Capitol Riot Investigation

[Aseahawkfan]

There have been significant developments reported over the last few days . The revelation that Jan 6 organizers were using untraceable burner phones to communicate with trumps team in the days leading up
To the riot . Also reported that when it was clear Mike Pence wasn’t going to break the law Trump was frantically calling his allies including his attorneys desperate to find some way to stop the certification . The consensus was to pressure lawmakers into delaying the vote .
The most significant development by far is news that then Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has begun cooperating with the investigation. He had been refusing based on trumps claim of executive privilege . Trump is sueing to block release of all notes but my guess is the chief of staff is the mother lode . This was a flat out attempted coup. Trump should be in prison for a long time .

I'll believe it when Trump actually suffers some jail time or serious criminal charges. So far it's been all bark by the anti-Trump crowd, no bite time and time again. Just stories of what might happen with nothing actually happening.

[Hawktawk]

I'll believe it when Trump actually suffers some jail time or serious criminal charges. So far it's been all bark by the anti-Trump crowd, no bite time and time again. Just stories of what might happen with nothing actually happening.

"anti trump crowd" you mean those who believe the law should actually apply to a president? We're pro law, pro constitution which is definitely anti trump. Were he anyone other than an ex president with a cult following of 60 million he'd be in prison for election interference already.The blue lives matter people who defend him, align with this pos are as big a joke as BLM supporting this criminal.

But I get it. Your right. Nothing will likely happen no matter whats discovered, Republican candidates will continue to kiss his ass and maybe he will run and maybe he will win. And we will unfortunately find that a man who botched a pandemic who now inherits it will prove not to be the guy who was born on third base and thinks he hit a homerun which was his first term.
Then god help us.
Trump deserves prison but presidents and apparently ex presidents have far too much power. The ironic thing is Pence would be in his second term now had senate republicans done the right thing.

[Aseahawkfan]

"anti trump crowd" you mean those who believe the law should actually apply to a president? We're pro law, pro constitution which is definitely anti trump. Were he anyone other than an ex president with a cult following of 60 million he'd be in prison for election interference already.The blue lives matter people who defend him, align with this pos are as big a joke as BLM supporting this criminal.

But I get it. Your right. Nothing will likely happen no matter whats discovered, Republican candidates will continue to kiss his ass and maybe he will run and maybe he will win. And we will unfortunately find that a man who botched a pandemic who now inherits it will prove not to be the guy who was born on third base and thinks he hit a homerun which was his first term.
Then god help us.
Trump deserves prison but presidents and apparently ex presidents have far too much power. The ironic thing is Pence would be in his second term now had senate republicans done the right thing.

I mean the anti-Trump crowd who overlook when the presidents and politicians they support do scumbag activities that should imprison them, while attributing all sorts of breaking the law to Trump when other presidents have done equally as bad or worse. Which is why I've always said and will continue to say you have to get Trump on something you can't stick to these other politicians or there will be no political will to get Trump because if they get Trump for something other politicians are doing then the payback will be immense for those politicians.

To put it simply, the scumbag lawbreaking already occurring with politicians is so bad that they have to carefully decide what they stick on Trump to avoid being seen as criminals themselves because Trump isn't doing much new. He's just doing what he's seen and his lawyers tell him he can get away with, but isn't as good as career politicians at covering his tracks because he decided to fight the left wing press and is finding out they will crawl in every nook and cranny to take you down once you piss them off.

But this is all a game to the Democrats. They know the game they're playing. They're calculating what they can stick on Trump, while avoiding retaliation as much as possible.

The law? You are an old man now like me. You have seen that politicians and the wealthy don't suffer the same laws as the rest of us. You've seen elected politicians kill people or their family kill people in drunk driving accidents and walk away. You've watched them engage in military actions that murder civilians and even children and just pay out money to make it go away. You've seen them start illegal wars, cover up banging interns, help their families make money in foreign nations, all types of corrupt behavior for decades. Even one of your favorite presidents Reagan was involved in the Iran-Contra Scandal you know was likely engineered by George Bush Sr. You even read how we trained and funded Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban to fight Russians in Afghanistan before they turned on us and committed 9/11.

What do you need to see any more to realize that the law does not equally apply to powerful and wealthy people in the United States or anywhere in the world before you accept this is how it is and how it will likely always be?

[Hawktawk]

I agree with 99%. I disagree everyone did what Trump did . You will disagree and that’s fine . Collude with Russia . Scream about the origins of it , there’s a there including video of Trump on tape doing aquatic water sports with Russian hookers . Never heard of a Ukraine shakedown before . That was impeachment 1. Then the great lie? No ex president would ever have done it . Don’t misunderstand I still understand . I’m 62 and have watched it all my life . Nothing is gonna change cause they are all scum , just to what degree. I think trumplican s accept a lot more dysfunction and corruption as normal . Nobody else was like this.

