Capitol Riot Investigation

[c_hawkbob]

You are literally the only person I know that thinks the two are inextricably linked. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

[RiverDog]

You are literally the only person I know that thinks the two are inextricably linked. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Then you haven't been talking to very many right wingers. Any time I mention the Capitol insurrection to a person with a conservative lean to them, the very first thing they bring up is the BLM riots. The comparisons are inevitable.

I don't know enough about the mindset of those that stormed the Capitol that would allow me to speak in absolutes like you do, but I do know that there was a lot of outrage from the right at the very tepid and sometimes embracement of the BLM riots and the defund the police movement by the left. It's very possible, perhaps even likely, that those events could have been part of the fodder that motivated those that participated in the insurrection. IMO you cannot say with absolute certainty that one has nothing to do with the other.

[NorthHawk]

From the outside looking in it appears that the BLM protests are a convenient reason for the insurrectionists to behave as they did.
The sources of both these actions are quite different IMO. BLM was a social protest regarding inequalities in society and the Capitol
riot was people trying to overturn the election. Those who rioted or support them might do so as to rationalize their actions.

[RiverDog]

From the outside looking in it appears that the BLM protests are a convenient reason for the insurrectionists to behave as they did.

Thanks for your insight. Although you do hold yourself on the liberal side of the spectrum, it's always nice to hear a perspective from someone outside the states looking in. I hope that you never hesitate to put in your two cents worth because you might feel it's none of your business.

I'm saying something very similar. If not a motivation for the insurrectionists themselves, at the very least, the BLM riots gave the right a means to displace criticism and change the narrative.
.

The sources of both these actions are quite different IMO. BLM was a social protest regarding inequalities in society and the Capitol riot was people trying to overturn the election. Those who rioted or support them might do so as to rationalize their actions.

BLM was more than a social protest. It was a springboard for every left wing lunatic and hoodlum that was looking for an excuse to riot and create a state of anarchy. One of its offspring, the defund the police movement that was embraced by the left, became a huge irritant for folks on the right. Indeed, it's likely to be a campaign issue in the 2022 midterms.

[tarlhawk]

I'm not sure the Capitol Riot group were the brightest...they would have accomplished more by staying peacefully encamped as they had started. I saw a reporters footage (I hadn't seen it before) that clearly showed you had a dozen or so aggravators making the atmosphere highly charged and dangerous. This investigators camera footage easily could have been the one that provided the ringleaders and others caught up by their rhetoric for the follow on investigation. The sources for both events are obviously different...but the common thread is that both are involving extremists who had inflamed viewpoints...if injustices are perceived then everyone should realize we are a nation of laws and our justice system can handle the issues. Instead we've allowed widespread distrust which in turn has led these extremists to take things into their own hands. Authority at many levels of our society has crumbled which sets the stage for the "fringe" elements of both political parties to threaten the mainstream hold on respect for our countries laws. Defund the police...at a time when crime has become emboldened to strike anywhere...night or day? This makes sense? The Capitol riot thought they could overturn an election? The votes were already cast...only being certified as a necessary process to have a peaceful transition in our political process which used to be admired by the world at large.

[RiverDog]

I'm not sure the Capitol Riot group were the brightest...they would have accomplished more by staying peacefully encamped as they had started. I saw a reporters footage (I hadn't seen it before) that clearly showed you had a dozen or so aggravators making the atmosphere highly charged and dangerous. This investigators camera footage easily could have been the one that provided the ringleaders and others caught up by their rhetoric for the follow on investigation. The sources for both events are obviously different...but the common thread is that both are involving extremists who had inflamed viewpoints...if injustices are perceived then everyone should realize we are a nation of laws and our justice system can handle the issues. Instead we've allowed widespread distrust which in turn has led these extremists to take things into their own hands. Authority at many levels of our society has crumbled which sets the stage for the "fringe" elements of both political parties to threaten the mainstream hold on respect for our countries laws. Defund the police...at a time when crime has become emboldened to strike anywhere...night or day? This makes sense? The Capitol riot thought they could overturn an election? The votes were already cast...only being certified as a necessary process to have a peaceful transition in our political process which used to be admired by the world at large.

You might not be sure that the Capitol riot group weren't the brightest, but I am. Same goes for the BLM rioters.

A lot of the protesters/insurrectionists literally came loaded for bear...cans of bear repellant, body armor, oversized zip strips, two way radios/headsets, baseball bats, hockey sticks, brass knuckles, etc. Just how many or what percentage of them were looking for trouble, I don't know. But it seemed to me to be more organized and violent agitators/antagonists in greater numbers than what you're making it out to be.

