Capitol Riot Investigation

[RiverDog]

We could go with what ifs all day. What if the people that took over the six city blocks in Seattle had executed all the police in the East Precinct and held the 6 city blocks with guns? What if they had burned the police station with the police in it locking them in in Oregon and a bunch of officers died? Do we go by number of people dead due to each incident? How we rating this rotten behavior and the lack of action by the politicians?

I don't think that there was ever any credible threat of the BLM rioters taking prisoners and having them executed to the same degree as what nearly happened in the Capitol riot. I didn't see any BLM rioters carrying giant zip ties. The Capitol rioters were much more sophisticated and more heavily armed, many with military gear and tactics that wasn't present in any of the BLM riots that I read about. That doesn't mean that I'm excusing the BLM rioters and the CHOP takeover, just that the potential for something really ugly happening was far greater in the Capitol riot.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. Our politicians let a bunch of bad behavior pass setting bad precedents across the board for the foreseeable future. The various citizens excuse the bad behavior based on their political affiliation putting degrees of bad on it.

Democrats: The Capitol riots were far worse and that makes them the bigger wrong. The protesters in Seattle taking over six city blocks had an excuse and only one person was killed and a few assaulted in Seattle, so it was no big deal because it wasn't national. It was based on the truth that police offices are terrible racists who kill black people.

Republicans: You let the BLM protests get out of control, which precipitated the Capitol riots because you showed the people the only way they'll be noticed is to riot and tear things apart to get what they want. So why shouldn't we riot and tear things up since you make excuses for that behavior when its done by minorities and Democrat supporters? And we can't trust you. We feel like you stole this election because the Democrats lost on election day, but somehow you won with the mail in votes. We're not buying it.

And they just go back and forth and back and forth with their excuses for terrible behavior based on political affiliation and perception of the truth carefully orchestrated by their media arms.

It's disgusting.

I basically agree with that, but I'm not confident that the Capitol riot had the BLM riots in mind when they assaulted the Capitol. I've seen enough comparisons drawn on social media that would lead me to conclude that it was likely a factor in some of the individual rioter's motivation, but I doubt that the planners had BLM on their minds.

I do agree with your summation of the arguments that each side has with the other, and I will add that neither side has any interest in meeting the other halfway or attempting to understand the opposite POV. It's an ugly, ugly divide with no possible resolution.

[Aseahawkfan]

Just some of the consequences from the left's lack of support for the police after the protests and riots:

Oregon Rapid Response Team resigns: https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/17/portland-police-officers-resign-in-mass-from-rapid-response-team/

Buffalo Riot team resigns: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/05/57-buffalo-police-resign-from-riot-unit-in-protest-of-officers-suspension/?sh=daa3bf6473e1

Seattle police officers: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/i-refuse-work-this-socialist-city-council-resigning-spd-cops-cite-low-morale-safety-city-leaders-reasons-leaving/6DLBHKQLK5EYTMQAV54EI66YSY/

But hey, the Capitol riot was far worse as far long-term effect on the nation. None of these protests and absolute selling out of police officers by the Democrats and their supporters is having a bad effect on the nation. Of course not.

Cue the left wing supporters with their excuses because it didn't happen where they lived and wasn't televised as heavily nationally.

But hey, I love seeing Seattle boarded up with graffiti everywhere and listening to business people tell me that if they fix a window it will get broken again, so they just leave up the plywood. The police won't do anything about it because the politicians have told them not to do anything. It's a great feeling.

For me the Capitol riot was far away and the local protesters (Not even sure they were BLM, just general anarchists that populate this area) taking over of six city blocks and forcing police out of the East Precinct was worse as well as all the property destruction in Seattle.

Listening to the Mayor call it a "Summer of Love" until someone was murdered in the area disgusted me.

The fact some of you can't see that having your home city ripped apart while politicians do nothing about it is as bad as some Capitol riot far away is beyond me. It is as bad for us living and working in the city than some far away riot that ended after a single day, when for weeks your home city is getting ripped apart while the politicians do jack squat about it.

[RiverDog]

Just some of the consequences from the left's lack of support for the police after the protests and riots:

Oregon Rapid Response Team resigns: https://www.opb.org/article/2021/06/17/portland-police-officers-resign-in-mass-from-rapid-response-team/

Buffalo Riot team resigns: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/05/57-buffalo-police-resign-from-riot-unit-in-protest-of-officers-suspension/?sh=daa3bf6473e1

Seattle police officers: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/i-refuse-work-this-socialist-city-council-resigning-spd-cops-cite-low-morale-safety-city-leaders-reasons-leaving/6DLBHKQLK5EYTMQAV54EI66YSY/

But hey, the Capitol riot was far worse as far long-term effect on the nation. None of these protests and absolute selling out of police officers by the Democrats and their supporters is having a bad effect on the nation. Of course not.

Cue the left wing supporters with their excuses because it didn't happen where they lived and wasn't televised as heavily nationally.

But hey, I love seeing Seattle boarded up with graffiti everywhere and listening to business people tell me that if they fix a window it will get broken again, so they just leave up the plywood. The police won't do anything about it because the politicians have told them not to do anything. It's a great feeling.

For me the Capitol riot was far away and the local protesters (Not even sure they were BLM, just general anarchists that populate this area) taking over of six city blocks and forcing police out of the East Precinct was worse as well as all the property destruction in Seattle.

Listening to the Mayor call it a "Summer of Love" until someone was murdered in the area disgusted me.

The fact some of you can't see that having your home city ripped apart while politicians do nothing about it is as bad as some Capitol riot far away is beyond me. It is as bad for us living and working in the city than some far away riot that ended after a single day, when for weeks your home city is getting ripped apart while the politicians do jack squat about it.

You forgot to note the Democratic Seattle City Council member that led protesters to the mayor's house:

Seattle City Councilmember Kshama Sawant joined a large group of protesters outside the CHOP zone who marched to (Mayor Jenny) Durkan's house on Sunday afternoon.

"Mayor Durkan and her family are in the state program to keep their address confidential because of the death threats mostly related to her work as Seattle's U.S. Attorney under President Obama. Instead of working to make true change, Councilmember Sawant continues to choose political stunts. Tonight she did so without regard for the safety of the Mayor and her family. The Mayor was not even home - she was working at City Hall. Seattle can and should peacefully demonstrate but should not put families and children at risk."

https://www.king5.com/article/news/loca ... da5f9ccf1f

I think that's one that most Democrats would like to forget.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think that there was ever any credible threat of the BLM rioters taking prisoners and having them executed to the same degree as what nearly happened in the Capitol riot. I didn't see any BLM rioters carrying giant zip ties. The Capitol rioters were much more sophisticated and more heavily armed, many with military gear and tactics that wasn't present in any of the BLM riots that I read about. That doesn't mean that I'm excusing the BLM rioters and the CHOP takeover, just that the potential for something really ugly happening was far greater in the Capitol riot.

Not sure how you rate this considering they didn't take a single politician hostage. If they were more organized, they sure did a worse job than the protesters in Washington State who were able to hold six city blocks for weeks and drive out an entire police precinct.

The Capitol rioters looked like a bunch of disorganized survivalists and loons on the television. They had a guy called the Qanon Shaman in a Viking hat. A bunch of wannbe survivalist who never used their weapons. A few guys with zip ties and such thinking they were starting a revolution that didn't even use them. They went against an completely unprepared police force and couldn't do more? Sorry, man, the possibility for danger did not look near as high to me.

And lo and behold they did nothing but vandalize parts of the Capitol. So either they were total failures (could be the case) or a disorganized group of loons surprised they even made it as far as they did. On TV they looked like the latter to me, like they were surprised they met with so little opposition and were caught up in the moment. And after the fact they look like a bunch of dumbass citizens from various jobs who lost their minds on a single day that had no real organization or plan and weren't even ready for the success they had.

I basically agree with that, but I'm not confident that the Capitol riot had the BLM riots in mind when they assaulted the Capitol. I've seen enough comparisons drawn on social media that would lead me to conclude that it was likely a factor in some of the individual rioter's motivation, but I doubt that the planners had BLM on their minds.

I do agree with your summation of the arguments that each side has with the other, and I will add that neither side has any interest in meeting the other halfway or attempting to understand the opposite POV. It's an ugly, ugly divide with no possible resolution.

