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And deservedly so.

A New York court has suspended President Donald Trump's most prominent attorney, former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, from the practice of law in that state over Giuliani's claims of rampant fraud during the 2020 presidential election.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... cid=msnews

The downfall of Rudy is one of the more depressing episodes of the Trump presidency. I used to really like him when he was the mayor of NYC, especially the way he handled the response to 9/11. I don't know what kind of trance Trump put on him that would cause him to behave in the manner that he did over the past 4 years or so.

Rudy became Grima Wormtongue. Still not sure why he debased himself this way for a crazy guy like Trump. Weird to watch so many people throw away their minds with Trump.

Another reason why I'll never agree that Trump doesn't have immense charisma and power in his voice and speaking ability. He has commanded loyalty from people that I never expected he would and led them down a path of madness, complete hypocrisy, and cognitive dissonance. You cannot do such a thing if you don't have massive charisma and speaking ability. He led millions of people to believe in election fraud on his word alone. He caused his followers to march on the capitol, something we hadn't seen in over a hundred years along with this pandemic.

The worst thing to have in office as a president is a man with immense charisma and speaking ability, but a narcissistic superiority complex where he believes only his way is the right way and is able to get millions to believe his madness.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Rudy became Grima Wormtongue. Still not sure why he debased himself this way for a crazy guy like Trump. Weird to watch so many people throw away their minds with Trump.

Another reason why I'll never agree that Trump doesn't have immense charisma and power in his voice and speaking ability. He has commanded loyalty from people that I never expected he would and led them down a path of madness, complete hypocrisy, and cognitive dissonance. You cannot do such a thing if you don't have massive charisma and speaking ability. He led millions of people to believe in election fraud on his word alone. He caused his followers to march on the capitol, something we hadn't seen in over a hundred years along with this pandemic.

The worst thing to have in office as a president is a man with immense charisma and speaking ability, but a narcissistic superiority complex where he believes only his way is the right way and is able to get millions to believe his madness.

I'm not sure if Trump's charisma explains Rudy's transformation. I can see it influencing someone like Matt Gaetz, but not a 77 year old, well educated and very accomplished attorney and politician. Something else must have happened to him, brain trauma or something.

It will be interesting to see if any other attorneys that were filing all these lawsuits over the election without offering any evidence are disciplined. It will also be interesting to see of the Dominion Voting Machines lawsuit gets anywhere.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Rudy became Grima Wormtongue.

I don't think that's a completely accurate analogy even though I just love the reference! While Rudy sure took took on that appearance, Grima had control over King Théoden whereas Rudy had no control over Trump, in at least the control aspect of the analogy their roles were reversed.

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't think that's a completely accurate analogy even though I just love the reference! While Rudy sure took took on that appearance, Grima had control over King Théoden whereas Rudy had no control over Trump, in at least the control aspect of the analogy their roles were reversed.

Trump was Saruman with the Voice, preaching lies and corrupting people trying to push them the way he wanted them to go. Saruman did a lot of evil with just his voice, not much else.

RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure if Trump's charisma explains Rudy's transformation. I can see it influencing someone like Matt Gaetz, but not a 77 year old, well educated and very accomplished attorney and politician. Something else must have happened to him, brain trauma or something.

It will be interesting to see if any other attorneys that were filing all these lawsuits over the election without offering any evidence are disciplined. It will also be interesting to see of the Dominion Voting Machines lawsuit gets anywhere.

Why wouldn't it? I doubt Rudy would debase himself this way unless the leader he was following and protecting straight into the gutter had some control over his mind. Every time Trump wanted him to, Rudy would go on TV and make some comments in support of his master often looking like a total idiot and liar.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Why wouldn't it? I doubt Rudy would debase himself this way unless the leader he was following and protecting straight into the gutter had some control over his mind. Every time Trump wanted him to, Rudy would go on TV and make some comments in support of his master often looking like a total idiot and liar.

I agree that Trump had Giuliani wrapped around his little finger and that he made stupid, idiotic statements at his behest, but why? It's hard for me to believe that it's all due to the psychological influence of a single, charismatic figure. Giuliani appeared to me to be mentally stronger than that. Most people that fall under that kind of influence, religious or otherwise, have something else going on, whether it be substance abuse, some type of traumatic event like rape, is insecure, or has a history of mental illness. One of my former neighbors falls into that category. She's 68 years old, went through a divorce, had to sell her house, and is now in a mental crisis center. Huge Trump supporter, anti vaxxer, extremely religious, claims to have had conversations with dead people, etc. That's the type of person I think that can be influenced by Trump, not someone like Giuliani who was once a tough as nails prosecutor.

Remember Jim Jones and the People's Temple, aka Jonestown? That's what these people that have fallen into Trump's orbit reminds me of, people with minds that are already subject to manipulation. Jim Jones was offering people that were already "on the bubble" an alternate lifestyle, told them what they wanted to hear, and they literally bellied up to the Kool-Aid stand. Giuliani doesn't fit that pattern.