[NorthHawk]

I mean the anti-Trump crowd who overlook when the presidents and politicians they support do scumbag activities that should imprison them, while attributing all sorts of breaking the law to Trump when other presidents have done equally as bad or worse.

I'm assuming you aren't including attempting a coup in the 'other presidents have done equally as bad or worse' statement.
Most politicians are duplicitous at best, but Trump lowered the bar on acceptable behavior more than almost any leader of a democratic society outside of those that successfully completed a coup or moved their
country to a totalitarian state. The bald faced lying was at a level that is stunning in its volume. Even using a sharpie on a graphic of a storm to try to show he was right.

[Hawktawk]

I'm assuming you aren't including attempting a coup in the 'other presidents have done equally as bad or worse' statement.
Most politicians are duplicitous at best, but Trump lowered the bar on acceptable behavior more than almost any leader of a democratic society outside of those that successfully completed a coup or moved their
country to a totalitarian state. The bald faced lying was at a level that is stunning in its volume. Even using a sharpie on a graphic of a storm to try to show he was right.

Exactly. That's the main thing but it isn't the only thing. Trump was far and away the most corrupt unhinged president in history but what he did after he lost takes the hand painted raindrop. he should be doing life in the brig.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm assuming you aren't including attempting a coup in the 'other presidents have done equally as bad or worse' statement.
Most politicians are duplicitous at best, but Trump lowered the bar on acceptable behavior more than almost any leader of a democratic society outside of those that successfully completed a coup or moved their
country to a totalitarian state. The bald faced lying was at a level that is stunning in its volume. Even using a sharpie on a graphic of a storm to try to show he was right.

I don't see it as a coup myself. Others want to see it that way, fine. But it lacked most of what I see in attempted coups: backing of some part of the military, backing of other major politicians in the country, a far more organized group with more focused goals than people like the Qanon Shaman or the various mix of disorganized rioters that tried to rip the Capitol up in anger while taking selfies or recording video on their phones of their antics. Trump incited riot, but he didn't attempt a coup in my opinion. Most supporters of presidents don't take losing an election to the point of rioting and believing the president without any real proof, but is that all Trump's fault? Does he have mind control? Nope. The fact is Americans are growing increasingly polarized and angry at the government. We are lucky that he did not launch a coup as it would have been a very different outcome if that had been a real coup rather than a disorganized riot.

Like all things Trump, the anti-Trump crowd want to both make something seem organized and purposeful while also calling Trump an idiot and thinking of him as stupid. It's more of a show of the ridiculousness of those for or against Trump in that he becomes whatever the group for or against him wants him to be at any given point in time.

I'm not really like most of you. I have a pretty extensive knowledge of history. I know for a fact presidents have done far worse than Trump in terms of the cost of lives and generally morally questionable acts. I'm not as asleep at the wheel as most Americans who look at what is televised locally.

For example, I think Truman was wrong to drop two nuclear bombs on Japan. I think that is far worse than anything Trump has done. I think John F. Kennedy Jr. authorizing the Bay of Pigs invasion wasn't particularly lawful. I think our entire relationship over the years with Saudi Arabia has been corrupt and bad foreign policy. I think siding with the French to maintain their colony in Vietnam which ultimately led us to the Vietnam War was a far more immoral and poor decision by a president and government than anything Trump did. There have been so many bad acts by our American government and the various presidents and politicians acting on our behalf that Trump is small potatoes to me in terms of the cost of lives, the disruption, and morally.

Even all the people who want to blame a president for COVID deaths now have to look to Joe Biden who is almost at an equal number of COVID deaths to Trump. Are those Biden's fault? Not in my opinion, but I'm sure it will be used against him. Viral outbreaks are very hard to get control of and American society makes it even more difficult.

What do I attribute to Trump? He lowered the bar for public behavior for a president with his name calling and crass behavior. He incited a riot when he lost an election amongst his followers as they attacked the Capitol in a lie-fueled rage. He emboldened people's worst impulses such as their prejudices whether racial or political. He handled the global pandemic poorly and looked like an idiot doing so. Trump wasn't a great president, but he's pretty far from the president that has done the most evil or amoral acts as president.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with 99%. I disagree everyone did what Trump did . You will disagree and that’s fine . Collude with Russia . Scream about the origins of it , there’s a there including video of Trump on tape doing aquatic water sports with Russian hookers . Never heard of a Ukraine shakedown before . That was impeachment 1. Then the great lie? No ex president would ever have done it . Don’t misunderstand I still understand . I’m 62 and have watched it all my life . Nothing is gonna change cause they are all scum , just to what degree. I think trumplican s accept a lot more dysfunction and corruption as normal . Nobody else was like this.