Those are just examples of excuses I've heard. Not exactly what each side has in mind. I tossed that out there as examples of excuse making.

They both excuse each other's bad behavior.

It's ridiculous. Arguing over which riot is worse. Arguing over which caused more death and property damage or long-term harm to the nation.

Trump caused the Capitol riot. He wound them up and set them loose.

The Mayor and Seattle City Council, specifically Kshawa Sawant, incited the take over of the CHOP and the Mayor did nothing to stop it literally ordering her police to leave.

This is not the type of politicians that should be in office. I don't know why we don't have a mechanism for getting rid of these people for allowing this garbage.

[RiverDog]

Not sure how you rate this considering they didn't take a single politician hostage. If they were more organized, they sure did a worse job than the protesters in Washington State who were able to hold six city blocks for weeks and drive out an entire police precinct.

I was rating it based on how they were armed and the verbal chants that were heard. They were actively searching for Pelosi and Pence, and had they gotten to them, I think that there was a very real possibility of an execution. I didn't see that in the CHOP takeover where the cops basically surrendered and moved out and let the protesters take it over.

The Capitol rioters looked like a bunch of disorganized survivalists and loons on the television. They had a guy called the Qanon Shaman in a Viking hat. A bunch of wannbe survivalist who never used their weapons. A few guys with zip ties and such thinking they were starting a revolution that didn't even use them. They went against an completely unprepared police force and couldn't do more? Sorry, man, the possibility for danger did not look near as high to me.

And lo and behold they did nothing but vandalize parts of the Capitol. So either they were total failures (could be the case) or a disorganized group of loons surprised they even made it as far as they did. On TV they looked like the latter to me, like they were surprised they met with so little opposition and were caught up in the moment. And after the fact they look like a bunch of dumbass citizens from various jobs who lost their minds on a single day that had no real organization or plan and weren't even ready for the success they had.

Some of them looked and acted as you described, but there were a lot of them that were ex-military, heavily armed, had a plan and knew what they were doing.

Those are just examples of excuses I've heard. Not exactly what each side has in mind. I tossed that out there as examples of excuse making.

They both excuse each other's bad behavior.

It's ridiculous. Arguing over which riot is worse. Arguing over which caused more death and property damage or long-term harm to the nation.

Trump caused the Capitol riot. He wound them up and set them loose.

The Mayor and Seattle City Council, specifically Kshawa Sawant, incited the take over of the CHOP and the Mayor did nothing to stop it literally ordering her police to leave.

This is not the type of politicians that should be in office. I don't know why we don't have a mechanism for getting rid of these people for allowing this garbage.

Agreed.

[Aseahawkfan]

I was rating it based on how they were armed and the verbal chants that were heard. They were actively searching for Pelosi and Pence, and had they gotten to them, I think that there was a very real possibility of an execution. I didn't see that in the CHOP takeover where the cops basically surrendered and moved out and let the protesters take it over.

I guess. I don't know what is media hype and what is real any more as far as the news goes.

To me the Capitol Riot looked like a disorganized bunch of protesters who looked they were expecting more resistance, didn't get it, so ran amok with no real organization. Even the video of that Capitol Security or Police officer opening the door before the mob ran in looked like he opened the door, the mob was there screaming, then he ran off, then some guy went, "What do I do now? I guess run after him." He ran after him and the rest of lemmings followed. Then once they got in they didn't know what to do, so they started taking pictures and causing general havoc.

If there plan was to capture or execute some politicians, they completely failed. For a mob that size even with some military and police who were trained amongst them, that is a huge failure given how little resistance they met. So either they were completely incompetent (possible) or weren't really that organized or focused on assassinating or harming anyone.

Some of them looked and acted as you described, but there were a lot of them that were ex-military, heavily armed, had a plan and knew what they were doing.

Then those people are ridiculous incompetent as they made it quite far into The Capitol building and could have captured at least a few politicians or killed them if they were prepared, well armed, or knew what they were doing.

To me they seemed lost, misguided, and to have had no plan as to what do once they made it inside.

Or they were just that dumb and they were the most incompetent military or police personnel in history. They penetrated deep into the Capitol building with minimal resistance and couldn't carry out their plan to capture or kill even one politician? I find that hard to believe myself.

Agreed.

The fact that we allow these two parties to essentially manipulate us to the degree that we do is terrible.

[Hawktawk]

These two sides are headed for such a bad clash. You both excuse bad bad behavior based on your political affiliation. You can't even agree on what bad behavior is. You always have an excuse in your pocket as to why the other's behavior is somehow worse and neither side can even see bad behavior for what it is.

This political divide is ruining this nation.

When both sides are so insane that they excuse their own side's terrible behavior, then you have no one to blame when the other side doesn't listen but yourself. Orange-haired Clown did not start this garbage. He was just far too obvious about it and took it the farthest. But it was the American people and their complete disregard for their sides behavior that is allowing this to be pushed to the level it is. Both making excuses like c-bob and you making excuses for a Mayor and Governor allowing 6 city blocks to be taken over, police driven out of a precinct, and the laws of the mob to control six city blocks for weeks and the Republicans making excuses for riots at our Capitol to protest an election that propaganda pushed as false. It's ok to the Democrats to throw the cops under the bus. It's ok to the Republicans to have riots at the Capitol.

What a terrible way to view the world.

I think you misinterpret my feelings on these riots . I’ve felt since day one that groups like BLM overplay their hand much of the time . Guys like Big Mike Brown deserved their Darwin Award . You attempt to disarm a cop then charge him from 25 yards away after a strong arm robbery you shouldn’t have Al Sharpton preaching your funeral . Had Darrin Wilson not killed him he would have been killed with his own gun by a guy the size of an nfl lineman. Alton Sterling in Louisiana had a gun and was wrestling with police officers .

Not every black shoot is bad . Most are not about race . I completely disagree with these namby Mayors basically surrendering to anarchists .

But as I’ve said it’s not all made up. I’ve got plenty of cops I know and among them is a retired WSP troop who told me 10 years ago he liked F#{ng with Mexicans . He was smiling , had a gleam in his eye .

I have a current employee who is retired MLPD who has admitted to “ rough rides” ie slamming on the brakes and bouncing a belligerent drunk passenger off the protective screen . It’s what killed Freddy Gray in Baltimore .I’ve heard similar stories from another trooper I know who slammed a guy for saying his attorney was probably sleeping with the troopers wife that very moment .

As I’ve said cops routinely lie , plant evidence , play favorites ( same ML cop admitted to routinely arranging for rides for wealthy connected locals caught drinking and driving . ) there’s some problems with our police . Not as many as the defund the police crowd or the idiots who passed this law in Washington do but a hell of a lot more than the Fox News law and order crowd thinks they do . My one strong disagreement is with tying these riots to an insurrection that was 100% the fault of a sitting lame duck president. We’ve had protests in the streets forever but what happened on Jan 6 was just evil and completely undemocratic .

[c_hawkbob]

Asea, I just can't believe you, every time a take you off of ignore you make me regret it. I haven't been making excuses for anyone and I totally resent you using me as an example of whatever off the wall sh!t your pushing now. See ya.

[Hawktawk]

Asea, I just can't believe you, every time a take you off of ignore you make me regret it. I haven't been making excuses for anyone and I totally resent you using me as an example of whatever off the wall sh!t your pushing now. See ya.

Really Bob? That’s a bummer . I disagree often with Asea but find him to be a very intelligent and thought provoking person with a good finger on the pulse of the stalemate called America .

[RiverDog]

Asea, I just can't believe you, every time a take you off of ignore you make me regret it. I haven't been making excuses for anyone and I totally resent you using me as an example of whatever off the wall sh!t your pushing now. See ya.

Really Bob? That’s a bummer . I disagree often with Asea but find him to be a very intelligent and thought provoking person with a good finger on the pulse of the stalemate called America .

I'm with HT on this one. If anyone has a reason to have developed a thin skin, it's Hawktalk. And the sad thing is, he was closer to being right about a lot of things than any of us that post or posted here regularly.