That's one of the differences between the Capitol riot and the BLM riots. The Capitol riot, although in far fewer numbers, in a localized area, and over a period of hours vs. months, was far more organized, equipped, and planned in advance. Even the CHAZ occupation in downtown Seattle wasn't near as organized and planned as the Capitol riot was.

[tarlhawk]

My point remains the same...I questioned their intelligence...by thinking they could affect the outcome of a race already decided...only the certification was taking place. The video I saw showed they were dangerous enough if the Capitol police hadn't moved the members of congress to safety...but alot of the video showed them camping out in the abandoned Senate...making a mockery of what was being desecrated...but Capitol police were present and seemed calm...asking them politely to leave the Senate chambers...most of it was a single officer who convinced them to finally gather up and leave the chambers. The video made it appear as if the police were using force sufficient for the threat being encountered.

[RiverDog]

My point remains the same...I questioned their intelligence...by thinking they could affect the outcome of a race already decided...only the certification was taking place.

Was that their motivation? Were they that stupid to think that a couple thousand of them could actually supplant Biden with Trump? Or were they making some sort of perverted statement? It's an honest question that I don't know the answer to.

The video I saw showed they were dangerous enough if the Capitol police hadn't moved the members of congress to safety...but alot of the video showed them camping out in the abandoned Senate...making a mockery of what was being desecrated...but Capitol police were present and seemed calm...asking them politely to leave the Senate chambers...most of it was a single officer who convinced them to finally gather up and leave the chambers. The video made it appear as if the police were using force sufficient for the threat being encountered.

I don't doubt your observations. But I've seen enough videos of the event and heard enough first hand testimony to convince me that at least some of it was an extremely violent confrontation that could have easily resulted in a lot worse spectacle than what we were treated to.

[NorthHawk]

The differences I saw was the rioters had some direction and coordination while the BLM protesters were an ad hoc group who
got a black eye (so to speak) from those who took advantage of the protest to further their own ends or outright criminality
with looting and burning etc. along with a few right wingnuts who fomented violence so as to make it look bad. We can see this
by looking at when the real problems occurred - mostly at night under the cover of darkness. The daytime protests were largely
peaceful in comparison.

Usurping the intent of unorganized protests is a common tactic by those who are organized, even slightly so. Something as small
as the Occupy Wall St. was an unorganized coming together of people across the political spectrum to say that capitalism isn't working
for them, but it was taken over by slightly organized leftists and anarchists. The result was that the original intent was lost and
the feeling was the protesters were just a bunch of lazy layabouts when in fact the original protest was a coming together of Tea Partiers
and left wing Democrats along with some other ordinary citizens. Unfortunately their message was then lost on Wall St. and society.
There wasn't much violence in the Occupy Wall St. protests, but the takeover was the same. You don't see that much when protests
are organized as those types are weeded out and/or identified as not being part of the cause.

[RiverDog]

The differences I saw was the rioters had some direction and coordination while the BLM protesters were an ad hoc group who
got a black eye (so to speak) from those who took advantage of the protest to further their own ends or outright criminality
with looting and burning etc. along with a few right wingnuts who fomented violence so as to make it look bad. We can see this
by looking at when the real problems occurred - mostly at night under the cover of darkness. The daytime protests were largely
peaceful in comparison.

That's how I saw it, too, which is one of the things that amazes me about these big cities like Portland and Seattle that were wracked with protests night after nigh during the summer of 2020. Why not allow permitted and peaceful demonstrations during the day then issue a strict curfew at 8pm, call out the national guard if necessary to enforce it?

[tarlhawk]

Using fellow protesters for cover for their true intentions seemed apparent in the video...while the police were involved in clashes/skirmishes with the bulk of protesters...the other aggrivators were running down halls looking for targets of opportunity...upset that the members had been moved to safety. It was ugly with potential to get worse as "ring leaders" tried to incite them further..."we are making history"..."we got 4 million more protesters coming in behind us"...yelling at demonstrators who were leaving "your going the wrong way...come back...this is an historical moment.

[NorthHawk]

There were stories of an organized attack during the riot where some people were looking for specific things in offices. Many were also using military tactics
to gain entry and attack police. This was completely opposite from the BLM protesters who were just a bunch of people demonstrating for a common cause with no other goal
in mind nor other objective other than to peacefully express their frustrations with the status quo. As well, all of the Capitol rioters were there to overthrow the election, even
those that stayed outside and didn't interact with the Police.

[Hawktawk]

Exactly North. Many groups involved in Jan 6 moved in tactical formations and had specific targets . Some were allowed access to the building prior to the 6 th by Republican congresspeople and their aides for that matter. It’s similar to BLM etc in one way. Both are riots . With BLM the overwhelming majority of protesters were peaceful . With Jan 6 all were wrong . All were advocating overturning the will of the American people . There has never been anything like it .