You need to wake up. Collusion with Russia? Who the hell do you think built China with the full support of the American government over the course of many American presidents. American money built China. We funneled billions in investment money into China with support of various presidents making trade deals with them.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You have a left wing press interested in taking down Trump selling the Russian Collusion angle when Russia is near zero threat to us, while China who every president since what? Nixon? Clinton? have supported funneling massive investment into China for cheap labor to the point we had built most of our supply chains leading to China where we end up buying masks and can't even invoke the Defense Production Act for global pandemic production because we have sent so much manufacturing to China over the years. And your worried about Russian collusion when a country like China can cause a global pandemic and then sell us the materials we need to fight it? That seems ok to you?

Americans really need to wake up to what colluding means. Because we have been colluding with other nations that don't align with us and building up their power for decades.

Yet because the press is telling you Trump colluded with Russia, you suddenly lack the capacity to see how much American government has colluded with foreign entities to the harm of their citizens for decades if not longer. We literally sent our military to protect a foreign nation in Kuwait at the request of Saudi Arabia to protect our mutual oil interests. Us having foreign troops on Saudi Arabian soil is one of the stated reasons why Osama Bin Laden launched the 9/11 attack. This decision to launch troops against Iraq on Saudi Arabian soil was made by President George W. Bush in the 1990s.

It's so astounding how few of you really grasp how much America has been sold out to foreign interests. And how you focus on what Trump did wrong, while ignoring what your government has done over the years that is far worse than anything the Clown Prince President Trump has done.

Trump is nothing but another distraction to Americans who have no real grasp on what their government is doing or has done. Trump is nothing to me. The constant attacks on him are just distractions for the media-manipulated American populace to keep them from focusing on any real change in this nation. The politicians in Washington can keep on making money, maintaining their foreign agreements, and using us Americans as their tax harvesting farm to fuel the money needed for control of the world.

Americans really need to wake up and govern their nation like they're supposed to do. They need to get control of America before the politicians continue to do things that are terrible long-term for America and other nations.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti

Here is a bit of information about America's occupation of Haiti in 1915.

You guys keep talking about Trump as one of the most evil presidents. He's not even close or even in the ballpark compared to what American presidents have done with American tax dollars and military power.

American citizens just don't complain as long as the evil decisions are not done in front of them. Even when it is brought to their attention, they only care if they are sold it as a terribly bad by the media. Otherwise, they just keep watching news and reading sources of information that support their viewpoint.

American politicians have been doing so much to damage this nation and other nations for the financial and political interests of a small number of people inside and outside of America, while Americans are distracted by news stations with talking heads giving two bit opinions that don't even matter much to the powerful in America who take polls of what Americans care about so they know how to harvest their votes while they complain about small potatoes while the politicians are going after much bigger prizes.

No one seems to care when the American military machine is being used as a force of oppression or control that leads to the death of hundreds of thousands. They instead care about some orange haired idiot causing a riot at the Capitol because the media told you so and kept on selling Trump as the big bad evil. Plenty of presidents have done far worse than Trump and will continue to do so because they are a lot better at politics than the Cheeto-haired idiot even while do they far worse with American money and military power than Trump could even dream of doing.

[Hawktawk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Haiti

Here is a bit of information about America's occupation of Haiti in 1915.

You guys keep talking about Trump as one of the most evil presidents. He's not even close or even in the ballpark compared to what American presidents have done with American tax dollars and military power.

American citizens just don't complain as long as the evil decisions are not done in front of them. Even when it is brought to their attention, they only care if they are sold it as a terribly bad by the media. Otherwise, they just keep watching news and reading sources of information that support their viewpoint.

American politicians have been doing so much to damage this nation and other nations for the financial and political interests of a small number of people inside and outside of America, while Americans are distracted by news stations with talking heads giving two bit opinions that don't even matter much to the powerful in America who take polls of what Americans care about so they know how to harvest their votes while they complain about small potatoes while the politicians are going after much bigger prizes.