I get called out on occasion, too, sometimes unfairly IMO. I just respond by wiping out the personal stuff I don't like in a poster's comments and reply only to that which is relevant to the topic and that seems to end it. There's too few of us left to start putting others on ignore.

[Aseahawkfan]

Asea, I just can't believe you, every time a take you off of ignore you make me regret it. I haven't been making excuses for anyone and I totally resent you using me as an example of whatever off the wall sh!t your pushing now. See ya.

I never hear you call out a Democrat or their crap behavior ever. I can't even recall it.

Maybe if I saw you show some idea you understand how bad it was in Seattle, then I would know you get what it is like to live in a city where the Mayor allowed a group to take over six city blocks and now absolutely terrible that is. They instituted their own laws. They drove out the police. They negotiated for terms like terrorists forcibly holding a section of a major city in the United States. They didn't get moved out until someone was murdered. They held this area for weeks. The Mayor has a news clip downplaying this talking about "I guess we'll have a summer of love." What kind of leader is that? Democratic leadership completely downplayed this garbage and ignored it until someone was killed.

A certain segment of the protesters broke into stores, looted them. and did this continuously to the point where I saw local businesses like Starbucks and Nordstrom in downtown Seattle stop replacing the plywood with glass. I asked a barista at Starbucks why, they told me that they stopped because the last few times they replaced the glass someone broke it out again so corporate stopped replacing it. The city was covered with plywood over windows with spray-painted graffiti all over it while the news vilified police. All I see is Democrats and the liberal media downplaying this like it wasn't happening, like a group of "protesters" didn't just take over six city blocks of a major American city, which should not happen.

This is a garbage way to run a city. I don't see how a group taking over six city blocks including a police precinct is not also an insurrection. Now the Democrats are all over this Capitol riot, while they were just fine having six city blocks taken over. What kind of message is that?

You seem to overlook this as though it is nothing of importance. It pisses me off that you and Hawktawk would do this. It is absolutely not enjoyable living in a state where this insane garbage is going on.

To me it's every bit as insane as these ignorant Trump followers believing a guy who literally gave an interview sitting on a gold throne is in their corner and not just manipulating them because he can.

I don't get why so many Americans are downplaying this trash behavior from these political parties solely on the basis of this BS "lesser of two evils" analogy when it is becoming a situation of "two equally awful evils" perpetrated by two parties that have leadership that has lost their fricking minds.

But how about calling out the pathetic Democrats when they do ridiculously awful policies and equally terrible leadership?

This country needs change from both of these scummy parties. It's only going to happen if Americans stop tolerating this garbage leadership.

[RiverDog]

Maybe if I saw you show some idea you understand how bad it was in Seattle, then I would know you get what it is like to live in a city where the Mayor allowed a group to take over six city blocks and now absolutely terrible that is. They instituted their own laws. They drove out the police. They negotiated for terms like terrorists forcibly holding a section of a major city in the United States. They didn't get moved out until someone was murdered. They held this area for weeks. The Mayor has a news clip downplaying this talking about "I guess we'll have a summer of love." What kind of leader is that? Democratic leadership completely downplayed this garbage and ignored it until someone was killed.

A certain segment of the protesters broke into stores, looted them. and did this continuously to the point where I saw local businesses like Starbucks and Nordstrom in downtown Seattle stop replacing the plywood with glass. I asked a barista at Starbucks why, they told me that they stopped because the last few times they replaced the glass someone broke it out again so corporate stopped replacing it. The city was covered with plywood over windows with spray-painted graffiti all over it while the news vilified police. All I see is Democrats and the liberal media downplaying this like it wasn't happening, like a group of "protesters" didn't just take over six city blocks of a major American city, which should not happen.

I can confirm this. I used to go to football and baseball games in the stadium district and park for free along one of the side streets, but not anymore. I'll gladly pay the $30 or so to park in a garage and not have to worry about my car getting vandalized.

Seattle is an open cess pool. It's not only the plywood and abandon buildings, it's the homelessness and tent cities. Recently, the state DOT had to remove a homeless encampment near a downtown Seattle freeway because they were throwing rocks from overpasses onto vehicles at random:

A small surveillance plane buzzed large circles around Capitol Hill and the Central District early Thursday morning as crews prepared to remove encampments above the I-90 and I-5 interchange area in the core of Seattle after weeks of rock and debris throwing incidents freeway endangering motorists.

https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2021 ... s-arrests/

It never used to be this way. Up until about the turn of the century, downtown Seattle was a really fun place to go, especially this time of year when it's hotter than the hubs of hell here in E. WA but very comfortable on the west side. I'd meet up with some of my old college buddies at a Mariners game, go bar hopping in Pioneer Square after the game, crash at a hotel in downtown in the early hours of the next morning. Not anymore. Both the city and the state have been run by liberal Democrats for the past two decades. They're the ones that created this environment. That's why I refer to liberal Democrats as Bedwetters, as in "I feel your pain!" Give me a break!

[c_hawkbob]

Asea, I just can't believe you, every time a take you off of ignore you make me regret it. I haven't been making excuses for anyone and I totally resent you using me as an example of whatever off the wall sh!t your pushing now. See ya.

Really Bob? That’s a bummer . I disagree often with Asea but find him to be a very intelligent and thought provoking person with a good finger on the pulse of the stalemate called America .

I don't care. If I take issue with you I address you, if I have a problem with Riv I take it up with Riv, I don't talk about him to everybody else! And I just don't have the time or energy anymore to say "I never said that" or "that's not what I believe at all" every time he sees fit to use me as an example of whatever boogyman he's ranting about this time.

[RiverDog]

I don't care. If I take issue with you I address you, if I have a problem with Riv I take it up with Riv, I don't talk about him to everybody else! And I just don't have the time or energy anymore to say "I never said that" or "that's what I believe at all" every time he sees fit to use me as an example of whatever boogyman he's ranting about this time.

I do wish you wouldn't put other posters on ignore, and the reason I say that is because I value your contributions and wish you'd post more. Putting others on ignore means that you're less of a participant than you otherwise would be.

I like this forum because it's small and the ones that do post here are very thoughtful and intelligent. We've lost a bunch of posters over the past couple of years to the point where if we lose even one or two more, the place is going to dry up and die.

So as one friend to another, please reconsider. Ignore the comments, not the poster.

[Hawktawk]

I never hear you call out a Democrat or their crap behavior ever. I can't even recall it.

Maybe if I saw you show some idea you understand how bad it was in Seattle, then I would know you get what it is like to live in a city where the Mayor allowed a group to take over six city blocks and now absolutely terrible that is. They instituted their own laws. They drove out the police. They negotiated for terms like terrorists forcibly holding a section of a major city in the United States. They didn't get moved out until someone was murdered. They held this area for weeks. The Mayor has a news clip downplaying this talking about "I guess we'll have a summer of love." What kind of leader is that? Democratic leadership completely downplayed this garbage and ignored it until someone was killed.

A certain segment of the protesters broke into stores, looted them. and did this continuously to the point where I saw local businesses like Starbucks and Nordstrom in downtown Seattle stop replacing the plywood with glass. I asked a barista at Starbucks why, they told me that they stopped because the last few times they replaced the glass someone broke it out again so corporate stopped replacing it. The city was covered with plywood over windows with spray-painted graffiti all over it while the news vilified police. All I see is Democrats and the liberal media downplaying this like it wasn't happening, like a group of "protesters" didn't just take over six city blocks of a major American city, which should not happen.

This is a garbage way to run a city. I don't see how a group taking over six city blocks including a police precinct is not also an insurrection. Now the Democrats are all over this Capitol riot, while they were just fine having six city blocks taken over. What kind of message is that?

You seem to overlook this as though it is nothing of importance. It pisses me off that you and Hawktawk would do this. It is absolutely not enjoyable living in a state where this insane garbage is going on.

To me it's every bit as insane as these ignorant Trump followers believing a guy who literally gave an interview sitting on a gold throne is in their corner and not just manipulating them because he can.

I don't get why so many Americans are downplaying this trash behavior from these political parties solely on the basis of this BS "lesser of two evils" analogy when it is becoming a situation of "two equally awful evils" perpetrated by two parties that have leadership that has lost their fricking minds.

But how about calling out the pathetic Democrats when they do ridiculously awful policies and equally terrible leadership?

