c_hawkbob wrote:You are literally the only person I know that thinks the two are inextricably linked. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
NorthHawk wrote:From the outside looking in it appears that the BLM protests are a convenient reason for the insurrectionists to behave as they did.
NorthHawk wrote:The sources of both these actions are quite different IMO. BLM was a social protest regarding inequalities in society and the Capitol riot was people trying to overturn the election. Those who rioted or support them might do so as to rationalize their actions.
tarlhawk wrote:I'm not sure the Capitol Riot group were the brightest...they would have accomplished more by staying peacefully encamped as they had started. I saw a reporters footage (I hadn't seen it before) that clearly showed you had a dozen or so aggravators making the atmosphere highly charged and dangerous. This investigators camera footage easily could have been the one that provided the ringleaders and others caught up by their rhetoric for the follow on investigation. The sources for both events are obviously different...but the common thread is that both are involving extremists who had inflamed viewpoints...if injustices are perceived then everyone should realize we are a nation of laws and our justice system can handle the issues. Instead we've allowed widespread distrust which in turn has led these extremists to take things into their own hands. Authority at many levels of our society has crumbled which sets the stage for the "fringe" elements of both political parties to threaten the mainstream hold on respect for our countries laws. Defund the police...at a time when crime has become emboldened to strike anywhere...night or day? This makes sense? The Capitol riot thought they could overturn an election? The votes were already cast...only being certified as a necessary process to have a peaceful transition in our political process which used to be admired by the world at large.
tarlhawk wrote:My point remains the same...I questioned their intelligence...by thinking they could affect the outcome of a race already decided...only the certification was taking place.
tarlhawk wrote:The video I saw showed they were dangerous enough if the Capitol police hadn't moved the members of congress to safety...but alot of the video showed them camping out in the abandoned Senate...making a mockery of what was being desecrated...but Capitol police were present and seemed calm...asking them politely to leave the Senate chambers...most of it was a single officer who convinced them to finally gather up and leave the chambers. The video made it appear as if the police were using force sufficient for the threat being encountered.
NorthHawk wrote:The differences I saw was the rioters had some direction and coordination while the BLM protesters were an ad hoc group who
got a black eye (so to speak) from those who took advantage of the protest to further their own ends or outright criminality
with looting and burning etc. along with a few right wingnuts who fomented violence so as to make it look bad. We can see this
by looking at when the real problems occurred - mostly at night under the cover of darkness. The daytime protests were largely
peaceful in comparison.
Hawktawk wrote:Exactly North. Many groups involved in Jan 6 moved in tactical formations and had specific targets . Some were allowed access to the building prior to the 6 th by Republican congresspeople and their aides for that matter. It’s similar to BLM etc in one way. Both are riots . With BLM the overwhelming majority of protesters were peaceful . With Jan 6 all were wrong . All were advocating overturning the will of the American people . There has never been anything like it .
Hawktawk wrote:My point is what percentage of people in these demonstrations were involved in violence
Hawktawk wrote:I don’t condone violence unless it’s opposing violence . And again nobody wants to talk about organizations like proud boys and oath keepers who spawned and spurred on additional violence . They were responsible for more firearm deaths over the summer of Trump than all those BLM protesters.
Hawktawk wrote:One recebtky pled guilty to shooting up. A Minnesota police station with a kalashnakov to blame it on BLM.
And my point is that given the huge size of the BLM demonstrations and the relatively small size of the Capitol riot, using percentages is extremely misleading. All you're doing is re-iterating a Democratic talking point and playing into their narrative that is meant to distract attention away from their non reaction to the ugly side of BLM, their embracing of the defund the police movement, and law and order issues in general, and re-focus it on the Republican's black eye, Capitol riot. Your using percentages to argue that the BLM riots wasn't as bad as the Capitol riot plays right into the Democrat's political gamesmanship.
And my point is that given the huge size of the BLM demonstrations and the relatively small size of the Capitol riot, using percentages is extremely misleading. All you're doing is re-iterating a Democratic talking point and playing into their narrative that is meant to distract attention away from their non reaction to the ugly side of BLM, their embracing of the defund the police movement, and law and order issues in general, and re-focus it on the Republican's black eye, Capitol riot. Your using percentages to argue that the BLM riots wasn't as bad as the Capitol riot plays right into the Democrat's political gamesmanship.
NorthHawk wrote:But also the BLM protests generally did not include those causing the burning, looting, and violence that ensued. It was simply a platform for those with their own agenda to take advantage of the situation. So percentages (probably impossible to find out) would be a valuable piece of information.
NorthHawk wrote:I would suggest to you that even if the protests were Librarians Against Censorship, there would be people taking the same advantage to further their own cause whether it was personal gain by looting, or more of a political endeavor like the White Supremacists and such. So to conflate the two with the BLM protests falls into the Republicans political gamesmanship. And we saw it by how it was presented and emphasized by the right wing media as a BLM issue, and not a separate violence issue.
Hawktawk wrote:7 % is a low number compared to 60 million people or about 75% of the Republican Party that support the big lie and defend jan 6 and the entire unamerican plan to steal an election. Far worse and more damaging than race protests that have gone on for 6 decades I’m aware of turned violent on the fringe .