No one seems to care when the American military machine is being used as a force of oppression or control that leads to the death of hundreds of thousands. They instead care about some orange haired idiot causing a riot at the Capitol because the media told you so and kept on selling Trump as the big bad evil. Plenty of presidents have done far worse than Trump and will continue to do so because they are a lot better at politics than the Cheeto-haired idiot even while do they far worse with American money and military power than Trump could even dream of doing.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5856 ... an-6-probe

No they haven't. No president ever did this ever. Not one ever refused and still refuse to concede a not close election which is the worst thing any president ever did. And the media didn't tell me he started a riot. Cameras dont lie. Judges sentencing his goons are saying it. Now we are learning that not only did he start it along with members of his team but they begged him to stop it for hours. Even Donnie JR said to meadows "you got to stop this $H@t right away. Even Laura Ingraham and Sean Hannity called on meadows to talk sense into Cheeto. Of course you aren't hearing that on Faux now that they are attacking patriotic Americans standing up for democracy.

Stop changing the subject to presidential policy whether you like it or not. That's a presidential prerogative. Insurrection not so much. There's never been a man this evil in the office.

[I-5]

This isn't about policy or who did better or worse for the country. No incumbent president has ever questioned the results of a presidential election. Period. There is no equivalence between Trump or anyone - he stands alone as the only president who refused to recognize his own loss, or and refused to take part in the transfer of power process.

There is no question that he invited and incited Jan 6, with a lot of helpers. I'm glad some of his inner circle are now starting to talk.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/585667-meadows-moves-to-center-of-jan-6-probe

No they haven't. No president ever did this ever. Not one ever refused and still refuse to concede a not close election which is the worst thing any president ever did. And the media didn't tell me he started a riot. Cameras dont lie. Judges sentencing his goons are saying it. Now we are learning that not only did he start it along with members of his team but they begged him to stop it for hours. Even Donnie JR said to meadows "you got to stop this $H@t right away. Even Laura Ingraham and Sean Hannity called on meadows to talk sense into Cheeto. Of course you aren't hearing that on Faux now that they are attacking patriotic Americans standing up for democracy.

Stop changing the subject to presidential policy whether you like it or not. That's a presidential prerogative. Insurrection not so much. There's never been a man this evil in the office.

BS. There have been plenty of men more evil than Trump in the presidential office. You have no idea what evil is unless you're told what it is. To you the early presidents who held the office and allowed enslaved people to continue to be held in this nation are what? Good in your opinion?

Or those who orchestrated wars that killed thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands? Those were justified?

You hate Trump. But you don't have a clear idea of what evil is. There have been plenty more evil to hold the president office and have done more evil than Trump by a good measure.

[Aseahawkfan]

This isn't about policy or who did better or worse for the country. No incumbent president has ever questioned the results of a presidential election. Period. There is no equivalence between Trump or anyone - he stands alone as the only president who refused to recognize his own loss, or and refused to take part in the transfer of power process.

There is no question that he invited and incited Jan 6, with a lot of helpers. I'm glad some of his inner circle are now starting to talk.

There have been plenty who questioned the results of a presidential election. That is an incredibly false statement.

No one has ever done what Trump did as long as Trump did it and refused to concede and then allowed a riot at the Capitol to happen under his watch without attempting to disperse it until he felt like it reveling in the power of his followers rioting based on his BS lies. That I'll give you.

I'm happy Trump's too much of a weakling to have been a real war leader on January 6th or we might be in a Civil War. As per his personality he just wanted to play little ego games without really being ready to push his followers to full on Civil War like they wanted.

That Capitol group came ready to start a Civil War and start jacking members of Congress. But had no leader to push them to it thankfully.

[I-5]

No one has ever done what Trump did as long as Trump did it and refused to concede and then allowed a riot at the Capitol to happen under his watch without attempting to disperse it until he felt like it reveling in the power of his followers rioting based on his BS lies. That I'll give you.

Thanks for 'giving me that', since that is exactly what I meant. But I agree that his hardcore followers were expecting and hoping for a Civil War - and they still do.

[Hawktawk]

It’s hilarious how the hypocrites on Fox News like Hannity engram and Carlson are being exposed by texts to trump Jan 6” please tell them to stop “ most recently Hannity was revealed to have sent texts to Trump telling him to STOP SAYING HE WON THE ELECTION. Yet a year later they continue to float so many lies only 10% of Faux viewers report believing Biden Won . These people are evil anti vax anti democracy cultists . They are the only hope of the far left and far more destructive and dangerous .

[Hawktawk]

Truly mind boggling revelations in the investigation including revelation of 2 draft reports prepared by Trumps advisors calling for seizure of voting machines . One draft called for using the military to do it , the other was for homeland security to seize them . I wonder if that was what triggered Milleys statement that “
The military has no role in the election “. It show how close we were to a full blown crisis and likely civil war . Then Trump suggested just a day ago that if he were president he would pardon the jan 6 rioters . You can’t make it up .