This country needs change from both of these scummy parties. It's only going to happen if Americans stop tolerating this garbage leadership.

I can see where Chawk Bob is coming from saying you pop off, put words in peoples mouths somehow. I'm not Bob, I'm not a liberal although far more centrist and reasonable than 4 or 5 years ago. I have never spoken a work in support of these anarchists turning liberal downtowns into cesspools. Like Biden says "looting and rioting isn't protesting".An overwhelming majority of Americans of both parties as well as independents understand that. By the same token My last response to you I said I cant understand why these mayors did this, surrendered to a bunch of anarchists(and fascists like proud boys) to destroy their city.

Where you and I disagree is in the legitimacy of the protests that spawned all the violence on the fringe. You thought it was perfectly fine for a cop to pump seven slugs in the back of a guy who was trying to do what his ex wife wanted which was leave the house. He had kids in the car. Of course they investigated themselves and found the cop did nothing wrong But reasonable people could be p1SST over that and go protest in a nation which was founded in protest.

Then theres George Floyd which broke something in me, really changed my long held belief that cops are right 99% of the time. If you don't get it you're a dunce or so far in your right wing corner you dont care. It was a LEAD OFFICER IN MINNEAPOLIS with a force of thousands of cops with 18 previous complaints of excessive force including kneeling on the neck of a cuffed 17 year old black kid for 17 minutes after punching him so hard in the face he broke bones. THIS WAS A GUY TRAING COPS IN THEIR FIRST WEEK killing a previously 10 minutes earlier polite smiling man who hadn't had a police contact in 15 years who MAY OR MAY NOT have knowingly passed a 20$ counterfeit bill. Asea I dont remember any protests in portland or seattle or anywhere else before than . Then right when things were calming down there was Jacob Blake, the guy in Kenosha who got 7 slugs in the back a few weeks later. Polls showed Biden gained ground in Wisconsin with his measured approach speaking with both law enforcement and the family of the man shot. Meanwhile the Cheeto was fanning the flames with his public statements then creating mayhem in Lafayette park bulldozing people with signs protesting George Floyd, arresting 400 of them, gassing them so Cheeto could go hold up a bible flanked by military and law enforcement brass, pure fascism. Words of calm for a torn apart nation.? Nope, just a fascist photo op. That's what you can't seem to accept. It takes 2 to tango and these persecuted cops have Derrick Chauvin and the Cheeto to blame. It wasn't an Antifa or BLM guy who crossed state lines to patrol with an AR15 and wind up shooting 3 people, killing 2 and hes a right wing hero. Imagine a BLM or Antifa guy packing an AR around with that police presence, much less shooting 3 people and the cops kept their guns in the holster.........

Asea there's a problem with law enforcement, there is, The truth is in the middle.As I've said I have cop friends who have admitted, bragged about racially profiling hispanics. In a way I understand I guess. They have admitted to giving rough rides to belligerent unrestrained arrestees, bouncing them off the screen by grenading the brakes etc. I employ a retired MLPD who says he's talked to his still active friends and they say its hard to find cops and the only people applying are "antifa guys" . I'm not sure what he means by that but its been proven over and over that white supremacists and racists seek law enforcement positions to be in the perfect position to do damage. There are hundreds of stories. I've not seen any real effort to weed them out.My guy Paul is a good guy but it shows the entrenched attitude, anyone who wants to move policing to a less confrontational model is not welcome. They dismiss George Floyds killer as alone wolf, a bad apple but the guy was a training officer in a huge city. That city has a problem along with lots of others.

My bottom line though, why I jumped back in the thread is to absolutely completely disagree that there is any moral equivalency between these misguided spun out lawless people on the fringe rioting and a naked attempt by a sitting president , a lame duck loser to overturn his loss by violence against our nations capitol. Its ridiculous to say there is. Its the worst thing Ive ever seen in 61 years of life, now the 6th suicide among responding officers and the right wing is attacking survivors who are testifying as being politically motivated. I'll never support a party that supports that ever, I dont care about the ideology.

Don't like Biden? Try again in 3 years. If its Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney etc Ill be right there with ya. If Its Cheeto or Governor Ron Deathsantis no thanks.

[tarlhawk]

Maybe I'm simplifying things but where did this sudden division of race strengthen into a tempest? The killing of anyone being detained for resisting arrest is very tragic and betrays trust in those expected to exemplify law and order...but how this disturbing event could be exploited to dangerous stereotyping of all cops are racist...or a step further that we are a nation of racists when we just elected Obama to not one but two terms? This is a culling of hatred...has there not been cases where similar tragedy of a death while being detained for resisting arrest occurred to a non-minority? The Human Race incorporates all races and allows one divide to focus on : between good and evil...that should be the only fixated difference to focus on. We know there are varying degrees of each in everyone of us...hidden by the inability to see inside our hearts. Our laws provide safety against those individuals who overtly lose control of this balance and puts others at risk...either indirectly (drunk driving)..or direct (murder). The more a culture divides itself from within...the more it invites chaos/weakness.

[RiverDog]

Maybe I'm simplifying things but where did this sudden division of race strengthen into a tempest? The killing of anyone being detained for resisting arrest is very tragic and betrays trust in those expected to exemplify law and order...but how this disturbing event could be exploited to dangerous stereotyping of all cops are racist...or a step further that we are a nation of racists when we just elected Obama to not one but two terms? This is a culling of hatred...has there not been cases where similar tragedy of a death while being detained for resisting arrest occurred to a non-minority? The Human Race incorporates all races and allows one divide to focus on : between good and evil...that should be the only fixated difference to focus on. We know there are varying degrees of each in everyone of us...hidden by the inability to see inside our hearts. Our laws provide safety against those individuals who overtly lose control of this balance and puts others at risk...either indirectly (drunk driving)..or direct (murder). The more a culture divides itself from within...the more it invites chaos/weakness.

Those are some good comments about a topic that's worth discussing, but how do they relate to the thread title, Capitol Riot Investigation? Don't be afraid to start a new thread if you don't see a topic that aligns with whatever it is you want to discuss. Nevertheless, I'll take a shot at responding to your post.

These past 18 months or so are the worst this country has seen in my lifetime, and I'm soon to be 67 years old, so I lived through the late 60's when the nation was literally torn apart. I attribute it to a number of factors, not in any particular order:

Donald Trump. Absolutely the worst POTUS we've ever had, at least as far as leadership goes. He's ignited a culture war, fostered distrust of our democratic process, leached out the worst emotions from deep inside many a person's soul.

The pandemic. It turned the economy upside down and put a lot of people out of work. The Devil has work for idle hands, hence the BLM riots. It de-humanized us by masking us and making us walk around like a bunch Stepford wives. No one cares about their fellow man anymore. It's all about individual rights.

Social media. It's created a platform for anyone anywhere to say anything at any time without any kind of filter. Damned that 1st Amendment!

Moronish America. We were dumb enough to vote Donald Trump into office, and without the ability to process information, we believe anything we see or hear over social media, causing mistrust in science and medicine.

That's it for starters.

[Hawktawk]

Presidential aides refusing to testify and will go to jail for loser black belt Nina loser Pussy. Pence had the gall to say the investigation of the first breach of the capitol in which perps were chanting hang mike pence was a distraction from Biden’s failures .to be fair Biden makes me ill for th most part . 25th amendment please . But the right is trying to somehow whitewash this , erase it because they know it’s so bad .

[tarlhawk]

"Distractions" this early in his presidency won't be remembered as well as what is to come further from now but closer to the next election cycle. Too many people get tied up by the president as an individual...executive branch still performs its role...but lately they seem only to be our "face" to the world. The party members who make up the legislative branch play a far bigger role in shaping our country from within...and the judicial branch is still a power left in place long after a president has been replaced. The power of a Federal judge...and those few opportunities of setting in place a Supreme Court Justice...is still a very real power. I respect whoever represents the office of president whether I like him as a person or not. Jimmy Carter was a nice man but a weak president...actually influencing my switching "to the other side". My vote goes to the party that best represents and lines up with my own ideals and hopes for a better country going forward.