[RiverDog]

Exactly North. Many groups involved in Jan 6 moved in tactical formations and had specific targets . Some were allowed access to the building prior to the 6 th by Republican congresspeople and their aides for that matter. It’s similar to BLM etc in one way. Both are riots . With BLM the overwhelming majority of protesters were peaceful . With Jan 6 all were wrong . All were advocating overturning the will of the American people . There has never been anything like it .

Considering the numbers of demonstrators that participated in BLM demonstrations during the summer of 2020, to say that the "overwhelming majority of protesters were peaceful" is grossly misleading and constitutes an attempt to trivialize the incidents where violence broke out. The fact is that there were HUNDREDS of BLM protests that turned violent:

But contrary to the narrative and according to a new study from Princeton University, over the past four months hundreds of "protests" have turned into violent, destructive riots.

Princeton University group studies 3 months of Black Lives Matter protests. Intent is to show they are 'overwhelmingly peaceful.' But report reveals nearly 570 violent demonstrations--riots--in nearly 220 locations spread all across country.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavl ... t-n2575801

https://acleddata.com/acleddatanew/wp-c ... WebPDF.pdf

If someone were to come out and say that the overwhelming majority of Covid cases are not lethal and attempt to use that fact to trivialize the disease, you'd go ballistic.

[Hawktawk]

My point is what percentage of people in these demonstrations were involved in violence I g . I don’t condone violence unless it’s opposing violence . And again nobody wants to talk about organizations like proud boys and oath keepers who spawned and spurred on additional violence . They were responsible for more firearm deaths over the summer of Trump than all those BLM protesters . One recebtky pled guilty to shooting up
A Minnesota police station with a kalashnakov to blame it on BLM. It’s a more complicated situation with people protesting George Floyd which totally made every black protesting police brutality 100% right . I’ll hand them a couple mulligans on their behavior . Hooligans supporting a loser defeated president trying to interrupt the vote of the congress is so much worse . The worst thing ever other than an assassination . Maybe wirse than that .

[RiverDog]

My point is what percentage of people in these demonstrations were involved in violence

And my point is that given the huge size of the BLM demonstrations and the relatively small size of the Capitol riot, using percentages is extremely misleading. All you're doing is re-iterating a Democratic talking point and playing into their narrative that is meant to distract attention away from their non reaction to the ugly side of BLM, their embracing of the defund the police movement, and law and order issues in general, and re-focus it on the Republican's black eye, Capitol riot. Your using percentages to argue that the BLM riots wasn't as bad as the Capitol riot plays right into the Democrat's political gamesmanship.

I don’t condone violence unless it’s opposing violence . And again nobody wants to talk about organizations like proud boys and oath keepers who spawned and spurred on additional violence . They were responsible for more firearm deaths over the summer of Trump than all those BLM protesters.

Yeah, and my step sister is uglier than yours. I don't know what the relative carnage between Proud Boys and the BLM riots are, nor do I care. They are both examples of violent and lawless behavior that both should have been put down immediately and with overwhelming force. And who says that "nobody" wants to talk about Proud Boys. I'll talk about them any time you like.

One recebtky pled guilty to shooting up. A Minnesota police station with a kalashnakov to blame it on BLM.

Yes, there was a lot of situations where white supremacy and Pro Trump groups used the BLM riots as cover for them to stage their own violent acts and use them to paint BLM as the bad guy. But if you will track the dates of the WSG's involvement, it was a number of weeks, if not months, after the politicians had shown that they were going to allow the BLM rioters to operate freely when Proud Boys and others started getting involved. Take a look at when the incident you referred to happened: Late October 2020:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/boogaloo ... e1fb616689

IMO it was the politicians, almost exclusively Democrat politicians, non reaction to the BLM riots that enabled the white supremacy groups like Proud Boys. If they see that the police and National Guard aren't responding, why not go in and give those folks some of their own medicine?, or so the thinking goes. They saw an opportunity to advance their cause and took advantage of it.

[NorthHawk]

And my point is that given the huge size of the BLM demonstrations and the relatively small size of the Capitol riot, using percentages is extremely misleading. All you're doing is re-iterating a Democratic talking point and playing into their narrative that is meant to distract attention away from their non reaction to the ugly side of BLM, their embracing of the defund the police movement, and law and order issues in general, and re-focus it on the Republican's black eye, Capitol riot. Your using percentages to argue that the BLM riots wasn't as bad as the Capitol riot plays right into the Democrat's political gamesmanship.

