. There needs to be an end game on this lockdown crap, in every state and all over America. This crap has reached the end of the road point as to what people are going to tolerate as a whole. All it will take is one more explosive incident to push the madness to an even higher level.

I'm not 'worried' about it, either. I want to see Trump convicted but it's not going to be the end of the world if he isn't. Like you, I'm much more worried about ending the pandemic and the lockdowns, one of the reasons why I'm glad that they've tabled the impeachment trial for a couple of weeks.

Right now Jay Inslee has no plan. He just keeps extending his lockdown order like people can live like this forever. It's getting ridiculous.

My wife and I got our vaccination yesterday, 5 days after Inslee expanded those eligible to include 65-69 year olds where we fall. We were commenting that even though the previous admin. had recommended 65+, had Biden not given the same recommendation, Inslee would not have followed a Republican's advice.

Inslee also told hospitals and clinics to distribute 95% of their vaccines within a week, something I've been clamoring about for weeks, and suddenly, all these clinics are popping up and people are getting poked. Funny how that works.

Those on this side of the state are getting pretty fed up. I'm even beginning to see the logic in at least loosening the grip on some of these business closures.

[Aseahawkfan]

My wife and I got our vaccination yesterday, 5 days after Inslee expanded those eligible to include 65-69 year olds where we fall. We were commenting that even though the previous admin. had recommended 65+, had Biden not given the same recommendation, Inslee would not have followed a Republican's advice.

Inslee also told hospitals and clinics to distribute 95% of their vaccines within a week, something I've been clamoring about for weeks, and suddenly, all these clinics are popping up and people are getting poked. Funny how that works.

Those on this side of the state are getting pretty fed up. I'm even beginning to see the logic in at least loosening the grip on some of these business closures.

This whole environment is stifling. You don't know what you can and can't do outside. If your neighbors will report you for walking alone outside with no mask to get some fresh air. What is open and what isn't. On top of worrying the virus itself and if you're one of the unlucky ones with the right combination of factors to end up on a ventilator dying alone. I imagine the flu pandemic of 1918 was worse, but this is pretty bad for modern times. Never seen such a limitation on personal freedoms in my lifetime. I can see why a group of people raised on the idea of liberty would be going stir crazy having the government mandate how to live their lives up to and including when they can go to the doctor or if their business can stay open are going nutso. It feels like we live in a totalitarian state right now no matter how nice Jay Inslee sounds on the TV.

Imagine if the government had this level of control over your life all the time. I'm sitting there imagining what life would be like in a world where the government exerted this level of control over so much of your daily life. I'd lose my fricking mind.

I'm trying to stay somewhat sane by focusing on the science and imagining the other end of this. This kind of government control is exactly what Americans normally would revolt against if not for the public health crisis. It's a terrible, oppressive feeling to live like this. If there is no end in sight sometime soon, not sure how long we can all hold out living like this.

[RiverDog]

This whole environment is stifling. You don't know what you can and can't do outside. If your neighbors will report you for walking alone outside with no mask to get some fresh air. What is open and what isn't. On top of worrying the virus itself and if you're one of the unlucky ones with the right combination of factors to end up on a ventilator dying alone. I imagine the flu pandemic of 1918 was worse, but this is pretty bad for modern times. Never seen such a limitation on personal freedoms in my lifetime. I can see why a group of people raised on the idea of liberty would be going stir crazy having the government mandate how to live their lives up to and including when they can go to the doctor or if their business can stay open are going nutso. It feels like we live in a totalitarian state right now no matter how nice Jay Inslee sounds on the TV.

Imagine if the government had this level of control over your life all the time. I'm sitting there imagining what life would be like in a world where the government exerted this level of control over so much of your daily life. I'd lose my fricking mind.

I'm trying to stay somewhat sane by focusing on the science and imagining the other end of this. This kind of government control is exactly what Americans normally would revolt against if not for the public health crisis. It's a terrible, oppressive feeling to live like this. If there is no end in sight sometime soon, not sure how long we can all hold out living like this.