One of the first debates I had watched with any real interest was Bush Vs Dukakis. At that time...I think it was at the very end of the debate...each candidate was allowed to ask one question directed at his opponent. Mr. Bush's question was "Are you a card carrying member of the ACLU?" I noticed Mr. Dukakis was suddenly uncomfortable...started answering in an evasive way... (Mr.Bush) "Answer my question yes or no...are you a card carrying member of the ACLU?" (Dukakis) A delayed but blurted..Yes. I had no idea what acronym he was referring to by ACLU...but that issue stuck with me until I had found out. RD...I will utilize this and my previous post to tie-in to the original subject matter of your originating post.

[RiverDog]

"Distractions" this early in his presidency won't be remembered as well as what is to come further from now but closer to the next election cycle. Too many people get tied up by the president as an individual...executive branch still performs its role...but lately they seem only to be our "face" to the world. The party members who make up the legislative branch play a far bigger role in shaping our country from within...and the judicial branch is still a power left in place long after a president has been replaced. The power of a Federal judge...and those few opportunities of setting in place a Supreme Court Justice...is still a very real power. I respect whoever represents the office of president whether I like him as a person or not. Jimmy Carter was a nice man but a weak president...actually influencing my switching "to the other side". My vote goes to the party that best represents and lines up with my own ideals and hopes for a better country going forward.

You covered a lot of territory there. You're right, voters have a short attention span. What happens in October of 2021 won't be remembered in November of 2022 let alone 2024. I don't believe that the investigation's purpose was to distract from Biden's problems, but it certainly is having that effect. The Dems will want to keep the capitol riot in the news cycle for as long as they can, especially now with Biden's poll numbers in the toilet.

As far as Congress shaping our country, like the rest of the country, there's not enough of a consensus to do anything. They can't agree on where to have lunch. So long as the government doesn't shut down or go into default, the current status is fine with me. The country will get along without them or any laws they might pass. All they'll do is make things worse. I am mildly concerned about SCOTUS. I'm a little worried that they have shifted away from Robert's grasp somewhat. I was disappointed that they let the Texas abortion law stand. But we'll see. If there's been one branch of government that I have had faith in, it's been the Supreme Court. And you're right, Carter was/is a helluva nice guy that got in over his head, but I'd take him every day of the week and twice on Sundays over #45 and #46.

One of the first debates I had watched with any real interest was Bush Vs Dukakis. At that time...I think it was at the very end of the debate...each candidate was allowed to ask one question directed at his opponent. Mr. Bush's question was "Are you a card carrying member of the ACLU?" I noticed Mr. Dukakis was suddenly uncomfortable...started answering in an evasive way... (Mr.Bush) "Answer my question yes or no...are you a card carrying member of the ACLU?" (Dukakis) A delayed but blurted..Yes. I had no idea what acronym he was referring to by ACLU...but that issue stuck with me until I had found out. RD...I will utilize this and my previous post to tie-in to the original subject matter of your originating post.

The deal with Dukakis and the ACLU was that Bush was hanging the "liberal" label on him and Dukakis ducked it for as long as he could. Liberalism was a 4 letter word at the time as the Reagan Revolution was still in full force. I don't recall the incident you mentioned in the debates but I can remember Bush making a lot of hay about Dukakis and the ACLU.

And no problem with your subject matter. We don't get enough traffic in this forum that would compel us to adhere strictly to the topic. We often times have threads that wander all over the place. I just wanted to assure you that it's OK for a relatively new poster to start a new thread.

[tarlhawk]

Thanks RD...I try to be slow and deliberate on purpose...my wife cautions me on becoming an old bitter man but to count my blessings. Religion is a personal belief and its not always an earth moving experience...but experiences intimate to the believer. Its sad that systematically authority has been shaken/dismissed/despised...and then we wonder mainly to ourselves...what is wrong with the world today? Usually it's a perspective with plenty of input from life's experiences. I liked a quote attributed to Winston Churchill (If you are in your 20's and your not a liberal...you haven't got a heart. If you are in your 30's and your not a conservative then you haven't got a brain)

Capital riots...was this a drunken rabble? Were these a group of criminally insane? ...stricken with mental health issues?...or was this a problem common to all demonstrations/riots that sprung from deeply released beliefs? ... and emotions unchecked can lead to a life of their own? The right to protest by peaceable demonstration is enjoyed by many democracies...but police need to be vigilant because the transformation to a dangerous/ugly crowd is often sudden. Our right to protest is what allows a crowd to get within striking distance.

This same type of crowd could have existed a few years earlier when the burning of the American flag became "protected freedom of speech"...would a protest then been labeled as a cult of loonies? How far can it be expected to have core beliefs/traditions trampled under foot? ...and the constant espousing of conspiracy theories... doesn't add to wide swept paranoia? The respect and admiration that followed us through both world wars was earned by our own blood spilled on foreign soil evoked fear in those who chose to make us their enemy. Vietnam removed some of that luster ...we weren't united as a country in that war...the objective wasn't obvious.

Voting irregularities? Where was the outrage then when Al Gore phoned in his concession congratulating Mr. Bush...then immediately calling back shortly after to inform he was told "Florida was still in play?" Once Mr. Bush realized the concession was being withdrawn he was angry...Mr. Gore's response "Don't get snipity with me"...that was relayed to the world...some kind of shananigans with voting was occurring...and our "black eye" was hard to hide as the Florida debacle ebbed out into a lengthy news cycle. Was Mr. Gore going to overturn an election...no...but the result threw our whole voting process into question...hanging chad? discerning voter intent? ...this process which had served us so well...was suddenly heavily flawed? A convincing(?) argument on Mr.Gores side was the voters were confused by a butterfly ballot...not sure where to put a large x...flowery insults implying the American voters in Florida were stupid. Why did absentee ballots only apply to US citizens out of country? The ballot had special rules to ensure the sanctity of the vote because the ballots were not going directly to a box monitored at a voting center...the delivery/transport and final arrival for counting gave opportunity for altering results prior to their actual count. A few more opinions later...

[RiverDog]

I liked a quote attributed to Winston Churchill (If you are in your 20's and your not a liberal...you haven't got a heart. If you are in your 30's and your not a conservative then you haven't got a brain)

Ahh, Churchill, next to Yogi Berra, my favorite guy to quote. "Churchill, you're drunk!" screamed his significant other. "Yes, I am!", responded Churchill. "And you're ugly. But in the morning, I'll be sober!"

Capital riots...was this a drunken rabble? Were these a group of criminally insane? ...stricken with mental health issues?...or was this a problem common to all demonstrations/riots that sprung from deeply released beliefs? ... and emotions unchecked can lead to a life of their own? The right to protest by peaceable demonstration is enjoyed by many democracies...but police need to be vigilant because the transformation to a dangerous/ugly crowd is often sudden. Our right to protest is what allows a crowd to get within striking distance.

This same type of crowd could have existed a few years earlier when the burning of the American flag became "protected freedom of speech"...would a protest then been labeled as a cult of loonies? How far can it be expected to have core beliefs/traditions trampled under foot? ...and the constant espousing of conspiracy theories... doesn't add to wide swept paranoia? The respect and admiration that followed us through both world wars was earned by our own blood spilled on foreign soil evoked fear in those who chose to make us their enemy. Vietnam removed some of that luster ...we weren't united as a country in that war...the objective wasn't obvious.

The Capitol Riot (singular, not plural) was likely composed of all of the above attributes. Social media allowed them to congregate, to find common threads in each other.. We have to remember that this was just a couple thousand people taken from all corners of the nation. It's not as if it was a genuine ground swell rising like the Vietnam war protests, or more recently, the BLM riots.

Voting irregularities? Where was the outrage then when Al Gore phoned in his concession congratulating Mr. Bush...then immediately calling back shortly after to inform he was told "Florida was still in play?" Once Mr. Bush realized the concession was being withdrawn he was angry...Mr. Gore's response "Don't get snipity with me"...that was relayed to the world...some kind of shananigans with voting was occurring...and our "black eye" was hard to hide as the Florida debacle ebbed out into a lengthy news cycle. Was Mr. Gore going to overturn an election...no...but the result threw our whole voting process into question...hanging chad? discerning voter intent? ...this process which had served us so well...was suddenly heavily flawed? A convincing(?) argument on Mr.Gores side was the voters were confused by a butterfly ballot...not sure where to put a large x...flowery insults implying the American voters in Florida were stupid. Why did absentee ballots only apply to US citizens out of country? The ballot had special rules to ensure the sanctity of the vote because the ballots were not going directly to a box monitored at a voting center...the delivery/transport and final arrival for counting gave opportunity for altering results prior to their actual count. A few more opinions later...