But also the BLM protests generally did not include those causing the burning, looting, and violence that ensued. It was simply a platform for those with their own agenda to take advantage of the situation.
So percentages (probably impossible to find out) would be a valuable piece of information. I would suggest to you that even if the protests were Librarians Against Censorship, there would be people
taking the same advantage to further their own cause whether it was personal gain by looting, or more of a political endeavor like the White Supremacists and such. So to conflate the two with the BLM
protests falls into the Republicans political gamesmanship. And we saw it by how it was presented and emphasized by the right wing media as a BLM issue, and not a separate violence issue.

[RiverDog]

And my point is that given the huge size of the BLM demonstrations and the relatively small size of the Capitol riot, using percentages is extremely misleading. All you're doing is re-iterating a Democratic talking point and playing into their narrative that is meant to distract attention away from their non reaction to the ugly side of BLM, their embracing of the defund the police movement, and law and order issues in general, and re-focus it on the Republican's black eye, Capitol riot. Your using percentages to argue that the BLM riots wasn't as bad as the Capitol riot plays right into the Democrat's political gamesmanship.

But also the BLM protests generally did not include those causing the burning, looting, and violence that ensued. It was simply a platform for those with their own agenda to take advantage of the situation. So percentages (probably impossible to find out) would be a valuable piece of information.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that at all. A study by two liberal organizations, ACLED and Princeton University, concluded that 7% of the BLM protests were not peaceful.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/04/us/blm-p ... index.html

I agree that percentages are useful information, but that's not my point. My point is that they need to be put in context. If I were to say that less than 1% of Covid cases in the US results in death, that doesn't sound like a lot until you put it in context of representing over 700,000 deaths.

I would suggest to you that even if the protests were Librarians Against Censorship, there would be people taking the same advantage to further their own cause whether it was personal gain by looting, or more of a political endeavor like the White Supremacists and such. So to conflate the two with the BLM protests falls into the Republicans political gamesmanship. And we saw it by how it was presented and emphasized by the right wing media as a BLM issue, and not a separate violence issue.

If Librarians Against Censorship protests were as large as BLM and had it occurred in major metropolitan downtown areas with a lot of targets of opportunity, then probably. But again, that's not the point here. The point is that BLM spawned a very large number of violent demonstrations that were not reacted to and put down. 7% of the millions that participated is a very significant number.

BTW, who are you referring to as "we"? Are you speaking for all Canadians? All liberals? All viewers?

[Hawktawk]

7 % is a low number compared to 60 million people or about 75% of the Republican Party that support the big lie and defend jan 6 and the entire unamerican plan to steal an election. Far worse and more damaging than race protests that have gone on for 6 decades I’m aware of turned violent on the fringe .


And in these liberal cesspools like Portland and Seattle there’s just nihilistic anarchists rioting to riot , not really any cause and in many places police are beginning to say F it let it burn such as Portland where approximately 500 people decided to go down a city block breaking windows and lighting fires and police didn’t even respond citing new rules of engagement and limits on crowd control measures . In many cases it’s a bogus ploy by officers who want zero oversight of their conduct. But taking away things like pepper spray and rubber bullets , I don’t know the answer . Fir me it’s you riot you get months in prison and if it’s full build a tent . It would stop .

[RiverDog]

7 % is a low number compared to 60 million people or about 75% of the Republican Party that support the big lie and defend jan 6 and the entire unamerican plan to steal an election. Far worse and more damaging than race protests that have gone on for 6 decades I’m aware of turned violent on the fringe .

7% isn't a number, it's a percentage. And no one's talking about political parties or stop the steal, we're talking about riot participants.

And in these liberal cesspools like Portland and Seattle there’s just nihilistic anarchists rioting to riot , not really any cause and in many places police are beginning to say F it let it burn such as Portland where approximately 500 people decided to go down a city block breaking windows and lighting fires and police didn’t even respond citing new rules of engagement and limits on crowd control measures . In many cases it’s a bogus ploy by officers who want zero oversight of their conduct. But taking away things like pepper spray and rubber bullets , I don’t know the answer . Fir me it’s you riot you get months in prison and if it’s full build a tent . It would stop .

Oh, I agree that they're just nihilistic anarchists rioting to riot. But again, that's not the point. The point is that the riots, no matter what their cause or objective, were never reacted to and are being trivialized by you and the left...if there is a difference between you and the left...when constantly referring to percentages rather than actual numbers. As I told North Hawk, it's the same tactic that some people are using to trivialize Covid when comparing its death rate to that of the flu. Percentages don't always tell the story and can be extremely misleading.

IMO the answer was to limit the peaceful protests to specific areas and times, call out the National Guard to enforce it if necessary, and certainly don't take away non lethal tools like tear gas and pepper spray. But instead, the liberal politicians that held the reigns of power were completely paralyzed and didn't do anything. IMO the reason they didn't was pure politics, that they didn't want to offend a major voting constituency of theirs, the very same reason why Trump didn't do anything to stop the Capitol riot. That's one of the similarities between the two events.