Sometimes a totalitarian state is a necessary evil. My friend who is working in Argentina tells me that he's not even allowed to leave his apartment unless he has some sort of permission. And here we are in America complaining about a silly mask or not being able to go into our favorite bar. We've been spoiled by our freedom and independence to such a point that it overrides our common sense.

Hopefully people willingly get this vaccine and we can get back to normal by this summer. I'm as anxious as the next guy to see the lockdowns end. Yesterday after we received our 1st vaccine, my wife was happier than I've seen her in a long time.

[NorthHawk]

It's why they are trying to get as many people vaccinated as possible. The return to normalcy is the most important thing as it will springboard the economic recovery as well. It's also why the previous
administration was on such a wrong track in not going all in on vaccinating the population. I don't find wearing a mask is such a hardship, though. It's part of our responsibilities as a decent citizen and
human being to not infect others (in the event we unknowingly have contracted the virus). It's a small price to pay to possibly protect others including friends and family and others to protect us.
The frustrating part is staying home as much as possible and it will make me more appreciative of being able to wander aimlessly in markets or stores when it's over.

[RiverDog]

It's why they are trying to get as many people vaccinated as possible. The return to normalcy is the most important thing as it will springboard the economic recovery as well. It's also why the previous administration was on such a wrong track in not going all in on vaccinating the population. I don't find wearing a mask is such a hardship, though. It's part of our responsibilities as a decent citizen and human being to not infect others (in the event we unknowingly have contracted the virus). It's a small price to pay to possibly protect others including friends and family and others to protect us.

The frustrating part is staying home as much as possible and it will make me more appreciative of being able to wander aimlessly in markets or stores when it's over.

Agree 100%. I've been clamoring about opening up vaccinations to as many people as feasible. There's no maximum on the 2nd shot so it doesn't make sense to be holding back doses. Here in WA, as soon as they recognized that reality clinics started popping up all over the place. The problem they have now is there's all sorts of complaints from different groups of people about their not being eligible. There's teachers in Bellevue that are on strike, refusing to go back to work and all upset because the state isn't prioritizing them for the vaccine. Same with grocery workers. That's why I said that they should just go by age and forget about all these crazy, nonsensical, unprovable priority groups like over 50 and in a multigenerational household. Start with 80+ and work their way younger. It's a lot easier to justify.

[NorthHawk]

Some of the problems with requiring a 2nd dose is that if you inoculate 100,000 people in one week, 28 days later you have to inoculate those same 100,000 people plus the extra 100,000 people that haven't yet had any vaccinations. It's almost like
a snowball and the coordination could be difficult with some that have difficulty getting to vaccination areas, others forgetting, people losing their notice that they have had their 1st shot, have moved out of State or city, etc. If it's not done right
it could turn into a real mess.

[RiverDog]

Some of the problems with requiring a 2nd dose is that if you inoculate 100,000 people in one week, 28 days later you have to inoculate those same 100,000 people plus the extra 100,000 people that haven't yet had any vaccinations. It's almost like a snowball and the coordination could be difficult with some that have difficulty getting to vaccination areas, others forgetting, people losing their notice that they have had their 1st shot, have moved out of State or city, etc. If it's not done right it could turn into a real mess.

No, you don't "have" to inoculate the 100K that received the first dose in 28 days. The only requirement is that the 2nd dose not be administered any earlier than 28 days (the dr. at the clinic told us 24 days). There is no maximum time by which you have to get the second dose. You just won't be up to maximum immunity, rather you'll be at roughly 60%, which is about the same efficacy as a flu shot. I'd rather have 200K be at 60% immunity vs. 100K at 95%. It will be more effective in stopping the spread.

Yesterday when we received our shot, I asked whether or not we got any kind of scheduling priority for the 2nd shot, and they said no, that it would make it too complicated and slow things down. It's going to be up to the individual to schedule themselves just as if they were getting their first shot. Both doses are exactly the same strength. They just told us to make sure the 2nd dose was the Moderna vaccine but even that isn't critical.