Don't forget taking advantage of a poorly written voting law, later declared unconstitutional, that allowed Gore to cherry pick heavily Democratic precincts that were more likely to yield more votes in his column to recount and their objection to counting legitimately mailed overseas ballots that had an obviously mis-postmarked stamps as the date on them was still in the future since they were military personnel that tended to vote Republican. Endless recounts, the theory being to keep counting until they came up with a result that favored them. Sound familiar? Fast forward to 2020 and it's the same strategy that Trump used.

But Trump's antics make these transgressions pale in comparison. The 2020 election wasn't that close. There were 3 other elections in this millennium alone that were much closer(2000,2004, and 2016).

[tarlhawk]

But Trump's antics make these transgressions pale in comparison. The 2020 election wasn't that close. There were 3 other elections in this millennium alone that were much closer(2000,2004, and 2016).

Some contributing ideas : An independent political/election watchdog attends rallies from both sides every election cycle and leading up til election day were impressed at the voter turnout during Mr. Trumps rallies reporting back that they were larger than the previous election. On the other hand they reported President Biden's rallies were low in numbers and their energy level paled in comparison. Mr. Trump was getting no negative feedback and he was personally observing huge crowds. All signs pointed to an easy victory...even Mr. Obama had held off his full endorsement till much later than expected.

John Kerry had experienced a similar euphoria but for a different reason...exit polling from the battleground states were projecting he was going to take them...but there is a reason exit polling is unreliable. Many people don't seem to like being asked who they had voted for...and might say "I'm a democrat...of course I voted Kerry" With so many states going all "mail-in"...they eliminated that mistake of reading "tea leaves" (exit polling).

The voting machine (Dominion software)...this opinion has nothing to do with this past election but a personal observation. I was watching C-SPAN at random leading up to the 2016 election with Mrs. Clinton and when I had turned it on they had a machine on a table (soon found out it was a dominion voting system used in Mr. Obama's re-election). The C-SPAN host was talking to a man with basic programming skills...identified as not being a hacker. He explained they wanted to know the skill level required to gain access to data software. The man spent a short period of time before announcing he had gained access and found some disturbing data...actual results from the 2012 election cycle were still there but that software data should have been erased once the election was officially certified in 2012. Up until watching that show by accident I had never even been aware of Dominion or any concerns of software access. I watched the 2016 election to see if one side had performed much better than projected but the race had concluded with very close results. Pleased ...I never gave it another thought.

Surely all the assurances that data was audited and no irregularities were found worth reporting would give comfort...hackers are just nerds whose brains are on steroids right? China has a fully funded military branch dedicated to cyber attacks...and most likely we have people dedicated to cyber security. Hackers have held ultra security backed power grid sections "hostage"...only to disappear. Surely our election process...no longer paper backed by a wide scale...is safe. Major credit card hacks...discovered immediately? ...or weeks/months later? ...with vague warnings from card companies....we're not sure but your stored information may have been "compromised" due to a security breach. Does it take a cult follower to be concerned given the current reliance on cyber ware? Do I personally think this occurred? I have to trust our process...do I scoff at the notion our process might be vulnerable? ...I wish I could be easily dismissive. Even modern spies know paper is the safest/secure way of smuggling out sensitive information. Would a return to fully registered voting with paper ballots be worth the sanctity of our voting process?

[Hawktawk]

Thanks RD...I try to be slow and deliberate on purpose...my wife cautions me on becoming an old bitter man but to count my blessings. Religion is a personal belief and its not always an earth moving experience...but experiences intimate to the believer. Its sad that systematically authority has been shaken/dismissed/despised...and then we wonder mainly to ourselves...what is wrong with the world today? Usually it's a perspective with plenty of input from life's experiences. I liked a quote attributed to Winston Churchill (If you are in your 20's and your not a liberal...you haven't got a heart. If you are in your 30's and your not a conservative then you haven't got a brain)

Capital riots...was this a drunken rabble? Were these a group of criminally insane? ...stricken with mental health issues?...or was this a problem common to all demonstrations/riots that sprung from deeply released beliefs? ... and emotions unchecked can lead to a life of their own? The right to protest by peaceable demonstration is enjoyed by many democracies...but police need to be vigilant because the transformation to a dangerous/ugly crowd is often sudden. Our right to protest is what allows a crowd to get within striking distance.

This same type of crowd could have existed a few years earlier when the burning of the American flag became "protected freedom of speech"...would a protest then been labeled as a cult of loonies? How far can it be expected to have core beliefs/traditions trampled under foot? ...and the constant espousing of conspiracy theories... doesn't add to wide swept paranoia? The respect and admiration that followed us through both world wars was earned by our own blood spilled on foreign soil evoked fear in those who chose to make us their enemy. Vietnam removed some of that luster ...we weren't united as a country in that war...the objective wasn't obvious.

Voting irregularities? Where was the outrage then when Al Gore phoned in his concession congratulating Mr. Bush...then immediately calling back shortly after to inform he was told "Florida was still in play?" Once Mr. Bush realized the concession was being withdrawn he was angry...Mr. Gore's response "Don't get snipity with me"...that was relayed to the world...some kind of shananigans with voting was occurring...and our "black eye" was hard to hide as the Florida debacle ebbed out into a lengthy news cycle. Was Mr. Gore going to overturn an election...no...but the result threw our whole voting process into question...hanging chad? discerning voter intent? ...this process which had served us so well...was suddenly heavily flawed? A convincing(?) argument on Mr.Gores side was the voters were confused by a butterfly ballot...not sure where to put a large x...flowery insults implying the American voters in Florida were stupid. Why did absentee ballots only apply to US citizens out of country? The ballot had special rules to ensure the sanctity of the vote because the ballots were not going directly to a box monitored at a voting center...the delivery/transport and final arrival for counting gave opportunity for altering results prior to their actual count. A few more opinions later...

Come on man. here we go again trying to establish some sort of moral equivalency between protesters burning flags or BLM marching or whatever your insinuation is and a breach of the US capitol building while congress was certifying a really not even close election the loser had refused to concede. Trump and his allies pumped the Jan 6 rally for weeks, repeated it numerous times, "come to DC for a good time". Trumps actions during his presidency and after he was a lame duck loser and unto this day are evil and have destroyed America in ways that cant ever be undone. I expect bloodshed every cycle now, voter and election official intimidation, armed trumpanzees in the streets.

And did you really bring up Gore as a moral equivalency to Cheeto??? When Gore conceded after apparently losing Florida despite winning the popular vote quite handily the difference was a few thousand votes. When it closed to around 270 votes out of millions cast he picked up the phone and un conceded. After months of litigation winding up in the supreme court and being the loser on a purely partisan 5-4 vote in the scotus he stepped to the camera and graciously conceded. There was no violence.

And wanna talk rigged election? Jeb Bush was the governor and a leaked E mail revealed he had assured a republican elections official "ve have our veys" There were republican elections officials who designed confusing ballots for the predominately black areas of their constituency to the point thousands voted for Pat Buchanan accidently. Yeah it happened. Don't flower it over. Were voter intent truly honored It would have easily been carried by Gore and he and the party ate it knowing full well that was the fact. And there was outrage on the right throughout the entire process at his withdrawn concession of which I was solid member at the time.

Nixon had questions in 60. Romney in 2012 with ohio far off the polls in red areas. There have been questions at the polls many times but america settles it at the polls and in hindsight Gore was a model of an american patriot who got the shaft and did what was best for the country while still insuring he didn't actually win the one state that made all the difference that was historically close. The evil Trump said before the election as he jammed Barrett through after 40 million votes mostly against him had been cast already"we need her to decide the election". She was twice part of a 9-0 decision against him. Still he persisted and caused a riot. Still continuing the lie and fundraising, bolstered by soulless amoral political animals so repulsive as to make me sick pandering to this lie. maricopa county recount by a trump loyalist proved Biden won it even bigger than was thought. Other recounts led by R state officials are a partisan joke. R elections officials are being primaried, threatened, removed from committees. All over a lie to benefit an evil menially ill tiny man and get votes from his psycho supporters .. Trump loyalists cannot sweep this under the rug no matter how hard you try.