Here is a man in Rudy G. that has had a very long and dignified career in both the legal profession as well as in politics and suddenly he's licking the boots of a man that is such a moron that he thinks that Paris is in Germany and that the Mexican border extends to Colorado? I think that there has to be something more than a person's charisma that drives them into someone else's world hook, line, and sinker.

RiverDog wrote:I agree that Trump had Giuliani wrapped around his little finger and that he made stupid, idiotic statements at his behest, but why? It's hard for me to believe that it's all due to the psychological influence of a single, charismatic figure. Giuliani appeared to me to be mentally stronger than that. Most people that fall under that kind of influence, religious or otherwise, have something else going on, whether it be substance abuse, some type of traumatic event like rape, is insecure, or has a history of mental illness. One of my former neighbors falls into that category. She's 68 years old, went through a divorce, had to sell her house, and is now in a mental crisis center. Huge Trump supporter, anti vaxxer, extremely religious, claims to have had conversations with dead people, etc. That's the type of person I think that can be influenced by Trump, not someone like Giuliani who was once a tough as nails prosecutor.

Remember Jim Jones and the People's Temple, aka Jonestown? That's what these people that have fallen into Trump's orbit reminds me of, people with minds that are already subject to manipulation. Jim Jones was offering people that were already "on the bubble" an alternate lifestyle, told them what they wanted to hear, and they literally bellied up to the Kool-Aid stand. Giuliani doesn't fit that pattern.

Here is a man in Rudy G. that has had a very long and dignified career in both the legal profession as well as in politics and suddenly he's licking the boots of a man that is such a moron that he thinks that Paris is in Germany and that the Mexican border extends to Colorado? I think that there has to be something more than a person's charisma that drives them into someone else's world hook, line, and sinker.

I've never seen so many people including Rudy debase themselves for one individual. I don't know what Trump did, but he has some weird power to twist hearts and minds. Some if it can be accounted for by manipulating their hate for Democrats, but some of it is just straight weird. I would never tolerate it, but it's hard to explain why a guy like Rudy who was the Mayor of New York, who prosecuted The Mafia, who cleaned up Times Square has become the sycophantic attorney of Donald Trump and even gone on TV to debase himself. It's crazy.

I would like to see if Trump could meet Hawktawk or C-bob in person, we see them go into his office, suddenly they come out a few hours later praising him. It's like he has strange almost mind control like powers.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I've never seen so many people including Rudy debase themselves for one individual. I don't know what Trump did, but he has some weird power to twist hearts and minds. Some if it can be accounted for by manipulating their hate for Democrats, but some of it is just straight weird. I would never tolerate it, but it's hard to explain why a guy like Rudy who was the Mayor of New York, who prosecuted The Mafia, who cleaned up Times Square has become the sycophantic attorney of Donald Trump and even gone on TV to debase himself. It's crazy.

A lot of people that he's converted I can understand, although I'm surprised at the numbers of them. The politicians like Gaetz and Greene have something to gain for themselves and are relatively young. The older, more powerful ones like McConnell and Graham, have their limits and wouldn't sacrifice their seats or their careers for him and are tied to him mostly because of Trump's base. Rudy doesn't fit into either of those categories. He doesn't need Trump for his political support or to advance his career. He is by far the strangest of Trump's converts, the one that's hardest to explain or understand.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I would like to see if Trump could meet Hawktawk or C-bob in person, we see them go into his office, suddenly they come out a few hours later praising him. It's like he has strange almost mind control like powers.

Those two don't have minds that can be manipulated or need Trump's help to advance their careers, so I think the odds of that happening are pretty remote. There isn't any in between when it comes to Donald Trump.

I really wish that Idahawkman hadn't bailed. He's an intelligent person and I'm wondering if he's still as committed to Trump as he was in the first 3 years of his presidency.

Those two don't have minds that can be manipulated or need Trump's help to advance their careers, so I think the odds of that happening are pretty remote. There isn't any in between when it comes to Donald Trump.

That's exactly it. He doesn't have some magic ability to melt people's minds or anything, he has a talent for controlling a narrative that suits the most malleable minds and the Q rating (a now surprisingly apt name for it) to make otherwise strong willed people willing to suck up to him to further their own ambitions. I am neither malleable nor ambitious, I'd tell him just what I thought of him if ever we met.

Those two don't have minds that can be manipulated or need Trump's help to advance their careers, so I think the odds of that happening are pretty remote. There isn't any in between when it comes to Donald Trump.

c_hawkbob wrote:That's exactly it. He doesn't have some magic ability to melt people's minds or anything, he has a talent for controlling a narrative that suits the most malleable minds and the Q rating (a now surprisingly apt name for it) to make otherwise strong willed people willing to suck up to him to further their own ambitions. I am neither malleable nor ambitious, I'd tell him just what I thought of him if ever we met.