Once the Johnson & Johnson vaccine rolls out sometime this March, it will make things much less complicated as it's a one dose vaccine and can be kept in a household refrigerator. They claim that they are on track to deliver the 100 million doses they committed to the US government by this summer.

I've been very critical of the vaccine roll out, but our experience yesterday couldn't have been better. We were in and out in less than 25 minutes, which included the 15 minute observation period. It was this clinic's first mass vaccination, and boy, did they nail it!

[NorthHawk]

The thinking is that in order to end the pandemic quickly to get as many needles into arms as possible and depend on a constant or increasing supply of vaccine for people to get their 2nd shot on time, a proposal I'm in favor of. As far as extending the time between doses, that suggestion has been strongly discouraged by the manufacturers and experts in the field like Fauci.

That was your comment in another thread and I heard just last night that Pfizer doesn't recommend the 2nd shot past 21 days as they have no data to show if it's effectiveness is limited or nullified.
It seems to me that they are concerned that the 94 -95% efficacy might be in doubt and from a company's PoV, if it drops precipitously after that date, it would tarnish their image and the value of that vaccine.
Basically we're heading into the unknown by extending the time for the 2nd dose as it hasn't been studied.

[RiverDog]

That was your comment in another thread and I heard just last night that Pfizer doesn't recommend the 2nd shot past 21 days as they have no data to show if it's effectiveness is limited or nullified. It seems to me that they are concerned that the 94 -95% efficacy might be in doubt and from a company's PoV, if it drops precipitously after that date, it would tarnish their image and the value of that vaccine. Basically we're heading into the unknown by extending the time for the 2nd dose as it hasn't been studied.

Of course, the manufacturer is always going to stick by the schedule that they followed in their trials and although the UK and France are talking about stretching out the time between doses, no one in this country is recommending intentionally stretching it out. But the medical people I've heard speak on the subject have all said that there shouldn't be a problem in delaying the second shot for several weeks if a person can't get the 2nd shot on the schedule, that the emphasis should be getting as many people vaccinated as possible regardless of which shot in the series that they are receiving. That's why the CDC has instructed states not to hold back doses.

Jan. 22, 2021 -- The CDC has updated its guidance on how long people can wait between the first and second doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines.

If the second dose can’t be scheduled in the recommended time frame -- 21 days after the first dose for Pfizer and 28 days for Moderna -- people can wait up to 6 weeks, the CDC said in an update published Thursday.

“The second dose should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible,” the CDC said. “However, if it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval, the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines may be scheduled for administration up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose.”

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19 ... be-6-weeks

Like Biden said, we have to treat this as a wartime situation. We have to get ahead of this pandemic and stop the spread, and the best way to do that is to get as many needles into arms as possible. The supply of vaccine is going to increase in the coming months and a calculated risk on the 2nd shot is preferable to slowing down vaccinations to make sure the 2nd shot is given on the exact date its due. That's why my wife and I were not allowed to make an appointment or get a priority for the 2nd shot after we received our first last Friday.

One of the things I liked about the clinic where we got our shot is that we personally spoke with a doctor. He said that it was much more important not to get the 2nd dose too soon, no earlier than 24 days, but that it was OK if we were a couple weeks late.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sometimes a totalitarian state is a necessary evil. My friend who is working in Argentina tells me that he's not even allowed to leave his apartment unless he has some sort of permission. And here we are in America complaining about a silly mask or not being able to go into our favorite bar. We've been spoiled by our freedom and independence to such a point that it overrides our common sense.

Hopefully people willingly get this vaccine and we can get back to normal by this summer. I'm as anxious as the next guy to see the lockdowns end. Yesterday after we received our 1st vaccine, my wife was happier than I've seen her in a long time.

I don't agree with this at all. A totalitarian state with no end is a completely totalitarian state. There has to be some end in site. No one should be thinking a totalitarian state is in anyway ok.

I don't want to hear about Argentina. They are not comparable to us.