[RiverDog]

Come on man. here we go again trying to establish some sort of moral equivalency between protesters burning flags or BLM marching or whatever your insinuation is and a breach of the US capitol building while congress was certifying a really not even close election the loser had refused to concede. Trump and his allies pumped the Jan 6 rally for weeks, repeated it numerous times, "come to DC for a good time". Trumps actions during his presidency and after he was a lame duck loser and unto this day are evil and have destroyed America in ways that cant ever be undone. I expect bloodshed every cycle now, voter and election official intimidation, armed trumpanzees in the streets.

And did you really bring up Gore as a moral equivalency to Cheeto???

The behavior of the Democrats in 2000 and Trump in 2020 was not equal. They were on vastly different scales as Trump lost his election by a much wider margin and came up with unfounded claims of voter fraud. Gore never did anything close to what Trump tried. But they were comparable because they shared similar characteristics in that the Democrats used an unethical tactic of using a provision in the law that allowed them the ability to cherry pick heavily Democratic precincts that simple math dictated was likely to give them a favorable result. They were not interested in a full recount of the entire state or Republican leaning precincts. They went on a fishing expedition and tried to steal the election, and might have succeeded had the Supreme Court not stepped in and stopped the madness.

Like it or not, there some things about the BLM riots that were far worse than the Capitol riot. First, note the difference, plural vs. singular. The Capitol riot lasted a few hours, involved a couple thousand participants, and resulted in two deaths. The BLM riots lasted all summer, had hundreds of thousands of participants, and resulted in scores of deaths and millions of dollars worth of damaged property. At the very least, it's a worthy comparison.

[Hawktawk]

OMG RD not you now. There is no equivalency between the insurrection riot and a protest or even riots protesting a black man being killed on national tv. This as other officers who were in their first week of training watched a man with 18 previous complaints kill a handcuffed black man who pleaded for his life . Everyone got that .


And remember the chronology of events too. No riots . Then Floyd . Then as general Mattis said mostly peaceful protests . Then Jacob Blake takes 7 in the back . A little white suoremacist Trumpanzee drives across state lines and kills 2 white antifa protesters . As a matter of fact far more injuries and deaths were caused by groups like proud boys and oath keepers who stirred up violence as much as BLM or Antifa . Protesters surrounded the White House and some hoodlums started a fire at a church . The following day trump embarrassed about hiding in the basement does the fascist walk over to the church to hold up a Bible. He had stormtroopers in riot gear smash people holding signs and arrest 400 of them .

Seemed to me all hell broke loose after that and showed no sign of abating until
Trump was gone .

I understand it’s a nuanced position . I don’t support rioting over anything . But BLM and Antifa have a point . Trump starting a riot to stop his opponent from assuming the office of the presidency had no point , no right , his act was treason . His assault on elections officials were illegal . It’s being learned that the weak ass statement telling his rioters to go home “ we love you, you’re special , “ was the best his aides could get after numerous takes where he refused to criticize the riot at all. There’s is a reason they won’t comply with subpoenas from McCarthy on down .
There is no comparison between Antifa and BLM and a president who was up with my pillow guy contemplating declaring martial law the day before he left . The riot he caused and helped was part of an attempted coup.

[c_hawkbob]

OMG RD not you now. There is no equivalency between the insurrection riot and a protest or even riots protesting a black man being killed on national tv. This as other officers who were in their first week of training watched a man with 18 previous complaints kill a handcuffed black man who pleaded for his life . Everyone got that .


And remember the chronology of events too. No riots . Then Floyd . Then as general Mattis said mostly peaceful protests . Then Jacob Blake takes 7 in the back . A little white suoremacist Trumpanzee drives across state lines and kills 2 white antifa protesters . As a matter of fact far more injuries and deaths were caused by groups like proud boys and oath keepers who stirred up violence as much as BLM or Antifa . Protesters surrounded the White House and some hoodlums started a fire at a church . The following day trump embarrassed about hiding in the basement does the fascist walk over to the church to hold up a Bible. He had stormtroopers in riot gear smash people holding signs and arrest 400 of them .

Seemed to me all hell broke loose after that and showed no sign of abating until
Trump was gone .

I understand it’s a nuanced position . I don’t support rioting over anything . But BLM and Antifa have a point . Trump starting a riot to stop his opponent from assuming the office of the presidency had no point , no right , his act was treason . His assault on elections officials were illegal . It’s being learned that the weak ass statement telling his rioters to go home “ we love you, you’re special , “ was the best his aides could get after numerous takes where he refused to criticize the riot at all. There’s is a reason they won’t comply with subpoenas from McCarthy on down .
There is no comparison between Antifa and BLM and a president who was up with my pillow guy contemplating declaring martial law the day before he left . The riot he caused and helped was part of an attempted coup.

Agree completely! I'm sick to death of the revisionist false equivalences and comparative justifications regarding Jan 6th insurrection.

[RiverDog]

OMG RD not you now. There is no equivalency between the insurrection riot and a protest ...

Where was it that I said that there was an equivalency? I did not equate the two. I simply noted some of the differences and some things that they had in common. IMO an insurrection was worse, psychologically and to our reputation and moral authority as a nation, than summer long riots as it goes to the core of our democracy. That's not to say that the BLM riots weren't bad. Both events were unprecedented, both ugly, both disgusting, both poorly handled by law enforcement and politicians, and both happened during a pandemic of which I believe to be an underlying cause of both incidents.

They occurred within 6-8 months of each other. Of course, people are going to compare them. It doesn't mean that I consider them to be equal.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's not a matter of equivalency. It's that some of you don't give a flying crap when some group takes over six city blocks, completely ignores the insane behavior of some of these socialists and anarchists who did this, and these leftists politicians like Kshawa Sawant who want violent socialist revolution and has publicly stated she wants the government to take over Amazon.

C-bob literally pretends these people don't exist. That they're just made up for political reasons. Even when there is video of this person and these people doing what is stated they did like taking over a police precinct, setting up boundaries keeping out police and emergency services, and enacting their own laws until someone was killed and the idiot Seattle Mayor Jenny "Summer of Love" Durkan had to act to get the situation under control. They're now being sued by the parents of the person killed.

Not to mention the immense and constant property damage including robbery that occurred in Seattle during these protests. It was terrible and completely downplayed by Democrats and their supporters.

The main equivalency here is Republicans are downplaying the Capitol Riots while Democrats downplay all the bad behavior by left wing radicals that occurred during the BLM protests where every outraged leftist group hopped on to this protest pushing their own agenda. So you can all play the moral outrage card all you want, but as long as you keep making excuses for crappy, destructive behavior claiming moral superiority as your excuse and other such garbage, then you have no reason to expect anyone to accept the explanations of the other side.

If you're not against this type of behavior on a city level based on politics, no reasons other side should be any different on a national level.

These viewpoints are based purely on political division. You get to dismiss the other side based on what side of the political divide they are on. That's just rubbish.

[RiverDog]

The main equivalency here is Republicans are downplaying the Capitol Riots while Democrats downplay all the bad behavior by left wing radicals that occurred during the BLM protests where every outraged leftist group hopped on to this protest pushing their own agenda. So you can all play the moral outrage card all you want, but as long as you keep making excuses for crappy, destructive behavior claiming moral superiority as your excuse and other such garbage, then you have no reason to expect anyone to accept the explanations of the other side.

If you're not against this type of behavior on a city level based on politics, no reasons other side should be any different on a national level.

These viewpoints are based purely on political division. You get to dismiss the other side based on what side of the political divide they are on. That's just rubbish.

Nailed it! Not much more I can add to that.