We have to keep in mind the demographics of Trump's core: White males over 50 w/o a college diploma. Obviously not everyone that fits that description are part of Trump's core and I don't want to suggest that anyone w/o a degree is stupid, but it does mean that for the most part, people that aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, are unable to process information, don't do their homework, limit the information they get to a few, select sources, have more of reason to feel insecure and threatened by minorities and immigrants than those who are educated, are more susceptible to having their minds manipulated.

That's why Rudy Giuliani is such a conundrum. He's obviously a very smart and talented individual, or at least he used to be, and he has no personal need that only Trump can fill, so why over the past 4 or so years has he fallen into Trump's orbit? I still think that although Trump's charisma may be part of the equation, something else must have happened, perhaps something age related, like the onset of Alzheimer's or dementia.

I've heard so many different reasons from people who voted for Trump as to why they supported him, he seems to tap into whatever you seem to be looking for.

I can't even believe Gaetz still has his position. That is one slimy dude. It's always been surprising how many truly slimy people succeed in politics.

Rudy took it the farthest in support of Trump. Pretty nuts that he decided to drive the bus over himself at his age.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I've heard so many different reasons from people who voted for Trump as to why they supported him, he seems to tap into whatever you seem to be looking for.

I can't even believe Gaetz still has his position. That is one slimy dude. It's always been surprising how many truly slimy people succeed in politics.

Rudy took it the farthest in support of Trump. Pretty nuts that he decided to drive the bus over himself at his age.

The latest moonbat rumor is that SCOTUS will declare the election invalid and reinstate Trump as POTUS by the end of this summer. Trump supposedly believes in this scenario.

It seems that SCOTUS is the only institution that we can rely on. I've lost confidence in the political process to the point that I'd rather live in a monarchy than a democracy.

RiverDog wrote:The latest moonbat rumor is that SCOTUS will declare the election invalid and reinstate Trump as POTUS by the end of this summer. Trump supposedly believes in this scenario.

It seems that SCOTUS is the only institution that we can rely on. I've lost confidence in the political process to the point that I'd rather live in a monarchy than a democracy.

Not me. I've ready plenty on monarchies. It's way better to be in a looney Democracy where people have too much information and are going a little nuts, than to live in a monarchy where the king or queen can look down and decide you're an enemy of the state and kill you.

Imagine if this were a monarchy and Trump had taken over as king, would have been a hundred times worse.

One of the bigger problems at the moment I see is the politicization and ideologization of science, which has created two very bad states in a highly uneducated society: you have one portion that takes science as gospel and follows it without thought and those that are against science regardless of the soundness of the science.

Social science is far too invasive in policy. The hard sciences have been far too politicized. Right now as a politician you can find a scientist to back whatever play you want to do and to make it sound like it's the right play. The reason you can do this is because science is very manipulatable based on how you construct the study to support your supposition. Most Americans lack the capacity to determine is a study is a quality study where the evidence truly supports the supposition. So they either go with it or against depending on their beliefs engaging in confirmation bias. It's created a really toxic environment that has undermined the usefulness of science as a tool for governing.

We really, really need to improve our education system or we're going to end up in some kind of technocracy. If your people don't understand the tools you're using to govern, you have a real problem in a Democracy where the people are expected to govern.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Imagine if this were a monarchy and Trump had taken over as king, would have been a hundred times worse.

That's the problem with monarchies. It all depends on the ruling family. It's just that I've lost one helluva lot of faith in our electoral process.

Aseahawkfan wrote:One of the bigger problems at the moment I see is the politicization and ideologization of science, which has created two very bad states in a highly uneducated society: you have one portion that takes science as gospel and follows it without thought and those that are against science regardless of the soundness of the science.

Agreed. I'm so tired of this "follow the science" motto that I could throw up. In the beginning months of the pandemic, at a time when we were shutting down plants to do days long deep cleaning when there was a single confirmed Covid case because we weren't sure if the virus could spread on surfaces, Jay Inslee signed into law a plastic bag ban even though the science showed that they were far more sanitary and much less likely to spread disease than their preferred alternative, reusable cloth bags. The science didn't happen to align with his core beliefs, ie environmentalism, so he disregarded it in favor of one of his political pillars.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Social science is far too invasive in policy. The hard sciences have been far too politicized. Right now as a politician you can find a scientist to back whatever play you want to do and to make it sound like it's the right play. The reason you can do this is because science is very manipulatable based on how you construct the study to support your supposition. Most Americans lack the capacity to determine is a study is a quality study where the evidence truly supports the supposition. So they either go with it or against depending on their beliefs engaging in confirmation bias. It's created a really toxic environment that has undermined the usefulness of science as a tool for governing.

We really, really need to improve our education system or we're going to end up in some kind of technocracy. If your people don't understand the tools you're using to govern, you have a real problem in a Democracy where the people are expected to govern.

You're preaching to the choir! Collectively, we are a country of morons. That's why I would favor some type of competency test before a person is allowed to cast a vote. I hate being led by the ignorant masses.