No one is spoiled by freedom. It should be the expectation of any human to be free. If this continues too long, I will certainly join a revolt against this at some point. I am not like you. I would never tolerate a real totalitarian state if I believed this what was the government was attempting to do. I would rather risk death from the virus than accept this environment indefinitely. I would be willing to fight against the government to end it.

So it has to end at some point or more and more people will reach their point of not tolerating any longer. People who casually think they can do this indefinitely are ridiculous. This is a terrible life.

[RiverDog]

I don't agree with this at all. A totalitarian state with no end is a completely totalitarian state. There has to be some end in site. No one should be thinking a totalitarian state is in anyway ok.

I don't think we're at that point in this crisis, but it is conceivable that we could have some type of national catastrophe that requires that marshal law be instituted and Constitutional rights suspended. For example, if the volcano under Yellowstone erupted. Although it was the wrong thing to do, we used a national emergency as an a justification when we moved Japanese Americans to internment camps in WW2.

I don't want to hear about Argentina. They are not comparable to us.

I was not comparing them to us. I was simply using it as an illustration as to how other totalitarian societies are handling the crisis.

No one is spoiled by freedom. It should be the expectation of any human to be free. If this continues too long, I will certainly join a revolt against this at some point. I am not like you. I would never tolerate a real totalitarian state if I believed this what was the government was attempting to do. I would rather risk death from the virus than accept this environment indefinitely. I would be willing to fight against the government to end it.

Those folks that stormed the Capitol were sure spoiled by their freedom. The problem is that too people in this country assume that freedom means free in every sense of the word, which is why we're having such a problem getting people to wear masks. Your freedom does not include the freedom to make someone else sick.

So it has to end at some point or more and more people will reach their point of not tolerating any longer. People who casually think they can do this indefinitely are ridiculous. This is a terrible life.

I am beginning to lean that way myself. I don't think our state government is working hard enough to help some of these businesses open back up. There's data to suggest that most of the infections are occurring in private gatherings, so it would make sense to allow people to gather in some public locations where they can be made to wear masks and socially distance. At least you have some degree of control over their behavior whereas in private homes you don't.

[Aseahawkfan]

Those folks that stormed the Capitol were sure spoiled by their freedom. The problem is that too people in this country assume that freedom means free in every sense of the word, which is why we're having such a problem getting people to wear masks. Your freedom does not include the freedom to make someone else sick.

Look, I know you weren't seriously advocating for a real totalitarian state. I know the government isn't trying to turn us into a totalitarian state. They're doing the best they can in a hard situation with available information. I'm still holding the line for now. The longer this goes on, the more wearing it becomes.

Those people were not spoiled by their freedom in my opinion anymore than the BLM protesters. They were driven to an action by a lying president into believing an election had been stolen. There's way too many reasons to discuss as to why so many Americans would allow themselves to be pushed in such a direction. These people truly believed they had to act to prevent what they considered a massive act of election fraud by the Democrats. I believe there is real hatred for the Democrats on the right. I don't know if it will get any better considering any trust between these two sides seems pretty much gone and it's starting to get more divisive.

And I'm more concerned with the stay at home orders and business destruction as well as attempts to tell people not to see their loved ones. How long do people live in isolation away from the people that make life worth living? How long do they continue to hunker down hoping for a government handout to sustain them while their business and lives are destroyed? How long does rent and mortgage deferral protect them from losing their place to live?

I am beginning to lean that way myself. I don't think our state government is working hard enough to help some of these businesses open back up. There's data to suggest that most of the infections are occurring in private gatherings, so it would make sense to allow people to gather in some public locations where they can be made to wear masks and socially distance. At least you have some degree of control over their behavior whereas in private homes you don't.

I hope the vaccine works and we can get some normalcy. I am reading on Texas and Florida. Both states have kept more open and made more sensible decisions and have a death rate about the same as California and New York.