[c_hawkbob]

The Republican party is teetering on the brink of becoming a full blown domestic terrorist organization actively radicalizing Americans to armed civil uprisings. They need to take some serious stock of themselves and decide whether they are patriots or secessionists.

[Aseahawkfan]

We are close to a Civil War. Not sure how you can interpret January 6th any other way. We are one charismatic war leader away from a Civil War. We have the divided issues. We have people armed and ready to go. If Trump wasn't a fake, lying salesman, we would have had a Civil War back on January 6th.

If we weren't close to a Civil War, January 6th would have never happened even with Trump's lies and Trump would have never been elected as the FU candidate to the political establishment.

I don't much get how people can ignore how close America is to a real Civil War and division. They must really have their head in the sand as to how divided this country is and how much these two sides despise each other's beliefs. At the moment we even have people moving to start concentrating political power in certain states and areas, which is a precursor to Civil War. You want people who think like you and are armed concentrated in areas they can start a fight from.

[Hawktawk]

There are no centrists . Lunatics on either fringe . Pick your party. The Libtards and the Trumpanzees . We’re screwed . A nation in steep decline . Sad . Never thought I’d live in a time like this

[RiverDog]

There are no centrists . Lunatics on either fringe . Pick your party. The Libtards and the Trumpanzees . We’re screwed . A nation in steep decline . Sad . Never thought I’d live in a time like this

I hate to agree, but I think you hit the nail on the head this time. There is no place for a moderate conservative like me. I am hoping that the Republicans come to their senses and advance a decent candidate that I can support, but it's not looking good. Then you have Democrats like AOC running around saying that the economic stimulus freebies had nothing to do with inflation.

[c_hawkbob]

Definitely the view from the right.

From where I sit Republicans are 75% Trumpists/secessionists and 25% reasonable folk while Democrats are 75% moderates and 25% fringe.

The middle is still there it just looks like the "other side" to old school R's such as yourselves.

[Aseahawkfan]

And in Washington State I see exactly the opposite. Then again not sure what would be viewed as a moderate Democrat.

I view a radical Dem as the following:

1. You view criminal responsibility by race and income level. If you're a particular minority or lower income level, then your criminal behavior is justified and should be overlooked or disregarded. You create laws that decriminalize all sorts of behavior like thievery, excessive drug use, violent behavior, vagrancy, and anything that might viewed as being too hard on drugged out criminals of a particular race or income level. They can sell heroin in parking lots and you don't do anything about it because the cops have been told not to arrest such people. They can even create teams of shop robbers and the cops are instructed to do nothing about it because shoplifting items less than a $1000 dollars should not be a crime no matter how much damage it does to the business.

2. You allow protesters to drive the police out of police precinct, then allow them to take over six city blocks barricading that area disallowing emergency services into the area. You inform merchants they can no longer charge for their goods and services. You actually think of handing over a police precinct to said protesters as a show of capitulation to their demands after they violently take over said police precinct daring the police to push back and regain control of it.

3. You have public meetings with local government officials present protesting Amazon and trying to drive them out of the city and try to institute a head tax that taxes Amazon for hiring people. It's so bad that union construction workers are protesting against the Democratic Socialists because even they know a head tax for hiring more people is a bad, bad idea.

4. You are put on constant alert on Mayday to be on the lookout for anarchists who plan to attack corporations vandalizing them and engaging in property damage to take down the bad corporations for engaging in business.

5. Even after the main protests have mostly died down, you have "protesters" constantly throwing objects through windows and destroying property of major businesses to the point they are not longer fixing their windows, but covering up with plywood that gets graffitied constantly. The city government does next to nothing about this vandalism because they promised to defund the police and don't want to use more police to punish "protesters" engaged in constant instances of property crime that cause business owners money and stop them from employing people because they have to close the business due to the property damage.

6. You allow encampments of homeless drug addicts who go about from their homeless camp committing thievery and begging to pay for their drug habit. Randomly breaking into cars to steal things or standing in front of 7 11s or other stores begging for money so they can get their next fix while the job market in the area is robust and it is easy to find a job.

This is the reality in Washington State right now. Probably Oregon and California as well.

It's why I'm fairly conflicted. Part of me definitely wants to divide up the country and let the Democrats have their world of rich tech people with private security that tell all of us working people that we're just racist bad people for wanting government to police crime and foul drug abuser behavior. I'd much rather live in a country that believed there are proper standards of behavior and they should be enforced than this world where if you have money or are part of the protected political class, you get private security while you treat the working people like a bunch of people who should have to tolerate bad behavior because our country did wrong in the past. It seems to me the only way you can get that nowadays is support lunatic Republicans who take things too far in the opposite direction.