[c_hawkbob]

Jeezus Riv, the sh!t you'll "correct" people over! 7% is absolutely a number! Any percentage is by definition a number! "7% is a small number" is completely proper phraseology, and factually correct in this context as well.

[Hawktawk]

What the hell are you talking about me trivializing the protests . I’m saying any linkage or comparison to an attempted coup is wrong and the Trumpanzee bases talking point and as such I refuse to accept it. Thread is titled capitol riot investigation . The riots were bad, made far worse and extended by trumps and his skin head folowers . I can’t understand why the people weren’t prosecuted more fully but again, cops many of whom are indeed racist bigoted abusive corrupt cops use it to their advantage too. Not most but many . Way less then the 99.9% good cops crowd wants to say. You seem to minimize George Floyd .

[RiverDog]

Jeezus Riv, the sh!t you'll "correct" people over! 7% is absolutely a number! Any percentage is by definition a number! "7% is a small number" is completely proper phraseology, and factually correct in this context as well.

It's not a number in the way it's being used. There's a difference between raw numbers and percentages just like there's a difference between a number and a ratio.

If somebody used a percentage of lethal cases of Covid to represent the deaths it has caused, would you object?

[RiverDog]

What the hell are you talking about me trivializing the protests.

Because you continue to use percentages to define participation. Start using raw numbers, as in 570 violent demonstrations related to BLM, at least 25 people killed, and an estimates of $1-$2 billion in property damage, then I'll quit telling you that you're trivializing it. You're buying into the Democratic narrative, not wanting to attach numbers to the story and instead talking in terms of percentages.

I’m saying any linkage or comparison to an attempted coup is wrong and the Trumpanzee bases talking point and as such I refuse to accept it. Thread is titled capitol riot investigation . The riots were bad, made far worse and extended by trumps and his skin head folowers . I can’t understand why the people weren’t prosecuted more fully but again, cops many of whom are indeed racist bigoted abusive corrupt cops use it to their advantage too. Not most but many . Way less then the 99.9% good cops crowd wants to say. You seem to minimize George Floyd .

Comparisons are inevitable. They happened less than 6 months apart, both were violent or turned violent, and both were lethal, disgraceful, and embarrassing as a nation. As far as linkage goes, I have not made the claim that a motivating factor of the Capitol riot was the BLM riots because I simply don't know what all motivated the Capitol rioters. However, it damn sure is being used as a justification (a croc of chit justification IMO) by the right as I've debated with friends of mine that are firmly on the right.

You're going to have to show me how many of the 570 violent BLM riots were made "far worse and extended" by "Trump's skin head followers". A hundred of them? 200? I know that there were some, mostly late in the summer and fall of 2020 like the one in MN that you referenced earlier and after the politicians showed that they weren't going to act to stop them, but how many I haven't seen. Where are you getting your information? Or is it simply a perception of yours?

Where and what was it that I said anything about racist cops or George Floyd? In the same breath, you lectured me about the "Capitol Riot Investigation" thread title, did you not? Why is it that George Floyd and racist cops are now part of the topic but the BLM riots aren't?

[tarlhawk]

With Jan 6 all were wrong . All were advocating overturning the will of the American people . There has never been anything like it .

Never been anything like it? I'm guessing you've forgotten California's Prop 8 passage by the people voting on it...being upheld by both the 9th Circuit of appeals and the California State Supreme Court...only to have all over-ruled by a California Federal Judge.

Proposition 8 [1] Choice Votes %
Referendum passed Yes 7,001,084 52.24
No 6,401,482 47.76
Valid votes 13,402,566 97.52
Invalid or blank votes 340,611 2.48
Total votes 13,743,177 100.00

[c_hawkbob]

Prop 8 was nothing at all like Jan 6th. Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.

[RiverDog]

Prop 8 was nothing at all like Jan 6th. Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.

I agree. Prop 8 is not a valid comparison given the subject matter of this thread. The issue is violent, lawless behavior that involves, among other things, death and destruction.

[Hawktawk]

Sigh …..no Tarihawk there’s no comparison between an attempted coup to take the us presidency and overturn the will of the American people . An Cc RD I brought up Floyd because you keep harping on these race protests , well a man being killed in handcuffs by a smirking officer with 18 complaints including breaking bones in the face of a 17 year old and kneeling on his neck for 17 minutes while he was cuffed . There were no protests before that . Yet many on the right defended that cop and a huge metropolitan police force using this man to train rookies in their first week on the job . It’s when I understood BLM has a point . 200 protests worth ? No. Do I advocate violence by anyone . No. But there is no similarity whatsoever between an attempted coup of which the insurrection was only a small part albeit the most deadly and protests of the murder of a black man at the hands of a corrupt police force . I just read yesterday about a police captain in Miami with 25 counts of misconduct and the union is so strong they can’t get rid of him even now . BLM has a point . Trump had no point . And if you think his fascist walk across Lafayette square with riot cops using shields to smash peaceful black people with signs didn’t turbo the protest you weren’t paying attention. It became a protest of trump at that point . No comparison other than trump caused one and made one wirse . I’m done I’ll focus on the coup investigation here .