Hawktawk wrote:And in these liberal cesspools like Portland and Seattle there’s just nihilistic anarchists rioting to riot , not really any cause and in many places police are beginning to say F it let it burn such as Portland where approximately 500 people decided to go down a city block breaking windows and lighting fires and police didn’t even respond citing new rules of engagement and limits on crowd control measures . In many cases it’s a bogus ploy by officers who want zero oversight of their conduct. But taking away things like pepper spray and rubber bullets , I don’t know the answer . Fir me it’s you riot you get months in prison and if it’s full build a tent . It would stop .
c_hawkbob wrote:Jeezus Riv, the sh!t you'll "correct" people over! 7% is absolutely a number! Any percentage is by definition a number! "7% is a small number" is completely proper phraseology, and factually correct in this context as well.
Hawktawk wrote:What the hell are you talking about me trivializing the protests.
Hawktawk wrote:I’m saying any linkage or comparison to an attempted coup is wrong and the Trumpanzee bases talking point and as such I refuse to accept it. Thread is titled capitol riot investigation . The riots were bad, made far worse and extended by trumps and his skin head folowers . I can’t understand why the people weren’t prosecuted more fully but again, cops many of whom are indeed racist bigoted abusive corrupt cops use it to their advantage too. Not most but many . Way less then the 99.9% good cops crowd wants to say. You seem to minimize George Floyd .
Hawktawk wrote:With Jan 6 all were wrong . All were advocating overturning the will of the American people . There has never been anything like it .
c_hawkbob wrote:Prop 8 was nothing at all like Jan 6th. Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.
RiverDog wrote: Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.
RiverDog wrote: Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.
tarlhawk wrote:I wasn't comparing the two...I was addressing the focused overturning of the American peoples will...our constitution has guided our country for how long before we found it flawed (by not being specific about defining what societies much older than our own have always accepted) I am losing hope in our country standing up for anything.
tarlhawk wrote:There was no chance this event would overturn our election. Military tactics for an organized riot with vain ambitions...sure...but a coups? We are able to exert our military power anywhere in the world except our own capitol...is this the message we want to send to the rest of the world? It was a riot turned ugly that was put down by the Capitol's police force.
Hawktawk wrote:And if you think his fascist walk across Lafayette square with riot cops using shields to smash peaceful black people with signs didn’t turbo the protest you weren’t paying attention. It became a protest of trump at that point .
RiverDog wrote: but I can't speak to the motivations of the rioters as to whether or not they truly believed that they could influence the outcome of the election. You have to be somewhat mentally deranged just to participate in something like that in the first place.
tarlhawk wrote:The crime goes beyond motivations...an example...two men plan a bank robbery...actually entering the bank with concealed weapons. Upon spotting an armed security guard watching them...they get cold feet and begin to leave. The security guard stops them on suspicion and asks them if they are armed with his hand on his own gun. They tell him they are...what crime has been committed legally? Possession of firearms in a restricted area for concealed weapons? ...or attempted armed robbery?
NorthHawk wrote:I think it can be said that some or maybe most of those that entered the building did so in the hopes of changing the election results and maybe harming Members of Congress as an added bonus.
Those that stayed outside may have had the same feelings of this being a patriotic act but were unwilling to take the next step. It seems that many have been brainwashed (for a lack of a better
term) into thinking that they would be some kind of hero if they were able to re-instate Trump as President and that they were challenging rigged election results. So, there were some that were
there to create havoc, but those inside were probably insurrectionists supported by people outside.
Having people inside the building actively trying to overthrow a clean and fair election by violent means is an insurrection, not just a run of the mill riot (so to speak).
Hawktawk wrote:What the hell are you talking about me trivializing the protests . I’m saying any linkage or comparison to an attempted coup is wrong and the Trumpanzee bases talking point and as such I refuse to accept it. Thread is titled capitol riot investigation . The riots were bad, made far worse and extended by trumps and his skin head folowers . I can’t understand why the people weren’t prosecuted more fully but again, cops many of whom are indeed racist bigoted abusive corrupt cops use it to their advantage too. Not most but many . Way less then the 99.9% good cops crowd wants to say. You seem to minimize George Floyd .
RiverDog wrote:Pay attention to the Virginia Governor's race. It's a state that Biden won by 10% in 2020 and should be safely in the Democrats' column but it's currently a toss up. The R candidate is distancing himself somewhat from Trump but he's still using the same talk in an effort to appeal to Trump's core. If the R's win that race, it's a bad omen for things to come for the Dems in the midterms and could provide a blueprint for other R candidates to follow in 2022.
I don't know, nor do I have confidence in what anyone else claims to know, what the 2024 election will look like. As ASF pointed out, the Trump base hasn't gone away. I'm seeing plenty of "F-Biden" flags, Trump 2024 posters, and so on. The radical right hasn't gone anywhere, which is why you see otherwise reasonable R's like their candidate in the VA governor's race, if not embracing Trumpism, certainly is not disavowing it. However, the last election was held in the middle of a pandemic, and IMO it had a lot to do with both the BLM protests/riots and the Capitol20 riot/insurrection.
Hawktawk wrote:There have been significant developments reported over the last few days . The revelation that Jan 6 organizers were using untraceable burner phones to communicate with trumps team in the days leading up
To the riot . Also reported that when it was clear Mike Pence wasn’t going to break the law Trump was frantically calling his allies including his attorneys desperate to find some way to stop the certification . The consensus was to pressure lawmakers into delaying the vote .
The most significant development by far is news that then Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has begun cooperating with the investigation. He had been refusing based on trumps claim of executive privilege . Trump is sueing to block release of all notes but my guess is the chief of staff is the mother lode . This was a flat out attempted coup. Trump should be in prison for a long time .
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