I'd much prefer an older style Republican that I'm not even sure exists any more or a Manchin-like Democrat who has some sense of there is a proper way to live and there should be some fiscal responsibility regardless of party. These two parties don't leave much of a choice. Then toss in the multinational corporations who have become so powerful and influential they can basically shut anyone down who does not comply with their political and moral viewpoint which seems to be do whatever you want as long as it doesn't cost us any customers. And you have a real toxic social and political climate that makes this place feel not very American.

[RiverDog]

Definitely the view from the right.

From where I sit Republicans are 75% Trumpists/secessionists and 25% reasonable folk while Democrats are 75% moderates and 25% fringe.

The middle is still there it just looks like the "other side" to old school R's such as yourselves.

I agree with your percentages on the Republican side, but your opinion on the Dems being 75% moderate is grossly inflated or we have a dramaticly different definition of the term "moderate".

If there were as many Dem moderates as you claim there is, Biden's job approval would be in the low 20's. His approval amongst independents/swing voters is around 25%, so you can't tell me that 75% of the Dem party is moderate. The left wing of the party has far more influence on Dem policy than do moderates like Manchin and Sinema.

BTW, I never said that there wasn't any middle. I said that there is no longer a home for a fiscal conservative and social moderate as I consider myself as being. I still think there's a lot of moderates out there. Most of that 15% swing in Biden's job approval, from 56% when he took office to 41% today, is due to moderates/swing voters losing faith in him.

It used to be that I could tolerate some of the things I didn't like about Republicans, but now they're more of a cult, and the Democrats are way too fiscally liberal for me to handle. Biden got my vote just because his name wasn't Donald Trump.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with your percentages on the Republican side, but your opinion on the Dems being 75% moderate is grossly inflated or we have a dramaticly different definition of the term "moderate".

If there were as many Dem moderates as you claim there is, Biden's job approval would be in the low 20's. His approval amongst independents/swing voters is around 25%, so you can't tell me that 75% of the Dem party is moderate. The left wing of the party has far more influence on Dem policy than do moderates like Manchin and Sinema.

BTW, I never said that there wasn't any middle. I said that there is no longer a home for a fiscal conservative and social moderate as I consider myself as being. I still think there's a lot of moderates out there. Most of that 15% swing in Biden's job approval, from 56% when he took office to 41% today, is due to moderates/swing voters losing faith in him.

It used to be that I could tolerate some of the things I didn't like about Republicans, but now they're more of a cult, and the Democrats are way too fiscally liberal for me to handle. Biden got my vote just because his name wasn't Donald Trump.

You and I are in Washington State. I don't doubt that c-bob sees the worst of the Republican crazy where he's at in the Red South. I have no doubt we see the worst of the Dem crazy in the Blue Pac Northwest. From what I understand Oregon is even crazier than Washington State, but I don't go there so wouldn't know.

I work in Seattle. I didn't realize how crazy these people were until I started working here because I live in the suburbs. The people in the suburbs are moderate Dems or some mix of moderate Trumper to moderate Republican. In Seattle you see the looney Dems. Almost the entire Seattle City Council is populated by left leaning Dems all the way to crazy Sawant and the Mayor who called a takeover of six city blocks and a police precinct the "Summer of Love" and did next to nothing to protect businesses or people in Seattle during the protests. I don't have a problem with peaceful protesting, but it reached a point where it was no longer peaceful protesting and was a group of vandals destroying property and robbing stuff. The Mayor did not much. Lots of scumbag thievery and property damage that I saw with my own eyes, not on Fox news or some conservative news station. I was watching this stuff happen in real time, so it could not be hidden by the liberal media or exaggerated by the conservative media. I was there. I watched Nordstrom's big window destroyed multiple times. I watched the Starbucks by work repair its window three times before they gave up. I saw the graffiti on the plywood covered windows. Terrible tolerance for rotten behavior.

That's why when someone dismisses what I'm seeing with my own eyes, I lose respect for them. Sorry, I'm not getting propaganda off the news. I'm watching this stuff by where I work. I'm listening to Seattle City Council members attack Amazon on the streets where I work. I'm getting stuck in the traffic jams from the protests. I'm working with coworkers who had their cars broken into. I'm glad my car wasn't. I stopped going to 7 11s a while back of the drug addicted beggars camped outside the doors. I've seen the homeless camps along the free way, under the viaduct, and on the streets of the city or in the forested area behind the Home Depot in Everett. This is all personal experience, not some propaganda from some conservative media. It's quite surprising that people in these cities and areas tolerate this, but somehow they do.