[tarlhawk]

Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.

I wasn't comparing the two...I was addressing the focused overturning of the American peoples will...our constitution has guided our country for how long before we found it flawed (by not being specific about defining what societies much older than our own have always accepted) I am losing hope in our country standing up for anything.

Each generation tries to defend the best from the generations that preceded it...we can't identify our own enemies because they look like us. The riots were violent and many seemed caught up without the common sense to understand being manipulated still involves giving up your own will. We pick and choose what we want to call wrong...this event was easy to identify as wrong and violent and we still understand that punishment must be swift and sure to deter any future attacks.

There was no chance this event would overturn our election. Military tactics for an organized riot with vain ambitions...sure...but a coups? We are able to exert our military power anywhere in the world except our own capitol...is this the message we want to send to the rest of the world? It was a riot turned ugly that was put down by the Capitol's police force.

[RiverDog]

Very weak comparison. One was a federal judges ruling on the constitutionality of a state amendment, the other an attempted violent reversal of a presidential election. Zero comparability.

I wasn't comparing the two...I was addressing the focused overturning of the American peoples will...our constitution has guided our country for how long before we found it flawed (by not being specific about defining what societies much older than our own have always accepted) I am losing hope in our country standing up for anything.

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree with your comparison. One involves a legally challenged law, the other an overturning by force. Surely you can find a better analogy.

In regard to losing hope for standing up for anything, I'm the exact opposite. I'm worried about individuals are standing up for anything and everything that doesn't go our way, that we're hypersensitive to every perceived slight, that we're not compliant enough, that there's too little trust in our institutions. Our collective response to the pandemic is my greatest example.

There was no chance this event would overturn our election. Military tactics for an organized riot with vain ambitions...sure...but a coups? We are able to exert our military power anywhere in the world except our own capitol...is this the message we want to send to the rest of the world? It was a riot turned ugly that was put down by the Capitol's police force.

I agree with most of that, but I can't speak to the motivations of the rioters as to whether or not they truly believed that they could influence the outcome of the election. You have to be somewhat mentally deranged just to participate in something like that in the first place.

[tarlhawk]

And if you think his fascist walk across Lafayette square with riot cops using shields to smash peaceful black people with signs didn’t turbo the protest you weren’t paying attention. It became a protest of trump at that point .

This incident was investigated by the nation's IG (Inspector General) and his report found no link to the clearing being ordered by Mr. Trump but already a plan in motion to allow contractors a safe environment for installing Barrier fencing after three nights of heightened violence. His finding of the peaceful crowd differs a bit from your own conclusion.

The report says protests on May 30 and 31 "were mostly peaceful during the day," but that "acts of violence increased in the late afternoon and evenings," and that "officers reported that some protesters threw projectiles, such as bricks, rocks, caustic liquids, frozen water bottles, glass bottles, lit flares, rental scooters, and fireworks, at law enforcement officials."

A total of 49 Park Police officers were injured during the protests from May 29 to May 31, including one who underwent surgery, the report says.

Historic statues in Lafayette Square, were vandalized with graffiti, and on May 31, the park's comfort station was set on fire, the report says. A fire was also set in the basement at St. John's Church on May 31, and nearby stores and businesses were looted, the report adds.

[tarlhawk]

but I can't speak to the motivations of the rioters as to whether or not they truly believed that they could influence the outcome of the election. You have to be somewhat mentally deranged just to participate in something like that in the first place.

The crime goes beyond motivations...an example...two men plan a bank robbery...actually entering the bank with concealed weapons. Upon spotting an armed security guard watching them...they get cold feet and begin to leave. The security guard stops them on suspicion and asks them if they are armed with his hand on his own gun. They tell him they are...what crime has been committed legally? Possession of firearms in a restricted area for concealed weapons? ...or attempted armed robbery?

[RiverDog]

The crime goes beyond motivations...an example...two men plan a bank robbery...actually entering the bank with concealed weapons. Upon spotting an armed security guard watching them...they get cold feet and begin to leave. The security guard stops them on suspicion and asks them if they are armed with his hand on his own gun. They tell him they are...what crime has been committed legally? Possession of firearms in a restricted area for concealed weapons? ...or attempted armed robbery?