[tarlhawk]

This remains an emotionally charged issue which is how the media sells/panders to both sides. An insurrection that allows itself to be arrested? Some of the rioters were armed yet not a single hostage or person shot except by a police officer under duress. The police force defending can't be portrayed as inept yet at the same time able to put down an "insurrection"...which version allows some truth? Our demonstration/riot history has plenty of examples of quick elevation into mob mentality that takes a very ugly turn. A real insurrection threatens to overtake a government...utilizes military elements...if not the military itself. An insurrection involves tragic bloodshed on both sides until deadly force puts down the insurrection. Some point out chants of killing this person...hanging that person...as if they didn't know any of this was being filmed? Has reality shows fooled so many people that they think they are seeing real reactions...not people who are fully aware that cameras are hoping. Whoever distorted the poor officers death the next day as a result of being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher should be held accountable. Its tragic enough the high charged atmosphere no doubt contributed to his heart attacks ruled a natural death by the examining coroner. ...and a coups without gunfire. This riot had ugly results enough without elevating it as a coups/insurrection. Not trying to temper your anger but save it for when real raw emotions fueled by inflammatory media coverage put our country at peril...this isn't uniting our country against a common threat from an external enemy...this is dividing our country on a large scale...politically/morally/racially/socially and open class warfare...this internal danger is very real.

[RiverDog]

This remains an emotionally charged issue which is how the media sells/panders to both sides. An insurrection that allows itself to be arrested? Some of the rioters were armed yet not a single hostage or person shot except by a police officer under duress. The police force defending can't be portrayed as inept yet at the same time able to put down an "insurrection"...which version allows some truth? Our demonstration/riot history has plenty of examples of quick elevation into mob mentality that takes a very ugly turn. A real insurrection threatens to overtake a government...utilizes military elements...if not the military itself. An insurrection involves tragic bloodshed on both sides until deadly force puts down the insurrection. Some point out chants of killing this person...hanging that person...as if they didn't know any of this was being filmed? Has reality shows fooled so many people that they think they are seeing real reactions...not people who are fully aware that cameras are hoping. Whoever distorted the poor officers death the next day as a result of being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher should be held accountable. Its tragic enough the high charged atmosphere no doubt contributed to his heart attacks ruled a natural death by the examining coroner. ...and a coups without gunfire. This riot had ugly results enough without elevating it as a coups/insurrection. Not trying to temper your anger but save it for when real raw emotions fueled by inflammatory media coverage put our country at peril...this isn't uniting our country against a common threat from an external enemy...this is dividing our country on a large scale...politically/morally/racially/socially and open class warfare...this internal danger is very real.

It's hard to tell what might have happened had the rioters caught up with Nancy Pelosi or Mike Pence. Some had large zip ties that are used by law enforcement as handcuffs. What was their intent? Would they have actually executed one or more of them? Testimony as to intent, taken today in a much more sterile, benign atmosphere, is largely irrelevant as mobs take on a personality of their own. Who can say what they would or wouldn't have done? People get caught up in the heat of the moment and do things that they would have never had dreamed of had they been left to their own devices. We'll never know what would have happened had the Capitol police not guided the lawmakers to shelter in place. It could have gotten real ugly.

For the reasons you state, it wasn't an attempt to overthrow the government. It was an attempt to interfere with the Constitutional process of certifying an election. That's bad enough. Every participant that crossed that fence needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and treated as a domestic terrorist.

[Aseahawkfan]

The bigger concern is why are so many people in America regardless of the political side so dissatisfied with the country that they are willing to rip it apart whether ripping apart cities or the nation's Capitol. This is a recipe for some very bad times if all we need are a few matches and these two sides are ready to kill each other.

I hope we can get some leadership in the future to reduce this hostility. I'm hoping once the pandemic is farther in the review mirror the stress and cabin fever that drove all this crazy will dissipate and we can get back to our usual level of hostility where most of these matters are settled with scathing words, sarcasm, wit, and verbal outrage with some protesting. Not the level of violent lunacy we saw in the last few years.

[tarlhawk]

I can't offer more than an opinion...It got ugly because they got in too easily. The intent is what is unknown...how much stuff was meant to be visual? I do not support the making of a mob...the atmosphere surely got charged but the violence stayed more mob like and less like any elevated violence. The timing was definitely meant to draw media coverage as votes were being certified. Anger is enough to evoke fear...you don't need weapon use/violence. The zip ties / chants and lack of any real movement once inside seems to draw more creedence as wanting to be seen and heard. A real insurrection would have been better organized to take advantage of the lack of initial response from the Capital Police...and would have targeted actual locations. The mob once inside didn't seem to have any direction in mind as if content in resisting arrest knowing the police were also aware of being filmed and would only use necessary force to subdue and arrest. The woman shot and killed was a result of creating a highly charged atmosphere putting the police under high stress/duress.

[RiverDog]

I can't offer more than an opinion...It got ugly because they got in too easily. The intent is what is unknown...how much stuff was meant to be visual? I do not support the making of a mob...the atmosphere surely got charged but the violence stayed more mob like and less like any elevated violence. The timing was definitely meant to draw media coverage as votes were being certified. Anger is enough to evoke fear...you don't need weapon use/violence. The zip ties / chants and lack of any real movement once inside seems to draw more creedence as wanting to be seen and heard. A real insurrection would have been better organized to take advantage of the lack of initial response from the Capital Police...and would have targeted actual locations. The mob once inside didn't seem to have any direction in mind as if content in resisting arrest knowing the police were also aware of being filmed and would only use necessary force to subdue and arrest. The woman shot and killed was a result of creating a highly charged atmosphere putting the police under high stress/duress.

Maybe, but neither you nor I know that. What we do know is that they breached a security perimeter, forcibly entered a building, assaulted officers that eventually lead to the death of one, were armed and in a position to commit murder. A mob like that is extremely unpredictable. We could have ended up with a couple of swinging bodies at the end of a noose.

[tarlhawk]

What we do know is that they breached a security perimeter, forcibly entered a building, assaulted officers that eventually lead to the death of one, were armed and in a position to commit murder. A mob like that is extremely unpredictable. We could have ended up with a couple of swinging bodies at the end of a noose.

Upon reflection I read over some of my comments concerning this sad series of events and felt that a person not knowing me...would think I was excusing the actions that took place...which is far from my intent...they didn't seem organized enough to be a true insurrection but if they were of a mind to think that's what they were effecting then that alone makes it an act to be made an example of. If anyone felt I actually supported any of what occurred...I do not. Our nation's capitol should be considered inviolate and there should be no confusing that.

[RiverDog]

Upon reflection I read over some of my comments concerning this sad series of events and felt that a person not knowing me...would think I was excusing the actions that took place...which is far from my intent...they didn't seem organized enough to be a true insurrection but if they were of a mind to think that's what they were effecting then that alone makes it an act to be made an example of. If anyone felt I actually supported any of what occurred...I do not. Our nation's capitol should be considered inviolate and there should be no confusing that.

No sweat. I can't speak for the others, but I didn't take your comments to be excusing the actions, rather more about the characterization of the riot as an insurrection. Technically, it wasn't. But I don't want to be accused of trying to trivialize it.

I fully agree with your conclusion. Those criminals need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Treat them like we would any other terrorist. Put them on a no fly list.

[c_hawkbob]

The position of devil's advocate for the sake of deeper inspection of a subject is not foreign to this forum either, that's where I assumed you were coming from.

Clarification is always welcome though, so thanks.

[Hawktawk]

I get a little excited hearing any linkage between BLM which spawns riots at times and the insurrection . There’s a reason bannon is holding out . His known statements on the evening before” tomorrow is game day, all hell will break lose . “ this was a planned organized event . Trumps comments during the speech “‘you gotta fight like hell or you’re gonna lose your country “ . Who knew what ? Who said what during the hours long assault . Thank God for Liz Cheney who lends legitimacy and courage and integrity to the process . God forbid the man should run again . He should be in prison right now .

[RiverDog]

I get a little excited hearing any linkage between BLM which spawns riots at times and the insurrection.

The two are inextricably linked. Both occurred within months of each other, both are political in nature, but each are owned by two competing ideologies at the extreme ends of the continuum. Whether they like it or not, the Republicans are associated with Trump, the Capitol riot/insurrection, stolen election myth, etc, while the Democrats are associated with the BLM riots, the anarchy in the summer of 2020, the defund the police movement, etc. If you're a Democrat, you'll react vociferously to the mere mentioning of the two in the same sentence and if you're a Republican, you'll try to trivialize the Capitol riot/insurrection by calling it something other than by the current reference.