Some of these weird laws are just ridiculous too. They just keep taxing the crap out of us. Paper straws, taxes on sweet drinks, taxes on food delivery, expensive parking, and small percentage based taxes added on to your paycheck for things I wouldn't even use. It's super tiresome.

I was working out at a gym with a cop. After getting to know him a bit, I asked him why don't you guys clean this up more. He said they've been told to overlook small drug transactions or low level thievery. They're short-staffed and they don't want to pursue criminals doing property crime because it's not worth the hassle if anything goes wrong. It's safer for them to take a report from a car or house break in after the fact, than to interact with a criminal while a crime is in progress. Being a cop right now sounds like a real lame situation.

Not sure how Washington State was taken over by what seems like 60s hippies and socialists, but that seems to be what happened. They don't seem to have standards for behavior beyond the common liberal avoidance of being a racist or sexist. But as far as not being a drug addict or a thief or having rotten manners or having respect for other's property, no concern whatsoever. No standards of behavior expected of citizens. Just constant excuses for garbage behavior.

It did not used to be this way when I was young. I'm really not sure when it flipped and changed.

[RiverDog]

You and I are in Washington State. I don't doubt that c-bob sees the worst of the Republican crazy where he's at in the Red South. I have no doubt we see the worst of the Dem crazy in the Blue Pac Northwest. From what I understand Oregon is even crazier than Washington State, but I don't go there so wouldn't know.

I live in Benton County, which isn't as much MAGA as other areas of eastern Washington. Trump got 58% of the vote in 2020. Grant County, where Hawktalk lives, Trump had 66% of the vote. Oregon lines up pretty much like Washington does, with the Portland-Willamette Valley being decidedly liberal, the eastern half of the state being staunch conservative.

Since I've been retired, I don't get out as much as I used to, but my sense is that although there are still a lot of MAGA supporters, they're not the bat chit crazies like those that stormed the Capitol. Hawktalk is probably in a better position to judge than I am, but that's the sense I get.

I work in Seattle. I didn't realize how crazy these people were until I started working here because I live in the suburbs. The people in the suburbs are moderate Dems or some mix of moderate Trumper to moderate Republican. In Seattle you see the looney Dems. Almost the entire Seattle City Council is populated by left leaning Dems all the way to crazy Sawant and the Mayor who called a takeover of six city blocks and a police precinct the "Summer of Love" and did next to nothing to protect businesses or people in Seattle during the protests. I don't have a problem with peaceful protesting, but it reached a point where it was no longer peaceful protesting and was a group of vandals destroying property and robbing stuff. The Mayor did not much. Lots of scumbag thievery and property damage that I saw with my own eyes, not on Fox news or some conservative news station. I was watching this stuff happen in real time, so it could not be hidden by the liberal media or exaggerated by the conservative media. I was there. I watched Nordstrom's big window destroyed multiple times. I watched the Starbucks by work repair its window three times before they gave up. I saw the graffiti on the plywood covered windows. Terrible tolerance for rotten behavior.

Seattle is a cesspool and their city council is a good example of how radical many in the Democratic party have become. Same with Portland, Eugene, and all the other large cities on the west coast. Those folks are every bit as crazy as the Trump followers, but since they aren't the 2nd amendment folks like the MAGA people, they're not nearly as dangerous. They also don't get the media attention as the CNN's and MSNBC's would like to ignore or trivialize the degree of radicalization the Dems are experiencing.

Some of these weird laws are just ridiculous too. They just keep taxing the crap out of us. Paper straws, taxes on sweet drinks, taxes on food delivery, expensive parking, and small percentage based taxes added on to your paycheck for things I wouldn't even use. It's super tiresome.

Yeah, I get tired of hearing this hypocritical "follow the science" rhetoric we get from liberals. Early in the pandemic, at the exact same time when they were shutting down my former employer's facility when just one employee tested positive for Covid and forced them to do a hugely expensive sanitation costing tens of thousands of dollars even though there was very little evidence that the disease spread through contact surfaces, our Dem Governor signs into law a grocery sack ban of which their preferred alternative was a thousand times more unsanitary and subject to the spreading of disease. "Follow the science" only applies if it doesn't conflict with one of their political objectives, like the environment.

I was working out at a gym with a cop. After getting to know him a bit, I asked him why don't you guys clean this up more. He said they've been told to overlook small drug transactions or low level thievery. They're short-staffed and they don't want to pursue criminals doing property crime because it's not worth the hassle if anything goes wrong. It's safer for them to take a report from a car or house break in after the fact, than to interact with a criminal while a crime is in progress. Being a cop right now sounds like a real lame situation.