I'm not talking about the technicalities of what kind of crime the perps of the Capitol riot should be charged with. At least for me, the question is whether or not we should be referring to the event as an insurrection, a riot, a civil disturbance, etc. In order for me to conclude that it was an insurrection, I would have to know what the motivation of the participants was. If a high enough number of participants genuinely believed that they could overturn the election by their actions on Jan. 6th, then I could agree with it being characterized as an insurrection. If they were simply making a statement, protesting the "steal," or whatever, then probably not.

That's why you often see me referring it to a "riot/insurrection", because I don't know what the primary motivating factor was.

[NorthHawk]

I think it can be said that some or maybe most of those that entered the building did so in the hopes of changing the election results and maybe harming Members of Congress as an added bonus.
Those that stayed outside may have had the same feelings of this being a patriotic act but were unwilling to take the next step. It seems that many have been brainwashed (for a lack of a better
term) into thinking that they would be some kind of hero if they were able to re-instate Trump as President and that they were challenging rigged election results. So, there were some that were
there to create havoc, but those inside were probably insurrectionists supported by people outside.
Having people inside the building actively trying to overthrow a clean and fair election by violent means is an insurrection, not just a run of the mill riot (so to speak).

[RiverDog]

I think it can be said that some or maybe most of those that entered the building did so in the hopes of changing the election results and maybe harming Members of Congress as an added bonus.
Those that stayed outside may have had the same feelings of this being a patriotic act but were unwilling to take the next step. It seems that many have been brainwashed (for a lack of a better
term) into thinking that they would be some kind of hero if they were able to re-instate Trump as President and that they were challenging rigged election results. So, there were some that were
there to create havoc, but those inside were probably insurrectionists supported by people outside.
Having people inside the building actively trying to overthrow a clean and fair election by violent means is an insurrection, not just a run of the mill riot (so to speak).

I'm sure there were some that suffered from that delusion, but more than half? That's a huge assumption. I haven't heard any interviews or testimony from any of the participants that spoke to their motivation, but even if your assumption were correct, it failed, so if we want to get technical it wasn't an insurrection, it was only an attempted insurrection.

But I do agree that it is quite different in character than your 'run of the mill' riots and that some sort of adjective or distinction is appropriate in order to differentiate it from other 'civil disturbances' so I don't object to the insurrection label being applied.

[Aseahawkfan]

What the hell are you talking about me trivializing the protests . I’m saying any linkage or comparison to an attempted coup is wrong and the Trumpanzee bases talking point and as such I refuse to accept it. Thread is titled capitol riot investigation . The riots were bad, made far worse and extended by trumps and his skin head folowers . I can’t understand why the people weren’t prosecuted more fully but again, cops many of whom are indeed racist bigoted abusive corrupt cops use it to their advantage too. Not most but many . Way less then the 99.9% good cops crowd wants to say. You seem to minimize George Floyd .

It is only wrong in your mind. To the people who participated, they were doing what they thought was right. Republicans are selling it very diffrently.

The bigger problem in the nation is conservatives/Republicans/right wingers, whatever you want to refer to them as feeling the nation is lost to a sufficient measure that they are growing increasingly willing to buy into crazy and push further and further to be heard and exercise their beliefs.

Telling them their wrong why they ready to rip this nation apart to be heard is about as useful as telling people they were wrong for being enraged by George Floyd's murder because most cops aren't like Chauvin. It doesn't work. They feel the way they feel. They are not being heard and being made fun of by people like you and c-hawkbob and pushed further and further to the fringes of electing people like Trump because of it.

If you guys want to keep making fun of them for their beliefs, trivializing what they believe, and forcing them into echo chambers, I guess have at it.

On the flip side, best be ready to arm up because that path is one to violent revolution. Polarizing, ridiculing, and pushing these people to the point where they feel they have no choice to violently rebel is like what happened in the original American revolution where the tyranny level wasn't nearly as serious as other nations, but a large group of prominent citizens with power and a voice felt they weren't being heard by the crown decided to take up arms on their behalf and start something new.

I see more and more polarization, ridicule, and attack going back and forth with neither side seeing the bad behavior by their own group. Just constant dismissal of the other side's concerns and defense of bad behavior.

You very much can see that the George Floyd protests were mostly peaceful, reasonable, and warranted, while at the same time acknowledging that just like every time these protests happen a bunch of people that couldn't give a flying crap about Floyd hopped on to push other agendas and some rode along to engage in criminal behavior hiding with the protesters. No one that did these types of things should be defended. They were engaging in rotten behavior using the protests as an excuse and a cover for their rotten behavior. The hammer should fall on the people that did this hard. Same as the hammer should fall hard on the rioters at the Capitol who were trying to overturn a legally sanctioned presidential election.

Rotten criminal behavior should be hammered regardless of where.