Even Andrew Cuomo is starting to realize his city may not ever be open again if they don't reopen soon. I know Seattle is a ghost town. Specialties gone. So many restaurants near me gone or barely hanging on. Buildings closed. Big tech and companies moving their operations out of the city with no interest in returning. I think cities will be more decimated than many Americans realize even after we re-open.

[RiverDog]

Those people were not spoiled by their freedom in my opinion anymore than the BLM protesters.

IMO both groups were. What other country would have allowed what happened in those two situations to happen? What other industrialized country would have it even have taken place?

They were driven to an action by a lying president into believing an election had been stolen. There's way too many reasons to discuss as to why so many Americans would allow themselves to be pushed in such a direction. These people truly believed they had to act to prevent what they considered a massive act of election fraud by the Democrats. I believe there is real hatred for the Democrats on the right. I don't know if it will get any better considering any trust between these two sides seems pretty much gone and it's starting to get more divisive.

All true. But I still say that they were spoiled in the sense that we enjoy freedoms that no other country in the world enjoys, and it was due to those freedoms that allowed both of those groups to engage in the activities that they did.

I am beginning to lean that way myself. I don't think our state government is working hard enough to help some of these businesses open back up. There's data to suggest that most of the infections are occurring in private gatherings, so it would make sense to allow people to gather in some public locations where they can be made to wear masks and socially distance. At least you have some degree of control over their behavior whereas in private homes you don't.

I hope the vaccine works and we can get some normalcy. I am reading on Texas and Florida. Both states have kept more open and made more sensible decisions and have a death rate about the same as California and New York.

Even Andrew Cuomo is starting to realize his city may not ever be open again if they don't reopen soon. I know Seattle is a ghost town. Specialties gone. So many restaurants near me gone or barely hanging on. Buildings closed. Big tech and companies moving their operations out of the city with no interest in returning. I think cities will be more decimated than many Americans realize even after we re-open.

The vaccine works. So long as we can get enough people to take it, we'll defeat the pandemic and end the shutdowns. We still have several tough months ahead, but once we get other vaccines on the market and fill the pipeline with product, we'll get back to normal. Neither the stock market or housing market has fallen, a strong indication that the economy will bounce back.

[Aseahawkfan]

IMO both groups were. What other country would have allowed what happened in those two situations to happen? What other industrialized country would have it even have taken place?

It happened all over the world. Weren't you watching the news? They were pulling down statues and protesting in Great Britain, France, and several other places during the BLM protests.

They didn't attack the capitol though in those places as far as I know. They didn't have a lying leader telling them the election was stolen from them or they might have done the same. The social unrest certainly wasn't isolated to here.

All true. But I still say that they were spoiled in the sense that we enjoy freedoms that no other country in the world enjoys, and it was due to those freedoms that allowed both of those groups to engage in the activities that they did.

Plenty of Western nations enjoy freedoms as great as our own if not more at this point. America is no longer the freest nation on earth by a good measure. We are a heavily taxed, regulated, stratified, and divided nation at this point. Hardly the top location to move to other than to make money. It's Americans that aren't keeping up with how much the rest of the world has improved. We still walk around believing we're the greatest nation on earth with all the jingoistic talk without really even bothering to learn how other nations live.

The vaccine works. So long as we can get enough people to take it, we'll defeat the pandemic and end the shutdowns. We still have several tough months ahead, but once we get other vaccines on the market and fill the pipeline with product, we'll get back to normal. Neither the stock market or housing market has fallen, a strong indication that the economy will bounce back.

Stock market is fueled by stimulus and debt at this point. Valuations are insane right now. The money printing is crazy.

Housing market will adjust once the rent and mortgage deferrals lift and people can be evicted again. They had a huge supply shortage due to a combination of factors from shutting down the home building market to the moratorium on evictions and mortgage and rent deferrals. We'll see what happens when these are lifted and the stimulus stops.

Right now we're in a super whacky economy that no one really knows what will happen when the money printing stops or people have to pay debt or inflation kicks in. We will see.

[RiverDog]

Back to the OP.