Not sure how Washington State was taken over by what seems like 60s hippies and socialists, but that seems to be what happened. They don't seem to have standards for behavior beyond the common liberal avoidance of being a racist or sexist. But as far as not being a drug addict or a thief or having rotten manners or having respect for other's property, no concern whatsoever. No standards of behavior expected of citizens. Just constant excuses for garbage behavior.

It did not used to be this way when I was young. I'm really not sure when it flipped and changed.

The Democrats reaction to the BLM riots is a great example of the lunacy that has gripped the Democratic party and why I don't trust their core to govern the country. It's no wonder that the country is so divided.

[Hawktawk]

Both parties are 75% lunatics . Trumpanzee party is easy just read the polls . 60 million think Trump won. Now he’s being overpowered by Trump ism as he is being booed by his cult for advocating life saving vaccines . ( I give him total credit for it too, best thing he’s done) And as opposed to my friend RD I think Manchin and Sinema have a huge impact on policy . They aren’t popular though . But they are real Democrats like Sasse and Liz Cheney who I respect and Bill Cassidy and the Republicans who stood up to Trump are the R party . I would not support Biden again although he’s stabilized a bit lately in the face of real peril. Kamala is light in the loafers . I’d love to vote Republican. Liz Cheney would make a great president . Many younger more moderate candidates I would love to support . You run out Desantus or Hawley or God Forbid Trump I’m outta there
There are going to be decisions made soon on possible legal actions vs Trump . I’ve come to believe he’s to big to prosecute without civil war . Stay tuned

[RiverDog]

Both parties are 75% lunatics . Trumpanzee party is easy just read the polls . 60 million think Trump won. Now he’s being overpowered by Trump ism as he is being booed by his cult for advocating life saving vaccines . ( I give him total credit for it too, best thing he’s done) And as opposed to my friend RD I think Manchin and Sinema have a huge impact on policy . They aren’t popular though . But they are real Democrats like Sasse and Liz Cheney who I respect and Bill Cassidy and the Republicans who stood up to Trump are the R party . I would not support Biden again although he’s stabilized a bit lately in the face of real peril. Kamala is light in the loafers . I’d love to vote Republican. Liz Cheney would make a great president . Many younger more moderate candidates I would love to support . You run out Desantus or Hawley or God Forbid Trump I’m outta there
There are going to be decisions made soon on possible legal actions vs Trump . I’ve come to believe he’s to big to prosecute without civil war . Stay tuned

I agree with everything in your post except for Manchin and Sinema. You're right, they do have a huge effect on Democratic policy. But it's only because the Dem's have the narrowest of majorities in the Senate, so combined with 100% Republican opposition, nothing gets past either of them, so the Dems are forced to deal with the two if they want to pass the simplest of legislation. Manchin and Sinema are part of a very, very small minority of moderate Democrats within the party. If the Dems had 52 or more or 48 or less seats instead of 50, you wouldn't hear a word about them.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah but they have 50. If a pig had a straight tail it would whistle not squeal . Manchin and Sinema are saving america IMO. I never dreamed Biden would be run over by such a liberal agenda . I give him credit for some things in our Covid response but there are still key failures such as testing . As for his build back agenda it’s too damn expensive . We are already blowing up with inflation and have added another 2 trillion in debt in the last year after 7 trillion in the previous 4 years . If we can’t find any middle ground we’re going down as a nation .

[RiverDog]

Yeah but they have 50. If a pig had a straight tail it would whistle not squeal . Manchin and Sinema are saving america IMO. I never dreamed Biden would be run over by such a liberal agenda . I give him credit for some things in our Covid response but there are still key failures such as testing . As for his build back agenda it’s too damn expensive . We are already blowing up with inflation and have added another 2 trillion in debt in the last year after 7 trillion in the previous 4 years . If we can’t find any middle ground we’re going down as a nation .

You're missing my point. I didn't say that Manchin and Sinema aren't saving America. I'm saying that they are rouges within their party and do not come anywhere close to representing a consensus opinion of Democrats. They are way, way out of the mainstream of Democrats.

I also agree with your take on government spending. The last two economic stimulus payments were completely unnecessary as the nation was already back to work and the economy buzzing along. All it did was contribute to a supply shortage by increasing demand. I can't buy the new pickup that I want because car manufacturers cut their orders for chips expecting new car sales to decline because of the pandemic but demand never dropped as people used the excess cash to buy new cars and the auto companies had to take a back seat to others once the chip shortage surfaced.