As far as the Capitol Riots, they were just riots unless I see them find some organizer other than the allusions to Trump that pushed it. Real coups or insurrections need a true ringleader with money backing them such as what occurred recently in Haiti where the president was murdered by a coordinated attack paid for by a political opponent with the intent of taking over the country. It wasn't a bunch of rioters spun up by a lie acting in an uncoordinated manner with idiots within the group like the QAnon shaman or the morons who took selfies. That is not a coordinated group. Haiti was a coordinated assassination attempt and a coup. The Capitol Riots were riots with no leader and no real focus or a whole lot more damage would have been done.

It's obvious that a lot of people hate Joe Biden now. There is some chant going around where "F Joe Biden" is replace by "Let's go Brandon" from some NASCAR race. Not sure exactly. You might have hard more than I have as this is from some buddies and I just don't care about Joe Biden. But it does leave me feeling that 2024 is going to be a real fight and a big mess.

[RiverDog]

Pay attention to the Virginia Governor's race. It's a state that Biden won by 10% in 2020 and should be safely in the Democrats' column but it's currently a toss up. The R candidate is distancing himself somewhat from Trump but he's still using the same talk in an effort to appeal to Trump's core. If the R's win that race, it's a bad omen for things to come for the Dems in the midterms and could provide a blueprint for other R candidates to follow in 2022.

I don't know, nor do I have confidence in what anyone else claims to know, what the 2024 election will look like. As ASF pointed out, the Trump base hasn't gone away. I'm seeing plenty of "F-Biden" flags, Trump 2024 posters, and so on. The radical right hasn't gone anywhere, which is why you see otherwise reasonable R's like their candidate in the VA governor's race, if not embracing Trumpism, certainly is not disavowing it. However, the last election was held in the middle of a pandemic, and IMO it had a lot to do with both the BLM protests/riots and the Capitol riot/insurrection.

[Hawktawk]

Pay attention to the Virginia Governor's race. It's a state that Biden won by 10% in 2020 and should be safely in the Democrats' column but it's currently a toss up. The R candidate is distancing himself somewhat from Trump but he's still using the same talk in an effort to appeal to Trump's core. If the R's win that race, it's a bad omen for things to come for the Dems in the midterms and could provide a blueprint for other R candidates to follow in 2022.

I don't know, nor do I have confidence in what anyone else claims to know, what the 2024 election will look like. As ASF pointed out, the Trump base hasn't gone away. I'm seeing plenty of "F-Biden" flags, Trump 2024 posters, and so on. The radical right hasn't gone anywhere, which is why you see otherwise reasonable R's like their candidate in the VA governor's race, if not embracing Trumpism, certainly is not disavowing it. However, the last election was held in the middle of a pandemic, and IMO it had a lot to do with both the BLM protests/riots and the Capitol20 riot/insurrection.

This has been an interesting race for sure . Both candidates did their best to hold their top of ticket at arms length although mccauliffe eventually brought in sleepy Joe to talk about Trump the threat to America , we not his agenda . Both men are unpopular in Virginia with Biden tanking among independents but those same independents saying Trumps endorsement would make them less likely to support the GOP candidate . Dems are leading in early voting but they were millions ahead in Florida in 20 so who knows. If it’s a referendum on Biden so far Dems are in deep trouble . If they can tie the opponent to Trump they can win. I see no realistic scenario for democrats in the midterms other than bat shart crazy Cheeto mucking it up.

[Hawktawk]

There have been significant developments reported over the last few days . The revelation that Jan 6 organizers were using untraceable burner phones to communicate with trumps team in the days leading up
To the riot . Also reported that when it was clear Mike Pence wasn’t going to break the law Trump was frantically calling his allies including his attorneys desperate to find some way to stop the certification . The consensus was to pressure lawmakers into delaying the vote .
The most significant development by far is news that then Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has begun cooperating with the investigation. He had been refusing based on trumps claim of executive privilege . Trump is sueing to block release of all notes but my guess is the chief of staff is the mother lode . This was a flat out attempted coup. Trump should be in prison for a long time .

[RiverDog]

There have been significant developments reported over the last few days . The revelation that Jan 6 organizers were using untraceable burner phones to communicate with trumps team in the days leading up
To the riot . Also reported that when it was clear Mike Pence wasn’t going to break the law Trump was frantically calling his allies including his attorneys desperate to find some way to stop the certification . The consensus was to pressure lawmakers into delaying the vote .
The most significant development by far is news that then Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has begun cooperating with the investigation. He had been refusing based on trumps claim of executive privilege . Trump is sueing to block release of all notes but my guess is the chief of staff is the mother lode . This was a flat out attempted coup. Trump should be in prison for a long time .

I saw all that news. It will be interesting to see where it leads.