The Democrats announced that rather than the Chief Justice of SCOTUS, that fellow Dem Senator Patrick Leahy will preside over Trump's impeachment trial.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/25/us/p ... a099143f1e

This is a really bad move. Although the judge in an impeachment trial is mostly ceremonial, the graphics are horrible. How could any politician receive a fair trial if it is officiated by political opponent from the opposite party?

There's been a lot of push back amongst Republicans, and I am getting the sense that this impeachment trial is slipping away, that they won't get near enough votes to convict, and this latest move seems certain to doom any chance they might have had.

[Aseahawkfan]

Back to the OP.

The Democrats announced that rather than the Chief Justice of SCOTUS, that fellow Dem Senator Patrick Leahy will preside over Trump's impeachment trial.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/25/us/p ... a099143f1e

This is a really bad move. Although the judge in an impeachment trial is mostly ceremonial, the graphics are horrible. How could any politician receive a fair trial if it is officiated by political opponent from the opposite party?

There's been a lot of push back amongst Republicans, and I am getting the sense that this impeachment trial is slipping away, that they won't get near enough votes to convict, and this latest move seems certain to doom any chance they might have had.

So Trump might come back in 2024? With the coronavirus clear, an 82 year old Biden to go against, and the ability to go to work at his rallies? I hope Trump starts to slow down. I don't know how a 74 year old has that much energy. He must take TRT or something. If they don't impeach this guy, he's gonna be attacking Biden, riling up his base, and going after Biden like crazy in preparation for another run. Trump is highly vindictive, doesn't like to give up, and will take a fight to the next level if he is able to. If they can't impeach Trump, he's going to feel empowered. He'll use these other lawsuits against him to fuel the idea the Democrats are out to get him and they are. He'll start hammering on the Democrats from now until 2024. Sheesh. A failure to impeach could bring this monster back.

Don't feed me any worthless polls any more RD. Trump has clearly proven the polls don't mean jack crap when it comes voting time. Popularity polls are useless pablum for people to take false comfort in. Trump has a huge following willing to go strong to help him. If he doesn't have the coronavirus to contend with, he's even more dangerous at his rallies.

Now you're telling me impeachment is unlikely. They better get some goods on him with the lawsuits or the Trump monster may be back in 2024.

[RiverDog]

So Trump might come back in 2024? With the coronavirus clear, an 82 year old Biden to go against, and the ability to go to work at his rallies? I hope Trump starts to slow down. I don't know how a 74 year old has that much energy. He must take TRT or something. If they don't impeach this guy, he's gonna be attacking Biden, riling up his base, and going after Biden like crazy in preparation for another run. Trump is highly vindictive, doesn't like to give up, and will take a fight to the next level if he is able to. If they can't impeach Trump, he's going to feel empowered. He'll use these other lawsuits against him to fuel the idea the Democrats are out to get him and they are. He'll start hammering on the Democrats from now until 2024. Sheesh. A failure to impeach could bring this monster back.

At this point, I don't think that Trump is coming back. He's starting his own party, and it will be a disaster, guarantee the Dems of the Presidency in 2024 as it will split the conservative vote.

I've been going back and forth between impeaching/convicting him or not. If they can't get him, it's going to do more harm than good, and at this point, they aren't getting him.

Don't feed me any worthless polls any more RD. Trump has clearly proven the polls don't mean jack crap when it comes voting time. Popularity polls are useless pablum for people to take false comfort in. Trump has a huge following willing to go strong to help him. If he doesn't have the coronavirus to contend with, he's even more dangerous at his rallies.

Now you're telling me impeachment is unlikely. They better get some goods on him with the lawsuits or the Trump monster may be back in 2024.

I still believe in the science of polling. They were very accurate in other races. Trump was an anomaly. There seems to have been a lot of 'silent' Trump voters, people that were embarrassed to admit that they supported Trump until they had a ballot in front of them.

Convicting Trump of a felony won't prevent him from running. He could be incarcerated and run his campaign from his prison cell if he chose to do so. A conviction in an impeachment trial would be the only thing that would prevent him from holding public office again.